Dean Hagerman

I wont use the quote option so we dont have to scroll down for 10 miles just to read a reply, so I will keep your posts in bold

They all do. Wimp prepared quite wonderful GIFs showing this. Until someone comes up with his work for all to see, it is extremely difficult to make clear his points

I would love to see this Gif, I can make one with those frames you mention, but I would like to see his Gifs and his work on this

You are confused here. All occupants of the limousine slide forward starting about Z frame 308. All continue sliding forward but JFK is whacked backward and to the left at Z 314

No I am not confused, I do not see JFK ever start to slide forward, have you ever thought that all the people in the limo were all ducking out of the way right after JFK was hit instead of the limo just slowing down? Kellerman thought that bullets were coming in from all over the place, Nellie thought that spent buckshot was raining down all over them in the car.

I will look into frame 308 to 313 (or even up to 320) and make a Gif if only for myself to watch because I dont recall anyone moving forward until AFTER the head shot

Im not saying your wrong about them starting to move forward at 308, I have just never seen that nor studied any one in the limo moving forward before the head shot

As far as I know, Rich Dellarosa's story about seeing the "other film" has been around for a decade or so and no one has made any progress in confirming it. Were there others in the audience with Dellarosa who could confirm what he says he saw? Exactly where and when did he see it? Etc. My own bet is that he may have seen one of the many Zapruder film look-alikes that have been floating around... you know, the sort of thing done for the film Executive Action, etc.

Rich has done that Tink, go to JFKresearch.com, Rich made a thread telling where he saw the film, under what conditions, what he saw etc.

Well, as long as you're happy with your fellow tribe members, that's nice,

Very much so, im proud to be a part of the tribe as you say, its nice to have people who belive strongly in the same things that you do, I do disagree with some things but for the most part my thoughts fit in well with Fetzer and crew

No, I wasn't "backing out" of anything.

That good to hear

So you still back your shot scenario in SSID but whithout the first hit in the double head shot?

Thanks Tink

Dean

Put that champagne back on ice Dean

You're getting the motorcycle cops mixed up. It's the panning action of Dorman's camera that moves, not the motorcyclists.

The motorcycle cops you see on the right side of the screen are the same motorcycle cops who were always at the right of the screen.

What are you talking about Duncan?

Did you read my post or watch the Dorman film?

I never said the motercyclists move

I know that they are the same cops that we see on the left side of the screen that in less then the blink of an eye are back at the right side of the screen

Where in my post did you see me say that they are two different cops?

Read slowly, watch the film again and then report back to me when you can tell me im right

The film has missing frames, thus the film has been altered

Fair enough Dean, you're allowed to change your mind.

You posted this on the other forum.

Quote from: Dean Hagerman on Today at 06:06:40 PM

Watch real close and you will see the jump (what to watch for is how the motercycle officers go from the left hand side of the film to the righthand side when the film jumps, so frames were removed) End of qoute

The Dorman film isn't altered Dean. The missing frames were never there in the first place. Gary Mack is spot on. It stops and starts all over the place. Why?..because she was an amateur, just like all of the other assassination sequence film takers on that day.

Duncan why would you post that im changing my mind? The post you quoted never says two different sets of cops, it says just what I have said in this thread

Please dont imply that I am not being honest, you can read what I posted on both forums and you know I posted the same thing

So why would you say that? Are you trying to make me look stupid? Are you trying to make me mad? I had a great deal of respect for you at first, but it seems just because we dont agree you post BS about me "changing my mind" I dont know why you would do that

Back to the point of the thread

While I look to Gary for help on some things I have to disagree with him on this

Good job Bill, while I have already read/am reading vol 4 it is very nice of you to post parts of it for those who dont have the book yet or wont buy it for reasons unknown

Not nice, Dr. Fetzer.

he is still light years ahead of Dr. Fetzer

Not Nice, Ray

Put that champagne back on ice Dean

You're getting the motorcycle cops mixed up. It's the panning action of Dorman's camera that moves, not the motorcyclists.

The motorcycle cops you see on the right side of the screen are the same motorcycle cops who were always at the right of the screen.

What are you talking about Duncan?

Did you read my post or watch the Dorman film?

I never said the motercyclists move

I know that they are the same cops that we see on the left side of the screen that in less then the blink of an eye are back at the right side of the screen

Where in my post did you see me say that they are two different cops?

