Michael G. Smith
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Posts posted by Michael G. Smith
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I've been reading, Master of the Senate, the third book in Robert Caro's biography of LBJ and was curious to see that Bille sol Estes wasn't listed in the index although he certainly was dealing with LBJ during the time period that the book covers.
Another noteworthy omission in Caro's tome: no mention at all of Madeleine Brown, whom LBJ (according to Brown) was also "dealing with" in this time period. (At least one LBJ mistress is named in the book.)
I wanted to point this out, but don't mean to divert the thread from its subject. (Brown has been dealt with enough elsewhere.)
John, I haven't read the book, and i dont know who the "confessor' could be, but from all knowledge of the muders Ed Clark and LBJ were suppossedly involved in, it doesnt surprise me that there were more people involved in them other than Mac Wallace. With all of the underhanded things LBJ was involved in, just using the 1948 "Box 13" scandal as a starting point, he had alot of people to shut up. Mac Wallace was his most well know enforcer, but im sure there had to be others he had to use over the years to take care of his dirty work. Not to mention all of the other things Ed Clark was involved in. They basically controlled all of Texas, but im sure they had to "expand" to other areas of the country as well. Using others that they had the goods on, in one way or another, they could get these "others" to take care of all of their "problems". Kinser, Marshall, and even his own sister Josefa, were only just a few of the many people who were needed to be silenced. Powerful people such as LBJ and Clark, couldnt go through all of their underhanded political moves, without having certain people knowing what they were up to. While he was on his way up the political ladder, he surely couldnt afford to have someone come forward and expose him for what he truly was. The terrible fear he had of someone ruining what he had worked so hard for all of those years, wheather legally or underhandedly, would have caused him to do "anything" to prevent that from happening.
Any thoughts on his sister death?
thanks-smitty
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Terry - thanks for your replies. I don't think too many folks want to jump in here - Some folks may be reluctant to touch anything that has 'UFO' associated with it, thanks to the stigma that they have successfully created - [and now Hollywood has helped out by turning the Men in Black into witty buffoons - casually making use of campy mind erasing technology while performing a great service for their country - good guys - what a laugh] however, IMO this is a brilliant piece here.
Wish I had found this bit several years ago. Great summary. Need to find the full article.
http://beyondweird.com/ufos/Bruce_Walton_T...nvasion_42.html
THE SECRET LIFE OF FRED L. CRISMAN, by veteran writer onfinancial conspiracy, Anthony L. Kimory. (The following is based on notes
taken from Kimory's article, as well as a few of my own comments and
observations thrown in. - Wol.): The article dealt with Fred Crisman's
connection with PROJECT PAPERCLIP -- a top-secret operation which brought
Nazi scientists into America as part of a program to duplicate Nazi flying
discs, and to develop other revolutionary technologies. This operation was
not actually carried out by the U.S. Constitutional government as we know
it, but by a branch of German (Bavarian) Intelligence which had INFILTRATED
American Intelligence with the help of fifth column secret society members
and Nazi sympathisers within American Intelligence agencies who helped to
form the CIA. Some years later this fascist cabal working within the CIA
took control of large segments of the U.S. government and intelligence
agencies through an internal fascist coup d'etat which involved the death
of President John Fitz- gerald Kennedy. From that point on the Congress
ceased to be the supreme ruling power in America, and the CIA-NSA-MJ12
"Military Industrial" [Nazi] government gained the upper hand... In recent
years however the original Constitutional-based government has been making
a come-back, with the help of the Navy Intelligence COM-12 agency and
American Patriots who are beginning to wake up to what really began
happening in this country from 1947 and onward. James Garrison, the
Louisiana attorney depicted by Kevin Costner in the movie 'JFK' [who
investigated the John F. Kennedy assassination reportedly discovered the
connection between Crisman and PAPERCLIP. The Paperclip Project sent elite
teams of scientists and investigators, known as 'T-Forces', into Europe to
confiscate all documents, files, hard- ware in German labs, and even
scientific personnel who were involved in the Nazi aerospace research, an
operation which led to the great European 'brain drain' following WWII.
That is, all of the 'brains' that were left in Germany following the
massive escape operation to Neu Schwabenland, Antarctica during the closing
months of the war... and those 'minds' who remained certainly weren't the
'cream' of the German- Austrian intellectual 'crop'. The plan was to
develop discoid antigravity- type aircraft similar to those which the Nazis
had experimented with. The Army, Navy, Army Air Force, CIA and OSS
reportedly assisted in the 'T-Forces' and 'Paperclip' Projects, according
to Kimory. Several high-ranking Nazis who assisted in the 'atrocities' were
brought to America also, and their crimes suppressed. Many of these worked
at the Peenemunde Aerodynamics Institute, which built the V-2 rockets,
German fighter jets, etc., using forced slave labor from the Karlshagen
concentration camp. Peenemunde scientists, under PROJECT PAPERCLIP,
according to Kimory, have secretly CONTROL- LED the U.S. rocketry,
aerospace and space projects for over 20 years, with the majority of those
at NASA being oblivious of the fact. Perhaps this explains the unreasonably
'bad luck' that NASA has experienced in its OVERT space program, not to
mention the fact that with all of the incredible technological advancements
that have been made since the cessation of the moon-shots of 1969-70, the
USA has not 'officially' carried out any further attempts at lunar
exploration. Then again, there are many sources who claim that NASA is 'for
public show' only, and that the REAL and COVERT space projects are being
run by these techno-fascists in the CIA and NSA behind-the-scenes, who are
making every effort to keep America in general from establishing a foothold
in space. Kimory claims that Wernher von Braun and Kurt Davis, heads of
Kennedy Space Center and Marshall Space Flight Center, were both active
Nazi S.S. agents even after they were brought into America with the help of
Nazi infiltrators and sympathizers in U.S. Intelligence. James Garrison had
arrested Clay Shaw on conspiracy to murder JFK, linking him with the CIA.
However, when Garrison's star witness David Ferrie was found dead only a
few days before Clay Shaw's trial, Garrison did not have enough against
Shaw to make a conviction. It was later discovered in a FOIA document in
1977 that Clay Shaw HAD BEEN in the CIA since 1949. Garrison also linked
Fred L. Crisman to Clay Shaw, and in fact sources indicate that Crisman was
the first one Clay Shaw called when Shaw learned that he was in trouble. Is
was discovered that Shaw was in business with European NAZIS and FASCISTS
who were involved in covert operations sponsored by the CIA, according to
the article. Shaw was also allegedly tied-in with the O.S.S. Crisman, who
worked as a go-between in the Military-Industrial establishment (especially
the aerospace companies which were the major beneficiaries of Project
Paperclip) was believed by Garrison to be a 'middle man' within a
deep-level intelligence network, working in- between those who gave the
orders (which included assassinations) and those who carried them out.
Garrison also believed that Crisman was involved with the men who carried
out the JFK assassination, and Crisman had also made several trips to
Dallas just prior to JFK's death, which is why Garrison subpoenaed him.
