Greg Burnham

Excellent post, John. I will weigh your statements (and research background of which I need to brush up) carefully before commenting further.

I asked you a question yesterday that you never answered. In fact, you never answer any of my questions that is why you are still on my ignore list I will be honest with you, I do not read your posts, unless by accident.

It appears that most of what you have done on this forum, and perhaps elsewhere, has been by accident.

That can't be your profile photo...can it? Or are these closer to the mark? I prefer to see who it is that is asking.

So 59 witnesses said either the limo stopped or slowed dramatically. How many said slowed dramatically? How many said the limo did not slow dramatically?

Be specific. And there were more than 59 witnesses that day...

How many said the limo stopped.

How many said the limo slowed.

How many said the limo slowed dramatically.

How many said the limo did not slow at all.

Do your own research and do get back to us with those answers. I know those answers as do many others here. YOU

are the ignorant one here. I refer you to the work of Vince Palamara.

1) Houston Chronicle Reporter Bo Byers (rode in White House Press Bus) - twice stated that the Presidential Limousine "almost came to a stop, a dead stop"; in fact, he has had nightmares about this. [C-SPAN, 11/20/93, "Journalists Remember The Kennedy Assassination"; see also the 1/94 "Fourth Decade" article by Sheldon Inkol]

2) ABC Reporter Bob Clark (rode in the National Press Pool Car) - Reported on the air that the limousine stopped on Elm Street during the shooting [WFAA/ ABC, 11/22/63]

3) UPI White House Reporter Merriman Smith (rode in the same car as Clark, above) - "The President's car, possibly as much as 150 or 200 yards ahead, seemed to falter briefly..." [uPI story, 11/23/63, as reported in "Four Days", UPI, p. 32]

4) DPD motorcycle officer James W. Courson (one of two mid-motorcade motorcycles) - "The limousine came to a stop and Mrs. Kennedy was on the back. I noticed that as I came around the corner at Elm. Then the Secret Service agent [Clint Hill] helped push her back into the car, and the motorcade took off at a high rate of speed." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 129]

5) DPD motorcycle officer Bobby Joe Dale (one of two rear mid-motorcade motorcycles) - "After the shots were fired, the whole motorcade came to a stop. I stood and looked through the plaza, noticed there was commotion, and saw people running around his [JFK's] car. It started to move, then it slowed again; that's when I saw Mrs. Kennedy coming back on the trunk and another guy [Clint Hill] pushing her back into the car." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 134]

6) Clemon Earl Johnson - "You could see it [the limo] speed up and then stop, then speed up, and you could see it stop while they [sic; Clint Hill] threw Mrs. Kennedy back up in the car. Then they just left out of there like a bat of the eye and were just gone." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 80]

7) Malcolm Summers - "Then there was some hesitation in the caravan itself, a momentary halt, to give the Secret Service man [Clint Hill] a chance to catch up with the car and jump on. It seems to me that it started back up by the time he got to the car…"["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 104]

8) NBC reporter Robert MacNeil (rode in White House Press Bus)---"The President's driver slammed on the brakes - after the third shot…" ["The Way We Were, 1963: The Year Kennedy Was Shot" by Robert MacNeil (1988), p. 193]

9) AP photographer Henry Burroughs (rode in Camera Car #2) - "…we heard the shots and the motorcade stopped." [letter, Burroughs to Palamara, dated 10/14/98]

10) DPD Earle Brown - "…The first I noticed the [JFK's] car was when it stopped..after it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped." [6 H 233]

11) DPD motorcycle officer Bobby Hargis (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists)---"…At that time [immediately before the head shot] the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say 'Get going.' I felt blood hit me in the face and the Presidential car stopped almost immediately after that." [6 H 294; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71.

6/26/95 videotaped interview with Mark Oakes & Ian Griggs: "That guy (Greer) slowed down, maybe his orders was to slow down…slowed down almost to a stop." Like Posner, Hargis feels Greer gave Oswald the chance to kill Kennedy.]

12) DPD D.V. Harkness - "…I saw the first shot and the President's car slow[ed] down to almost a stop…I heard the first shot and saw the President's car almost come to a stop and some of the agents [were] piling on the car." [6 H 309]

13) DPD James Chaney (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists)---stated that the Presidential limousine stopped momentarily after the first shot (according to the testimony of Mark Lane; corroborated by the testimony of fellow DPD motorycle officer Marion Baker: Chaney told him that "…at the time, after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped…Now I have heard several of them say that, Mr. Truly was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said it stopped completely." [2 H 44-45 (Lane)---refering to Chaney's statement as reported in the "Houston Chronicle" dated 11/24/63; 3 H 266 (Baker)]

14) DPD motorcycle officer B.J. Martin (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) - saw JFK's car stop "…just for a moment." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]

15) DPD motorcycle officer Douglas L. Jackson (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) - stated "…that the car just all but stopped…just a moment." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]

16) Texas Highway Patrolman Joe Henry Rich (drove LBJ's car) - stated that "…the motorcade came to a stop momentarily." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]

17) DPD J.W. Foster - stated that "…immediately after President Kennedy was struck…the car in which he was riding pulled to the curb." [CD 897, pp. 20, 21; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97]

18) Secret Service Agent Sam Kinney (driver of the follow-up car behind JFK's limo)---indicates, via his report to Chief Rowley, that Greer hit the gas after the fatal head shot to JFK and after the President's slump to the left toward Jackie. [18 H 731-732]. From the HSCA's 2/26/78 interview of Kinney: "He also remarked that 'when Greer (the driver of the Presidential limousine) looked back, his foot must have come off the accelerator'…Kinney observed that at the time of the first shot, the speed of the motorcade was '3 to 5 miles an hour.'" [RIF#180-10078-10493; author's interviews with Kinney, 1992-1994]

19) Secret Service Agent Clint Hill (follow-up car, rear of limo)---"…I jumped from the follow-up car and ran toward the Presidential automobile. I heard a second firecracker-type noise…SA Greer had, as I jumped onto the Presidential automobile, accelerated the Presidential automobile forward." [18 H 742; Nix film; "The Secret Service" and "Inside The Secret Service" videos from 1995]

20) Secret Service Agent John Ready (follow-up car) - "…I heard what sounded like fire crackers going off from my post on the right front running board. The President's car slowed…" [18 H 750]

