Michael G. Smith

Hi all, Being new here, I dont know if this has been, or was disscussed at some point [im sure it has been]. Anyway, it has always puzzled me about why it was removed, how long after the assassination it was removed, and who removed it. I have heard many reasons why, when, and who, from many well known people in my readings, but never anything positive. Mostly speculation, I assume, as we may never know the "exact" answers. I have heard it was because of a bullet hole, a sight marker for the Zapruder film [alterations?], etc... I just wanted to throw this out here and maybe get some responces from you more knowledgeable folks, and maybe get some good answers to these questions. If it was disscussed, just point me in the right direction, and I'll be on my way!

thanks-smitty

There is a Forum discussion about Scott Enyart here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6760

Michael, thanks for the site info! It took me to "Black-Op" radio, and to the interview with Scott. Very cool site, as it also has an interview with Jean Hill, and others. Very helpful understanding what he went through, and what he did, and where he was during RFK's assassination. What makes it nice is you can hear the original interview in "his own" words, and not something someone chose to write. Thanks again, and i will be checking that site more often for other interviews with other interesting people.

thanks-smitty

Although a massive amount of research has been conducted toward the solving of the JFK assassination, I have long believed that the much easier case to crack is that of his brother Bobby. Unlike Dallas, with the hopelessly botched autopsy, we have with RFK a real autopsy. Dr Thomas Noguchi's finding that the kill shot was behind the Senator's right ear, as close as one inch away is PROOF that RFK was not murdered by Sirhan Sirhan. Until his death in '05 Sirhan's attorney Larry Teeter was providing his imfamous client excellent representation. Does anyone know if anyone has taken over for Teeter?

We know that Thane Eugene Cesar was directly behind Bobby, and has admitted to having a weapon drawn. Perhaps Cesar was, like Sirhan, a MC. In spite of massive destruction of evidence by the LAPD I have a belief that it is still possible to solve this crime. And it would be wonderful if it could happen while Dr. Noguchi is still alive.

Dawn

Dawn, I totally agree it is an easier case to solve and prove offical malfeasance in the tampering with the evidence and investigation, etc. However, look at what happened with the new photos of three CIA 'heavies' lurking in the Ambassador, no doubt hoping to shake RKF's hand in congratulations....and there are no screams I hear of outrage and demand for an investigation....or did I miss something over here in Europe. I think more saw it here than there, in fact. Most here were shocked and shocked it didn't cause riots..or even a loud rumbling noise. Sleep Sheep Sleep.......

I agree with you too Dawn. I just wish they would, and get one figured out and solved. Maybe it would cause more people to "move " on solving JFK's. I forget the kids name who was taking all of the pictures that day, [a new camera i beleive] at the moment, but from what i heard, the LAPD and the "powers that be" really messed with him pretty bad. I beleive they took all his film, and it took a lawsuit to get them returned [but some were missing i believe]. I beleive it took years and years. Now hes an adult, and from what i understand he either has a pending lawsuit or won the lawsuit. [im no expert here so correct me if im wrong] Im sure his pictures 'showed' what really happened, as i believe he was shooting film the whole time through the pantry. just my opinion

FWIW, thanks-smitty

This goes back a few years. I'll give you a brief synopsis from memory as it is getting late here. Scott Enyart did win his lawsuit. A courier was hired to go to the state archives in Sacramento to deliver the film to him. Somewhere in south central Los Angeles, the courier stopped for gas (or had a flat tire) and the briefcase containing the photos was stolen. I think Lisa Pease in Probe did a thorough article on this at the time. Conjecture is the photos were destroyed many years ago. I tend to agree. Had I been the owner of such potentially important evidence, I would have personally traveled to the archives in Sacramento in the presence of my attorney to pick up the film.....FWIW.

Nick

Thanks Nick! Your right on that, i remeber hearing that a while back ago. Stolen, huh? Sounds about right! How conveniant! You are right, i believe, in saying that the pictures were probably destroyed many years ago. Im sure they surely showed what really happened there. Mr. Enyart was the "Zapruder" during RFK's assassination. Isnt it ironic that both brothers assassinations were filmed, one film survived, and couldnt be destroyed [because of multiple copies], used in an investigation, and was by all indications, altered to show what "the powers that be" wanted shown, and the other pictures that were taken, to be used in an "investigation, were by all indications, "destroyed" when given the opportunity, and never were used to "prove anything"! I have to assume that Mr. Enyart didnt have the chance to make copies of his film before it was "taken". Of all of the reported "shots", meaning extra bullet holes, that cannot be accounted for, were just shown to be non-existant, is amazing. How many holes were there? More than S/S gun could hold, plus the wound shots. It is just so unbelievable that the LAPD would end up doing the job they did, after what happened to JFK. I just remembered where it was i read about the case in detail.......i dug out my old ass. books and found my copy of Matthew Smiths "Conspiracy" - The plot to kill the Kennedys. A very good book. Shows the Plots involved to kill, or conspire, against JFK, RFK, and EMK. Also has a section on the Marilyn Monroe death. If you havent read it yet, put it on your x-mas list. Just my opinion, FWIW

thanks-smitty

Although a massive amount of research has been conducted toward the solving of the JFK assassination, I have long believed that the much easier case to crack is that of his brother Bobby. Unlike Dallas, with the hopelessly botched autopsy, we have with RFK a real autopsy. Dr Thomas Noguchi's finding that the kill shot was behind the Senator's right ear, as close as one inch away is PROOF that RFK was not murdered by Sirhan Sirhan. Until his death in '05 Sirhan's attorney Larry Teeter was providing his imfamous client excellent representation. Does anyone know if anyone has taken over for Teeter?

We know that Thane Eugene Cesar was directly behind Bobby, and has admitted to having a weapon drawn. Perhaps Cesar was, like Sirhan, a MC. In spite of massive destruction of evidence by the LAPD I have a belief that it is still possible to solve this crime. And it would be wonderful if it could happen while Dr. Noguchi is still alive.

Dawn

Dawn, I totally agree it is an easier case to solve and prove offical malfeasance in the tampering with the evidence and investigation, etc. However, look at what happened with the new photos of three CIA 'heavies' lurking in the Ambassador, no doubt hoping to shake RKF's hand in congratulations....and there are no screams I hear of outrage and demand for an investigation....or did I miss something over here in Europe. I think more saw it here than there, in fact. Most here were shocked and shocked it didn't cause riots..or even a loud rumbling noise. Sleep Sheep Sleep.......

