Michael G. Smith

Yeah, but Clinton cries too - or at least pretends to. (I always get emotional too when I see him bite his widdle lip.) Clinton usually doesn't bite his lip to fight off tears, he does it because it's sexy. And it's no wonder it's wasted on you; you're not the target audience ...Ron. Myra, Do you mean Clinton is trying to seduce the entire female population and it is lost on those of us of a male persuasion? lol Hope you don't feel slighted Peter. President Clinton is attractive, but he's a traditional kinda guy. President Clinton is part that faction that believes in abortions, tree hugging, global warming ,homosexals ! Compare the the deaths in Irag, compared to those committed by the left wing killers through abortion! And while you are at it,go back and look at the coup in 1960 when JFK stoled the election from Richard Nixon! Wake up Myra,you are one of those sheeple!!!!!!!!! Ron, Im surely not a psychologist, but i think he is crying tears of joy just thinking of a third Bush being elected President in the not so distant future to carry on his warmonger attitude! LOL! Jeb wins it by a hair after a ballot counting problem in his home state [sound familiar?], and is blamed on voting machine malfunctions! The fianl result comes after weeks of recounting, after his opponent had already been declared the victor!! thanks-smitty

Another noteworthy omission in Caro's tome: no mention at all of Madeleine Brown, whom LBJ (according to Brown) was also "dealing with" in this time period. (At least one LBJ mistress is named in the book.) I wanted to point this out, but don't mean to divert the thread from its subject. (Brown has been dealt with enough elsewhere.) John, I haven't read the book, and i dont know who the "confessor' could be, but from all knowledge of the muders Ed Clark and LBJ were suppossedly involved in, it doesnt surprise me that there were more people involved in them other than Mac Wallace. With all of the underhanded things LBJ was involved in, just using the 1948 "Box 13" scandal as a starting point, he had alot of people to shut up. Mac Wallace was his most well know enforcer, but im sure there had to be others he had to use over the years to take care of his dirty work. Not to mention all of the other things Ed Clark was involved in. They basically controlled all of Texas, but im sure they had to "expand" to other areas of the country as well. Using others that they had the goods on, in one way or another, they could get these "others" to take care of all of their "problems". Kinser, Marshall, and even his own sister Josefa, were only just a few of the many people who were needed to be silenced. Powerful people such as LBJ and Clark, couldnt go through all of their underhanded political moves, without having certain people knowing what they were up to. While he was on his way up the political ladder, he surely couldnt afford to have someone come forward and expose him for what he truly was. The terrible fear he had of someone ruining what he had worked so hard for all of those years, wheather legally or underhandedly, would have caused him to do "anything" to prevent that from happening. Any thoughts on his sister death? thanks-smitty