21) Secret Service Agent Glen Bennett (follow-up car) - after the fatal head shot "the President's car immediately kicked into high gear." [18 H 760; 24 H 541-542]. During his 1/30/78 HSCA interview, Bennett said the follow-up car was moving at "10-12 m.p.h.", an indication of the pace of the motorcade on Elm Street [RIF#180-10082-10452]

22) Secret Service Agent "Lem" Johns (V.P. follow-up car) - "…I felt that if there was danger [it was] due to the slow speed of the automobile." [18 H 774]. During his 8/8/78 HSCA interview, Johns said that "Our car was moving very slowly", a further indication of the pace of the motorcade on Elm Street [RIF# 180-10074-10079; Altgens photo]

23) Secret Service Agent Winston Lawson (rode in the lead car) - "…I think it [the lead car on Elm Street] was a little further ahead [of JFK's limo] than it had been in the motorcade, because when I looked back we were further ahead." [4 H 352], an indication of the lag in the limo during the assassination.

24) Secret Service Agent William "Tim" McIntyre (follow-up car) - "He stated that Greer, driver of the Presidential limousine, accelerated after the third shot." [RIF#180-10082-10454: 1/31/78 HSCA interview]

25) Mrs. Earle "Dearie" Cabell (rode in the Mayor's car) - the motorcade "stopped dead still when the noise of the shot was heard." [7 H 487; "Accessories After the Fact" by Sylvia Meagher (1967), p. 4; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]

26) Phil Willis - "…The [Presidential] party had come to a temporary halt before proceeding on to the underpass." [7 H 497; "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 24]

27) Mrs. Phil Willis - Marilyn - after the fatal head shot, "she stated the Presidential limousine paused momentarily and then sped away under the Triple Underpass." [FBI report dated 6/19/64; "Photographic Whitewash" by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 179]

28) Mrs. John Connally - Nellie (rode in JFK's limo) - JFK's car did not accelerate until after the fatal head shot. [4 H 147; WR 50; "Best Evidence" by David Lifton (1988), p. 122]

29) Texas Governor John Connally (rode in JFK's limo and himself a victim of the assassination) - "…After the third shot, I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, 'Bill, get out of line.' And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving a button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said 'Get us to a hospital quick'…at about this time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of line." [4 H 133; WR50; "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 13];

30) Dallas Morning News reporter Robert Baskin (rode in the National Press Pool Car) - stated that "…the motorcade ground to a halt." ["Dallas Morning News", 11/23/63, p. 2; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]

31) Dallas Morning News reporter Mary Woodward (Pillsworth) - "…Instead of speeding up the car, the car came to a halt."; she saw the President's car come to a halt after the first shot. Then, after hearing two more shots, close together, the car sped up. [2 H 43 (Lane); "Dallas Morning News," 11/23/63; 24 H 520; "The Men Who Killed Kennedy," 1988]. She spoke forcefully about the car almost coming to a stop and the lack of proper reaction by the Secret Service in 1993. [C-SPAN, 11/20/93, "Journalists Remember The Kennedy Assassination"; see also the 1/94 "Fourth Decade" article by Sheldon Inkol]

32) AP photographer James Altgens - "He said the President's car was proceeding at about ten miles per hour at the time [of the shooting]…Altgens stated the driver of the Presidential limousine apparently realized what had happened and speeded up toward the Stemmons Expressway." [FBI report dated 6/5/64; "Photographic Whitewash" by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 203] "The car's driver realized what had happened and almost if by reflex speeded up toward the Stemmons Expressway." [AP dispatch, 11/22/63; "Cover-Up" by Stewart Galanor (1998), Document 28]

33) Alan Smith - "…the car was ten feet from me when a bullet hit the President in the forehead…the car went about five feet and stopped." ["Chicago Tribune," 11/23/63, p. 9; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]

34) Mrs. Ruth M. Smith - confirmed that the Presidential limousine had come to a stop. [CD 206, p. 9; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97]

35) TSBD Supervisor Roy Truly - after the first shot "…I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in the area…[it stopped] for a second or two or something like that…I just saw it stop." [3 H 221, 266]

36) L.P. Terry - "…The parade stopped right in front of the building [TSBD]." ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 26]

37) Ochus V. Campbell - after hearing shots, "he then observed the car bearing President Kennedy to slow down, a near stop, and a motorcycle policeman rushed up. Immediately following this, he observed the car rush away from the scene." [22 H 845]

38) Peggy Joyce Hawkins - she was on the front steps of the TSBD and "…estimated that the President's car was less than 50 feet away from her when he was shot, that the car slowed down almost coming to a full stop." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97]

39) Billy Lovelady - "I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped." [22 H 662];

40) An unnamed witness - from his vantage point in the courthouse building, stated that, "The cavalcade stopped there and there was bedlam." ["Dallas Times Herald", 11/24/63; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97]

41) Postal Inspector Harry Holmes (from the Post Office Annex, while viewing through binoculars) - "…The car almost came to a stop, and Mrs. Kennedy pulled loose of him and crawled out over the turtleback of this Presidential car." [7 H 291]. He noticed the car pull to a halt, and Holmes thought: "They are dodging something being thrown." ["The Day Kennedy Was Shot" by Jim Bishop (1967), p. 176]

42) Peggy Burney - she stated that JFK's car had come to a stop. ["Dallas Times Herald", 11/24/63; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97.