Read slowly, watch the film again and then report back to me when you can tell me im right

The film has missing frames, thus the film has been altered

In case the link does not work just copy and paste to get to the Youtube video

For the last year or so I have been researching Hugh Betzners pictures and more importantly his movements in the Z-film and the Dorman film

While watching the Dorman film over and over 100s of times I began to notice some jumps in the film that looked like missing frames

That alone is a big deal, but where the missing frames are on the film is a HUGE deal, right when the limo is about to make the turn onto Elm the frames are missing and the film jumps

Just watch the film in the link from youtube (taken from Grodens Assassination Films) between the 11 and 12 second mark the film jumps right when the limo is starting the turn from Houston to Elm

Watch the two motercycle officers, right before the jump they are on the left hand side of the film, then the film jumps to the motercycle officers to the right hand side of the film right when the limo is starting its turn

Gary Mack has told me that Dorman kept turning her camera on and off while filming

Well I dont believe that Zappy turned his camera off, and I also dont think Dorman did either, both of these films have the limo turn onto Elm taken out

Along with the damage to the Towner film and the Hughes film whwne the limo turn was happening

I agree with Fetzer, White and others that the Limo turn was taken out because Greer swung wide and had to pretty much stop the limo to correct his mistake and get back into the middle lane, those who altered the film had to take away any SS mistakes or that would show that the SS was involved in any way

I would like some feedback on this discovery I have made through my research

I know that Z-film is altered thanks to Fetzer, White and the rest of TGZFH guys along with Noel Twyman, I am looking at the other films very closly and have concluded that the Dorman film is altered and frames were taken away from the film

Nix said when he got his film back from the government it had frames missing

Muchmore said that she does not remember filming the Elm St assassination part that shows up on her film

Altgens can not remember taking two of his pictures

This is a very exciting time for me as an alterationist, with Doug Hornes book validating Fetzer and TGZFH gang along with Liftons body alteration theory

Dean

So Ms. Beckett is offended by BALLS? I watched footBALLS all day yesterday in bowl games.

Tomorrow I will be going to a game where the players will be shooting basketBALLS into

hoops. I guess the word BALLS is now off limits, huh?

I better self-edit:

So Ms. Beckett is offended by XXXXX? I watched footXXXXX all day yesterday in bowl games.

Tomorrow I will be going to a game where the players will be shooting basketXXXXX into

hoops. I guess the word XXXXX is now off limits, huh?

Former Marines like Fetzer take notice!

Jack

Hey Jack how many balls were on the sidelines yesterday to replace the game balls that got to worn out?

I just want to know how much money is being wasted, you know with the players now keeping all the balls that they score touchdowns with

I think we need to look into this more deeply

Dean,

You are doing a great job here and elsewhere! These issues are so important, let's hope that he stops ducking them!

Best for the New Year!

Jim

Tink I dont see any of the others in the limo being thrown forward at the time of JFKs forward head snap

And why is JFKs head the only part of his body to be thrown forward when the others in the limo have their bodies thrown forward? (Again after JFKs forward head snap)

Tink you were right the first time

The other film as viewed by Rich Dellarosa shows a more pronounced double hit to JFKs head after the limo came to a complete stop

Im sure you dont believe Rich, however I do believe Rich and I think those who altered the Z-film could not take away enough frames to make the double hit disappear completly, that and they paid to much attention to creating the blob and blood spray to notice the small forward head snap that you caught

I already know that you are going to say im crazy for backing up alteration, but I stand behind Fetzer and TGZFH gang (White, Mantik, Healy, Lifton, DellaRosa) as well as Noel Twyman whom back in 1997 proved alteration of the Z-film to me

I think you having caught the double head hit is a huge deal, and while you may think of it in terms of the Z-film being authentic, I think of it as a missed item by the alterationists

Again thanks for you reply

And one more question, it seems like you were kind of backing out on a shot coming from the front in your reply to me

Was I just looking into what you were saying the wrong way, or do you no longer believe in a shot from the front?

Thanks again Tink

Dean

Edit: I created the Gif from Costella combined edit

Thank you very much Jim

Tink I dont see any of the others in the limo being thrown forward at the time of JFKs forward head snap

And why is JFKs head the only part of his body to be thrown forward when the others in the limo have their bodies thrown forward? (Again after JFKs forward head snap)

Tink you were right the first time

The other film as viewed by Rich Dellarosa shows a more pronounced double hit to JFKs head after the limo came to a complete stop

Im sure you dont believe Rich, however I do believe Rich and I think those who altered the Z-film could not take away enough frames to make the double hit disappear completly, that and they paid to much attention to creating the blob and blood spray to notice the small forward head snap that you caught

I already know that you are going to say im crazy for backing up alteration, but I stand behind Fetzer and TGZFH gang (White, Mantik, Healy, Lifton, DellaRosa) as well as Noel Twyman whom back in 1997 proved alteration of the Z-film to me

I think you having caught the double head hit is a huge deal, and while you may think of it in terms of the Z-film being authentic, I think of it as a missed item by the alterationists

Again thanks for you reply

And one more question, it seems like you were kind of backing out on a shot coming from the front in your reply to me

Was I just looking into what you were saying the wrong way, or do you no longer believe in a shot from the front?