I agree with you too Dawn. I just wish they would, and get one figured out and solved. Maybe it would cause more people to "move " on solving JFK's. I forget the kids name who was taking all of the pictures that day, [a new camera i beleive] at the moment, but from what i heard, the LAPD and the "powers that be" really messed with him pretty bad. I beleive they took all his film, and it took a lawsuit to get them returned [but some were missing i believe]. I beleive it took years and years. Now hes an adult, and from what i understand he either has a pending lawsuit or won the lawsuit. [im no expert here so correct me if im wrong] Im sure his pictures 'showed' what really happened, as i believe he was shooting film the whole time through the pantry. just my opinion

FWIW, thanks-smitty

Question for James. I can't seem to locate all of your comparisons of Robertson, Barnes, and other agency personnel. I must have bad file names on them. Can you do a quick summary of each guy in the plaza along with the BEST MATCHING PHOTO? Thanks. (Jack White)

Hi Jack,

I do not believe the man positioned up the pole is Morales. I also don't think the other guy is Tracy Barnes. I do however consider that the men standing at the corner of Main and Houston are Rip Robertson and Col. William Bishop aka John Adrian O'Hare. (remembering that Bishop claimed he was at the Trade Mart when the assassination occured)

Add the Lucien Conein look-a-like located about 10 feet from these men and things get very spooky.

James

Definitely looks like Robertson. He has that "Karl Malden" nose for sure!

-smitty

I still find it intriguing that at least one of the cars bearing out-of-state plates [as seen by Bowers] was most likely registered to an individual that resided in Oak Cliff.

Regarding Oak Cliff generally and the relevant incidents therein: has anyone bothered to factor in two intel cult "safe houses" of record in Oak Cliff, or to account for their locations?

Ashton

Ashton, would one of those be the Abundant Life Temple?

Greg, I honestly don't know. Somehow, I don't think so—but it's possible. I simply cannot get answers to the specific questions I have asked about them in the thread Would Tosh Plumlee please pick up the white courtesy phone?

The information I have on them so far is pretty much embodied in the questions in that thread, but here it is again, with some augmentation I received recently:

• OAK CLIFF SAFE HOUSE #1 There purportedly was an Oak Cliff safe house "in Dallas...on North Beckley Street" in which Tosh Plumlee had spent some amount of time in the company of Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in some kind of "intelligence training matters." According to the record, this safe house was "run by Alpha 66's Hernandez group, who had worked out of Miami prior to the assassination." That's the complete record so far that I know of. I have one other somewhat vague bit of information about it that I have been sent in e-mail by Peter Lemkin (with the clear prior understanding that I do not ever receive any information on a private line that I cannot publish) but just haven't had an opportunity to post, which is that it was "in a lower class area," for whatever that's worth. Peter also said of this safe house: "Jim Marrs might also have these details. I believe Plumlee was there several times over a few months…generally around the July [sic] of 1963. I also believe there were some others [sic—safe houses?], but that one was the main one." Maybe Peter will post more on this when he has time and if he has any more specific information. Maybe Jim Marrs will join the discussion.
  OAK CLIFF SAFE HOUSE #2 There was a separate, different safe house "over by Oak Cliff Country Club on Bar Harbor Drive." Of course this is couched in intel-speak, where it is impossible from the syntax to determine whether the reference to Bar Harbor Drive is naming the street that the Oak Cliff Country Club is on, or that the safe house is on, or both. This is the safe house that Plumlee and company purportedly went through en route from and to Redbird Airport on 22 November 1963. Of that one, Peter Lemkin said: "The one near the country club was in a nicer upper-middle class area. I don’t have the address of the second with me."
  

Apparently Peter doesn't have certain records with him where he is. He didn't provide an address for the first safe house, either.

That is the totality of any reasonably useful information I have on the two Oak Cliff safe houses at issue. I've posted here what seems to augment the existing record. The one other thing Peter said that I found of interest, in response to my question to Tosh Plumlee inquiring whether there was only one Oak Cliff safe house being described or two separate Oak Cliff safe houses (it was difficult to tell initially), Peter answered in pertinent part: "Two separate [of which there were a few other] safe houses."

This indicates his knowledge of more than just the two described above. I have no information on when, where, or how he came by such knowledge on any of the safe houses. I was given no other specific information at all, even whether these "few other" safe houses were also in Oak Cliff or not. Any further information on that count will have to come from Peter Lemkin.

The original references to each of the two Oak Cliff safe houses at issue came from one source: Tosh Plumlee.

Given that the two Oak Cliff safe houses described above are in the record, and given that Peter Lemkin seems to corroborate their existence, and given that he suggests that Jim Marrs also can corroborate it, it astounds me beyond expression that any discussion of events in and immediately around Oak Cliff can take place at all without the absolute first priority being to track down every last shred of information that can be gathered from any source on these safe houses, their exact location, their owners, their uses, and personnel who inhabited or passed through them at any relevant time.

To do otherwise is to chase butterflies barefoot through a field writhing with black mambas.

Ashton

"To do otherwise is to chase butterflies barefoot through a field writhing with black mambas." Poetic. Sorry Ashton and all....Ashton, you are free to put what I sent you on the Plumlee white phone thread. Sorry it was not complete nor grammar checked. Don't mean to wax personal, but my dog is mortally ill and this is putting me nearly beyond my ability to do anything - least think clearly on these matters now, important as they are. As Ashton indicated. I have exact information on much of this, but on the other side of the planet. I had a little 'incident' back in the homeland and had to leave. I was working on just this very stuff when the phone threats and more began and much in my life fell apart. Perhaps a coincidence, perhaps not. Just prior to this Plumlee had gotten a phone call from a friend that Ted Shackley wanted to talk to him about the research 'you and Lemkin' are doing.

Jim Marrs and I were with Plumlee to the 'Country Club' area safehouse. I don't have the address on this side of the planet. Jim does for sure. I do when I can get back....or afford the crashed disk here to be read. Jim told me he was able to find others who had some knowledge of that house being a safe house. Given the area I would have thought the neighbors would wonder if a lot of single guys came in all of a sudden....but, hey, anyone can have a party on 11/22/63, or whenever.