Interestingly, during the 11/20/93 C-SPAN "Journalists Remember" conference, Vivian Castleberry of the Dallas Times Herald made the claim that her first cousin, Peggy Burney, was Abraham Zapruder's assistant "and was next to him when he shot his famous film. She called and said, 'Vivian, today I saw the President die.'"! See Sheldon Inkol's article on this conference in the January 1994 "Fourth Decade"]

43) David Broeder - "…The President's car paused momentarily, then on orders from a Secret Service agent, spurted ahead." ["Washington Evening Star", 11/23/63, p. 8]

44) Sam Holland - stated that the Presidential limousine slowed down on Elm Street. [taped interview with Holland conducted in April, 1965]

45) Maurice Orr - noted that the motorcade stopped. [Arch Kimbrough, Mary Ferrell, and Sue Fitch, "Chronology," unpublished manuscript; see also "Conspiracy" by Anthony Summers, pages 20 & 23]

46) Mrs. Herman (Billy P.) Clay - "…When I heard the second and third shots I knew someone was shooting at the President. I did not know if the President had been hit, but I knew something was wrong. At this point the car President Kenedy was in slowed and I, along with others, moved toward the President's car. As we neared the car it sped off." [22 H 641]

47) Mrs. Rose Clark - "…She noted that the President's automobile came almost to a halt following the three shots, before it picked up speed and drove away." [24 H 533]

48) Hugh Betzner - "…I looked down the street and I could see the President's car and another one and they looked like the cars were stopped…then the President's car sped on under the underpass." [19 H 467]

49) John Chism - after the shots he saw "the motorcade beginning to speed up." ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 29]

50) Bill Newman - after the fatal head shot "the car momentarily stopped and the driver seemed to have a radio or phone up to his ear and he seemed to be waiting on some word. Some Secret Service men reached into their car and came out with some sort of machine gun. Then the cars roared off…"; "I've maintained that they stopped. I still say they did. It was only a momentary stop, but…" ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 70; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 96]

"I believe Kennedy's car came to a full stop after the final shot." ["JFK: Breaking The Silence" by Bill Sloan (1993), p. 169]

"…I believe it was the passenger in the front seat [Roy Kellerman]---there were two men in the front seat---had a telephone or something to his ear and the car momentarily stopped. Now everywhere that you read about it, you don't read anything about the car stopping. And when I say "stopped" I mean very momentarily, like they hit the brakes and just a few seconds passed and then they floorboarded [sic] and accelerated on." [11/20/97 videotaped interview with Bill Law, Mark Row, & Ian Griggs, as transcribed in "November Patriots" by Connie Kritzberg & Larry Hancock (1998), p. 362]

"One of the two men in the front seat of the car had a telephone in his hand, and as I was looking back at the car covering my son, I can remember seeing the tail lights of the car, and just for a moment they hesitated and stopped, and then they floorboarded [sic] the car and shot off." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 96]

51) Charles Brehm - "Brehm expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the President's car only seemed to move some 10 or 12 feet. It seemed to him that the automobile almost came to a halt after the first shot…After the third shot, the car in which the President was riding increased its speed and went under the freeway overpass and out of sight." [22 H 837-838]

52) Mary Moorman - "She recalls that the President's automobile was moving at the time she took the second picture, and when she heard the shots, and has the impression that the car either stopped momentarily or hesistated and then drove off in a hurry." [22 H 838-839]

53) Jean Hill - "…The motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots rang out and I would say it [JFK's limo] was just approximately, if not - it couldn't have been in the same position, I'm sure it wasn't, but just a very, very short distance from where it had been. It [JFK's limo] was just almost stunned." [6 H 208-209; Hill's testimony on this matter was dramatized in the Oliver Stone movie "JFK" (1991): "The driver had stopped - I don't know what was wrong with that driver." See also "JFK: The Book of the Film" (1992), p. 122. Therein is referenced a March 1991 conversation with Jean Hill.]

54) James Leon Simmons - "…The car stopped or almost stopped." [2/15/69 Clay Shaw trial testimony; "Forgive My Grief Vol. III" by Penn Jones, p. 53; "High Treason" by Groden & Livingstone (1990 Berkley Edition), p. 22]

55) Norman Similas - "…The Presidential limousine had passed me and slowed down slightly." ["Liberty" Magazine, 7/15/64, p. 13; "Photographic Whitewash" by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 233];

56) Presidential Aide Ken O'Donnell (rode in the follow-up car) - "…If the Secret Service men in the front had reacted quicker to the first two shots at the President's car, if the driver had stepped on the gas before instead of after the fatal third shot was fired, would President Kennedy be alive today? [as quoted in Marrs' "Crossfire," p. 248, based off a passage from O'Donnell & Powers' book "Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye"]. On page 40 of O'Donnell's book "Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye," the aide reports that "Greer had been remorseful all day, feeling that he could have saved President Kenendy's life by swerving the car or speeding suddenly after the first shots." Indeed, William E. Sale, an airman first class aircraft mechanic assigned to Carswell AFB and who was stationed at Love Field before, during, and after the assassination, stated that "when the agent who was driving JFK's car came back to Air Force One he was as white as a ghost and had to be helped back to the plane *[undated Sale letter, provided to the author by Martin Shackelford]

57) Presidential aide Dave Powers (rode in the follow-up car) - "…At that time we were traveling very slowly…At about the time of the third shot, the President's car accelerated sharply." [7 H 473-475]. On 11/22/88, Powers was interviewed by CBS' Charles Kuralt. Powers remarked about the remorse Greer felt about not speeding up in time to save JFK"s life and agreed with Kuralt that, if Greer had sped up BEFORE the fatal head shot instead of afterwards, JFK might still be alive today [CBS, 11/22/88---this is a very dramatic and compelling short interview]. If that weren't enough, the ARRB's Tom Samoluk told me that, during the course of an interview he conducted in 1996 in which the Board was in the process of obtaining Powers' film, Powers said that he agreed with my take on the Secret Service!

58) Texas Senator Ralph Yarborough (rode in LBJ's car) - "…When the noise of the shot was heard, the motorcade slowed to what seemed to me a complete stop (though it could have been a near stop)…After the third shot was fired, but only after the third shot was fired, the cavalcade speeded up, gained speed rapidly, and roared away to the Parkland Hospital."; "…The cars all stopped. I put in there [his affidavit], 'I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but for the protection of future Presidents, they [the Secret Service] should be trained to take off when a shot is fired." [7 H 439-440; "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 482; see also "The Men Who Killed Kennedy," 1988: "The Secret Service in the car in front of us kind of casually looked around and were rather slow to react."]