***************************************************** "that the REAL and COVERT space projects are being run by these techno-fascists in the CIA and NSA behind-the-scenes, who are making every effort to keep America in general from establishing a foothold in space. Kimory claims that Wernher von Braun and Kurt Davis, heads of Kennedy Space Center and Marshall Space Flight Center, were both active Nazi S.S. agents even after they were brought into America with the help of Nazi infiltrators and sympathizers in U.S. Intelligence. James Garrison had arrested Clay Shaw on conspiracy to murder JFK, linking him with the CIA. However, when Garrison's star witness David Ferrie was found dead only a few days before Clay Shaw's trial, Garrison did not have enough against Shaw to make a conviction. It was later discovered in a FOIA document in 1977 that Clay Shaw HAD BEEN in the CIA since 1949. Garrison also linked Fred L. Crisman to Clay Shaw, and in fact sources indicate that Crisman was the first one Clay Shaw called when Shaw learned that he was in trouble. Is was discovered that Shaw was in business with European NAZIS and FASCISTS who were involved in covert operations sponsored by the CIA, according to the article. Shaw was also allegedly tied-in with the O.S.S. Crisman, who worked as a go-between in the Military-Industrial establishment (especially the aerospace companies which were the major beneficiaries of Project Paperclip) was believed by Garrison to be a 'middle man' within a deep-level intelligence network, working in- between those who gave the orders (which included assassinations) and those who carried them out. Garrison also believed that Crisman was involved with the men who carried out the JFK assassination, and Crisman had also made several trips to Dallas just prior to JFK's death, which is why Garrison subpoenaed him. Crisman was also involved with a government program to 'help gypsies', was tied-in with the O.S.S., and was a member of a secret fraternity of former Intelligence officers, and was also involved with organized crime, according to Garrison's investigations. Of course the strangest aspect of the Crisman connection was that it was Fred L. Crisman himself who handed over 'metal-slag' samples that were reportedly found after a 'UFO' [one of six 'donut- shaped' vehicles observed -- remember, the Nazis had developed jet-turbine engines that were 'donut-shaped' in configuration rather than cylindrical] dropped the substance over the Maurey Island area near Tacoma, Washington in 1947, killing a dog and injuring one person who was on a boat in Tacoma harbor in the process. Crisman handed the samples to two Army G-2 Intelligence officers, Capt. William L. Davidson and Lt. Frank M. Brown. On their way to Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio (where several German Peenemunde scientists reportedly worked) with the 'classified' material, their plane crashed and both were killed. News reports of the time mentioned that the plane MAY have been sabotaged. Frank Brown's widow did in fact state her conviction that her husband was murdered. In addition to this, a particularly persistent reporter into the Maurey Island episode died shortly after the investigation, and Kenneth Arnold (who had his Mt. Rainier sighting and almost fatal engine failure only a few days later) reported that his room, where he often discussed the Maurey Island case with United Airlines Captain E. J. Smith, had been bugged. Kimory suggests that the Maurey Island UFO may have been a 'hybrid' of the Nazi UFO designs developed by the Military-Industrial Establishment and PROJECT PAPERCLIP, which might explain the mystery. [For more information on 'Project Paperclip', see also: SECRET AGENDA, by Linda Hunt. St. Martins Press. 1991]. * * * * * * *" Thanks for that piece of info, Lee. It never ceases to amaze me as to what kind of snakes and serpents always manage to wriggle their venomous way into the heart of our seats of gov. These bastards may be of the highest caliber with respect to intellect, based upon their supposedly pure Aryan blood lines, but from what I've studied in the realm of genetics and inherited characteristics is this. The purer you attempt to narrow the gene pool in an effort to create a master race, or to isolate a perfect trait for perpetuity, the more at risk you become in creating an anomaly, or freak-ish, if not downright flawed aberration, be it an Idiot Savant, or a Tay-Sachs syndrome, to name a couple of the more milder variety, or even Sickle Cell anemia, to bring the analogy into a more familiar perspective. In any event, this how I've come to view the people associated with that philosophical mindset. They may be highly intelligent, rich, powerful, yet they're also dangerously monstrous, in their mendacious lust for power and control. But, they're also to viewed as psychotically deranged "bad seeds," in need of eradication, harsh as that may sound, but more likely along the lines of institutionalization, preferably in high security lock-down facilities. As you can readily understand my abhorrance of these super-intellectually psychotic individuals as witnessed by their total disregard for anything that doesn't conform to their twisted image of "white" perfection. Strength of the human race can only be assured by the process of natural selection, or survival of the fittest, incorporating a variety of racially mixed bloodlines. This is definitely not accomplished by isolating one particular gene pool from the rest under the mistaken notion of creating a super, pure race. Just witness any pure-bred animal show, or the crowned royalty of Europe. You may get the desired results, but you'll also get the undesirable abberrations, as well. And, that is not an experiment that bodes well when it comes to trying to refine the human race, simply because some half-witted in-bred says so. But, that's just MHO. Terry, You are so right, concerning genetics. I breed Dobermans with my son. I have done alot of research on breeding. Alot of breeders will only "line" breed. Meaning, once they reach their desired results in their dogs, they only breed within that family. Son/Daughter, Brother/Sister, Mother/Son, etc, etc....That is something i would suggest staying away from completely. Genetic problems, health issues, temperment problems, are just a few problems encountered. They will argue until blue in the face about the benefits. You may end up with a genetic lookalike, but will they turn on you and kill your kid?? FWIW anyway. thanks--smitty

I saw this a few day's ago on a website entitled - JFK Assassination: The British Connection By Mike Royden. 44. British mark on Oswald's gun? Letter Frewin to John Rudd. On 22 November 1963, a British revolver was found in paper bag on roof of TSBD.See: Summers latest Vanity Fair article. Don't have at present I am sure there is a reference to it. Also some FBI?documents have been released about it. Irrelevant take out. Although Royden offers the disclaimer that, he has not had the time to check out all the 'blurbs' listed on the page, [plus, I have no idea how old the info cited is, mid 1990's?] I thought I would include the above, has anyone else heard of the above item? A revolver being placed on the roof of the TSBD if true, would explain the need and use of a ladder, would it not? Bob, I never heard of a "pistol" being found on the roof, but i have been trying to find out about the "rifle" found on the roof. I saw pictures of it being checked by DPD that was filmed by Erie Mentesana. Definately not the M/C. No sling or scope. I dont know if they would need a ladder to access the roof or not, i would think that there would be a roof access from inside. [steps and door or hatch] Plus i believe there was a fire escape on the Houston St. side or in back. they may have needed it for reaching storage shelves mounted on the wall or suspended from the ceilings if they had any. I was never on the top floor of the TSBD so its just a guess. Hope this helps. thanks--smitty