Crisman was also involved with a government program to 'help gypsies', was
tied-in with the O.S.S., and was a member of a secret fraternity of former
Intelligence officers, and was also involved with organized crime,
according to Garrison's investigations. Of course the strangest aspect of
the Crisman connection was that it was Fred L. Crisman himself who handed
over 'metal-slag' samples that were reportedly found after a 'UFO' [one of
six 'donut- shaped' vehicles observed -- remember, the Nazis had developed
jet-turbine engines that were 'donut-shaped' in configuration rather than
cylindrical] dropped the substance over the Maurey Island area near Tacoma,
Washington in 1947, killing a dog and injuring one person who was on a boat
in Tacoma harbor in the process. Crisman handed the samples to two Army G-2
Intelligence officers, Capt. William L. Davidson and Lt. Frank M. Brown. On
their way to Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio (where several German
Peenemunde scientists reportedly worked) with the 'classified' material,
their plane crashed and both were killed. News reports of the time
mentioned that the plane MAY have been sabotaged. Frank Brown's widow did
in fact state her conviction that her husband was murdered. In addition to
this, a particularly persistent reporter into the Maurey Island episode
died shortly after the investigation, and Kenneth Arnold (who had his Mt.
Rainier sighting and almost fatal engine failure only a few days later)
reported that his room, where he often discussed the Maurey Island case
with United Airlines Captain E. J. Smith, had been bugged. Kimory suggests
that the Maurey Island UFO may have been a 'hybrid' of the Nazi UFO designs
developed by the Military-Industrial Establishment and PROJECT PAPERCLIP,
which might explain the mystery. [For more information on 'Project
Paperclip', see also: SECRET AGENDA, by Linda Hunt. St. Martins Press.
1991]. * * * * * * *
*****************************************************
"that the REAL and COVERT space projects are being
run by these techno-fascists in the CIA and NSA behind-the-scenes, who are
making every effort to keep America in general from establishing a foothold
in space. Kimory claims that Wernher von Braun and Kurt Davis, heads of
Kennedy Space Center and Marshall Space Flight Center, were both active
Nazi S.S. agents even after they were brought into America with the help of
Nazi infiltrators and sympathizers in U.S. Intelligence. James Garrison had
arrested Clay Shaw on conspiracy to murder JFK, linking him with the CIA.
However, when Garrison's star witness David Ferrie was found dead only a
few days before Clay Shaw's trial, Garrison did not have enough against
Shaw to make a conviction. It was later discovered in a FOIA document in
1977 that Clay Shaw HAD BEEN in the CIA since 1949. Garrison also linked
Fred L. Crisman to Clay Shaw, and in fact sources indicate that Crisman was
the first one Clay Shaw called when Shaw learned that he was in trouble. Is
was discovered that Shaw was in business with European NAZIS and FASCISTS
who were involved in covert operations sponsored by the CIA, according to
the article. Shaw was also allegedly tied-in with the O.S.S. Crisman, who
worked as a go-between in the Military-Industrial establishment (especially
the aerospace companies which were the major beneficiaries of Project
Paperclip) was believed by Garrison to be a 'middle man' within a
deep-level intelligence network, working in- between those who gave the
orders (which included assassinations) and those who carried them out.
Garrison also believed that Crisman was involved with the men who carried
out the JFK assassination, and Crisman had also made several trips to
Dallas just prior to JFK's death, which is why Garrison subpoenaed him.
Crisman was also involved with a government program to 'help gypsies', was
tied-in with the O.S.S., and was a member of a secret fraternity of former
Intelligence officers, and was also involved with organized crime,
according to Garrison's investigations. Of course the strangest aspect of
the Crisman connection was that it was Fred L. Crisman himself who handed
over 'metal-slag' samples that were reportedly found after a 'UFO' [one of
six 'donut- shaped' vehicles observed -- remember, the Nazis had developed
jet-turbine engines that were 'donut-shaped' in configuration rather than
cylindrical] dropped the substance over the Maurey Island area near Tacoma,
Washington in 1947, killing a dog and injuring one person who was on a boat
in Tacoma harbor in the process. Crisman handed the samples to two Army G-2
Intelligence officers, Capt. William L. Davidson and Lt. Frank M. Brown. On
their way to Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio (where several German
Peenemunde scientists reportedly worked) with the 'classified' material,
their plane crashed and both were killed. News reports of the time
mentioned that the plane MAY have been sabotaged. Frank Brown's widow did
in fact state her conviction that her husband was murdered. In addition to
this, a particularly persistent reporter into the Maurey Island episode
died shortly after the investigation, and Kenneth Arnold (who had his Mt.
Rainier sighting and almost fatal engine failure only a few days later)
reported that his room, where he often discussed the Maurey Island case
with United Airlines Captain E. J. Smith, had been bugged. Kimory suggests
that the Maurey Island UFO may have been a 'hybrid' of the Nazi UFO designs
developed by the Military-Industrial Establishment and PROJECT PAPERCLIP,
which might explain the mystery. [For more information on 'Project
Paperclip', see also: SECRET AGENDA, by Linda Hunt. St. Martins Press.
1991]. * * * * * * *"
Thanks for that piece of info, Lee. It never ceases to amaze me as to what kind of snakes and serpents always manage to wriggle their venomous way into the heart of our seats of gov. These bastards may be of the highest caliber with respect to intellect, based upon their supposedly pure Aryan blood lines, but from what I've studied in the realm of genetics and inherited characteristics is this. The purer you attempt to narrow the gene pool in an effort to create a master race, or to isolate a perfect trait for perpetuity, the more at risk you become in creating an anomaly, or freak-ish, if not downright flawed aberration, be it an Idiot Savant, or a Tay-Sachs syndrome, to name a couple of the more milder variety, or even Sickle Cell anemia, to bring the analogy into a more familiar perspective. In any event, this how I've come to view the people associated with that philosophical mindset. They may be highly intelligent, rich, powerful, yet they're also dangerously monstrous, in their mendacious lust for power and control. But, they're also to viewed as psychotically deranged "bad seeds," in need of eradication, harsh as that may sound, but more likely along the lines of institutionalization, preferably in high security lock-down facilities. As you can readily understand my abhorrance of these super-intellectually psychotic individuals as witnessed by their total disregard for anything that doesn't conform to their twisted image of "white" perfection. Strength of the human race can only be assured by the process of natural selection, or survival of the fittest, incorporating a variety of racially mixed bloodlines. This is definitely not accomplished by isolating one particular gene pool from the rest under the mistaken notion of creating a super, pure race. Just witness any pure-bred animal show, or the crowned royalty of Europe. You may get the desired results, but you'll also get the undesirable abberrations, as well. And, that is not an experiment that bodes well when it comes to trying to refine the human race, simply because some half-witted in-bred says so. But, that's just MHO.
Terry, You are so right, concerning genetics. I breed Dobermans with my son. I have done alot of research on breeding. Alot of breeders will only "line" breed. Meaning, once they reach their desired results in their dogs, they only breed within that family. Son/Daughter, Brother/Sister, Mother/Son, etc, etc....That is something i would suggest staying away from completely. Genetic problems, health issues, temperment problems, are just a few problems encountered. They will argue until blue in the face about the benefits. You may end up with a genetic lookalike, but will they turn on you and kill your kid?? FWIW anyway.
thanks--smitty
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This ladder was rushed into the TSBD after the shooting. Anyone happen to know why? Was it so police could search up and over stacks of boxes? Ceilings? I couldn't find anything in testimony and I was curious why a ladder was needed.