59) First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy (rode in the Presidential limousine) - "We could see a tunnel in front of us. Everything was really slow then…[immediately after shooting] And just being down in the car with his head in my lap. And it just seemed an eternity…And finally I remember a voice behind me, or something, and then I remember the people in the front seat, or somebody, finally knew something was wrong, and a voice yelling, which must have been Mr. Hill, "Get to the hospital," or maybe it was Mr. Kellerman, in the front seat…We were really slowing turning the corner [Houston&Elm]…I remember a sensation of enormous speed, which must have been when we took off…those poor men in the front…" [5 H 179-181] Mary Gallagher reported in her book: "She mentioned one Secret Service man who had not acted during the crucial moment, and said bitterly to me, 'He might just as well have been Miss Shaw!'" ["My Life With Jacqueline Kennedy" by Mary Barelli Gallagher (1969), p. 342---Secret Service Agent Marty Venker and Jackie biographer C. David Heymann confirm that this unnamed agent was indeed Greer ("Confessions of an Ex-Secret Service Agent", p. 25; "A Woman Called Jackie", p. 401)] Jackie also told Gallagher that "You should get yourself a good driver so that nothing ever happens to you" [ibid., p. 351]

* William Manchester, who interviewed Greer, tells us what the driver told Jackie on 11/22/63 at Parkland Hospital: "Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, oh my God, oh my God. I didn't mean to do it[?!?!], I didn't hear[who, Kellerman?], I should have swerved the car[how about hitting the gas!], I couldn't help it[!]. Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, as soon as I saw it[?] I swerved. If only I'd seen it in time! Oh!" (Manchester, p.290). 59 witnesses (10 police officers, 7 Secret Service agents, 37 spectators, 2 Presidential aides, 1 Senator, Governor Connally, and Jackie Kennedy) and the Zapruder film document Secret Service agent William R. Greer's deceleration of the presidential limousine, as well as his two seperate looks back at JFK during the assassination (Greer denied all of this to the Warren Commission-2HGREER[see his entire testimony]). By decelerating from an already slow 11.2 mph, Greer greatly endangered the President's life, and, as even Gerald Posner admitted, Greer contributed greatly to the success of the assassination. When we consider that Greer disobeyed a direct order from his superior, Roy Kellerman, to get out of line BEFORE the fatal shot struck the President's head, it is hard to give Agent Greer the benefit of the doubt. As ASAIC Roy H. Kellerman said: "Greer then looked in the back of the car. Maybe he didn't believe me"("The Death of a President" by William Manchester, p.160). Clearly, Greer was responsible, at fault, and felt remorse. In short, Greer had survivor's guilt.

But, then, stories and feelings changed.

Agent Greer to the FBI 11/22/63: "Greer stated that he first heard what he thought was possibly a motorcycle backfire and glanced around and noticed that the President had evidently been hit [notice that, early on, Greer admits seeing JFK, which the Zapruder proves he did two times before the fatsal head shot occurred]. He thereafter got on the radio and communicated with the other vehicles, stating that they desired to get the President to the hospital immediately [in reality, Greer did not talk on the radio, and Greer went on to deny ever saying this during his WC testimony]…Greer stated that they (the Secret Service) have always been instructed to keep the motorcade moving at a considerable speed inasmuch as a moving car offers a much more difficult target than a vehicle traveling at a very slow speed. He pointed out that on numerous occasions he has attempted to keep the car moving at a rather fast rate, but in view of the President's popularity and desire to maintain close liaison with the people, he has, on occasion, been instructed by the President to "slow down". Greer stated that he has been asking himself if there was any thing he could have done to have avoided this incident, but stated that things happened so fast that he could not account for full developments in this matter(!) [the "JFK-as-scapegoat" theme…and so much for Greer's remorse from earlier the same day!]."(Sibert & O'Neil Report, 11/22/63)

Agent Greer to the FBI 11/27/63: "…he heard a noise which sounded like a motorcycle backfire. On hearing this noise he glanced to his right toward Kellerman and out of the corner of his eye noticed that the Governor appeared to be falling toward his wife [notice that Greer now mentions nothing about seing JFK hit---he does the same thing in his undated report in the WC volumes (18 H 723)] He thereafter recalls hearing some type of outcry after which Kellerman said, "Let's get out of here." He further related that at the time of hearing the sound he was starting down an incline which passes beneath a railroad crossing and after passing under this viaduct, he closed in on the lead car and yelled to the occupants and a nearby police motorcyclist, "Hospital, Hospital! [nothing about using the radio this time out]" Thereafter follows a complete physical description of Greer, as if the FBI agents considered him a suspect, inc. age, height, and color of eyes! (Sibert & O'Neil Report, 11/29/63)

Critical excerpts from Greer's 3/9/64 Warren Commission testimony before Arlen Specter:

Mr. Specter.

Were you able to see anything of President Kennedy as you glanced to the rear?

Mr. Greer.

No, sir; I didn't see anything of the President, I didn't look, I wasn't far enough around to see the President.

Mr. Specter.

When you started that glance, are you able to recollect whether you started to glance before, exactly simultaneously with or after that second shot?

Mr. Greer.

It was almost simultaneously that he had--something had hit, you know, when I had seen him. It seemed like in the same second almost that something had hit, you know, whenever I turned around. I saw him start to fall.

Mr. Specter.

Did you step on the accelerator before, simultaneously or after Mr. Kellerman instructed you to accelerate?

Mr. Greer.

It was about simultaneously.

Mr. Specter.

So that it was your reaction to accelerate prior to the time--

Mr. Greer.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter.

You had gotten that instruction?

Mr. Greer.

Yes, sir; it was my reaction that caused me to accelerate.

Mr. Specter.

Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the same time or after the third shot?

Mr. Greer.

I couldn't really say. Just as soon as I turned my head back from the second shot, right away I accelerated right then. It was a matter of my reflexes to the accelerator.

Mr. Specter.

Was it at about that time that you heard the third shot?

Mr. Greer.

Yes, sir; just as soon as I turned my head

[…]

Mr. Specter.

To the best of your current recollection, did you notice that the President had been hit?

Mr. Greer.

No, sir; I didn't know how badly he was injured or anything other than that. I didn't know.

Mr. Specter.

Did you know at all, from the glance which you have described that he had been hit or injured in any way?

Mr. Greer.

I knew he was injured in some way, but I didn't know how bad or what.

Mr. Specter.

How did you know that?

Mr. Greer.

If I remember now, I just don't remember how I knew, but I knew we were in trouble. I knew that he was injured, but I can't remember, recollect, just how I knew there were injuries in there. I didn't know who all was hurt, even.

Mr. Specter.

Are you able to recollect whether you saw the President after the shots as you were proceeding toward Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Greer.

No; I don't remember ever seeing him any more until I got to the hospital, and he was lying across the seat, you know, and that is the first I had seen of him.

Mr. Specter.