Nag, nag, nag. Alllllllll right! Sheesh! Just for you, Peter. Since there's no record I know of showing exactly what vehicles were where at the relevant time (and you didn't supply any reference), I've used some arial shots from as close to the time of the assassination as I can determine, and put in just some of the vehicles (all copies of the same one, really) that I feel would be most applicable (if applicable at all) to your point. I also have textured the parking lot area to more closely approximate the dirt/mud lot it was, in place of the darker asphalt I had there before. So here it is, best that I can do to accommodate you for now. I've left the friendly neighborhood cop standing by the fence about where "Badge Man" supposedly was, and this is a somewhat wider-angle shot than before, I think, but it'll do. The first image is using the "generic" ambient light of the modeler without sunlight/shadows, then with sunlight/shadows set for 22 November at 12:29 p.m.: Nobody ever even seems to consider that the automobiles in the parking lot would be every bit as much as a deterent to any would-be assassin as they might be some kind of "concealment," because there is absolutely no guarantee at all that someone with a car parked there might not decide to drive their car somewhere during lunch. (Never mind a watch tower overlooking the entire lot that's probably manned 24/7 for track switching.) The whole thing is simply preposterous. So I know not what course others may take, but as for me, I am done chasing down bottomless rabbit holes after "Badge Man" and "Black Dog Man." Ya'll go on without me. Don't forget to take a lunch. Ashton Great thread.........continues! A couple of things. Discussing about who was behind the fence, and where. I have always thought, but i have never heard it mentioned was, that if someone had "backed" a car up to the fence and opened the trunk, some one could have [note i said "could have"] shot from an opened trunk. They would have had "cover" from Bowers direction, elevated position to shot over the fence, and when they were done, they could pull the trunk lid down, and they were hidden. From what i recall, no one ever checked the trunks of any cars that day. Maybe they did, but i dont recall anyone mentioning it. Its just a thought FWIW. Also, keeping up on this thread, i havent heard anybody mention anything about Ed Hoffmans testimony about what he saw. You can take what he stated FWIW, but he is worth mentioning. You can read about him in detail in "Crossfire" from page 81 to 85. He went into some detail in his testimony that alot of people would not have known about, so it may seem credible. Just thought i would add my 2 cents worth! thanks-smitty

