Sean Murphy

Very interesting reflections, Larry, thanks. You are of course quite correct to insist on the deep value of first-day evidence.

Apologies Bill (and Tommy), I should have phrased my question a bit more clearly. I was asking how Oswald knew that he himself had been on the first floor at the time of the shooting. But no matter, the text you've highlighted in bold brings us quite nicely to the same question. According to Fritz, Oswald said: a ) that he was having lunch on the first floor about the time the President was shot b ) that he was on the second floor drinking a coca cola when the officer came in. Bill, do you believe Oswald really made both those claims in custody?

It is a shame that WC lawyers, such as Mr. Ball, did not attempt to establish a time frame when questioning witnesses. "Miss HINE. No, sir; after I answered the telephone then there was about four or five people that came in." Was this three minutes after the assassination or thirty minutes? I'm sure Mrs. Reid made her way upstairs eventually that day, but this testimony is no help at all to us, considering the split second timing involved here between the actions of Baker, Truly, Oswald and Mrs. Reid. Hine was desperate to find out what had happened outside. She would surely have noticed the presence of Jeraldean Reid if the latter had come into the office a couple of minutes after the shooting on her own. And Reid would have noticed her.

Bill, I've already made it clear that I do not dismiss out of hand the Groden/Hine scenario: Oswald is getting change for the coke machine, fails to realise the significance of the loud bangs he and Hine hear and goes ahead to buy his coke. Makes sense. Like you, I await the full details in Groden's book. What I do dismiss out of hand is any scenario premised on the idea that Oswald, having either witnessed or become aware of something dramatic that has happened out on the street, would immediately focus on his need to go upstairs for a coke. It's a non-starter IMO. It really boils down to two simple questions: Did Oswald tell Fritz he was on the first floor at the time of the shooting? If so, how did he know? ** You speak of the "suspicious interaction" between Truly and Lumpkin. In what sense do you see it as suspicious?

Sean: RIchard Hocking covered this yesterday What an amazing gathering of sociopathically dissociated people. You should have listened when I cautioned you about this dime-store psychology! Ray, I fear you've missed Richard's point entirely... And no cigar on the gathering of sociopathically dissociated people. None of them hurried upstairs to buy a coke in response to the shooting outside. Yet that's what you would have us believe was the urgent priority of the JFK-admirer Lee Oswald.

Robert, We do have the following statement in Campbell's own words, as given to James Leavelle on 17 Feb '64: This bears out the notion that Campbell, having briefly checked out the scene outside, reentered the building not long after the shots. Obviously he's not about to go repeating here the incendiary detail about Oswald in the small storage room. But note the impression this statement gives--contrary to what Geneva Hine will tell us in her WC testimony--that he stayed on the first floor until Truly had come down again with the officer. ** I imagine Campbell & Reid reentered the building within two or three minutes of the shooting. What might have made Oswald nip into the storage room? It could have been something as simple as needing somewhere to dispose of his empty coke bottle before exiting the building. ** I quite agree with you about the unlikelihood of a trained officer confusing one floor up from the ground floor with several floors up the building. If Baker's affidavit had said "second or third floor" then maybe one might give him a pass. But third or fourth? I'm not buying. Still less as there is nothing else in his affidavit description to make this sound at all like the location of the alleged second-floor incident.

Hi Ray. If Oswald is Prayer Man, then he will certainly have heard at least part of the shooting. He will certainly have heard the screaming and panic out on the street. And he will certainly have seen a uniformed officer racing into the building. He would need to have been off-the-scale obtuse not to put two and two together. I mean, it's not as if he can have thought the officer was bursting to go to the toilet. What I find really striking is precisely the fact that Prayer Man appears to be making absolutely no attempt to check out what's happening down the street. He's either frozen in shock (for reasons that are not hard to surmise for a patsified Oswald suddenly realising what the score is) or he's (and how do I put this delicately?) not remotely surprised by or curious about the horror that's unfolding out on the street (again, for reasons that--however different--are no less easy to surmise).

That's fascinating about Jack Dougherty, Ray. I know Duke Lane was pretty interested in this issue a while back. Why oh why has no one asked Buell Wesley Frazier for a physical description of Dougherty?