It looked like your average American upper-middle class area...nice single houses with nice large lawns and fences....dull-normal. Jim is hard to contact and very busy..but I suggest someone in contact with him ask for the address. Sorry I don't have it on a working hard drive with me and time has made me forget. Plumlee indicated that the other 'Alpha-66' safe house was where everyone says it was. There were some others, but that was the central one. Others were overflow or satellite ones..or maybe just private apartments of those who were connected. Plumlee claims to have been there a few times and interacted with those inside both there and around the town. I do NOT recall him saying he ever met Oswald there. He does claim to have met Oswald in Dallas a few times and one time he remembers clearly was he and Lee setting off fireworks on the Fourth of July. I asked Marina, but she delined to identify Plumlee's picture, or such an incident....I'll let you draw your own conclusions. I consider Marina someone I like, a friend and very nice person who has suffered much, but also not always reliable on these matters for many complex reasons.

The question remains if this safe house near the golf course was known to those in the Alpha-66 safe house - or run by two completely different groups or just as operatinal proceedure kept unknown to the others. It might have been used just the once as a safe house on 11/22, for all we know. It was, according to Tosh, just a nice middle-class house inside as if someONE family was 'living' there. It would be interesting to know who. Ask Jim. According to Plumlee nothing his group did [to his knowledge] was assicated with the other safe house that day. He [Plumlee] was instructed, in fact back in FL, to stay in the safe house and NOT to go anywhere awaiting his role to fly out some people later in the day [one of which he thought was likely to be Oswald...but only becuase of a hint given and a nick-name...not a definite identification of whom]. In fact, according to Plumlee he broke his operational instructions because he wanted to see JFK and went along with Sergio to the Plaza. He liked JFK and considered him his Commander-in-chief.

Bar Harbor Drive was the street associated with the Golf and Country Club. The safe house was a few street away.

Over and out for now. Peter

Hey guys, Believe me, Im no expert by any means on this or any subject, but i do remember reading a while ago about a 'safe house' over by the Dallas Zoo. I dont know if this is true, or if its one you are talking about already, but i figured i would mention it. Being in a 'run down area' may qualify for this safe house, as the area around the Zoo, from what i have seen, isnt the "Marthas Vineyard" type of area. Hope this helps, if not, forget i sent it! FWIW

thanks-smitty

How did 2 identical buildings fall in the same manner? Think about that for a sec.

How did they fall straight down? Gravity. The buildings weren't strong enough to stay together while they toppled over, as soon as one side failed and they started to tilt, the tilt made the other side fail, and it went straight down from there. No part of the building was strong enough to hold one side of the top part to act as a pivot. And they were not anywhere near 'in their own footprints', every building for a couple blocks in every direction was damaged, some so severly they had to be destroyed, and one so bad it fell on its own.

Kevin, I respect your opinion, thats what this Forum is about. Not to argue, or be smart, but I said "drop within such a small area {considering their height, weight, and size}" meaning for their size they dropped in a small area, several blocks is a small area, to me at least, for the massive size of the buildings. If they had fell on their side, or just 1/2 of it fell on its side, then you would have been talking about a very large damage area. I didnt say that they fell "in their own footprints". Like i said, i respect everyones opinion, and thats what people do here, they discuss, and voice their opinion. Like i stated a while back, I try to end my posts with "just my opinion, FWIW", and thats just what they are. If people dont agree, thats fine. Then its not worth much to them personally. Just my opinion, FWIW.

thanks-smitty

X

..... what Jim posted has me thinking about him being picked up and taken to the theatre, plus what Bill posted about the p/car being sold and used in the planning gives, me at least, some food for thought for a while. I would surely like to hear more about what Bill said Robert Howard found out about the "sale" of the cruiser. Im not sure if Mr. Howard is a member here or not, but if so, i would truly like to hear about it from him. [in short, and just basic findings of course] Bill, if you can help out here, it would truly be appreciated.

Just my opinion, FWIW. thanks -smitty

Michael,

RH is most certainly a member of this forum; must be off in DeeP Elm on a Friday night. Robert Howard is the best JFK researcher on the ground in Dallas today. Here's what he sent me a few weeks ago:

Thought you might find this interesting. The information which is presented can also be found in John Armstrong's 'Harvey & Lee' page 520. On April 10, 1963, the day of the Walker shooting, Jack Ruby placed a long-distance phone call from the Carousel Club to Clarence Rector, who lived in Sulphur Springs, Texas. A week later, on April 17, 1963 the Dallas Police sold one of their patrol cars, a 1962 Ford to used-car dealer Elvis Blount, who also lived in Sulphur Springs. What makes this information so pertinent to the assassination of President Kennedy is the fact that the patrol-car bore the number # 107. It was a Dallas Police Dept. Patrol Car bearing the # 107 which was cited as the number of the mysterious vehicle parked outside of 1026 N. Beckley by Oswald's landlady Earlene Roberts just moments after Oswald ostensibly arrived at the boarding house after leaving the TSBD after the assassination of President Kennedy. The Warren Commission and the Dallas Police Dept. we are supposed to believe 'investigated' Robert's I.D. of patrol-car # 107 and was unable to come up with any conclusive information, other than the fact that there was no DPD vehicle by that number, at the time.It would not require a great deal of intelligence to speculate that the Dallas Patrol Car # 107 seen by Earlene Roberts, was, in fact the same car, which was purchased by Rector and subsequently re-appeared on November 22, 1963 in Dallas.

Warren Commission Exhibit 2045; letter to WC Rep. Norman Redlich from Charles Batchelor DPD of August 4, 1964 in ref. to Elvis Blount and H.S.C.A. Volume 9 Appendix Reports, page 192 concerning Ruby and Rector.

Also, Michael,

Where in South Jersey are you? Are we in the same neck of the woods?

BK

bkjfk3@yahoo.com

Thanks Bill. That is some great info to hear. I never heard that part of the #107 car being sold. [and possibly being used for who knows what in the assassination!] Ill be thinking this over for some time to come! lol! Ill be emailing you. Thanks again-smitty

Tom Purvis

has I suppose entered this thread as an excuse to probably for the ten thousandth time, to re-re-re-re-explain to us, his famous "TWIG THEORY".

Per usual, I expect that Tom will take over this thread by posting so much gibberish that anyone wanting to correspond will be disuaded by knowing that they must re-re-read Tom's ridiculous BS about twigs separating FMJ bullets from their core.

Tom finds it necessary to post a military photo of himself in uniform to impress those of you without military experience. The truth is, that the picture of Tom is no doubt at least thirty years old !