Your best recollection is, then, that you had the impression he was injured but you couldn't ascertain the source of that information?

Mr. Greer.

Right. I couldn't ascertain the source.

Warren Commission finding: "The driver, Special Agent William R. Greer, has testified that he accelerated the car after what was probably the second shot...The Presidential car did not stop or almost come to a complete halt after the firing of the first shot or any other shots."(WC Report, page 641)

11/19/64 interview with "Death of a President" author William Manchester [RIF#180-10116-10119]---"After the second shot I glanced back. I saw blood on the Governor's white shirt, and I knew we were in trouble. The blood was coming out of his right breast. When I heard the first shot, I had thought it was a backfire. I was tramping on the accelerator and at the same time Roy was saying, let's get out of here fast."

But remember what Roy Kellerman said: "Greer then looked in the back of the car. Maybe he didn't believe me"("The Death of a President" by William Manchester, p.160).

2/28/78 HSCA interview [RIF#180-10099-10491]---"The first shot sounded to him like a backfire. He did not react to it. After the second shot he turned to his right and saw blood on Governor Connally's shirt. At the same moment he heard Kellerman say "We're hit. Let's get out of here," or words to that effect. He said he immediately accelerated and followed the pilot car to Parkland Hospital [However, DNC Advance man Jack Puterbaugh, who rode in the pilot car, said they "pulled over and let the motorcade pass" (HSCA interview 4/14/78). The Washington Post from 2/28/85 reported Greer as saying that "I just looked straight ahead at the car in which the police chief was leading our way to the hospital"---this is the lead car. Nevertheless, the Daniel film and still photos depict the limousine AHEAD of the lead car, as it appear it was the lead motorcyclists who actually guided Greer to Parkland! (see pp. 21-22 and 59 of "The Third Alternative" by the author)]

Bill Greer passed away from Cancer on 2/23/85.

Tell us some things that all the witnesses said happened that the photographic evidence does not confirm happened.

The limousine came to a complete stop or slowed to a near stop.

There were 59 witnesses who reported that the limousine either slowed dramatically or came to a complete STOP after

the first shot had been fired. These witnesses are not easily dismissed. One witnesses was a Dallas Police Motor Officer who was

escorting the president to the trade mart, Officer James Chaney. He said it came to a complete stop, as did several other officers.

Roy Truly of the TSBD who was outside the building observing said: "I saw the president's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres

down in the area [where it happened] for a second or two or something like that...I just saw it stop."

The wife of Dallas Mayor Earle Cabell ("Dearie") was riding in the mayor's car and reported that the motorcade "stopped dead

still when the noise from the shot was heard."

There are 56 others. Do your own research. You are way behind on all of this.

Greg: I think it is good that you are focusing on the back wound. It deserves plenty of attention. Re: your statement "There was no "surgery" evident in the back at the completion of the autopsy or at any other time. So, if they surgically removed these bullets how did they do so without leaving any evidence of surgery?" . . . : That is not quite true.

Please do not forget Dr. Perry's testimony about what Humes said to him, during the critical phone call the two had on 11/23: "Did you make any wounds in the back?"

Here's the exact quote from Perry's WC deposition: ". . . he asked me at that time [Nov 23, 1963] if we had made any wounds in the back." (WC Vol , p. 17)

True, that is not "direct evidence" of surgery, but for Humes, an experiences pathologist, to ask Perry a question like that surely implies that there was something about that wound that struck him as peculiar.

David:

These are all good considerations to be sure, imho. However, as for the "peculiar nature" of the back wound, about which Humes questioned Perry, in my view it is equally plausible that he was referring to the fact that it was an extremely shallow wound of entrance for which there was no exit. That alone would warrant the question as Humes would need to rule out the Parkland doctors as the source.

I would also call your attention to the following "collateral" pieces of evidence. None of this constitutes "direct evidence" of surgery, of course, but it sure seems relevant to me:

(1) Nowhere in the autopsy report or testimony is there any evidence that the back wound had an "abrasion collar". (Yet the presence of an abrasion collar is the sin qua non of a genuine bullet wound.

(2) In their FD-302 report, FBI Agents Sibert and O'Neill refer to the rear entry wound, into which they saw one of the doctors poke his finger as an "opening" in the back

(3) That Clark Panel (which examined the autopsy photos in 1968) went out of its way to note that the entry wound that was visible in the official autopsy photographs was too small to "permit the insertion of a finger" (quoting, from memory)

(4) As discussed in Chapter 31 of BEST EVIDENCE, a ruler (which doesn't seem to be performing any real function) conceals the area where Sibert and O'Neill report this "opening", in the same photo that shows the supposed entry wound, this time (i.e., in the photograph) sporting a nicely visible abrasion collar.

(5 ) There exists an official receipt for a "missile" removed from the body, etc.

If all these elements were laid out in an episode of "LAW AND ORDER" or CSI, the next plot development would be for one of the investigators to say, "Hey, that image in the official photo can't possibly be the 'wound' which that doctor inserted his finger!" and "Gee, I wonder what's under the ruler!" and. . finally. . (and this is not going to happen in the JFK case, let me assure you I realize that). . . "Let's get the judge to order an exhumation."

Let's take the "wide angle" view of this entire situation (just as I did, when writing BEST EVIDENCE): In lining up the evidence for "body alteration" (more precisely stated, "wound alteration"), the head wounds provide the strongest evidence; the throat wound is next in line; and the two rear entries come last.

I think the fundamental threshold question is: Did anyone monkey with the body? Is there any evidence of that--at all?

The head wound evidence (per Ch. 13, in BEST EVIDENCE) provides the answer: a resounding "yes". Next comes a similar question, posed re the neck (i.e., throat wound). Again (see Ch 11 of B.E.) the answer is "yes."

Once one establishes there is any monkeying around with the body, one has to approach the two rear entries--neither of which were seen in Dallas--from that perspective.