Hi Mark, I've been trying to find a space in the posting sequence to thank you for bringing me up to speed on the Mercer incident. What I find most striking about it is how utterly pedestrian (I don't find puns; puns find me) it all is—except, of course, for the dramatic description (after the fact of a shooting, dontcha' know) of "what appeared to be a gun case" by someone who, as far as I know, wouldn't know a gun case from a fingernail file case. As Lane points out, the testimony by both Mercer and Bowers about "two men" is consistent, and taken together is all very consistent (allowing for them taking their jackets off as the day warmed up) with two men doing some kind of work they needed to do—under the watchful eye of policemen—then moving their truck and hanging around to see the President go by—still under the watchful eye of policemen who probably had been watching them the whole time. I find an endless source of entertainment in the way various threads seem to bring themselves together, because I've just now suffered through Cliff Varnell's most recent torturous twisting of Bowers's testimony about "two men" into something utterly unrecognizable in order to support an unsupportable position, consistently ignoring the most crucial facts in Bowers's actual statements. Like, f'r'instance (my bold emphasis added): MR. BALL: Now, were there any people standing on the high side-- high ground between your tower and where Elm Street goes down under the underpass toward the mouth of the underpass? MR. BOWERS: Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about mid-twenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket. ...On the triple underpass, there were two policemen. One facing each direction, both east and west. There was one railroad employee, a signal man there with the Union Terminal Co., and two welders that worked for the Fort Worth Welding firm, and there was also a laborer's assistant furnished by the railroad to these welders. MR. BALL: You saw those before the President came by, you saw those people? MR. BOWERS: Yes; they were there before and after. This is at least an approximation of what Bowers described about the two men at issue and at least one of the policemen at that end of the overpass: Oooo. Sinister. (By the way, my 2D people placed in a 3D model always "face the camera" as a feature of the software, so please don't anybody rush to tell me they are looking in the wrong direction. For these purposes, it's entirely immaterial.) Varnell would have us believe that one or both of these men, in a flash, transmuted into their alter-egos, "Black Dog Man" and "Badge Man" (don't ask me where Badge Man's trusty sidekick and spotter, Hard-Hat Man materialized from, or how Badge Man got a badge—I simply don't know), dashed 120' down the length of the fence (in mud, you betcha'), got a gun or guns from somewhere unknown, shot the President of the United States (at least twice), crumbled the gun(s) into magic dust (creating a puff of smoke, of course), then ran back the 120' (in mud, you betcha') to be standin' around whistling innocently the next time Bowers thought to glance over there again. (Gotta' watch them spooks every minute!) You know, I'm just a simple guy from simple roots, and somehow it sounds a lot more to me like these were working stiffs—possibly connected in some way with the welding job that had to get done, President or no president, possibly not—who had delivered some stuff to that area (seen by Ms. Mercer) and had hung around near the cops stationed there to see the Prez go by. And after Ms. Mercer heard the President had been shot, she decided those musta' been gun bags they wuz totin'. Meanwhile, as the Warren Commission (and others) drone on and on about complete dead-end nonsense, over at the other side of the ranch, almost utterly ignored: We have a team that has just been briefed by the CIA's worst and dirtiest, accommodatingly flown in by Tosh Plumlee and friends, that packs unnamed Cubans and a celebrity Mafioso into Dealey Plaza and God know what else. Tosh Plumlee—who, as the Fates and Furies would have it, just happens to have spent a so-far-unrevealed amount of time with Lee Harvey Oswald in "intelligence training matters." And I guess, for some reason (see Varnell above), I'm supposed to get all "Oooooooo! Ahhhhhhh!" about a couple of drudges hanging around, absolutely pinned between cops on the overpass and Bowers in the tower. And some people wonder why I seem to take on a bit of an edge now and then. Well, they shouldn't wonder: it's either that, or pop a vein. Ashton LMAO! Gotta watch those veins Ashton! -smitty

Yet another astounding thread. It looks like it, if believed, addresses the mysterious motorcade route change. It also makes Connelly look super suspicious, which begs the question "why the heck would he ride in the death car?" And it raises good points about the value of secretaries in investigative matters. Is there some reason that Evelyn Lincoln doesn't get more attention? Does she lack credibility? What John posted from her Kennedy & Johnson book are bombshells. It confirms so many suspicions. So about that autopsy illustration--anyone know who did it and where it can be found? Ms. Lincoln seemed to be a super lady. A true and loyal confidant. Johnson on the other hand, was nothing more than a low down skunk! Even after the "break" Kennedy gave him, he was sticking him in the back. He was one of the most despicable politicians ever elected to ANY position. By what i have read, Connally wasnt far behind, concerning Kennedy. It was mentioned about Brunos prior trip to Dallas for security checks for the "murdercade". Reading "Survivors Guilt", it goes into quite a bit of detail about all of the checks made, and by who. The amazing part is that most of the people involved with that, all came back with a positive attitude about the Dallas trip, with no real threats present! This was not long after the Stevenson incident! Amazing, to say the least. FWIW, 'Survivors Guilt" so far has been a very good read. thanks-smitty

I don't buy it. The assassination was designed to look like a conspiracy. They could hit JFK from that sweet spot behind the fence and if anybody got too wise they had a patsy named Jack in custody. Pure speculation, of course, but methinks if Oswald had been gunned down on Friday afternoon two guys in particular would have been sweating bullets -- Fidel Castro and Jack Lawrence. I think Jackie boy blew chunks back at the auto dealership cuz he realized he'd been set up. When Oswald was captured alive, the Castro-did-it scenario was pretty much dead. Plan B wasn't what the plotters had in mind. Cliff, Can you elaborate a little on your thoughts about Jack Lawrence? How do you think he was involved? I have always thought that he was involved in some way in the assassination, although alot of people wont agree with that. [just my opinion] I might get laughed out of here with this thought but here goes. In looking at people involved in the assassination, i always try to see who is who and put faces on people. One thing that struck me a while ago was, that to me anyway, Jack Lawrence looked strikingly similar to the Umbrella Man. I havent come across many photos of him, but the one that John has listed in his JFK assassination site under "Conspirators" is a well know photo of him. If you look at that photo, with the sport coat, shirt, hair, nose, etc...... [to me anyway], he looks very much like him. I know it may sound far fetched, but i havent come across many other people who look like the UM that were supposedly in DP that day. All of the photos i have seen of the UM that day, all look similar to Mr. Lawrence. Ok, ok, everybody stop laughing. Lol! Dont laugh me out of here too quickly. I just got in here! I figured i would go out on a limb and post what i thought. thanks--Smitty