Tom, there are many on this forum, including myself that would probably put your military experience to shame!

Several years ago I complained to the forum administration that Tom Purvis was monopolizing this forum by having eleven different posts...all on the same topics....which of course were the twig theory and his Dealey Plaza land surveys.

His apparent distaste for my complaint has apparently not been forgotten, so he frquently spews venom whenever he sees my name.

To the rest of the forum, I apologize. I well realized and so stated that what I was posting was speculation. However, most of what we each believe regarding 11/22/63 is in fact speculative. There are a "few facts" which most of us accept, and from there we attempt in our minds to construct a scenario. I am an "out of the box" type thinker. I see no point in attempting to impress some very learned members of this forum by "parroting" back and forth much of the same gibberish that has been parroted back and forth for forty years.

I will "pat myself on the back" by saying that my speculation, if given some thought, makes much more sense than many. If we do not speculate...what should we do? I do not foresee earth shattering evidence being made available to the research community in any reasonable period of time.

I feel that we should take what we have in hand and see how much that we can build with it.

As for Tom Purvis.....I expect this to be the last time that I will ever type his name.

Charlie Black

Charlie, Thanks for the post. This subject has been disscussed, and im sure it wont be the last. [but well worth talking about] I believe he never owned the gun, or had any connection to it. For starters, the gun had no prints on it, "anywhere", except those that Day said he supposedly "found" under the stock, after the FBI already said there were none. Day couldnt even prove the prints were there, after claiming he had found them. They couldnt produce his actual "order form" for the gun, and no other proof he actually recieved it positively. [it was all fabricated] Marina wouldnt have known a gun from a shovel! Anything she claimed, as to Oswald owning a rifle, was coerced from the authorities. Probably with the deportation threat. When she finally testified, she had her testimony down pat, after being very well prepped to everything she had to say to 'convict" her husband. The clincher was to say that he was to have used the rifle to take a "pot-shot" at Walker with it! As far as "curtain rods" who knows. it surely wasnt a gun. same for the "paper".The authorities and later [the Warren Commision] had an easy time tying him to the gun, after the rifle range set up [and making a scene there], getting the scope mounted/sighted/shimmed [take your pick], and the icing on the cake, "finding" the hidden "alledged assassins weapon" in the building, on the floor where he was working! All of this BS was shoveled down the throats of a shaken, distraught, believing, country. I cant remember where i read it, but someone [dont hold me to it] in the CIA?? was told to order several M/Carcanos at some point, and that person was really puzzled by that request at the time. [maybe someone can fill me in on that episode, where it was written, and correct me if im wrong] All in all, it was a joke from the start. I think you could probably say the same thing about his ".38 Special". [the one that may have been "planted/taken from him in the theatre as he was arrested] Anyway Charlie, [as i always try to end MY posts] Just MY opinion, FWIW. LOL!

thanks-smitty

The multiple Carcano order of the CIA is described by former agent Robert Morrow in his book BETRAYAL.

Jack

Thanks Jack. I will check it out again. I just couldnt remember where i saw it.

thanks-smitty

X

Tom, I figure, and am under the impression, that if that was his "job", he would have gotten their attention by acting suspiciously, [and according to Dallas PD--his "description matched the person suspectedly wanted for the assassination" --released immediately by the way!] and after getting someone, wheather it was Brewers or someone elses attention, suppossedly walked into the theatre without a ticket. Im sure he would have gotten attention somehow. One of the big discussions has always been"why so many police, patrol cars, detectives, and so on, for someone who walked into a theatre without buying a ticket?? Dallas PD knew ahead of time, most probably because of certain higher ups, and a few other involved patrolmen, who were in on the whole plan. As i said, what Jim posted has me thinking about him being picked up and taken to the theatre, plus what Bill posted about the p/car being sold and used in the planning gives, me at least, some food for thought for a while. I would surely like to hear more about what Bill said Robert Howard found out about the "sale" of the cruiser. Im not sure if Mr. Howard is a member here or not, but if so, i would truly like to hear about it from him. [in short, and just basic findings of course] Bill, if you can help out here, it would truly be appreciated.

Just my opinion, FWIW. thanks -smitty

Of course some look melted, car bodies are made of plastics and thin sheets of metal. Why would tires burn completely away? Because firefighters had better things to do than put them out. Unless you're referring to the ones where there are no remains at all on the wheel or on the ground around them, in which case the car was clearly moved afterwards and the tire remains fell away.

I don't see anything strange about any of the burned vehicles. I've seen a few car fires, they don't always spread to the entire car. Sometimes the front burns up, sometimes the back burns up, sometimes the top. Sometimes the metal itself burns (they use aluminum sometimes).

As for the 'spire' turning to dust, that is so laughable I feel like I'm wasting time addressing it for the 10th time. The column had the support knocked out from under it by debris piling up at the base, and it fell straight down. It's that simple. It was covered in crushed drywall and concrete like everything else there, and some of it came loose as it fell, leaving a trail of dust. The combination of the dust obscuring it, and the motion blur as it fell, and the crappy low resolution of the videos you find on the web, make it hard to see, but even with all that you can still see it fall away, and not vaporize.

Not looking at the pictures/videos Jack posted yet, which i will as soon as i can, im sure there are questionable things that need answering. Saying that, i have always believed that these buildings were "helped". As far as "burned vehicles", they didnt just get some debris dropped on them. I have looked into this for some time, and my opinion [FWIW], has been that, unfortunately, our Government had their hands in this terrible event. Without going into any detail at this point, ask yourself one thing..........how do two, almost identical buildings, hit at different levels, at different angles, "fall" almost perfectly straight down?? Two almost identical {they didnt call them the "Twin Towers" for nothing} drop in such a manner that they did not topple, lean, partially fall, fall into one another, and drop within such a small area [considering their height, weight and size] without causing any other major damage and deaths?? You can throw all of the physics you want at it, it doesnt happen. Believe me, im not a physicist, but common sense takes over at some point. These buildings were brought down with "help" from the "powers that be" to fall in a very small area, [straight down] and to cause the least amount of damage to the area, with no, or very few if any additional deaths. This was all done so this Government could finally move on to their long awaited "Next Step". They could then have every reason to "in the name of National Security" invade everyones personal privacy, get every one ID'd at some point, in some way, for "your personal safety", and any other so called security measure they wanted to put in place. Im not even going to touch on the "Anthrax" threat.[!!??] Isnt it amazing....they never found out who was involved in that??? Just look at everything that has changed since 9/11. Are your rights the same as they were? Does the Government "know" anything more about you, your family, where you work, what you do? Are they looking into your personal information legally, without your knowledge? Do you feel safer?? I surely dont. I feel like I have been raped. Its only going to get worse. They have the wheels in motion now. It gave the Government the reason to go into a phonied up war, to make the Military Ind. Complex their billions of dollars, and to use us, and our children to do their dirty work in a country we have no business even being in. Thanks for starting this tread Jack. You are right. Just my opinion, FWIW.

thanks-smitty

The number of the police car does matter, as the number remembered by Roberts matched a DPD car that had been sold to a private dealer, and may have been resold and on the streets at the time.