** Got my answer from Gary Mack - the top floor was inaccessible without the ladder.
I saw this a few day's ago on a website entitled - JFK Assassination: The British Connection By Mike Royden.
44. British mark on Oswald's gun? Letter Frewin to John Rudd. On 22 November 1963, a British revolver was found in paper bag on roof of TSBD.See: Summers latest Vanity Fair article. Don't have at present I am sure there is a reference to it. Also some FBI?documents have been released about it. Irrelevant take out.
Although Royden offers the disclaimer that, he has not had the time to check out all the 'blurbs' listed on the page, [plus, I have no idea how old the info cited is, mid 1990's?] I thought I would include the above, has anyone else heard of the above item? A revolver being placed on the roof of the TSBD if true, would explain the need and use of a ladder, would it not?
Bob, I never heard of a "pistol" being found on the roof, but i have been trying to find out about the "rifle" found on the roof. I saw pictures of it being checked by DPD that was filmed by Erie Mentesana. Definately not the M/C. No sling or scope. I dont know if they would need a ladder to access the roof or not, i would think that there would be a roof access from inside. [steps and door or hatch] Plus i believe there was a fire escape on the Houston St. side or in back. they may have needed it for reaching storage shelves mounted on the wall or suspended from the ceilings if they had any. I was never on the top floor of the TSBD so its just a guess. Hope this helps.
thanks--smitty
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Interesting conversation gents.....and the cop does seem less visible when in the shadows....and I think your simulation is great Ashton, but remember that the eye looking toward the fence had lots of cars and other things to deal with too. Anyone there might not have known there was someone in the tower who might see them, or they might have and taken some simple actions to camoflage their movements...or divert attention.
Nag, nag, nag.
Alllllllll right! Sheesh! Just for you, Peter.Since there's no record I know of showing exactly what vehicles were where at the relevant time (and you didn't supply any reference), I've used some arial shots from as close to the time of the assassination as I can determine, and put in just some of the vehicles (all copies of the same one, really) that I feel would be most applicable (if applicable at all) to your point. I also have textured the parking lot area to more closely approximate the dirt/mud lot it was, in place of the darker asphalt I had there before.
So here it is, best that I can do to accommodate you for now. I've left the friendly neighborhood cop standing by the fence about where "Badge Man" supposedly was, and this is a somewhat wider-angle shot than before, I think, but it'll do. The first image is using the "generic" ambient light of the modeler without sunlight/shadows, then with sunlight/shadows set for 22 November at 12:29 p.m.:
Nobody ever even seems to consider that the automobiles in the parking lot would be every bit as much as a deterent to any would-be assassin as they might be some kind of "concealment," because there is absolutely no guarantee at all that someone with a car parked there might not decide to drive their car somewhere during lunch. (Never mind a watch tower overlooking the entire lot that's probably manned 24/7 for track switching.) The whole thing is simply preposterous.
So I know not what course others may take, but as for me, I am done chasing down bottomless rabbit holes after "Badge Man" and "Black Dog Man." Ya'll go on without me. Don't forget to take a lunch.
Ashton
Great thread.........continues! A couple of things. Discussing about who was behind the fence, and where. I have always thought, but i have never heard it mentioned was, that if someone had "backed" a car up to the fence and opened the trunk, some one could have [note i said "could have"] shot from an opened trunk. They would have had "cover" from Bowers direction, elevated position to shot over the fence, and when they were done, they could pull the trunk lid down, and they were hidden. From what i recall, no one ever checked the trunks of any cars that day. Maybe they did, but i dont recall anyone mentioning it. Its just a thought FWIW. Also, keeping up on this thread, i havent heard anybody mention anything about Ed Hoffmans testimony about what he saw. You can take what he stated FWIW, but he is worth mentioning. You can read about him in detail in "Crossfire" from page 81 to 85. He went into some detail in his testimony that alot of people would not have known about, so it may seem credible. Just thought i would add my 2 cents worth!
thanks-smitty
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Ashton,
Julia Ann Mercer, a 23 yo Dallas resident, was driving a rented Valiant on Elm Street early on November 22. She noticed a truck parked on the right hand side of the road, half up on the curb, protruding into the street and partially blocking traffic. It was a green Ford pickup with the words 'air conditioning' in black on the driver's side. From Mark Lane's Rush To Judgement (pp29-31):
Miss Mercer saw a heavy set middle aged man in a green jacket 'slouched over the wheel' of the truck while the other man 'reached over the tailgate' and took out from the truck what appeared to be a gun case.....The man then 'proceeded to walk away from the truck and as he did, the small end of the case caught in the grass or sidewalk and he reached down to free it. He then proceeded to walk across the grass and up the grassy hill which forms part of the overpass'.
Miss Mercer was able to give a rather detailed description of that man. He was 'a white male, late 20's or early 30's, and he was wearing a grey jacket, brown pants and plaid shirt'
Mercer submitted an affidavit for the Dallas Sheriff's office on November 22 but was not called to testify before the WC. Interestingly, her description fits that given by Lee Bowers of the two men he saw standing near the fence just before the shots were fired. He described one as 'middle aged' and 'fairly heavy-set' and the other as 'about midtwenties in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket'.
It should be noted that Mercer also stated that there were three policemen standing on the bridge overlooking the truck while she was there. All this might indicate that a murder weapon was being delivered, although the gun case may have been empty. IMO, it doesn't necessarily preclude the possibility that the two men were part of a diversion which was implanted, at least partially, under the watchful eye of the DPD.
Hi Mark,
I've been trying to find a space in the posting sequence to thank you for bringing me up to speed on the Mercer incident. What I find most striking about it is how utterly pedestrian (I don't find puns; puns find me) it all is—except, of course, for the dramatic description (after the fact of a shooting, dontcha' know) of "what appeared to be a gun case" by someone who, as far as I know, wouldn't know a gun case from a fingernail file case.
As Lane points out, the testimony by both Mercer and Bowers about "two men" is consistent, and taken together is all very consistent (allowing for them taking their jackets off as the day warmed up) with two men doing some kind of work they needed to do—under the watchful eye of policemen—then moving their truck and hanging around to see the President go by—still under the watchful eye of policemen who probably had been watching them the whole time.
I find an endless source of entertainment in the way various threads seem to bring themselves together, because I've just now suffered through Cliff Varnell's most recent torturous twisting of Bowers's testimony about "two men" into something utterly unrecognizable in order to support an unsupportable position, consistently ignoring the most crucial facts in Bowers's actual statements. Like, f'r'instance (my bold emphasis added):
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MR. BALL: Now, were there any people standing on the high side-- high ground between your tower and where Elm Street goes down under the underpass toward the mouth of the underpass?
MR. BOWERS: Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about mid-twenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket. ...On the triple underpass, there were two policemen. One facing each direction, both east and west. There was one railroad employee, a signal man there with the Union Terminal Co., and two welders that worked for the Fort Worth Welding firm, and there was also a laborer's assistant furnished by the railroad to these welders.
MR. BALL: You saw those before the President came by, you saw those people?
MR. BOWERS: Yes; they were there before and after.
This is at least an approximation of what Bowers described about the two men at issue and at least one of the policemen at that end of the overpass:
Oooo. Sinister. (By the way, my 2D people placed in a 3D model always "face the camera" as a feature of the software, so please don't anybody rush to tell me they are looking in the wrong direction. For these purposes, it's entirely immaterial.)