Sorry, Ray, no matter how many times you tell us what Oswald told Fritz in custody, the stark fact remains: we don't know because we weren't there and the interrogations weren't recorded. We have to put the pieces of the puzzle together with great care.

It may easily be both, Robert. The key word in Biffle's DMN report is "toward": Campbell is said to have run toward the grassy knoll but not necessarily very far in that direction. We see lots of people do exactly that in the Couch film. He may then have returned to where Jeraldean Reid was standing and together they may have hurried back into the building, spotting Oswald in the small storage room just off the first-floor front lobby. From Campbell's 11/24 FBI interview: He then observed the car bearing President KENNEDY to slow down, a near stop, and a motorcycle policeman rushed up. Immediately following this, he observed the car rush away from the scene. He then immediately rushed into his building without having seen anything unusual from any window of this building. If I'm right about his and Jeraldean Reid's having spotted Oswald in the storage room, then Biffle's DMN report can be explained as a simple case of crossed wires. He picked up two reports--Oswald's having been spoken to by a revolver-toting police officer immediately after the assassination and Oswald's having been seen in a small storage room immediately after the assassination--and conflated them. The direct quote from Campbell in the NY Herald Tribune report allows us to separate out the two reports.

Now Geneva Hine, for those uninitiated in the TSBD employee picnic, was a secretary who, because she had seen JFK before, volunteered to stay behind and man the telephones while all the other secretaries and employees went out front to the street or to the upper floor windows to view the motorcade. She knew Oswald from having given him change for sodas and telephone calls, and may have done so on the day of the assassination, and according to one Dallas researcher who talked with her, was exchanging change with Oswald when the shots were fired, although she didn't testify to that. One can only await the details of Robert Groden's interview with the late Geneva Hine with keen impatience. She died (IIRC) a decade ago at the fine age of 100. It's deeply regrettable that Groden has held back the full story until the 50th anniversary. CT efforts to exonerate Oswald via the second-floor lunchroom story have had a fatal flaw at their heart: they have Oswald, on the first floor at the time of the shooting, responding to the shots and/or ensuing mayhem by going upstairs to buy a coke. This may account for Baker's first glimpse of Oswald off the second-floor landing, but only at the cost of casting Oswald as a sociopathically dissociated man. We see this problem with extra bells on in the current thread, where it is being seriously proposed that Oswald/Prayer Man's reaction to the firing of shots while JFK, the man he so deeply admires, is passing the building is: 'Well, ain't that a thing. Time for that coke I promised to treat myself to.' Quite preposterous. ** In my opinion there are only five scenarios in any sort of serious contention at this point: 1. The Geneva Hine/Groden Scenario: Oswald was on the second floor getting change for the coke machine when he and Hine heard loud bangs; not realising what they were, Oswald went ahead and bought the coke. Second-floor lunchroom story true? Yes. 2. The Prayer-Man-to-Second-Floor Scenario: Oswald is Prayer Man; after Baker and Truly rush off across the shipping floor for the rear stairs, Oswald for some reason decides to follow them by ascending the front stairs and making his way at speed to the northwest corner of the second floor; the purchase of a coke is the very furthest thing from his mind. Second-floor lunchroom story true? Yes. 3. David Lifton's Baker-Taking-Out-Oswald Scenario: Oswald is instructed by his handler(s) to wait in the second-floor lunchroom during the motorcade; Baker is tasked with running into the building and taking Oswald out there; only the unanticipated presence of Roy Truly stays Baker's hand. Second-floor lunchroom incident true? Yes. 4. The Prayer-Man Scenario, as proposed in the current thread: Oswald is Prayer Man; after Baker and Truly rush off across the shipping floor for the rear stairs, he sticks around in the first-floor front lobby area. Second-floor lunchroom story true? No. 5. The Non-Prayer-Man Scenario: Oswald is not Prayer Man; he is however near the front entrance of the building at the time of the shooting. Second-floor lunchroom story true? No. My money is on #4, with #5 and #1 a not too distant second place.