I think Robert Howard found more details of this line of inquiry.

In addition, I would think that Roberts' veracity would be higher than that of the Dallas PD on issues involving complicity of its officers.

BK

Jim, Interesting theory. It has been disscussed before, but not in much detail, as there was no "real" evidence of it happening, just Ms. Roberts word, and most would agree that it was a signal of some type, but for what? Yours sounds logical, and Im going to think on that one for a while. Bill, I never heard that about the "car" with that # being sold, publically or other wise. That throws a whole new spin on things, as to what may have possibly have reallly happened at that point. Now you have to begin to think...........what else may have that car have done prior, during, and after the assassination?????? Now both of you guys got my head really going now!!! lol!! If you can Bill, let me know where i an find out more about Robert Howards findings. Just my opinion FWIW. thanks--smitty

Tom Purvis

has I suppose entered this thread as an excuse to probably for the ten thousandth time, to re-re-re-re-explain to us, his famous "TWIG THEORY".

Per usual, I expect that Tom will take over this thread by posting so much gibberish that anyone wanting to correspond will be disuaded by knowing that they must re-re-read Tom's ridiculous BS about twigs separating FMJ bullets from their core.

Tom finds it necessary to post a military photo of himself in uniform to impress those of you without military experience. The truth is, that the picture of Tom is no doubt at least thirty years old !

Tom, there are many on this forum, including myself that would probably put your military experience to shame!

Several years ago I complained to the forum administration that Tom Purvis was monopolizing this forum by having eleven different posts...all on the same topics....which of course were the twig theory and his Dealey Plaza land surveys.

His apparent distaste for my complaint has apparently not been forgotten, so he frquently spews venom whenever he sees my name.

To the rest of the forum, I apologize. I well realized and so stated that what I was posting was speculation. However, most of what we each believe regarding 11/22/63 is in fact speculative. There are a "few facts" which most of us accept, and from there we attempt in our minds to construct a scenario. I am an "out of the box" type thinker. I see no point in attempting to impress some very learned members of this forum by "parroting" back and forth much of the same gibberish that has been parroted back and forth for forty years.

I will "pat myself on the back" by saying that my speculation, if given some thought, makes much more sense than many. If we do not speculate...what should we do? I do not foresee earth shattering evidence being made available to the research community in any reasonable period of time.

I feel that we should take what we have in hand and see how much that we can build with it.

As for Tom Purvis.....I expect this to be the last time that I will ever type his name.

Charlie Black

Charlie, Thanks for the post. This subject has been disscussed, and im sure it wont be the last. [but well worth talking about] I believe he never owned the gun, or had any connection to it. For starters, the gun had no prints on it, "anywhere", except those that Day said he supposedly "found" under the stock, after the FBI already said there were none. Day couldnt even prove the prints were there, after claiming he had found them. They couldnt produce his actual "order form" for the gun, and no other proof he actually recieved it positively. [it was all fabricated] Marina wouldnt have known a gun from a shovel! Anything she claimed, as to Oswald owning a rifle, was coerced from the authorities. Probably with the deportation threat. When she finally testified, she had her testimony down pat, after being very well prepped to everything she had to say to 'convict" her husband. The clincher was to say that he was to have used the rifle to take a "pot-shot" at Walker with it! As far as "curtain rods" who knows. it surely wasnt a gun. same for the "paper".The authorities and later [the Warren Commision] had an easy time tying him to the gun, after the rifle range set up [and making a scene there], getting the scope mounted/sighted/shimmed [take your pick], and the icing on the cake, "finding" the hidden "alledged assassins weapon" in the building, on the floor where he was working! All of this BS was shoveled down the throats of a shaken, distraught, believing, country. I cant remember where i read it, but someone [dont hold me to it] in the CIA?? was told to order several M/Carcanos at some point, and that person was really puzzled by that request at the time. [maybe someone can fill me in on that episode, where it was written, and correct me if im wrong] All in all, it was a joke from the start. I think you could probably say the same thing about his ".38 Special". [the one that may have been "planted/taken from him in the theatre as he was arrested] Anyway Charlie, [as i always try to end MY posts] Just MY opinion, FWIW. LOL!

thanks-smitty

You can watch all three parts of this documentary (The Final Chapter 2003) on Youtube, in 9 minute segments. I was fortunate enough to have a relative order me a DVD copy as a Christmas present the night it first aired on A&E. I understand that it is extremely difficult to obtain, as a ban was placed on it several days after it's debut. It's filled with really great information. I highly recommend it -

episode 1 - The Smoking Gun, segment 1 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNTeQ9ckmD8

episode 1 - The Smoking Gun, segment 2 – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAW-bxxZfcM

episode 1 - The Smoking Gun, segment 3 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmMXfBgjsh0

episode 1 - The Smoking Gun, segment 4 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO5PAmCsw0I

episode 1 - The Smoking Gun, segment 5 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMJMqbWJLQI

episode 2 - The Love Affair, segment 1 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ry3DrsN9PY

episode 2 - The Love Affair, segment 2 --http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRLDm7YT25w

episode 2 - The Love Affair, segment 3 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBbe0jexWn4

episode 2 - The Love Affair, segment 4 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGNyprupDTU

episode 2 - The Love Affair, segment 5 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZyJ1APE6Lc

episode 3 - The Guilty Men, segment 1 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaWUcyjAeIk

episode 3 - The Guilty Men, segment 2 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05AsvqWfzts

episode 3 - The Guilty Men, segment 3 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJPWhn6P5fE

episode 3 - The Guilty Men, segment 4 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut-4QXzNBno

episode 3 - The Guilty Men, segment 5 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mzZGK9tNyM

I just read Harrison Edward Livingstone's most recent book on the assassination - The Radical Right And The Murder Of John F. Kennedy - and was surprised to find that he believes Baker's story of her affair with Oswald. I thought he would consider her another nut job or opportunist out to make a buck with a conjured story. I believe that the bulk of her story is true. She sounds like she's telling the truth - at least to me anyway.