Thanks again Aston. Very cool image. I dont know how you do it! I guess there isnt too much you cant do with your program! Your going to have a waiting list pretty soon, with people waiting to see their theory put into your images! It really enables you to put theorys to work, and to actually see what may have, or could have happened. Thanks. --smitty

Thanks so much Ashton! Those are great images, and i cant believe you got to them so fast!. [i was only kidding about doing them!! LOL] Even if they are off a bit, your images im sure are VERY close. The roofs look to be great positions to get off the shots that were fired. Shooting from the TSBD roof would also be in alignment for the OSWALD shots, and would fall into their theory. The angle from the Dal-Tex building also looks great. From what i understand, the buildings had "turrets", if you will, around the outer edges of the roofs. Perfect hiding spots until ready to shoot. Plus, if anyone did see anyone up there, they would probably figure them to be , Secret Service, Dallas PD, etc.... doing their protective duties. Shots from the Records or Courts buildings [cant wait to see them if you get them posted] would also, im sure, be perfect "ambush' sites. As stated earlier, emptying the Courts building, and sending "all available men" to the parking area, would have given the shooter, or shooters/spotters a perfect exit right out the front door if needed. If indeed, there was a rifle found on the TSBD roof, as stated and filmed, only ads to the theory of these shooters. It only makes sense, to me at least, that being out side, higher than anyone else, no chance of anyone "happening' across you inside, and also an easier escape. [lesser chance of anyone to see you leaving] Just my opion, FWIW. Thanks so much again for the images! --Smitty

It was suggested to me by another researcher that this man may have been Brewer. I read all of his interviews, reports, etc. - I found no indication supporting that possibility. Given the conflicting reports, seems more likely that it was the man in the balcony - or possibly the man in the first rows that pointed Oswald out. It would be great to simply ask Brewer that single question to remove any further doubts. The Haire story is not likely to ever be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. One reason for this; a photo allegedly shows him out front during Oswald's arrest. This ID however, has been disputed. If the photo does show him, he simply misremembered after 20 years as to where he witnessed the arrest. On the other hand, if he was in fact out back, it could have been George Applin. Applin testified he was taken to DPD by 3 cops. THis was most likely around the same time as Oswald was being taken in, as he further testified they took him back to the TT after taking his statement to catch the rest of the movie, but didn't make it in time to catch all of it. Mr. BALL - Later did you go down to the police station and make a statement? Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir; I did. Mr. BALL - When? Mr. APPLIN - Well, it was after--I guess after they got everybody's name. I rode down with three officers. Mr. BALL - That same day, did you? Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - You didn't go back to the picture show? Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir; I did. There was a patrolman that carried me back out and I was going to see the rest of it, but I never did get back in time to. Mr. BALL - You didn't get to see the show? Mr. APPLIN - Well, I seen part of it, but I didn't get to see all of it. Thanks Lee and Greg. Great pictures of the theatre. Sounds like you have given me my answer Greg. That sounds like the most reasonable thing it could have been. I dont know of anyone else being taken away out front, so it seems reasonable to believe that the police may have very well have taken him out the back, due to all of the confusion going on out front. Do you happen to know if anyone else was taken downtown for questioning? Lee, thanks for the renovation story. It would be great to have the theatre restored. It surely wouldnt hurt the area! thanks--smitty

Very intersting thread. Great points made by all. I was wondering if anybody can eloborate on the story of Bernard Haire, who owned Bernies Hobby House. He stated that he was in the alley behind the theatre, and witnessed the police bringing a "flushed" man out into the alley and put him in the squad car. The police then left with the "suspect". Mr. Haire thought for many years that he witnessed the arrest of Oswald, until he found out years later that Oswald had been brought out on Jefferson Blvd. I understand that the theatre was layed out [sideways] so as the the screen was at the far right of the building looking at it from the front from Jefferson. The back of the theatre would be on the left of the building looking at it, and the "alley" would be directly in the back, not on the side, as normal theatres would be laid out. Anybody have anything on this episode? thanks--Smitty