Thanks again Tink

Dean

Edit: I created the Gif from Costella combined edit

"Was JFK Trying to Cough Up a Bullet?" is crucial to connecting the dots, as I will argue

vigorously going forward..

Im sorry Cliff but I cant understand why anybody would back Gils theory

More contentless dismissal.

The first time I watched his JFK Cough video I thought that Gil was going to pop up and the end of the video and say "Ha ha just kidding guys I got you!"

Are there any actual facts you wish to discuss?

Or is ridicule the only note you hit?

Im still trying to decide what part is more insane, JFK trying to catch the coughed up bullet

in his right hand, or JFK trying to loosin his tie with his left hand

And yet there JFK is, clear as day, holding his right hand in front of his face

while his left hand "clutches" or "grabs" at his throat as per the witness

testimony.

Are you denying that JFK was struck in the throat from the front by a projectile

that didn't exit?

How many researchers/students do you think back Gils theory up? (besides you and him)

Perhaps you need the reassurance of other people agreeing with you.

This is not a particular need I've ever had.

Happy New Year...

Cliff you know as well as I do that I would never be able to change your mind, and I know for sure you would not be able to change mine

So here it is

You belive in Gils theory

I think its the most insane theory I have ever heard

No need to get into a heated debate over it

I do have one question though, why do you back this theory with such vigor as you say?

How does it fit in with your assassination scenario?

"Was JFK Trying to Cough Up a Bullet?" is crucial to connecting the dots, as I will argue

vigorously going forward..

Im sorry Cliff but I cant understand why anybody would back Gils theory

The first time I watched his JFK Cough video I thought that Gil was going to pop up and the end of the video and say "Ha ha just kidding guys I got you!"

Im still trying to decide what part is more insane, JFK trying to catch the coughed up bullet in his right hand, or JFK trying to loosin his tie with his left hand

How many researchers/students do you think back Gils theory up? (besides you and him)

Thank you very much for your reply Tink

I will work on my response tonight

While we may disagree with some of Tink's conclusions, and wish he'd pursued different aspects of the evidence, it is an historical fact that his book really shook things up. In the aftermath of the CBS four-part special, and the AP's widely circulated series supporting the Warren Commission, the feeling among the media was almost certainly that Mark Lane, Epstein, and Weisberg, etc, had been countered. And then came Thompson...his book not only received mountains of publicity, and was deservedly taken seriously, it scared the government's hired experts into re-interpreting Kennedy's wounds, and moving the entrance on the back of JFK's head to a location more in line with what they claimed was an exit wound on the top of his head. (The Clark Panel's leader, Russell Fisher, said the Clark Panel was convened in part to refute the junk in Thompson's book.)

So...if anything, Tink's book forced the government's hand, and revealed it would willingly embrace any line of nonsense as long as they could claim there was but one shooter firing from behind named Oswald.

Pat I agree with that 100%

I still love SSID

I still read it

I still belive in some of Tinks very important theories

That is one of the reasons I am very dumbfounded as to why Tink changed his mind about the double head hit

Actually, the shot to the back (about 5 1/2 inches below the collar and to the right of the spinal column) appears to have been fired from the top of the County Records Building by Harry Weatherford, a Dallas County Deputy Sheriff, who was using a sabot to fire a Mannlicher-Carcano bullet from a higher caliber weapon. You might like to listen to the discussion about this between me and Jim Marrs on "The Real Deal", whose programs are archived at http://radiofetzer.blogspot.com.

JFK was not try to cough up a bullet, he was struck in the back from a shot from the Dal Tex building, thats why he moves forward

I agree that JFK was shot in the back from the Dal Tex Building.

What, pray tell, does that have to do with him being shot in the throat from the front

circa Z190?

Good call Jim

I just remembered reading in Crossfire (years ago was the last time I read it) about an Air Conditining man who found a shell with a sabot around it on the roof of the Records Building

I will listen to you and Marrs on The Real Deal tonight and report back with my thoughts

Dean

JFK was not try to cough up a bullet, he was struck in the back from a shot from the Dal Tex building, thats why he moves forward

I agree that JFK was shot in the back from the Dal Tex Building.