We appear to have the following state of play as of the late afternoon/early evening of the assassination: -Lee Oswald in custody claiming to have been at the front entrance on the first floor during the assassination and to have had a fleeting encounter with a police officer and Mr. Truly as they rushed into the building -Detective Ed Hicks telling the press about an incident involving Oswald and a cop at the front entrance of the building shortly after the shooting -Marrion L. Baker on the record as having encountered a man walking away from the rear stairway several floors up the building. So far, not a single reference anywhere--in a single news media report--to a second-floor lunchroom incident. ** But it gets even worse for the second-floor lunchroom story. For we now need to add into the mix two startling newspaper reports written on the evening of the assassination. Both refer to an Oswald sighting on--you've guessed it--the first floor. ** #1: From the Dallas Morning News, written by Kent Biffle 11/22, published 11/23: The dissonant element here (dissonant, that is, to my theory) is not "first floor", not "the officer, gun drawn", not the question as to Oswald's being an employee. No, the dissonant element is "storage room". How--on my theory--would the Baker-Oswald encounter have happened in a first-floor storage room? Isn't it supposed to have taken place in the front lobby? There were in fact two designated "storage rooms" on the TSBD first floor--one beside the domino room near the rear of the building and one just off the front lobby. Obviously the latter is going to arouse our interest in the current context. But the close proximity of the "storage room" to the lobby area doesn't quite explain how it could have become confused in the reporter's mind with "front lobby/vestibule". In order to grapple with this conundrum, we must move on to the other newspaper report. ** #2: From the New York Herald Tribune, written 11/22, published 11/23: Mr. [Ochus V.] Campbell [vice-president of the TSBD] said, "Shortly after the shooting we raced back into the building. We had been outside watching the parade. We saw him (Oswald) in a small storage room on the ground floor. Then we noticed he was gone.” Mr Campbell added: "Of course he and the others were on their lunch hour but he did not have permission to leave the building and we haven't seen him since." There it is again: storage room. Only this time with three differences: a ) This is a "small storage room" b ) We are being given a direct quote from Ochus Campbell, the man we've just seen feature so prominently in the Biffle report c ) The talk is of "we" having simply seen Oswald--no mention of an officer being involved. What in the Sam Hill is going on here? ** How about we do the unthinkable and take at face value what the NY Herald Tribune is telling us, i.e. that Ochus Campbell recalled his and at least one other person's having seen Oswald in a small storage room on the first floor? Campbell had been outside watching the motorcade with two other people: Roy Truly and Jeraldean Reid. We know that Truly separated from them immediately after the shots and ran into the building after Marrion Baker. So that leaves Campbell + Jeraldean Reid. Put the case: Oswald/Prayer Man, at some point after the shooting, nipped in to the small storage room just off the front lobby. Ochus Campbell reentered the building around this time accompanied by at least one other person--Jeraldean Reid. They made their way to the front-of-house stairs in order to go up to the second floor office area. In order to do so they had to pass the small storage room beside the stairway. The door was open and they--or one of them--noticed and recognised Lee Oswald in there. Thinking nothing of it, they proceeded on up to the second floor office area. ** I'll let Geneva Hine tell us what happened next: Mr. BALL. When you came back in did you see Mrs. Reid? Miss HINE. No, sir; I don't believe there was a soul in the office when I came back in right then. Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody else go in through there? Miss HINE. No, sir; after I answered the telephone then there was about four or five people that came in. ... Mr. BALL. Do you have any definite recollection of Mrs. Reid coming in? Miss HINE. No, sir; I only saw four or five people that came by and they all came and were all talking about how terrible it was. Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names? Miss HINE. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. Who were they? Miss HINE. Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina (spelling), Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell; that's all I recall, sir. Mrs. Reid... and Mr. Campbell. Now let's re-read that direct quote from Ochus Campbell in the NY Herald Tribune: Shortly after the shooting we [= I and the person with me] raced back into the building. We [=I and the person with me] had been outside watching the parade. We [i and the person with me] saw him (Oswald) in a small storage room on the ground floor. ** Mrs. Reid would accompany Roy Truly to DPD HQ the following day and give a statement to the effect that she had seen Oswald--not loitering in a first-floor storage room--but entering the second-floor office area. Was she pressurised by her two bosses--Ochus and Roy--to do so? I believe we have serious grounds for believing that the poor lady was. Now if only that pesky Geneva Hine hadn't been upstairs the whole time to ruin the marvelously efficient box-ticking story foisted upon her colleague.