Peter, the only time i saw TMWKK was on the 40th anniverary in 2003 on the History Channel. I believed it aired every night of week [m-f] for two hours. I dont know if all of the installments were included or not. I havent seen it since. [if it was on again i missed it] I know the Johnson family raised all kinds of problems for them, along with others, and i belive it was banned, as stated earlier. Everything else since then has been basically "pro-Oswald" Dale Myers bunk on the History Channel. [They] must have really put some pressure on them after they showed it in 03', for them to all of a sudden start showing "pro Oswald" junk.

thanks-smitty

Yes atleast I am familiar with the name Robert Groden. Didn't he work with the HSCA? Also worked at the Time-Life - magazine, and saw the Zapruder footage "early", if I am not mistaking. I'll check out the site. Thank you.

Welcome aboard TJ! Nice to have you here. I love the actual "live" rolling footage. Thats the first "live" film Ive seen here on the Forum and i love it. Sorry i cant add anything more than what the other members have already added, but if you could run the other footage i think you said you have, might be a great thing to check out. Personsally I truly believe there are a few other "films" taken before, during, and after the assassination that noone has yet ever seen. I also truly believe that someday, one or more of these "films" will finally be available to the public, after someone passes away, and family members will be allowed to release them. That i believe, is what is finally going to be one of the big "breaks", or even solve this 40 some odd year conspiracy case. Again, welcome aboard. We are glad to have you as a member.

thanks-smitty

I think it could have been as simple as a single conversation between two (or possibly a few more) wealthy and powerful people. The rest gets entangled because of that vast wealth and power and obscures the view.

Ask yourself a very simple question. Who was the most powerful man in the country in 1963? Would he have had reason to want John Kennedy dead?

The power that killed JFK was absolute. It didn’t hope to get away with this crime. It didn’t think it could. It knew.

Who does/did the CIA, the U.S. military, Allen Dulles, John McCloy, Maxwell Taylor really work for?

If this power had hold of the presidency, and had for a long time, would it let go?

Terry Mauro, what do you think?

Great thread Carl. Yeah, the CIA was pissed, and so were alot of other people towards JFK. Mafia [beacuse of Bobby], Hoover [age retirement], CIA [bay of Pigs], Texas power oil elite [oil depletion allowance], LBJ [many reasons-mainly getting booted by JFK, and upcoming Baker scandal, plus same reasons the Texas oil men had], Pissed off Cubans [bay of Pigs, etc]. Everybody posting here is correct on one thing...... it took power and lots of $$$$. I personally like Mr. Sprauges title, "The Power Control Group". This group consisted of quite a few of this countrys most powerful and most wealthy people. They included higher ranking politicians [including LBJ], Texas "Big Oil Money" [Hunt, Murchison, and others] Hoover, and the CIA, plus probably some of the countrys leading media mogals. They all had an ax to grind, and knew what had to be done for all of their sakes. Cliff, personally i dont think it was primarally intended to start a third world war with Cuba, because if it was their main intention, they could have easily have done that by setting Oswald up to have shown that Cuba and Oswalds ties were the ones behind it. But instead, they did everything they could to show that it was only a "demented lone nut", who did this on his own accord, with noone else involved pulling his strings to do their bidding. LBJ, Hoover [and CIA], along with the almighty Warren Commision only let the public see what they wanted them to see, and hid everything else so no one was the wiser. Stan, I think you are asking the right questions here, and i think you are right. This "Power Control Group" had all of the right people in the right positions to control everything that needed to be done. They had plenty of oil money to get the best hired hit men in the business, and money to be thrown in to the right people in all of the right places. They had the right media people to put out what they wanted the people to hear, and the countrys most distinguished men in the "Warren Commision", who by the way, could not be questioned because of their "high esteem", to come to the only conclusion they were told to come to. After JFK was gone, LBJ got what he always wanted, his "best buddy" Hoover got to stay on forever, the CIA was happy, the Cubans were happy, the Texas Oil Men kept their depleation allowance, the Milatary Industrial Complex was extremely happy because they were set to make their billions of $ because of the escalading Vietnam war that LBJ was going to make sure was continued until he was out of office and longer, and the Mafia felt they gave the Kennedys what they diserved. So all in all, everybody pretty much felt good about what they accomplished. The only drawback was they didnt get Cuba back. Just my opinion FWIW.

thanks-smitty

John

Remember the Secret Service is part of the Treasury Department and Kennedy had put a notorious republican businessman in this sensitive cabinet position, Clarence Douglass Dillon. Everything about the Secret service performance, the detour, the walking speed, the delayed reaction to fire, everything flows from the C. Douglass Dillon angle........he was sort of Kennedy's Andrew Mellon.

One of the most important aspects of the Kennedy assassination concerns the security arrangements of the motorcade through Dallas. According to the Warren Commission the event was organised by two men: Kenneth O'Donnell (special assistant to the President) and Special Agent Winston Lawson. Although O’Donnell

I believe that Secret Service control shifted out of the Treasury Department since Kennedy's time. In any event, this C Douglass Dillon connection is an interesting one.

If you havent read, or started reading Vince Palamara's book "Survivors Guilt", please do. I started it, and i havent had a chance to get back to it for a while, but it is a very good read. It goes into great detail, with interviews, past interviews, and alot of long hard work. The buck got passed around quite a bit after the assassination, as to who made what decisions, and who did what! Nobody seemed to know anything! [isnt that odd??] They blew the assignment, and they new it. The heat was on. Anyway, if you have the chance, read his book. Its online now. Check one of the old Forum topics from a few weeks ago, and you will find the site address. I forget who posted it, but thanks for letting us know!

thanks--smitty

How long, prior to 11-22, do you believe the conspirators had to plan the assassination?

In other words, from making the decision, gathering the team, selecting the locations, deciding who would be in various positions, securing firearms, etc.

Did they have one week to decide? A month?

Do you believe they took as long as six months to plan the assassination in Dealey Plaza?