What, pray tell, does that have to do with him being shot in the throat from the front

circa Z190?

It has nothing to do with JFK being shot in the throat from the front (I agree with that as well)

Gil trys to pawn off JFKs forward movement from a hit in the back as JFK trying to cough up a bullet

I do not believe in Gils theory at all, and im sure most of the members of this forum do not agree either

Arguably the two most important research works of the Internet Age are

Zapruder film analyses:

Gil Jesus' analysis: "Was JFK Trying to Cough Up a Bullet?"

You have got to be kidding me

I have no idea who you are.

Have you done any original research in the case, Dean?

I almost fell out of my chair laughing when watching "Was JFK Trying to Cough Up a Bullet?"

JFK getting shot in the throat and frantically trying to clear his airway amuses you?

Okay.

I guess you'll find this Nellie Connally WC testimony hilarious...(emphasis added)

The first sound, the first shot, I heard, and turned and looked right into the President's

face. He was clutching his throat, and just slumped down. He Just had a - a look

of nothingness on his face. He-he didn't say anything. But that was the first shot.

How about this bit from Clint Hill, also before the WC:

Well, as we came out of the curve [intersection of Houston and Elm Streets], and began

to straighten up, I was viewing an area which looked to be a park...And I heard a noise

from my right rear, which to me seemed to be a firecracker. I immediately looked to my

right, and, in so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential limousine and I saw

President Kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward and to the left.

Or how about this one from Linda K. Willis, Rosemary Willis' older sister, who told

the Warren Commission:

"Yes. I heard one [shot]. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two

real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, well the President turned from waving

to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward..."

That's 3 witnesses with a clear view of Kennedy corroborating Gil Jesus' analysis.

What, exactly, do you find funny about this, Dean?

I find most of Gils work funny

And I dont know who you are either

JFK was not try to cough up a bullet, he was struck in the back from a shot from the Dal Tex building, thats why he moves forward

Tink

Please explain why you changed your mind on this most important theory

Dr. Thompson explained this a number of years ago and it has been posted several times on the forum, starting with this thread:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...=5018&st=30

Fetzer claims I want to return things to their 1967 basis. This, of course, is nonsense. Let me rebut it by pointing out a major mistake I made in "Six Seconds."

I measured there that JFK's head moved forward about two inches between Z312 and Z313. This forward movement followed by the obvious left, backward snap suggested to me that he had been hit in the head from the rear and then, almost instantaneously, from the right front. Within the last few years, Art Snyder of the Stanford Linear Accelerator Laboratory, was able to show me how this involved a serious mistake in measurement.

As you all know, Z312 is quite clear while Z313 is smeared from movement of the camera. Using fairly complicated math, Snyder was able to demonstrate to me that I was measuring the smear on frame Z313 and not the movement of Kennedy's head. That socalled "two-inch movement" was an illusion; it came from the smear.

David Wimp and Joe Durnavich came to much the same conclusion. Wimp, however, has gone futher. He has shown that JFK's head begins moving forward about Z308 and that everyone else in the limousine... Kellerman, Greer, Jackie, Mrs. Connally, John Connally... also begin a moderate movement forward at that time. After Z314, JFK flips backward and to the left while all the rest continue moving forward. The explanation: When Greer turned to look in the back seat at circa Z302 his foot tapped the brake, decelerating the limousine and throwing forward all the limousine's occupants. There is no longer any clear evidence in the Zapruder film of Kennedy being hit in the back of the head. (I say "clear" because there may be some evidence of a hit from the rear at Z327/328) The Z312-Z317 sequence... the bowling over of JFK to the left rear.... is the unambiguous result of a shot from the right front.

This is wonderful progress by careful research. Because of it, I am delighted to admit... even proclaim... that I made a mistake in 1967. This kind of research requires more than the National Enquirer method of research espoused by Professor Fetzer. In fact, such research would never have have been undertaken had anyone paid any attention to Fetzer's now bankrupt obsession with proving the Zapruder film a hoax.

Well Ray you must have missed the post I made were I said I had already read his reason for changing his mind (in fact it was the post made by Tink in the same thread you posted a link to that I read)

That was not the point of my making this thread, I want talk to Tink in depth about this theory and his reasons for backing out on it

Arguably the two most important research works of the Internet Age are

Zapruder film analyses:

Gil Jesus' analysis: "Was JFK Trying to Cough Up a Bullet?"