Varnell would have us believe that one or both of these men, in a flash, transmuted into their alter-egos, "Black Dog Man" and "Badge Man" (don't ask me where Badge Man's trusty sidekick and spotter, Hard-Hat Man materialized from, or how Badge Man got a badge—I simply don't know), dashed 120' down the length of the fence (in mud, you betcha'), got a gun or guns from somewhere unknown, shot the President of the United States (at least twice), crumbled the gun(s) into magic dust (creating a puff of smoke, of course), then ran back the 120' (in mud, you betcha') to be standin' around whistling innocently the next time Bowers thought to glance over there again. (Gotta' watch them spooks every minute!)
You know, I'm just a simple guy from simple roots, and somehow it sounds a lot more to me like these were working stiffs—possibly connected in some way with the welding job that had to get done, President or no president, possibly not—who had delivered some stuff to that area (seen by Ms. Mercer) and had hung around near the cops stationed there to see the Prez go by. And after Ms. Mercer heard the President had been shot, she decided those musta' been gun bags they wuz totin'.
Meanwhile, as the Warren Commission (and others) drone on and on about complete dead-end nonsense, over at the other side of the ranch, almost utterly ignored:
We have a team that has just been briefed by the CIA's worst and dirtiest, accommodatingly flown in by Tosh Plumlee and friends, that packs unnamed Cubans and a celebrity Mafioso into Dealey Plaza and God know what else. Tosh Plumlee—who, as the Fates and Furies would have it, just happens to have spent a so-far-unrevealed amount of time with Lee Harvey Oswald in "intelligence training matters."
And I guess, for some reason (see Varnell above), I'm supposed to get all "Oooooooo! Ahhhhhhh!" about a couple of drudges hanging around, absolutely pinned between cops on the overpass and Bowers in the tower.
And some people wonder why I seem to take on a bit of an edge now and then. Well, they shouldn't wonder: it's either that, or pop a vein.
Ashton
LMAO! Gotta watch those veins Ashton! -smitty
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MR. BALL: Now, were there any people standing on the high side-- high ground between your tower and where Elm Street goes down under the underpass toward the mouth of the underpass?
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There is always one person that knows if a politician is involved in corrupt activities. Their personal secretary. Walter Jenkins played this role for LBJ. He took great care about appointing him. It is no surprise that he selected a secret homosexual for the task. This gave him complete power over Jenkins (along with his own involvement in corrupt activities).
Therefore, it is not surprising that the secretaries of Bobby Baker (Nancy Carole Tyler) and George Smathers (Mary Jo Kopechne) were killed in accidents.
I have always felt that JFK’s secretary, Evelyn Lincoln, would have important information on the assassination of JFK. She knew who he was meeting and how he was responding to those conversations. Maybe JFK told her directly what was going on in the months leading up to the assassination. After all, we all need to talk to someone. Who better than the person always by your side. Not that Lincoln would ever disclose any information that would knowingly hurt JFK. She was too loyal for that. However, she might have revealed information that would have hurt his enemies.
Lincoln also had access to the tapes of JFK telephone conversations. Immediately after the assassination these tapes were seized by RFK (with the help of Secret Service agent Robert L. Bouck). Afterwards RFK showed concern about Lincoln’s knowledge of JFK's activities. He suspected that she had taken papers that belonged to JFK. However, he was unable to prove it. He also seemed scared of Lincoln. Friends say that RFK was often highly critical of Lincoln behind her back but was unwilling to take her on in face to face situations. RFK was right to be suspicious of Lincoln. When she died in 1995, tapes of JFK’s conversations were found in her possession. These were of course handed over to the Kennedy family and it is not known what was on them.
I read Lincoln’s My Twelve Years With John F. Kennedy some time. Published in 1965, it provided no useful information for people researching the assassination. I was aware that she had written another book, Kennedy & Johnson (1968). However, after the disappointment of her first book, I decided not to bother to read this one.
Recently I became very interested in the reasons why JFK selected LBJ as his running mate. During this research I came across a reference that suggested this issue was discussed in Lincoln’s book, Kennedy and Johnson. Using Abe Books I managed to track down a copy of this book. It arrived yesterday. It indeed does contain a lot of information that relates to the assassination (although Lincoln never attempts to show these links and never discusses what took place in Dallas).
As the title suggests, the book discusses the relationship Kennedy had with Johnson. Lincoln, like all JFK’s other close associates, was shocked by JFK’s decision to select LBJ as his running mate. She claims that LBJ was never once considered in the months leading up to the decision as a possible vice presidential candidate. The main reason for this was that JFK hated LBJ. This isnot surprising considering LBJ’s attacks on JFK during the campaign. He was especially upset by LBJ’s dirty tricks campaign.
In the book Lincoln points out the role that Philip Graham played in these events (we know from Bobby Baker’s book Wheeling and Dealing that Graham had been having meetings with LBJ in an attempt to get him the VP job). Lincoln claims that Stuart Symington had been offered the job of VP (he accepted). The problem came when Graham’s newspaper Washington Post published a story on the day of his nomination that JFK had selected LBJ as VP. This story disturbed JFK. He thought that his announcement that Symington was his choice would humiliate LBJ. He knew LBJ was in a position to cause problems when he tried to introduce legislative measures. Therefore he decided to personally explain to LBJ why he had chosen Symington. The meeting took place at 10.00 the morning after the nomination. JFK returned from the meeting with the news that he had given the job to LBJ.
Lincoln points out that when Graham published his account of events he lied about some important aspects of the case. Graham was obviously involved in this plot to get LBJ as VP. Why? We will probably never know as he committed suicide, aged 48, a few weeks before JFK was assassinated.
Lincoln goes on to describe the relationship JFK had with LBJ. Lincoln recalls the first important meeting the two men had after the decision had been made. It took place in JFK’s home. She saw the meeting through the glass. She also had reason to enter the room several times. She was shocked by what went on. Lincoln claims that LBJ did almost all of the talking. He constantly wagged his finger at JFK as if he was telling him what to do. Lincoln reports that JFK was distressed after his meeting. In fact, LBJ nearly always had this impact on JFK. Especially in the early days of the presidency when LBJ played an active role in decision making.
Lincoln was surprised by the way LBJ was able to persuade JFK to appoint his friends to positions of power. Lincoln was particularly shocked by JFK willingness to appoint John Connally as Secretary of the Navy. She knew that JFK did not like or respect Connally. This was an important post as it made decisions about government arms contracts. When Connally left to become Governor of Texas, he was replaced by Fred Korth, another one of LBJ’s buddies. JFK in fact gave LBJ the right of veto to “all job appointments for Texans, in or out of the state”.
JFK’s major objective when becoming president was to deal with the power held by the important Congressional Committees. He was particularly concerned about the seniority rule. LBJ had used this rule to ensure that his men chaired all the important committees. In this way they were able to block all liberal legislation from being passed by Congress. JFK had come under considerable pressure from liberal senators in the North to tackle this problem.
JFK’s first task was to undermine the power of Howard W. Smith, the chairman of the House Rules Committee. In this post he held a stranglehold over all legislation. One possibility was to get rid of his right-hand man, William Colmer of Mississippi. LBJ and Sam Rayburn rejected this idea. Instead they suggested that the size of the committee should be increased from 12 to 15. This would enable them to get a committee that would allow more liberal legislation through. LBJ and Rayburn promised they would ensure that Democrats in the South would vote for this measure.