Il n'y aura aucun nouvel impôt? Yes. There will be no new taxes on lip reading. (For some reason that I simply cannot fathom, Babelfish can't translate that.) Only if I was really pissed off at James Tague. <RIM SHOT, CYMBAL CRASH> Good one, Myra. By the way, I'm quoting liberally (an adverb expressing quantity, not political leanings) and reproducing the images for continuity of discussion about these issues, which I consider to be of some appreciable significance: Uh, the knoll fence? Likely. With a manned watch tower only 250 feet away—at your back, no less—that not only can see you, but has a 360° view of every possible escape route? And with the Sherriff's department (in the County Courts building) only about 350 feet away, directly in front of you, with at least 40 different windows looking down on your position? So if I undertand you correctly, that's a place you'd consider "likely" to be picked by professional snipers to shoot from in order to murder the President of the United States in broad daylight—and be able to stroll away, rifle in hand? Well, Myra, you have an uncanny knack for leaving me almost speechless. (I can only hope other forum members don't start to catch on to how you do it.) But, even if I'm a glutton for punishment, I sure would like to know where this admirably brazen gun-totin' assassin went. Up in a puff of smoke? And while we're on the subject of puffs of smoke, I think I'll light up (yes, and with my hat on, too) and pose this conundrum to you: 1) Given that it has been rather thoroughly established that this event took place well along into the modern era of smokeless gunpowder (there's a whole thread on this subject), and, 2) if—as it seems you contend—the serendipitously timed infamous puff of smoke from the knoll fence area was not a premeditated, carefully timed diversion, and, 3) if the smoke did not come from the firing of a gun there, then: just where did this spontaneous puff of smoke come from—right at that pregnant moment—and how, and why? The question demands an answer from any serious researcher. As I've made clear, and will say again, I believe the only possible answer is that it was, in fact, a premeditated, carefully timed diversion. Was there such an order? Can you please site a source? Yes, ma'am, I can, thanks to the always perspicacious Steve Thomas. Below is what he graciously posted in response to a question I had posed on that count. You can find his original message in context in the thread Order in the Courts! The Riddle of the Court Jesters. Meanwhile, this is what he posted there, and it certainly bears repeating here: It helped me a great deal, and I found it of great interest that the highly compressed incident contains a beautiful overlay of confusion between the Dallas Police Chief, Jesse E. Curry, and the Dallas County Sheriff, Bill Decker: We have Sheriff Decker broadcasting orders from Police Chief Curry's car. Has your head stopped spinning yet? If not, I'm happy to wait. Now, without going off into the relationship of these two men to Dallas Mayor Earl Cabell (elsewhere Earle Cabell—brother of CIA's own Charles Cabell, who had been heavily involved in the Bay of Pigs, and subsequently given the boot by JFK), please note that Decker says "have my office [in the County Courts building] move all available men out of my office." And where does he order them to go? He orders them out of the County Courts building—A in the graphic below—and into the "railroad yard"—B in the graphic below—with instructions (and please read the next phrase carefully, several times) for them "to try to determine what happened in there." Here is the graphic: To "try to determine what happened in there"? At almost the instant of the shooting, who has determined that something "happened in there"? I'll tell you what "happened in there": a lot of smoke, that's what "happened in there." (That repititious clunking sound is just my head on the desk. Almost knocked my hat off, too.) No, Myra. No. No, I'm not remotely suggesting that. I'm sorry that I've been so opaque and impenetrable. It was not my intent. Here's what I'm suggesting, in plain words, as my opinions on all the foregoing: • The County Courts building/complex was the location of a primary shooter, probably who delivered the head shot. • The County Courts building/complex was emptied specifically to provide a perfect cover for the shooter, likely in uniform, to leave the building without arousing the least suspicion—even if carrying a weapon. • Everyone was sent to the "railroad track area just north of Elm" specifically and maliciously because not a damned thing had "happened in there" except a puff of smoke and maybe some loud reports, and because it was away from the escape routes of the shooters. • Decker was in cahoots with Cabell & Cabell (and you can climb that ladder right on up the food chain as high as you care to, or not). And just in case you missed my earlier point (I couldn't tell if you were joking or not), I did not bring up the tower as a shooter's location. I brought it up because the presence of a manned observation tower directly behind the knoll fence area makes the entire idea of a professional sniper back there just fall-down funny to me. (So much for badge men, dog men, invisible men, Indian rope trick men, and little green men extracted from golfball-sized grain in fifth-generation photos.) And not to go all opaque and impenetrable on yer ass again or anything, but I'm going to add here—inscrutably enough and seemingly disconnected enough, perhaps—that I believe that the uniform J.D. Tippit was carrying factors into this exact scenario, as does the uniform worn by the "deputy" seen coming down the stairs in the TSBD by three people as the so-called "first deputy on the scene" was going up those same stairs. And there's still the problem of what the officer burned his hand on when he vaulted over the fence. Ain't we got fun. Ashton This is a great thread! Ashton, thanks for the DP images. They are wonderful! Im sure i can speak for us all on that. I have always felt that there had to be roof shooters involved. A very logical place. Pretty much out of sight, fire escapes [im pretty sure] on all buildings, plus they also must have had access to the roof from inside also. You would have had a perfect sight to all of the motocade as it passed through DP. I posted a thread not long ago about film that was taken by Mr. Ernie Mentesana right after the shooting that showed Dallas police examining a rife that supposedly was removed from the TSBD roof. It surely wasnt a MAN/CAR, as it had no scope, and no sling. I cant remember where i saw pictures from his film. The police were either examining the rifle on the TSBD fire escape, or just when they got on the ground from the fire escape. I wondered in my last post if anybody knew what had happened to Mr. Mentesanas film, and why we didnt hear much about the "roof" gun. I believe there was also a shell casing found on the roof of the Records Building in the 70's on the roof edge under the tarpaper by an air conditioner repairman [ i believe]. Your posting about having the Courts Building emptied, and having a shooter in uniform leaving the building sure would be a good cover for escape after shooting from the roof. What are your thoughts on that? Makes alot of sense to me. By the way, when you are done everybody elses images, you can do the veiws from all the roofs of all the buildings for me! LOL! thanks, Smitty