You have got to be kidding me

I almost fell out of my chair laughing when watching "Was JFK Trying to Cough Up a Bullet?"

Dean,

Did you hear about the hippy who was drowning at sea. His friend on the beach asked the rescue service why they could not rescue him, and the reply was.

" He's too far out man"

The same applies to your line....It's too far out man.

Tink

Please explain why you changed your mind on this most important theory

And again I believe you were correct back in 1967

Thank you Tink

Dean

If you want to start a separate thread on the "double head shot" and others choose to contribute, I will be happy to give you chapter and verse on why I was wrong in 1967. I would like to keep this thead focused on what it is supposed to be about. I didn't change my mind, obviously, because of what one researcher told me or didn't tell me.

Josiah Thompson

The "double hit" analysis on pages 86 to 95--which was the most scientific and impressive aspect of your book--along with your account of three gunmen murdering the president with four shots--all of which hit--on pages 115 to 140, which is summarized on pages 178 to 195, clearly implies the existence of a

Tink

This is very important, maybe not to you but it is to me

I have asked you in this thread about it and I understand that you are busy dealing with Full Flush Left but at the same time the double hit theory that YOU came up with has something to do with Z-film alteration

Again I have believed in your theory since I read it, it made perfect sense and the way you presented it in your book was outstanding

I have read the story about why you no longer support your double hit theory, but I cant see how you were so sure in SSID but then go back on it from one researcher telling you it was the from the limo slowing down and the passangers being thrown forward

Why didnt the rest of JFKs body get thrown forward with the rest of the limo? Just his head moved forward

I dont want to go into my thoughts on Z-film alteration right now because I dont want you to dismiss me as this is important to ME!

Rich Dellarosa has seen the double hit unlike myself and you have Tink

This fits in perfectly with the Z-film being altered, I hope that you taking back your double hit theory didnt have anything to do with you not wanting to be involved or labeled as an alterationist

Tink I believe that you were correct back in 1967 and you are still correct today

Can you at least give me some more info on why you dont believe in your theory anymore?

Again I would love to discuss this with you, if you want i can start a new thread

Thanks Tink

Dean

Duncan you used the top frame to prove your point that Lifton was wrong (in my opinion you did not prove Lifton wrong)

Now im going to use the bottom frame to prove that Lifton was right

Ok Dean, so that there is no room for error, I have made a new gif where the line is thicker and placed inside of the sprocket holes extended to reach the edges, which is what I should have did with my earlier examples. As you can see, the results are the same, with the black area still showing. All you need to do to check the accuracy is to place your mouse pointer on the edges of the sprocket holes and watch the green line overlay give an exact match. This proves that David Lifton is wrong to say that the Zavada shows a clearly defined left edge

Ok Duncan much better, thank you

The amount of black is so small, and not only that its not red like the color of the truck, how do you explain that?

Now lets talk about the image that goes ALL the way to the left (Full Flush Left) why can we see Clint Hill in the Z-film frames far beyond the sprocket holes but that is not the case with Zavadas frames?

How can you say Lifton is wrong?

I await your opinion Duncan

Dean

The "double hit" analysis on pages 86 to 95--which was the most scientific and impressive aspect of your book--along with your account of three gunmen murdering the president with four shots--all of which hit--on pages 115 to 140, which is summarized on pages 178 to 195, clearly implies the existence of a

Tink

This is very important, maybe not to you but it is to me

I have asked you in this thread about it and I understand that you are busy dealing with Full Flush Left but at the same time the double hit theory that YOU came up with has something to do with Z-film alteration

Again I have believed in your theory since I read it, it made perfect sense and the way you presented it in your book was outstanding

I have read the story about why you no longer support your double hit theory, but I cant see how you were so sure in SSID but then go back on it from one researcher telling you it was the from the limo slowing down and the passangers being thrown forward

Why didnt the rest of JFKs body get thrown forward with the rest of the limo? Just his head moved forward

I dont want to go into my thoughts on Z-film alteration right now because I dont want you to dismiss me as this is important to ME!

Rich Dellarosa has seen the double hit unlike myself and you have Tink

This fits in perfectly with the Z-film being altered, I hope that you taking back your double hit theory didnt have anything to do with you not wanting to be involved or labeled as an alterationist

Tink I believe that you were correct back in 1967 and you are still correct today

Can you at least give me some more info on why you dont believe in your theory anymore?

Again I would love to discuss this with you, if you want i can start a new thread

Thanks Tink

Dean