JFK agreed to this proposal but later discovered that LBJ and Rayburn were in fact lobbying against this plan. The only way JFK could get in through was to persuade Republicans to vote for this proposal. JFK won the vote by 217 to 212. All 64 democrats from the South and border states voted against the legislation. However, JFK won because he had persuaded 22 Republicans in the North to vote for the proposal.
JFK now knew that LBJ was unwilling to help him get his legislation passed. Therefore he isolated LBJ from decision making and made preparations to replace him in 1964.
Stories on JFK’s plans to dump LBJ emerged as early as 1962. At a press conference on 9th May, 1962, JFK was forced to deny this story. However, it was true. JFK had already selected his 1964 running mate. His choice was Terry Sanford. The two men had become very close during JFK election campaign. By 1963 they held similar views on all the major issues. JFK became convinced that Sandford was the one liberal from the South who could help him get progressive legislation through Congress.
The Bobby Baker scandal reinforced JFK’s plans to dump LBJ. JFK became aware that LBJ was blackmailing Republicans with threats that their G.O.P. tax returns would be audited. At a press conference on 14th November, 1963, JFK admitted that the Department of Justice had discovered a great deal about Bobby Baker and he promised that appropriate action would be taken against all those involved in this scandal. JFK of course knew that this involved LBJ and the chairman of all the important committees in Congress. What he did not know was that Bobby Baker had cleverly pulled JFK into this scandal (see my posting in the Suite 8F Group later today for information on this) and that the full truth would never emerge.
Lincoln is also very interesting about what she has to say about the trip to Texas. She says that JFK was very reluctant to go on this trip: “Advance reports from our own staff and from many other people gave us cause to worry about the tense climate in Texas – and, most especially, in Dallas. Dallas was removed and then put back on the planned itinerary several times. Our own advance man urged that the motorcade not take the route through the underpass and past the Book Depository, but he was overruled.”
Lincoln comments on a meeting that took place between JFK and Connally only three days before Bobby Baker resigned. The meeting was about Baker and the proposed trip to Texas. After Connally left JFK told Lincoln: “He sure seemed anxious for me to go to Texas”.
Yet another astounding thread. It looks like it, if believed, addresses the mysterious motorcade route change. It also makes Connelly look super suspicious, which begs the question "why the heck would he ride in the death car?"
And it raises good points about the value of secretaries in investigative matters.
Is there some reason that Evelyn Lincoln doesn't get more attention? Does she lack credibility? What John posted from her Kennedy & Johnson book are bombshells. It confirms so many suspicions.
So about that autopsy illustration--anyone know who did it and where it can be found?
Ms. Lincoln seemed to be a super lady. A true and loyal confidant. Johnson on the other hand, was nothing more than a low down skunk! Even after the "break" Kennedy gave him, he was sticking him in the back. He was one of the most despicable politicians ever elected to ANY position. By what i have read, Connally wasnt far behind, concerning Kennedy. It was mentioned about Brunos prior trip to Dallas for security checks for the "murdercade". Reading "Survivors Guilt", it goes into quite a bit of detail about all of the checks made, and by who. The amazing part is that most of the people involved with that, all came back with a positive attitude about the Dallas trip, with no real threats present! This was not long after the Stevenson incident! Amazing, to say the least. FWIW, 'Survivors Guilt" so far has been a very good read.
thanks-smitty
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As I've made clear, and will say again, I believe the only possible answer is that it was, in fact, a premeditated, carefully timed diversion.
President Kennedy's assassination was the work of magicians. It was a stage trick, complete with accessories and fake mirrors, and when the curtain fell, the actors, and even the scenery disappeared . . . the plotters were correct when they guessed that their crime would be concealed by shadows and silences, that it would be blamed on a 'madman' and negligence.'I don't buy it. The assassination was designed to look like a conspiracy.
They could hit JFK from that sweet spot behind the fence and if anybody
got too wise they had a patsy named Jack in custody.
Pure speculation, of course, but methinks if Oswald had been gunned
down on Friday afternoon two guys in particular would have been sweating
bullets -- Fidel Castro and Jack Lawrence.
I think Jackie boy blew chunks back at the auto dealership cuz he realized
he'd been set up. When Oswald was captured alive, the Castro-did-it scenario
was pretty much dead.
Plan B wasn't what the plotters had in mind.
Cliff, Can you elaborate a little on your thoughts about Jack Lawrence? How do you think he was involved? I have always thought that he was involved in some way in the assassination, although alot of people wont agree with that. [just my opinion] I might get laughed out of here with this thought but here goes. In looking at people involved in the assassination, i always try to see who is who and put faces on people. One thing that struck me a while ago was, that to me anyway, Jack Lawrence looked strikingly similar to the Umbrella Man. I havent come across many photos of him, but the one that John has listed in his JFK assassination site under "Conspirators" is a well know photo of him. If you look at that photo, with the sport coat, shirt, hair, nose, etc...... [to me anyway], he looks very much like him. I know it may sound far fetched, but i havent come across many other people who look like the UM that were supposedly in DP that day. All of the photos i have seen of the UM that day, all look similar to Mr. Lawrence. Ok, ok, everybody stop laughing. Lol! Dont laugh me out of here too quickly. I just got in here! I figured i would go out on a limb and post what i thought.
thanks--Smitty
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Ashton Gray
Thanks again Aston. Very cool image. I dont know how you do it! I guess there isnt too much you cant do with your program! Your going to have a waiting list pretty soon, with people waiting to see their theory put into your images! It really enables you to put theorys to work, and to actually see what may have, or could have happened. Thanks.
--smitty
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Here's a round-up of requested views. Determining a "correct" field of view for the virtual camera is pretty iffy, and I may need to lick this calf again, but I had a very little bit of time and wanted to try to accommodate some of the requests as well as I could in the circumstances. One of the circumstances, though, is that I've begun to populate the motorcade, and the 3D people are putting a significant strain on my system processing power now, so everything has gotten very slow to update, making critical positioning/pan/tilt/yaw painful in the extreme.
Here's what I could do, though, with the motorcade set up in a rough approximation of head-shot time:
FOR LEE FOREMAN—NEAR NORTH PERISTYLE STEPS
Lee I think that is very close to where you indicated. The problem that won't be overcome anytime soon, though, is the absence of spectators in this model.
DON'T KNOW FOR WHOM—SOUTH RAILWAY OVERPASS AND NEAR SOUTH PERGOLA
FOR SMITTY—SOME ROOF HOPPING
TSBD Roof:
Dal-Tex Roof:
I have another from the County Courts roof, but the forum software says I've reached my limit of images. Sorry. Will post it next time I can post in this thread.