Although I see your point, and agree with it--that there was monkeying around with the body--still, that no doctor reported having seen a back wound in Dallas could easily be a function of the fact that the Parkland doctors were not exploring the body to determine cause of death, as in an autopsy, rather they were attempting to save the president's life. Because of the severity of the head wound and the severity of the throat wound, which apparently was recognized as obstructing the airway necessitating a tracheotomy, I believe the Parkland doctors had their hands full dealing with the immediate threat to life. Therefore the president was lying face up with his back unexposed for scrutiny. After he was pronounced dead it is unlikely that any of the trauma room doctors would feel the need to roll him over and examine his back. Of course, the coroner would have done so, but shortly after the president was pronounced dead the SS took custody of the body thus disallowing examination by the medical examiner and certainly preventing any scrutiny of the back. So the fact that the evidence of back wounds was absent in the Dallas doctors' reports is not evidence of their absence in the president's body.

(1) Nowhere in the autopsy report or testimony is there any evidence that the back wound had an "abrasion collar". (Yet the presence of an abrasion collar is the sin qua non of a genuine bullet wound.

True enough, however... flechette darts are not "genuine bullets" and therefore wounds inflicted by soluble flechette darts do not impart "abrasion collars" to the victim.

Kudos for your reply to the Rag Man.

... The hole suggests it WAS there, and as I say, if HUMES and BOSWELL took the bullets out of JFK themselves,

asking whether there are dissolvable bullets is pretty clever - don't you think?

One of the problems with that scenario, David, is that it is inconsistent with an extremely shallow wound to the back.

They could barely get the tip of their pinky to where the path ended. There was no "surgery" evident in the back at

the completion of the autopsy or at any other time. So, if they surgically removed these bullets how did they do so

without leaving any evidence of surgery?

I am not necessarily convinced that the flechette dart was used, but I will not rule it out based on the evidence nor on

arguments that I have thus far seen entertained by detractors. I've been looking at this evidence for almost 2 decades

and even Fletcher Prouty told me when I brought it up that he was almost certain it was used. He based his opinion on

the characteristics of the wounds and the effect on the target, that are unique to this weapon system. He was the one

who originally got it approved for development for the CIA.

Monk, did Prouty ever say anything about Mitchell WerBell or Sidney Gottlieb in connection with his suspicions?

I think those two guys are "persons of interest" based on the historical record itself, ¬ entirely speculative.

No, he never mentioned them to me in relation to this weapon system.

... The hole suggests it WAS there, and as I say, if HUMES and BOSWELL took the bullets out of JFK themselves,

asking whether there are dissolvable bullets is pretty clever - don't you think?

One of the problems with that scenario, David, is that it is inconsistent with an extremely shallow wound to the back.

They could barely get the tip of their pinky to where the path ended. There was no "surgery" evident in the back at

the completion of the autopsy or at any other time. So, if they surgically removed these bullets how did they do so

without leaving any evidence of surgery?

I am not necessarily convinced that the flechette dart was used, but I will not rule it out based on the evidence nor on

arguments that I have thus far seen entertained by detractors. I've been looking at this evidence for almost 2 decades

and even Fletcher Prouty told me when I brought it up that he was almost certain it was used. He based his opinion on

the characteristics of the wounds and the effect on the target, that are unique to this weapon system. He was the one

who originally got it approved for development for the CIA.

You and others are trying to create a hostile environment for me on this forum.. I believe there are rules against that.

When you start attacking people that is the result.

Like I said, the Mike Rago on Facebook couldn't be you because he is obviously a horse's ass. Just look at him! But, inquiring minds want to know who you are.

I looked you up (without using "back channels" YET) and all I found that resembled you was on Facebook, except he looks like a horse's arse. http://www.facebook.com/mike.rago.712

Lee attacking the messenger is one of your favorite ploys when you are put between a rock and a hard place I found that out yesterday.

You can think what ever you want about my name and picture because it will not matter to you what I say. But be careful what you say about my name and picture.

I have a few outstanding questions of you that you have not answered.

And I suggest that you refrain from issuing veiled threats.

I hear he's a ringer for a guy named Bob. (Sorry couldn't resist.)

Dawn

I heard he works for the law firm of:

Ralpy, Billy Bob, John Boy, & Goober.

Welcome back Ralph. We didn't miss you.

...

It is at this point in a thread that I become dismayed by the fact that the individual appears to not be sincerely seeking to discuss this matter.

I only hope that novices who are perhaps reading this information for the first time will benefit from the exchange.

I'm out before I am tempted to violate forum rules.

What you are addressin...

What you are questioning is the second component of the SBT, where did the bullet go after

it exited the presidents neck. If there is an error in the SBT this is where it is at. Where did the bullet go after it exited the neck?

I have a hypothesis on that.

According to the SBT of which you subscribe, it went into the Governor's back, shattered 2 ribs and exited just under his right nipple.

If you have an hypothesis that differs from that then you do not subscribe to the SBT. So, which is it? Do you believe

the SBT is true or do you believe it is a lie?

Autopsy Report:

The other missile entered the right superior posterior thorax above

the scapula and traversed the soft tissues of the supra-scapular and

the supra-clavicular portions of the base of the right side of the neck.

This missile produced contusions of the right apical parietal pleura

and of the apical portion of the right upper lobe of the lung. The

missile contused the strap muscles of the right side of the neck,

damaged the trachea and made its exit through the anterior surface of

the neck. As far as can be ascertained this missile struck no bony

structures in its path through the body.

----

Their diagram of this is:

Note the necessity for them to tilt JFK's head forward in order to allow a bullet from BEHIND to

enter where it entered in his back AND then to exit his throat. Remember, this bullet caused NO

broken bones and didn't appear to get deflected by any bone. So, his head must be forward in

order to accommodate their explanation. However, from such an angle of trajectory how is it

remotely possible for said bullet to then wound Governor Connally since Connally was not lying

on the floor at JFK's feet when he was shot?

deleted

You need to produce a theory that is not more bizarre than the the theory you are trying to debunk.

No we do not. Moreover, such irresponsible speculation has been the undoing of the research community for nearly 5 decades.

The burden of proof is on those who claim to know what happened. I make no such claim. I claim to know what did NOT happen.

The SBT did not happen. None of the evidence supports it. Indeed, the evidence supports multiple bullets beyond those cited in the

WCR. Exactly how many? As many as it took.

Can't you read? There was a very shallow back wound of entrance and NO corresponding wound of exit. That is evidence whether

or not you like it. It is evidence that debunks the lone gunman/SBT in one fell swoop. And there is much more. But, you already know

that.

I know that all opinions are welcome on this forum. However, you are not responding as an honest broker. You are choosing to argue

your point simply because it is yours, but not because it sheds light on the truth. And you argue it illogically.