The radio program Coast to Coast did a fairly extensive show last night. Unfortunately, they spent 2 hours interviewing 90 year old Paul Groody(LHO's mortician). He still claims it wasn't LHO's head that was exhumed. He also contradicted some of the things he said in his TMWKK interview. I saw nothing on the national or local newscasts or their websites. What a freakin shame. RJS Its pathetic. Here in the U.S. [specifically here in Jersey] the only thing that was on TV last night was a 1 hour show on our local PBS channel [12]. It was about all of the media coverage that was shown from the assassination to the funeral. Alot of good clips, some i have never seen before, including most of the live "errors" that were made. [reported deaths of other people, etc...] The only way i found out about it was a mention of it on the local NPR radio station i listen to. Nothing else. You would think one of other major cable channels would have had something on about it. There always has been something on somewhere about the anniversary. I guess the History channel finally gave it up, along with the others. Its a damn shame. There was probably more on about it in other countries, than here in his own country! Pathetic!

Lane's A Citizen's Dissent remains the most comprehensive demolition of the "free" American press I've read. Although it enjoyed a much smaller readership, Accessories After the Fact by Sylvia Meagher was equally devastating to the Commission's findings, in my opinion. Of course, so was Weisberg's Whitewash. The courage and persistence of Lane, Meagher and Weisberg in the face of incredible opposition are to be admired. It's a shame they never got to see justice administered to President Kennedy's murderers. Mike, you've talked me into it. It's top of my list. If A Citizen's Dissent demolishes the notion of a free press, then it's a must read. The 'free press' played a pivotal role in the JFK coverup. It can be argued that had the press really been free and fearless in '63, we wouldn't be here now discussing JFK, MLK, Malcolm X, RFK and all the other controversies. If the truth about JFK's death could be retrieved from the sea of lies, the biggest loser would not be conspirators but the media who would then be morally obliged to investigate a multitude of other official deceptions. Once the media is convinced that the public know they are lying, then they will end the charade, IMO. We're starting to see it now with Iraq. It's not employed journalists who are to blame--they follow orders and are dealt with when they stray, as John Simkin and others have pointed out on other threads--but the amorphous presence lurking behind the press which determines what we shall see, and, of course, what we shall not see. Mark Lane to me anyway, was the ground breaker for everyone to follow. His tireless efforts to get to the bottom of the assasination set the bar. Personally i believe he got alot of peoples interest in this case, and got them interested enough to follow in his steps. It would be great to have him join the forum. The input he could give us, would be irreplaceable. As i told John when i joined the forum, Mr. Lane was, or is still living about 20 mnutes from me in South Jersey. He does, as stated earlier, a weekly radio program on our local radio station covering legal issues i believe. If no one can contact him, let me know, as i can probably contact him. Im not sure if he is still living in the area or not, as the last time i went by his house, it had a "For Sale" sign on it. He has done quite a bit for our community with his radio program and contributions. I went to a local yearlly community get together with silent and live auctions. He had donated two new copies of his out of print books, which were autographed. Needless to say i was out bid! lol! I kick myself for not bidding higher now! lol! --smitty