Ashton
Thanks so much Ashton! Those are great images, and i cant believe you got to them so fast!. [i was only kidding about doing them!! LOL] Even if they are off a bit, your images im sure are VERY close. The roofs look to be great positions to get off the shots that were fired. Shooting from the TSBD roof would also be in alignment for the OSWALD shots, and would fall into their theory. The angle from the Dal-Tex building also looks great. From what i understand, the buildings had "turrets", if you will, around the outer edges of the roofs. Perfect hiding spots until ready to shoot. Plus, if anyone did see anyone up there, they would probably figure them to be , Secret Service, Dallas PD, etc.... doing their protective duties. Shots from the Records or Courts buildings [cant wait to see them if you get them posted] would also, im sure, be perfect "ambush' sites. As stated earlier, emptying the Courts building, and sending "all available men" to the parking area, would have given the shooter, or shooters/spotters a perfect exit right out the front door if needed. If indeed, there was a rifle found on the TSBD roof, as stated and filmed, only ads to the theory of these shooters. It only makes sense, to me at least, that being out side, higher than anyone else, no chance of anyone "happening' across you inside, and also an easier escape. [lesser chance of anyone to see you leaving] Just my opion, FWIW. Thanks so much again for the images!
--Smitty
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It was suggested to me by another researcher that this man may have been Brewer. I read all of his interviews, reports, etc. - I found no indication supporting that possibility. Given the conflicting reports, seems more likely that it was the man in the balcony - or possibly the man in the first rows that pointed Oswald out. It would be great to simply ask Brewer that single question to remove any further doubts.
The Haire story is not likely to ever be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. One reason for this; a photo allegedly shows him out front during Oswald's arrest. This ID however, has been disputed. If the photo does show him, he simply misremembered after 20 years as to where he witnessed the arrest. On the other hand, if he was in fact out back, it could have been George Applin. Applin testified he was taken to DPD by 3 cops. THis was most likely around the same time as Oswald was being taken in, as he further testified they took him back to the TT after taking his statement to catch the rest of the movie, but didn't make it in time to catch all of it.
Mr. BALL - Later did you go down to the police station and make a statement?
Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL - When?
Mr. APPLIN - Well, it was after--I guess after they got everybody's name. I rode down with three officers.
Mr. BALL - That same day, did you?
Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - You didn't go back to the picture show?
Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir; I did. There was a patrolman that carried me back out and I was going to see the rest of it, but I never did get back in time to.
Mr. BALL - You didn't get to see the show?
Mr. APPLIN - Well, I seen part of it, but I didn't get to see all of it.
Thanks Lee and Greg. Great pictures of the theatre. Sounds like you have given me my answer Greg. That sounds like the most reasonable thing it could have been. I dont know of anyone else being taken away out front, so it seems reasonable to believe that the police may have very well have taken him out the back, due to all of the confusion going on out front. Do you happen to know if anyone else was taken downtown for questioning? Lee, thanks for the renovation story. It would be great to have the theatre restored. It surely wouldnt hurt the area!
thanks--smitty
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Greg,
In it’s final report, the WC listed its conclusions based on the evidence it had been provided with by various agencies, and from the sworn testimony of witnesses it called.
Conclusion 6 was short and to the point:
Within 80 minutes of the assassination and 35 minutes of the Tippit killing Oswald resisted arrest at the theatre by attempting to shoot another Dallas police officer.
The after action reports by the arresting officers can be found in the DPD Archives, Box# 2, Folder# 7
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm
They were filed between December 2 - 5, 1963.
Here is what McDonald wrote in his Report:
M.N. McDonald: "When I got within a foot of him, I told the suspect to get to his feet. He stood up immediately, bringing his hands up about shoulder high and saying, "Well it's over now". I was reaching for his waist and he struck me on the nose with his left hand. With his right hand, he reached for his waist and both our hands were on a pistol that was stuck in his belt under his shirt. We both fell into the seats struggling for the pistol. ... I managed to get my right hand on the pistol over the suspect's hand. I could feel his hand on the trigger. I then got a secure grip on the butt of the pistol. I jerked the pistol and as it was clearing the suspect's clothing and grip I heard the snap of the hammer and the pistol crossed over my left cheek, causing a four inch scratch".
As you can see from reading these reports, at no time in the first 10 to 12 days following the assassination, did any of the arresting officers on the scene claim that Oswald tried to shoot M.N. McDonald. If the pistol did go off and cause a "snap" of the hammer falling into place, it was because McDonald jerked it out of Oswald's pants.
Oswald didn't take the gun out of his pants, McDonald did.
Steve Thomas
Very intersting thread. Great points made by all. I was wondering if anybody can eloborate on the story of Bernard Haire, who owned Bernies Hobby House. He stated that he was in the alley behind the theatre, and witnessed the police bringing a "flushed" man out into the alley and put him in the squad car. The police then left with the "suspect". Mr. Haire thought for many years that he witnessed the arrest of Oswald, until he found out years later that Oswald had been brought out on Jefferson Blvd. I understand that the theatre was layed out [sideways] so as the the screen was at the far right of the building looking at it from the front from Jefferson. The back of the theatre would be on the left of the building looking at it, and the "alley" would be directly in the back, not on the side, as normal theatres would be laid out. Anybody have anything on this episode?
thanks--Smitty
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Alors vous devrez lire mes lèvres.
Il n'y aura aucun nouvel impôt?
Yes. There will be no new taxes on lip reading. (For some reason that I simply cannot fathom, Babelfish can't translate that.)
First I would have to be able to comprehend it. I failed. However! I did what I always do in such an emergency of comprehension: I improvised. In this case the improvosation took the form of dropping into the street a second limo (not a Cadillac, as it was in real life, though—sorry), two motorcycles, and two trailing cars, then swinging the virtual camera around inside the Dal-Tex building right to where the purported "shooter" (with or without the extra-baggage accomplice) is alleged to have been. And here is what I saw:
Would you take the shot?
Only if I was really pissed off at James Tague.
<RIM SHOT, CYMBAL CRASH> Good one, Myra.
By the way, I'm quoting liberally (an adverb expressing quantity, not political leanings) and reproducing the images for continuity of discussion about these issues, which I consider to be of some appreciable significance:
The reason I've stopped quoting you here—and I'll beg your pardon for it—is gently to direct your attention to the rather nondescript edifice in the top portion of this image:
That is what is often referred to, I believe, as the "switching tower." It was manned that day. There is a witness who was there in it throughout the fell events of the noon hour. And after my having taken a virtual look from that location, I'm afraid that all your very well-formed and well-stated arguments fell on somewhat deaf ears (it might be the hat). But, please: you take a look for yourself at what could be viewed in a sweep from that tower, and tell me how likely it is, to you, that an organized group of professional killers would have selected the "behind the fence" area as a sniper's lair:
Uh, the knoll fence? Likely.
With a manned watch tower only 250 feet away—at your back, no less—that not only can see you, but has a 360° view of every possible escape route? And with the Sherriff's department (in the County Courts building) only about 350 feet away, directly in front of you, with at least 40 different windows looking down on your position?
So if I undertand you correctly, that's a place you'd consider "likely" to be picked by professional snipers to shoot from in order to murder the President of the United States in broad daylight—and be able to stroll away, rifle in hand?
Well, Myra, you have an uncanny knack for leaving me almost speechless. (I can only hope other forum members don't start to catch on to how you do it.)
But, even if I'm a glutton for punishment, I sure would like to know where this admirably brazen gun-totin' assassin went. Up in a puff of smoke? And while we're on the subject of puffs of smoke, I think I'll light up (yes, and with my hat on, too) and pose this conundrum to you:
1) Given that it has been rather thoroughly established that this event took place well along into the modern era of smokeless gunpowder (there's a whole thread on this subject), and,
2) if—as it seems you contend—the serendipitously timed infamous puff of smoke from the knoll fence area was not a premeditated, carefully timed diversion, and,
3) if the smoke did not come from the firing of a gun there, then:
just where did this spontaneous puff of smoke come from—right at that pregnant moment—and how, and why?