MARK, JFK WAS DOOMED FROM THE MOMENT THAT LBJ ACCEPTED THE VICE PRESIDENT POSITION ON THE DEMOCRATIC TICKET, A DECISION THAT WAS MADE AT THE LA HOTEL DURING THE 1960 DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION. THAT'S WHERE PHIL GRAHAM OF THE WASINGTON POST AND JOHN CONNALLY CONVINCED LBJ TO TAKE THE SECOND SPOT, CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT 20% OR 1 OUT OF 5 US PRESIDENTS DIED IN OFFICE. LBJ REPLIED THAT THOSE ODDS COULD BE IMPROVED.

BK

This thing was so well thought out and carried out. It was not something that was put together in a few months, or even a year. I agree totally with Mr. Kelly on this point.

And I totally agree with the total agreement. I don't think there's any way LBJ would have given up his post as senate majority leader for a warm pitcher of spit unless he knew he'd be climbing over the real President's body. I'm not convinced that Madeline Brown really heard all she said she heard, but I do believe that the essence of her account is accurate. There's no way that two men as evil as Johnson and HL Hunt would sit back and hope...

I'm even leaning towards thinking that the Bay of Pigs was a trap for President Kennedy. I envision a motive of making the new president look like an incompetent, and more important getting the right wing cuban exiles to dispise him. By priming the exiles in this way, they could then be used by Johnson and Hunt and the CIA/mob--who had their own motives, protecting war profits among them--to do the dirty work.

The assassination became urgent for LBJ in Nov of '63 because of the Bobby Baker case.

But JFK became president when an array of snakes were poised to strike. He might have been spared if he'd turned out to be a like minded snake, but he turned out to be a fascist's nightmare--a president who thought he worked for the people.

Thanks for the Armstrong speech Peter. A great piece of work. I agree with most of you on this. I beleive LBJ {and cronies} were figuring a way to get rid of JFK from the time he took office. LBJ was not going to be happy sitting there playing second fiddle to anyone. He knew it was just a token position. He didnt work all those years to be the "second man". [see my post in "The Assassination of JFK"] The ducks began to start lining up from the beginning after the Bay of Pigs fiasco, and it snowballed from there. Many people began to have reasons to get rid of JFK for their own reasons. [Mafia, CIA, Cubans, Hoover, Texas oil men.....etc] Alot of people who could be blamed for the involvement, which is what made it perfect........it turned into complicated mystery. With Ed Clarks help, LBJ had no problem getting things started, and finding more than willing conspirators to help him along the way. FWIW

thanks--smitty

I think that the assassination was one of the best planned ever. I've been reading up on it for about ten years and I think that there were a number of groups responsible, that they all covered up for each other and that they put Lyndon Johnson forward as 'their man'.

The mafia, the military, the CIA, Texan oilmen and Lyndon Johnson all had reasons to kill JFK, and I think they all played a part.

For many years I believed that the conspiracy involved the Mafia, Anti-Castro Activists and the CIA.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=508

However, over the last few weeks I have changed my mind and now believe it was a plot that involved the FBI and the Texas Oil Industry. Although it was carried out on behalf of Lyndon Johnson I am not convinced he had knowledge of the plot until the last moment (probably organized by Edward A. Clark and covered up by the FBI).

There are several reasons why I believe this. One was reading the recently published Blood, Money and Power. The book is written by Barr McClellan, one of Johnson’s lawyers. McClellan clearly does not know the full story but does provide a few names that I have been able to follow up. This includes Clint Peoples, Billie Sol Estes and Mac Wallace. Via the internet I discovered that Estes has been working with William Reymond in writing a book called JFK, the Last Standing Man (a reference to the fact that he was the last one left alive who knows what happened). The book has already been published in France (Le Dernier Temoin). I was in contact with William Reymond yesterday and I am convinced he has the full story of why and how Kennedy was killed.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=565

John, you are certainly right. I read BP and M quite a while ago, and i found many points that just verified what i thought for some time. Alot of people blew BM's book off as alot of hogwash [no proof, come to your own conclusion...etc], but the fact remains that when you put everything together.............it all points to the Texas "Power Elite". LBJ had the most to gain, [Presidency, control over escalading the Vietnam war, keeping Hoover on for years to come {best buddy}, keeping the oil depletion allowance, etc. etc....] All of the money that was in Texas at that time was unbeleivable! With Hunt, Murchinson, and others, they could buy and control everything. They all had ties to the Military Ind. Complex, and stood to make billions of dollars, which they all did. Hoover made his share, and kept everything in line for covering up whatever loose ends came up concerning the assassination. With all of the "dirt" he had on all of the major politcal players, he could get anything done that had to be done. He also had tie ins with Nixon, and all of the other "heavy" players at that time. Plus, LBJ had to do what ever he could to save his political career, after the threat of all of the dirt from the Bobby Baker scandal, and whatever else would "fallout" just from that scandal. He knew that JFK wasnt bringing him back, and if that happened....he was done politically. He wasnt going to go down without a fight, and with all of the other people who wanted JFK [for whatever other reasons, especially the Mafia] dead, he had plenty of people willing to follow him and do whatever was needed to get it done. With all of the control he and Clark had in Texas, they could get whatever done as far as the coverup and help from the Dallas PD. As far as the shooters, who knows. They surely could get the best. With the CIA's help, [and Hoovers, along with the Mafia] there would be no problem finding the right people to get the job done. Following the assassination, he had control of it ALL. He had the Warren Commision in his pocket, [i can just imagine what dirt Hoover had on most of them] and they did just as they were told. They covered it all up, while making it look like they did everything possible to PROVE that there was no conspiracy. LBJ was a skunk, plain and simple. Just look at all of the scandals and murders he was supposedly involved in, just starting from 48's 'Box 13" scandal. Anything that ever threatened him politically, to the point of ruining his career, he or Ed Clark made sure it was taken care of permanantly. He would stop at nothing to keep him from advancing his polital career. The JFK assassination was just another "roadblock" in his "Texas Power Group's" way of moving ahead in their pursuit of more power and money. Just my opinion FWIW.

thanks--smitty

Sharon Friedberg, a spokeswoman for the building's owners, said the museum has been paying a lower rental rate for what had been the building's most valuable retail space.

Moving the museum allows the owners to charge the market rate, she said.

"We really wanted retail in the building, and this was the only space that opened to the street without requiring people to walk through a lobby," Ms. Friedberg said.