There must be something that you are not telling. If that is the only evidence that exists for the back wound there would be no argument for SBT. James Gordon would not have had to waste all this time on the anatomy models.

What is the evidence that shows the contrary regarding the probing of the back wound? It has to exist.

We are still missing one bullet and one exit wound.

================================================================================

FBI Report

DL 100-10461/cv

A. AUTOPSY OF BODY OF PRESIDENT JOHN FITZGERALD KENNEDY

On 11/22/63 at Bethesda, Maryland

File #89-30

by SAs FRANCIS X. O’NEILL, JR.; JAMES W. SIBERT:dfl

Date dictated 11/26/63

At approximately 3 p.m. on November 22, 1963, following the President’s announced assassination, it was ascertained that Air Force One, the President’s jet, was returning from Love Field, Dallas, Texas, flying the body back to Andrews Air Force Base, Camp Springs, Maryland. SAs FRANCIS X. O’NEILL, JR. and JAMES W. SIBERT proceeded to Andrews Air Force Base to handle any matters which would fall within the jurisdiction of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, inasmuch as it was anticipated that a large group of both military and civilian personnel assigned to the Base would congregate at Base Operations to witness the landing of this flight.

Lt. Col. Robert T. best, Director of Law Enforcement and Security, advised the President’s plane would arrive at 5:25 p.m. Subsequently, Col. BEST advised that the plane would arrive at 6:05 p.m.

At approximately 5:55 p.m., agents were advised through the Hyattsville Resident Agency that the Bureau had instructed that the agents accompany the body to the National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda, Maryland, to stay with the body and to obtain bullets reportedly in the President’s body.

Immediately agents contacted Mr. JAMES ROWLEY, the Director of the U. S. Secret Service, identified themselves and made Mr. Rowley aware of our aforementioned instruction. Immediately following the plane’s landing, Mr. ROWLEY arranged seating for Bureau agents in the third car of the White House motorcade which followed the ambulance containing the President’s body to the Naval Medical Center, Bethesda, Maryland.

On arrival at the Medical Center, the ambulance stopped in front of the main entrance, at which time Mrs. JACQUELINE KENNEDY and Attorney General ROBERT KENNEDY embarked from the ambulance and entered the building. The ambulance was thereafter driven around to the rear entrance where the President’s body was removed and taken into an autopsy room. Bureau agents assisted in the moving of the casket to the autopsy room. A tight security was immediately placed around the autopsy room by the Naval facility and the U. S. Secret Service. Bureau agents made contact with Mr. ROY KELLERMAN, the Assistant Secret Service Agent in Charge of the White House Detail, and advised him of the Bureau’s interest in this matter. He advised that he had already received instructions from Director ROWLEY as to the presence of Bureau agents. It will be noted that the aforementioned Bureau agents, Mr. ROY KELLERMAN, Mr. WILLIAM GREER and Mr. WILLIAM O’LEARY, Secret Service agents, were the only personnel other than medical personnel present during the autopsy.

The following individuals attended the autopsy:

During the course of the autopsy, Lt. Col. P. FINCK, U. S. Army Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, arrived to assist Commander HUMES in the autopsy. In addition, Lt. Cmdr. GREGG CROSS and Captain DAVID OSBORNE, Chief of Surgery, entered the autopsy room.

Major General WEHLE, Commanding Officer of U. S. Military District, Washington, D.C., entered the autopsy room to ascertain from the Secret Service arrangements concerning the transportation of the President’s body back to the White House. AMC CHESTER H. BOYERS, U. S. Navy, visited the autopsy room during the final stages of such to type receipts given by FBI and Secret Service for items obtained.

At the termination of the autopsy, the following personnel from Gawler’s Funeral Home entered the autopsy room to prepare the President’s body for burial:

Brigidier General GODFREY McHUGH, Air Force Military Aide to the President, was also present, as was Dr. GEORGE BAKEMAN, U. S. Navy.

Arrangements were made for the performance of the autopsy by the U. S. Navy and Secret Service.

The President’s body was removed from the casket in which it had been transported and was placed on the autopsy table, at which time the complete body was wrapped in a sheet and the head area contained an additional wrapping which was saturated with blood. Following the removal of the wrapping, it was ascertained that the President’s clothing had been removed and it was also apparent that a tracheotomy had been performed, as well as surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of the skull. All personnel with the exception of medical officers needed in the taking of photographs and X-Rays were requested to leave the autopsy room and remain in an adjacent room.

Upon completion of X-Rays and photographs, the first incision was made at 8:15 p.m. X-Rays of the brain area which were developed and returned to the autopsy room disclosed a path of a missile which appeared to enter the back of the skull and the path of disintegrated fragments could be observed along the right side of the skull. The largest section of this missile as portrayed by X-Ray appeared to be behind the right frontal sinus. The next largest fragment appeared to be at the rear of the skull at the juncture of the skull bone.

The Chief Pathologist advised approximately 40 particles of disintegrated bullet and smudges indicated that the projectile had fragmentized while passing through the skull region.

During the autopsy inspection of the area of the brain, two fragments of metal were removed by Dr. HUMES, namely, one fragment measuring 7 x 2 millimeters, which was removed from the right side of the brain. An additional fragment of metal measuring 1 x 3 millimeters was also removed from this area, both of which were placed in a glass jar containing a black metal top which were thereafter marked for identification and following the signing of a proper receipt were transported by Bureau agents to the FBI Laboratory.

During the latter stages of this autopsy, Dr. HUMES located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole which was below the shoulders and two inches to the right of the middle line of the spinal column. This opening was probed by Dr. HUMES with the finger, at which time it was determined that the trajectory of the missile entering at this point had entered at a downward position of 45 to 60 degrees. Further probing determined that the distance traveled by this missile was a short distance inasmuch as the end of the opening could be felt with the finger.

Inasmuch as no complete bullet of any size could be located in the brain area and likewise no bullet could be located in the back or any other area of the body as determined by total body X-Rays and inspection revealing there was no point of exit, the individuals performing the autopsy were at a loss to explain why they could find no bullets.