What is really "ludicrously implausible," Sean is the idea that he shot JFK, a man he admired, according to his wife and everyone who knew him well. P.S. If you can show me evidence that he was a fan of Lyndon Johnson then I might believe you. Ray, if you think my argument is that Lee Oswald shot JFK then I'm not the one who needs sleep! Best to you (and Bill) from a wretchedly wet Dublin.... (Bill--no, I've never had a pint with JG. Then again, I'm not much of a pint man--Double Jemmy is more my poison;)

Right you are, Robert. I can think of only one halfway plausible scenario whereby Oswald/Prayer Man would want to hurry up the front stairs and make his way towards the northwest corner of the second floor in such a fashion: he's following Baker and Truly. Thanks for the awfully kind words in your earlier post by the way.

So, Ray, Oswald's reaction to the shot(s), the pandemonium in the street and the sight of his boss and a police officer rushing past him is to make his way--at speed!--up to the second-floor lunchroom for the "coke that he had been looking forward to" after a hard morning's work? Have you any idea how ludicrously implausible that sounds?

The two Bookhout-authored 11/22 interrogation reports make for interesting comparative reading. From Interrogation Report #1 (jointly written by Bookhout and Hosty, typed 11/23/63--dated 11/22/63--"dictated" 11/23/63): Oswald stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola for his lunch. Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed this building. This account contains two rather bizarre omissions: the precise location on the first floor of Oswald's claimed whereabouts at the time JFK passed the building any mention of an incident involving himself, a police officer and Mr. Truly Now put the case that the Prayer Man theory I have been outlining is correct. The reason for the two omissions in Bookhout-Hosty's report becomes instantly intelligible: there is no way on earth that such a potentially explosive double claim by the suspect in custody (I was at the front entrance during the shooting and interacted with my boss and [horror!] a police officer just seconds later) is going to make it into the official record. ** What happens next is key. You might even say it's the giveaway. Bookhout goes solo. He takes the curious step of putting together a second, 'improved' report on the very same interrogation. From Interrogation Report #2 (written solo by Bookhout, typed 11/25/63--dated 11/22/63--"dictated" 11/24/63): Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola form the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. See what's happened? The key elements of what Oswald had really claimed (re. coke, standing outside, officer, Truly) have been transposed into a different timeframe. Why? In order to deprive the now dead Oswald of his absolutely watertight alibi by having him 'confirm' the bogus second-floor lunchroom story. ** I invite for serious consideration the hypothesis that Bookhout's solo report needs just a small tweak to give us, for the first time, a credible guide as to what Oswald really said to Fritz in that first interrogation session (note: black = original Bookhout text; red = my changes; blue = repositioned Bookhout text): Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the shooting, he was on the first floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola form the soft-drink machine on the second floor. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around at the front door, at which time a police officer came into the vestibule with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the vestibule [with Mr. Truly] and continued through the building. The most valuable piece of text in Bookhout's entire solo report? Surely it's the phrase in bold below: at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there.

Fritz's notes -- on top of the coke room story -- put the matter beyond much doubt in my mind, and this thread has, for my money (to quote Fritz) "cinched" it. He was "Out with BIll Shelley in front." And I have no doubt he would have so testified at his trial. And if Sean Murphy, Duncan MacRae, Richard Hocking, Robin Unger, Gerda, and those involved in the Prayer Man inquiry were there to help, he would have proved it. Ray, we don't know that Oswald "said he was in the 2nd floor lunchroom when the policeman came in" because we weren't there and the interrogations were not recorded. We do however know what the same-day evidence has to say on that score: Oswald stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola for his lunch. Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed this building. (Bookhout-Hosty joint interrogation report 11/22/63) No mention whatsoever of an incident involving an officer & Mr. Truly. ** But on to the substantive point. You evidently believe 1) Oswald was indeed Prayer Man and was at the front entrance at the time of the actual shooting 2) the second-floor lunchroom incident really did happen. Okay, let's run with that combination. Here's what I'm interested in: what do you believe happened between our last glimpse of Prayer Man in the Darnell film and Marrion Baker's first glimpse of Oswald through the door window on the second floor?