The question demands an answer from any serious researcher.
As I've made clear, and will say again, I believe the only possible answer is that it was, in fact, a premeditated, carefully timed diversion.
And so the question remains and echoes and reverberates like gunshots on an autumn afternoon: why was the order issued immediately for all personnel in the County Courts building to evacuate that building and go directly into the vast vacant lot you see above, where there clearly was nowhere to run, nowhere to hide.
Was there such an order? Can you please site a source?
Yes, ma'am, I can, thanks to the always perspicacious Steve Thomas. Below is what he graciously posted in response to a question I had posed on that count. You can find his original message in context in the thread Order in the Courts! The Riddle of the Court Jesters. Meanwhile, this is what he posted there, and it certainly bears repeating here:
Here is a transcript of what Sheriff Decker broadcast over Channel 2 of the Dallas Police Department at 12:30 from Chief Curry's lead car:
"Have my office move all available men out of my office into the railroad yard to try to determine what happened in there and hold everything secure until Homicide and other investigators should get there."
Here is what was broadcast by the Sheriff's Department dispatcher at 12:30:40:
"Stand by 1. All units and officers in the vicinity of the station report to the railroad track area, just north of Elm. Report to the railroad track area just north of Elm."
Hope that helps.
Steve Thomas
It helped me a great deal, and I found it of great interest that the highly compressed incident contains a beautiful overlay of confusion between the Dallas Police Chief, Jesse E. Curry, and the Dallas County Sheriff, Bill Decker: We have Sheriff Decker broadcasting orders from Police Chief Curry's car. Has your head stopped spinning yet? If not, I'm happy to wait.
Now, without going off into the relationship of these two men to Dallas Mayor Earl Cabell (elsewhere Earle Cabell—brother of CIA's own Charles Cabell, who had been heavily involved in the Bay of Pigs, and subsequently given the boot by JFK), please note that Decker says "have my office [in the County Courts building] move all available men out of my office." And where does he order them to go? He orders them out of the County Courts building—A in the graphic below—and into the "railroad yard"—B in the graphic below—with instructions (and please read the next phrase carefully, several times) for them "to try to determine what happened in there." Here is the graphic:
To "try to determine what happened in there"? At almost the instant of the shooting, who has determined that something "happened in there"?
I'll tell you what "happened in there": a lot of smoke, that's what "happened in there."
Are you suggesting that the assassins were trying to flush out the witness to the assassination to nail them in the parking lot?(That repititious clunking sound is just my head on the desk. Almost knocked my hat off, too.)
No, Myra. No. No, I'm not remotely suggesting that. I'm sorry that I've been so opaque and impenetrable. It was not my intent. Here's what I'm suggesting, in plain words, as my opinions on all the foregoing:
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• The County Courts building/complex was the location of a primary shooter, probably who delivered the head shot.
• The County Courts building/complex was emptied specifically to provide a perfect cover for the shooter, likely in uniform, to leave the building without arousing the least suspicion—even if carrying a weapon.
• Everyone was sent to the "railroad track area just north of Elm" specifically and maliciously because not a damned thing had "happened in there" except a puff of smoke and maybe some loud reports, and because it was away from the escape routes of the shooters.
• Decker was in cahoots with Cabell & Cabell (and you can climb that ladder right on up the food chain as high as you care to, or not).
And just in case you missed my earlier point (I couldn't tell if you were joking or not), I did not bring up the tower as a shooter's location. I brought it up because the presence of a manned observation tower directly behind the knoll fence area makes the entire idea of a professional sniper back there just fall-down funny to me. (So much for badge men, dog men, invisible men, Indian rope trick men, and little green men extracted from golfball-sized grain in fifth-generation photos.)
And not to go all opaque and impenetrable on yer ass again or anything, but I'm going to add here—inscrutably enough and seemingly disconnected enough, perhaps—that I believe that the uniform J.D. Tippit was carrying factors into this exact scenario, as does the uniform worn by the "deputy" seen coming down the stairs in the TSBD by three people as the so-called "first deputy on the scene" was going up those same stairs.
And there's still the problem of what the officer burned his hand on when he vaulted over the fence.
Ain't we got fun.
Ashton
This is a great thread! Ashton, thanks for the DP images. They are wonderful! Im sure i can speak for us all on that. I have always felt that there had to be roof shooters involved. A very logical place. Pretty much out of sight, fire escapes [im pretty sure] on all buildings, plus they also must have had access to the roof from inside also. You would have had a perfect sight to all of the motocade as it passed through DP. I posted a thread not long ago about film that was taken by Mr. Ernie Mentesana right after the shooting that showed Dallas police examining a rife that supposedly was removed from the TSBD roof. It surely wasnt a MAN/CAR, as it had no scope, and no sling. I cant remember where i saw pictures from his film. The police were either examining the rifle on the TSBD fire escape, or just when they got on the ground from the fire escape. I wondered in my last post if anybody knew what had happened to Mr. Mentesanas film, and why we didnt hear much about the "roof" gun. I believe there was also a shell casing found on the roof of the Records Building in the 70's on the roof edge under the tarpaper by an air conditioner repairman [ i believe]. Your posting about having the Courts Building emptied, and having a shooter in uniform leaving the building sure would be a good cover for escape after shooting from the roof. What are your thoughts on that? Makes alot of sense to me. By the way, when you are done everybody elses images, you can do the veiws from all the roofs of all the buildings for me! LOL!
thanks, Smitty
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• The County Courts building/complex was the location of a primary shooter, probably who delivered the head shot.
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Myra,
In Australia there has been no coverage that I am aware of. The History Channel ran 'JFK: A Presidency Revealed' but that's it.
James
The radio program Coast to Coast did a fairly extensive show last night. Unfortunately, they spent 2 hours interviewing 90 year old Paul Groody(LHO's mortician). He still claims it wasn't LHO's head that was exhumed. He also contradicted some of the things he said in his TMWKK interview. I saw nothing on the national or local newscasts or their websites. What a freakin shame.
RJS
Its pathetic. Here in the U.S. [specifically here in Jersey] the only thing that was on TV last night was a 1 hour show on our local PBS channel [12]. It was about all of the media coverage that was shown from the assassination to the funeral. Alot of good clips, some i have never seen before, including most of the live "errors" that were made. [reported deaths of other people, etc...] The only way i found out about it was a mention of it on the local NPR radio station i listen to. Nothing else. You would think one of other major cable channels would have had something on about it. There always has been something on somewhere about the anniversary. I guess the History channel finally gave it up, along with the others. Its a damn shame. There was probably more on about it in other countries, than here in his own country! Pathetic!
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A truly fascinating interview. I was unaware that no critical comments about the WC were allowed to be broadcast by the US radio and TV networks for a full year after its publication. Lane was remarkably resourceful and tenacious in countering this wall of silence.
I agree that he's a genuine American hero.
Rush to Judgement remains the most comprehensive demolition of the WC I've read.
Lane's A Citizen's Dissent remains the most comprehensive demolition of the "free" American press I've read.