A call was made by Bureau agents to the Firearms Section of the FBI Laboratory, at which time SA CHARLES L. KILLION advised that the Laboratory had received through Secret Service Agent RICHARD JOHNSON a bullet which had reportedly been found on a stretcher in the emergency room of Parkland Hospital, Dallas, Texas. This stretcher had also contained a stethoscope and pair of rubber gloves. Agent JOHNSON had advised the Laboratory that it had not been ascertained whether or not this was the stretcher which had been used to transport the body of President KENNEDY. Agent KILLION further described this bullet as pertaining to a 6.5 millimeter rifle which would be approximately a 25 caliber rifle and that this bullet consisted of a copper alloy full jacket.

Immediately following receipt of this information, this was made available to Dr. HUMES who advised that in his opinion this accounted for no bullet being located which had entered the back region and that since external cardiac massage had been performed at Parkland Hospital, it was entirely possible that through such movement the bullet had worked its way back out of the point of entry and had fallen on the stretcher.

Also during the latter stages of the autopsy, a piece of the skull measuring 10 x 6.5 centimeters was brought to Dr. HUMES who was instructed that this had been removed from the President’s skull. Immediately this section of skull was X-Rayed, at which time it was determined by Dr. HUMES that one corner of this section revealed minute metal particles and inspection of this same area disclosed a chipping of the top portion of this piece, both of which indicated that this had been the point of exit of the bullet entering the skull region.

On the basis of the latter two developments, Dr. HUMES stated that the pattern was clear that the one bullet had entered the President’s back and had worked its way out of the body during external cardiac massage and that a second high velocity bullet had entered the rear of the skull and had fragmentized prior to exit through the top of the skull. He further pointed out that X-Rays had disclosed numerous fractures in the cranial area which he attributed to the force generated by the impact of the bullet in its passage through the brain area. He attributed the death of the President to a gunshot wound in the head.

The following is a complete listing of photographs and X-Rays taken by the medical authorities of the President’s body. They were turned over to Mr. Roy KELLERMAN of the Secret Service. X-Rays were developed by the hospital, however, the photographs were delivered to Secret Service undeveloped:

Mr. KELLERMAN stated these items could be made available to the FBI upon request. The portion of the skull measuring 10 x 6.5 centimeters was maintained in the custody of Dr. HUMES who stated that it also could be made available for further examination. The two metal frgments removed from the brain area were hand carried by SAs SIBERT and O’NEILL to the FBI Laboratory immediately following the autopsy and were turned over to SA KURT FRAZIER.

[emphasis added]

Mr. Rago is demonstrating his penchant for minimizing that to which he either lacks the intellectual capacity to understand or the courage to accept.

That is not to say that I necessarily subscribe to the supposition that this weapon system was definitely employed in Dallas. I do not. However, merely

acknowledging the fact that there is sufficient supporting evidence to entertain the possibility does seem warranted.

But not for Mr. Rago who authoritatively pronounced his papal ruling on this subject, as well as many others, from on high: as if he is speaking from first

hand knowledge. Yet, nothing could be farther from the truth. His lack of understanding permeates nearly every one of the many topics he has started on

this forum. His lack of a basic grasp of the evidence is gargantuan. Mind you, this alone is nothing about which he should feel ashamed. However, his far-

reaching arrogance is. It is embarrassing to observe.

Mr. Rago behaves as if he knows for certain “what did or did not” happen. He utters pronouncements of dismissal to render as trivial any areas of study in

which he has never even before been engaged! Yet, it has taken seasoned researchers sometimes more than a decade to reach conclusions about these

subjects. Many are still undecided because there exists conflicting evidence, which still has yet to “settle” sufficiently to render absolute judgments. But, not

for Mike Rago: he is certain after only a few weeks—sometimes after a few minutes—of research.

Perhaps other seasoned researchers will be more patient with him, but I suspect there will be few if any.

We’ve seen this type before. They burst on the scene from obscurity claiming and/or behaving as if they have all the answers—at least all the important ones.

And then they’re gone.

I can hardly wait.

Yes and that is why it would not leave a 6mm hole.

Dart guns are in use today. Zoo's use them all the time to put animals to sleep from a distance. When the animal is knocked out they pull the dart out. I suppose that is how special ops might have used this weapon on a dog.

Killing the president of the united states is a high risk operation. They did not use a weapon designed for a dog.

Mike,

This weapon system is not even remotely similar to tranquilizer darts used by animal handlers in zoos. Have you ever seen

an animal control officer or a zoo employee use a "dart gun" that was a modified Colt .45? Have you ever seen an animal

in the zoo get shot with a dart and remain wide awake, yet be COMPLETELY PARALYZED within 1.5 to 2 seconds? If you

had read the testimony you would know that the CIA began testing and developing it for use on human targets.

Are you going to tell us that it would leave a 6mm hole?

I don't know exactly how large a hole it would leave. But, there would be an entrance wound present for sure. Moreover, remember that the alleged original purpose of this

weapon system was to render guard dogs instantly immobile -- 46-40 works extremely fast -- paralyzing to the point of preempting even a bark within a couple seconds. Dogs,

of course, have fur. A small wound of entrance would not be seen.

So, in a Special Op where our forces are violating international law by penetrating another sovereign state's facilities it is imperative that they not only escape undetected, but

there be absolutely no residual presence. If the dogs appear to be completely undamaged and alert the next day, yet sounded no alarm, it is nearly impossible for the host

nation to prove their perimeter was compromised even though they were demonstrably the victims of sabotage.

"The

chemical and the delivery system (dart)

are both soluble within the body and leave no discernible trace."

The above is what you said. The dart and chemical leave no discernible trace. This implies there is no discernible wound track and surely not a 6mm hole.

Where did you get this quote?

I wrote it myself, Mike. Did you read the testimony from the Church Committee on the previous page? The Director of the CIA, William Colby, and the developer

of the weapon system, Charles Senseny, from the Biological Warfare Section of Fort Detrick, testified to the same information of which I wrote except in detail.

Also, Colonel L. Fletcher Prouty, Chief of Special Operations, spoke to me in great detail about it.

Your reference did not say wounds. Where does your referece say wounds are discernible? It said no discernible trace. And how big would these wounds be?

What is wrong with you? Read it again. I said NOTHING about wounds. I never said wounds were or were not discernible.

I said:

In other words, the dart is indiscernible because it MELTED and leaves no trace of itself inside the body. The toxin is indiscernible

because there was no test to detect its presence or perhaps it has a very short half-life.