Ray, the intense emotional and cognitive investment of generations of conspiracy-oriented researchers in the second-floor lunchroom story is understandable but unfortunate. Regarding Marrion Baker's same-day affidavit: It gives report of an encounter several floors up the building with a light-brown-jacket-wearing man seen walking away from the stairway. Baker's affidavit makes no connection between this man and the suspect currently in custody--this despite the fact that said suspect, Lee Harvey Oswald, has been brought into the Homicide Office in front of Baker's own eyes just as he is giving that same affidavit. Not alone does Baker's affidavit fail to corroborate the lunchroom story told to the WC, it is glaringly at odds with it. It may even be telling us that Baker apprehended--only to let loose--a man other than Oswald several floors up the building. Where do you believe Lee Oswald was at the time of the shooting?

Marrion Baker approaching the TSBD front entrance with revolver in hand. On the theory I am advancing, Lee Oswald is indeed about to have an encounter with a revolver-toting police officer, but the location, timing and meaningof that encounter will be very different to the location, timing and meaning of the encounter that will be fed to the public in the Warren Report. It will take place not in the second-floor lunchroom but just inside the front door in the first-floor lobby not within the next minute but within the next ten seconds and Baker will not challenge Oswald only for Truly to vouch for Oswald, he will ask Oswald for help only to have Truly helpfully cut in and introduce himself as building manager.

YES! Thank you Patrick, that is Mrs. Reid's original affidavit. I had it in my head that this affidavit was given on the 22nd, but it was in fact the day after. Thanks, Ray--and thanks, Pat. So no same-day corroboration from Mrs. Reid then. Shall we take a look at Marrion Baker's same-day corroboration?

I would like to offer a simple scenario that I believe may tell the story of what really happened between Lee Oswald, Marrion Baker and Roy Truly. ONE: Oswald comes downstairs to lunch in the first-floor domino room at some point after noon TWO: Several minutes before the assassination he visits the second-floor lunchroom where he buys a coke for his lunch THREE: He brings the coke downstairs and, just as JFK is passing the building, steps out the glass door at the front entrance and takes up the Prayer Man position FOUR: Within seconds of the last shot, Marrion Baker rushes up the front steps, revolver drawn FIVE: He notices Oswald, who has perhaps stepped inside the door into the lobby area, and asks him 'Do you work here?'. The reason for Baker's question is not that he suspects Oswald in any way but that he is looking for someone who can point him the way to the stairs (rather as a credentials-waving man will a short time after this ask Oswald where he can find a phone) SIX: Just as Baker is beginning to engage Oswald in this way, Roy Truly arrives and tells him, 'Yes, Officer, he works here but I am the building manager. I will show you the way upstairs' SEVEN: Baker and Truly run off to cross the shipping floor for the rear elevators EIGHT: This innocent incident--with its basic elements still intact (Oswald... coke... asking whether Oswald is an employee...Truly confirming)--will later that evening be transplanted up to the second floor lunchroom in a hastily contrived attempt to deprive Oswald of his clear alibi. ** Far-fetched? I can only invite you to consider the following detail: Marrion Baker testified before the WC that he didn't take his revolver out until he was going up the rear stairway from first to second floor. His claim is exposed as a downright lie by the Darnell film, which shows him reaching with his right arm for his holster, taking out his revolver and pointing it straight ahead:

Thanks, Ray.

Further to the question as to why Jeraldean Reid would testify that Oswald was wearing a white tshirt when she saw him: It's perhaps worth noting that her boss Roy Truly told the authorities that to the best of his recollection Oswald had worn "either a white tshirt or a light colored shirt" that day.

Robert, it can be found archived on Greg Parker's Reopen Kennedy Case website: http://www.reopenkennedycase.net/richard-gilbride-hsca-collection.html The relevant section is on pages 2-3 of the Jarman transcript.