No pining for the truth here, is there? Understand this, also: The action that brought about the death of President Kennedy is directly related to where we have gone as a nation since then. It is particularly important to what is happening today. That single event prefaced the disintegration of our solid faith in government, fathering the now pervasive and enervating assumption that we no longer have control over our economic or political destiny. Its residue lies in the ashes of the Sixties--in burned out countries and burned out cities and burned out people--and in the debilitating social disparities and continuing civil conflicts of the last thirty years. The assassination and its aftermath bred rampant distrust and disrespect for all established institutions, and that outlook festers yet. And now, we hardly give a damn when our own Government violates or ignores its own laws, as it has done with distressing regularity over the last two decades. An enormous public apathy greeted the Iran/Contra scandals; we were hardly stirred by the fact that hidden layers of government had pursued a secret foreign policy agenda, circumventing the law of the land, the Congress and the Constituion itself. And still, it seems incredible that we're not angry. The fact is, we know an effective democracy demands a populace ready, willing and able to get riled enough to pressure its elected officials into doing their duty in spite of themselves. Where is that anger now? The Government has failed us. It is outrageous that in a democratic society, after two official investigations, our Government still tells us it doesn't know what happened, I hope this book makes you angry about that. Very angry. If it doesn't, we might as well let slip the grip on our individual freedom. It will be gone soon enough. Gaeton Fonzi 1993 The Last Investigation Thanks for starting this Steve. I think we all want to find some truth in this whole assassination, and maybe some closure. Wheather this will happen or not we dont know. We continue because we care. We want the truth. If everyone stopped caring about this, what would become of it? I think that is what the government figured would happen. That everyone would just "forget" about it, and move on. But we havent. This needs to be continued, not just for our satisfaction, but for those to follow us. The generations to come. Thank you Michael for the last quote from Gaeton Fonzi. How true it is. ---smitty

Thanks for your response Jack. That means alot coming from you. I will try and find that film, as it sounds as though it would be very interesting. I would love to see a compilation of all of the films. I assume that "all" of them arent included, but a full length run of each persons film would be great. It would be great to look at what Mr. Mentesana filmed that day, and to find out what has happened to it. Thanks again, Smitty

Hi all, Im a new member, and this is my first post. I hope this is worth discussing. I have always wondered how many guns were "actually" found in the TSBD. I was always drawn to Ernie Mentesana, and what he filmed at the TSBD. I assume he was filming that day, and not taking individual pictures. I remember seeing a "frame", or an individual picture supposedly taken by him showing police officers checking a separate weapon on either the fire escape, or on the ground. The rifle pictured was deffinately not the M/Carcano, as there was no sling or scope, and was supposedly found on the roof of the TSBD. I have read alot of the posts and have found many references to other shooters, and other possible locations of shooters. [west end shooter -GPH German speaking man] [Dal-Tex roof top shooter etc......] From what i understand is that Mr. Mentesana died in 1969 from a heart attack. Can anyone here fill us in on what has happened to that film/pictures of what Mr. Mentesana took that day? I havent heard much on this subject, and it seems like it should have been a major part of the assassination. There has been discussion of a Records Building roof top shooter [Harry Weatherford??] and the Dal-Tex shooter [braden????]. A rooftop shooter would make alot of sense, and explain the pigeons flying off the roof, as supposed seen by many. There have been talk of a rifle shell being found on the Records Building roof years ago under the edge of the roof paper at the roof ledge, but i havent heard much on the TSBD roof/and or shooter. A TSBD roof shooter could explain some of the shots. I have always felt that the supposed "mix up" of the assassation weapon identification, was a total fraud. How could Roger Craig, Seymour Weitzman [supposedly a former gun shop owner] and Eugene Boone all be wrong?? Especially Weitzman! I truly believe there were way more than one rifle found that day. I hope we can get some input on this subject, and maybe get my questions answered. Thanks all! Mike Smith--[smitty]

I have been interested and researching our political assassinations for some time now, and am continually looking for more information. There have been many political moves by our government to alter the course of our future, which have succeeded. Unfortunately, in my opinion, the powers that be have made the mistake of thinking that nothing would ever become of their actions. Well, as we can see, that has not happened. Many great researchers and investigative reporters have continually strived to uncover more than what is on the surface. Thanks to these people, we have found out so much about what has happened in these political conspiracies. Hopefully, with the continued work of all of us, most of the answers will finaly be revealed. Thanks to the Education Forum for this wonderful, worldwide connection for us all to contribute and learn.