Although it enjoyed a much smaller readership, Accessories After the Fact by Sylvia Meagher was equally devastating to the Commission's findings, in my opinion. Of course, so was Weisberg's Whitewash.
The courage and persistence of Lane, Meagher and Weisberg in the face of incredible opposition are to be admired. It's a shame they never got to see justice administered to President Kennedy's murderers.
Mike, you've talked me into it. It's top of my list.
If A Citizen's Dissent demolishes the notion of a free press, then it's a must read. The 'free press' played a pivotal role in the JFK coverup. It can be argued that had the press really been free and fearless in '63, we wouldn't be here now discussing JFK, MLK, Malcolm X, RFK and all the other controversies.
If the truth about JFK's death could be retrieved from the sea of lies, the biggest loser would not be conspirators but the media who would then be morally obliged to investigate a multitude of other official deceptions. Once the media is convinced that the public know they are lying, then they will end the charade, IMO. We're starting to see it now with Iraq.
It's not employed journalists who are to blame--they follow orders and are dealt with when they stray, as John Simkin and others have pointed out on other threads--but the amorphous presence lurking behind the press which determines what we shall see, and, of course, what we shall not see.
Mark Lane to me anyway, was the ground breaker for everyone to follow. His tireless efforts to get to the bottom of the assasination set the bar. Personally i believe he got alot of peoples interest in this case, and got them interested enough to follow in his steps.
It would be great to have him join the forum. The input he could give us, would be irreplaceable. As i told John when i joined the forum, Mr. Lane was, or is still living about 20 mnutes from me in South Jersey. He does, as stated earlier, a weekly radio program on our local radio station covering legal issues i believe. If no one can contact him, let me know, as i can probably contact him. Im not sure if he is still living in the area or not, as the last time i went by his house, it had a "For Sale" sign on it. He has done quite a bit for our community with his radio program and contributions. I went to a local yearlly community get together with silent and live auctions. He had donated two new copies of his out of print books, which were autographed. Needless to say i was out bid! lol! I kick myself for not bidding higher now! lol! --smitty
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Gaeton Fonzi and James Bamford broke the JFK case years ago.
If there had been more men like Gaeton Fonzi on the HSCA, the case might have been solved....Oh, pardon me, did I interrupt some poetic pining for the truth?'scuse...
No pining for the truth here, is there?
Understand this, also: The action that brought about the death of President Kennedy is directly related to where we have gone as a nation since then. It is particularly important to what is happening today. That single event prefaced the disintegration of our solid faith in government, fathering the now pervasive and enervating assumption that we no longer have control over our economic or political destiny. Its residue lies in the ashes of the Sixties--in burned out countries and burned out cities and burned out people--and in the debilitating social disparities and continuing civil conflicts of the last thirty years. The assassination and its aftermath bred rampant distrust and disrespect for all established institutions, and that outlook festers yet.And now, we hardly give a damn when our own Government violates or ignores its own laws, as it has done with distressing regularity over the last two decades. An enormous public apathy greeted the Iran/Contra scandals; we were hardly stirred by the fact that hidden layers of government had pursued a secret foreign policy agenda, circumventing the law of the land, the Congress and the Constituion itself.And still, it seems incredible that we're not angry. The fact is, we know an effective democracy demands a populace ready, willing and able to get riled enough to pressure its elected officials into doing their duty in spite of themselves. Where is that anger now?The Government has failed us. It is outrageous that in a democratic society, after two official investigations, our Government still tells us it doesn't know what happened,I hope this book makes you angry about that. Very angry. If it doesn't, we might as well let slip the grip on our individual freedom. It will be gone soon enough.Gaeton Fonzi 1993The Last InvestigationThanks for starting this Steve. I think we all want to find some truth in this whole assassination, and maybe some closure. Wheather this will happen or not we dont know. We continue because we care. We want the truth. If everyone stopped caring about this, what would become of it? I think that is what the government figured would happen. That everyone would just "forget" about it, and move on. But we havent. This needs to be continued, not just for our satisfaction, but for those to follow us. The generations to come.
Thank you Michael for the last quote from Gaeton Fonzi. How true it is. ---smitty
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duplicate deleted
Thanks for your response Jack. That means alot coming from you. I will try and find that film, as it sounds as though it would be very interesting. I would love to see a compilation of all of the films. I assume that "all" of them arent included, but a full length run of each persons film would be great. It would be great to look at what Mr. Mentesana filmed that day, and to find out what has happened to it.
Thanks again, Smitty
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Hi all,
Im a new member, and this is my first post. I hope this is worth discussing. I have always wondered how many guns were "actually" found in the TSBD. I was always drawn to Ernie Mentesana, and what he filmed at the TSBD. I assume he was filming that day, and not taking individual pictures. I remember seeing a "frame", or an individual picture supposedly taken by him showing police officers checking a separate weapon on either the fire escape, or on the ground. The rifle pictured was deffinately not the M/Carcano, as there was no sling or scope, and was supposedly found on the roof of the TSBD.
I have read alot of the posts and have found many references to other shooters, and other possible locations of shooters. [west end shooter -GPH German speaking man] [Dal-Tex roof top shooter etc......]
From what i understand is that Mr. Mentesana died in 1969 from a heart attack. Can anyone here fill us in on what has happened to that film/pictures of what Mr. Mentesana took that day? I havent heard much on this subject, and it seems like it should have been a major part of the assassination.
There has been discussion of a Records Building roof top shooter [Harry Weatherford??] and the Dal-Tex shooter [braden????]. A rooftop shooter would make alot of sense, and explain the pigeons flying off the roof, as supposed seen by many. There have been talk of a rifle shell being found on the Records Building roof years ago under the edge of the roof paper at the roof ledge, but i havent heard much on the TSBD roof/and or shooter. A TSBD roof shooter could explain some of the shots.
I have always felt that the supposed "mix up" of the assassation weapon identification, was a total fraud. How could Roger Craig, Seymour Weitzman [supposedly a former gun shop owner] and Eugene Boone all be wrong?? Especially Weitzman! I truly believe there were way more than one rifle found that day.
I hope we can get some input on this subject, and maybe get my questions answered.
Thanks all! Mike Smith--[smitty]
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I have been interested and researching our political assassinations for some time now, and am continually looking for more information. There have been many political moves by our government to alter the course of our future, which have succeeded. Unfortunately, in my opinion, the powers that be have made the mistake of thinking that nothing would ever become of their actions. Well, as we can see, that has not happened. Many great researchers and investigative reporters have continually strived to uncover more than what is on the surface. Thanks to these people, we have found out so much about what has happened in these political conspiracies. Hopefully, with the continued work of all of us, most of the answers will finaly be revealed. Thanks to the Education Forum for this wonderful, worldwide connection for us all to contribute and learn.
Alllllllll right! Sheesh! Just for you, Peter.
What is it with George H.W. Bush's crying?
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Ron, Im surely not a psychologist, but i think he is crying tears of joy just thinking of a third Bush being elected President in the not so distant future to carry on his warmonger attitude! LOL! Jeb wins it by a hair after a ballot counting problem in his home state [sound familiar?], and is blamed on voting machine malfunctions! The fianl result comes after weeks of recounting, after his opponent had already been declared the victor!!
thanks-smitty