The same thing that killed JFK is mirrored in this minor 'death' of the museum....but casts the big shadow of the death of America - the power of money over all else.

WHAT A SHAME!!!!!! Speaking for myself, i think that the museum is sort of a landmark for all who visit Dealey Plaza, wheather they are just visitors, or serious researchers/buffs. You dont go to DP, and not visit the Museum. A wonderful place to spend hours looking through all kinds of historical memorabilia, films, and just chatting with other like minded "buffs". Not to mention a place to find very cool out of print books on the assassination.. The thought of it not being there is heartbreaking. I surely hope they stay open, hopefully in the same building, or if not, not far from where they are. Its sad to hear that they cant, or, just break even. I dont know about anyone else, but i am going to send Mr. Bowden a donation, to help out with his relocation, and any other expenses needed to keep the place open. Anyone here who feels the same as i do, please help out if you feel led. I would hate to see it pass away like many other things concerning the assassination. We need to keep places like Mr. Bowdens museum open and active for others, and future generation "buffs' alike.

thanks-smitty

Michael, I forgot to thank you for starting this post. If possible, can you keep us posted as to what is decided 'later this week" by Mr. Bowden as to his plans? Thank you in advance.--smitty

I for one, am going to donate some money.

Thank you Peter! Hopefully we can get some more people here on the site rolling along with us and help out with the preservation of the museum. Im sure alot of others here feel the same as we do about this situation. For anyone interested in sending in a donation, i have the following address:

The Consiracy Museum

110 So. Market St.

Dallas, Tx 75202 Phone # 214-741-3040

thanks in advance--smitty

Peter,

Yes, that was the photo of Greer that I remembered seeing. Thanks.

Ron

Here he is with a trophy.

Mark, Do you know the date and circumstances of this photo?

FWIW, Reading Mr. Palamara's book "Survivors Guilt", I have found that he goes into great detail concerning alot of the answers to alot of peoples questions concerning what went on, who was involved in the security, and who made the final desicions concerning JFK's protection. Very good book that covers the nagging questions that people have been asking for years about the SS protection on the fateful Dallas trip. The personal interveiws of most of the agents involved is very revealing. Having the pleasure of reading it on line now is very nice. Read it if you have the time.

thanks--smitty

Sharon Friedberg, a spokeswoman for the building's owners, said the museum has been paying a lower rental rate for what had been the building's most valuable retail space.

Moving the museum allows the owners to charge the market rate, she said.

"We really wanted retail in the building, and this was the only space that opened to the street without requiring people to walk through a lobby," Ms. Friedberg said.

The same thing that killed JFK is mirrored in this minor 'death' of the museum....but casts the big shadow of the death of America - the power of money over all else.

WHAT A SHAME!!!!!! Speaking for myself, i think that the museum is sort of a landmark for all who visit Dealey Plaza, wheather they are just visitors, or serious researchers/buffs. You dont go to DP, and not visit the Museum. A wonderful place to spend hours looking through all kinds of historical memorabilia, films, and just chatting with other like minded "buffs". Not to mention a place to find very cool out of print books on the assassination.. The thought of it not being there is heartbreaking. I surely hope they stay open, hopefully in the same building, or if not, not far from where they are. Its sad to hear that they cant, or, just break even. I dont know about anyone else, but i am going to send Mr. Bowden a donation, to help out with his relocation, and any other expenses needed to keep the place open. Anyone here who feels the same as i do, please help out if you feel led. I would hate to see it pass away like many other things concerning the assassination. We need to keep places like Mr. Bowdens museum open and active for others, and future generation "buffs' alike.

thanks-smitty

Michael, I forgot to thank you for starting this post. If possible, can you keep us posted as to what is decided 'later this week" by Mr. Bowden as to his plans? Thank you in advance.--smitty

Sharon Friedberg, a spokeswoman for the building's owners, said the museum has been paying a lower rental rate for what had been the building's most valuable retail space.

Moving the museum allows the owners to charge the market rate, she said.

"We really wanted retail in the building, and this was the only space that opened to the street without requiring people to walk through a lobby," Ms. Friedberg said.

The same thing that killed JFK is mirrored in this minor 'death' of the museum....but casts the big shadow of the death of America - the power of money over all else.

WHAT A SHAME!!!!!! Speaking for myself, i think that the museum is sort of a landmark for all who visit Dealey Plaza, wheather they are just visitors, or serious researchers/buffs. You dont go to DP, and not visit the Museum. A wonderful place to spend hours looking through all kinds of historical memorabilia, films, and just chatting with other like minded "buffs". Not to mention a place to find very cool out of print books on the assassination.. The thought of it not being there is heartbreaking. I surely hope they stay open, hopefully in the same building, or if not, not far from where they are. Its sad to hear that they cant, or, just break even. I dont know about anyone else, but i am going to send Mr. Bowden a donation, to help out with his relocation, and any other expenses needed to keep the place open. Anyone here who feels the same as i do, please help out if you feel led. I would hate to see it pass away like many other things concerning the assassination. We need to keep places like Mr. Bowdens museum open and active for others, and future generation "buffs' alike.

thanks-smitty

Premier issue....

Thanks guys! Great stuff! I always knew there was the JFK connection with Flynt, but i never knew it went sooo deep. I will be reading up on this for quite a while!

thanks-smitty

Seems to me that tree has been recently - 'pruned'?

EBC

Rich, whats the approx. date on the photo? Is it right after the assassination? Personally i dont believe the trees had much effect on any of the shooters. As an earleir post pointed out, there may have been at least one shooter from one of the TSBD windows, but I believe there were roof shooters, not only from the TSBD, but possibly the Dal-Tex, Records, and Courts buildings. As Ashton pointed out, very possible shooter from inside the Courts building. As anyone who has any knowledge about professional killers, they are not going to even take a chance trying to shoot anywhere close to [or through] a tree. Anywhere above the 5th floor, i would think [from being there and looking out of those windows not long ago] there would have had a clear shot. Professional hit men know what they are doing, and dont make mistakes such as hitting a tree. A hit such as that, they would not send a boy, to do a mans job, if you will. Considering, the chances of hitting Jackie, or Nellie, would have been a very risky shot shooting around/or close to a tree. Hitting one of them would have been THE most horrific things to have happen. Alot of people can speculate that one or more of the shots fired hit one of the Oaks, and was deflected, but i would personally think that the errant shots were diversions of some type. Just my opinion, FWIW.

thanks-smitty