Greg Burnham

Colby is lost again. I am not concerned so much with attempting to exonerate Sirhan as I am concerned with indicting those who perpetrated a fraud on the American people, who perpetuate the cover-up, and are guilty of obstruction of justice.

Substatiated?

Even from Wiki:

[speaking of Noguchi]

His autopsy of Kennedy is significant for its conclusion that the fatal shot was fired into the back of Kennedy's head, behind the right ear, from an upward angle, and from a distance of no more than one-and-a-half to three inches away. This has given rise to conspiracy theories regarding the assassination, as no witnesses reported seeing the convicted assassin, Sirhan Sirhan, in a position to fire such a shot. Noguchi himself points out, in his memoir Coroner, that he has never officially ruled that Sirhan fired the fatal shot.

In cases where the Medical Examiner refuses to name the accused as the murderer due to the determined cause of death being impossible from the position of the defendant, the outcome of the trial would normally be quite different. In this case, Thomas Noguchi determined that all shots were fired from behind Kennedy including the kill shot, which entered behind his right ear at a distance of no more than 1.5 to 3 inches away. In other words, fired at point blank range. Yet, at no time was Sirhan 1) that close to Kennedy; 2) behind Kennedy; 3) nor was RFK's back ever turned toward Sirhan. In an interview with me, Noguchi said: "Sirhan did not kill Kennedy if the facts as we know them are accurate."[paraphrased]

Is there any other case in history where the defendant was still convicted of the crime given the testimony of the Medical Examiner?

There is no doubt as to Secret Service complicity in Dallas. However, it need not have involved ALL of them. Indeed, it most certainly did not. Only a select few near or at the top were required in order to pull it off.

Thanks Joe.

As I said in Dallas about two years ago, it has been extremely difficult to get to the bottom of this subject because of files that are missing or unavailable. Interesting that it is not just the "classified" files that are unavailable, but also ones that should be easy to find/obtain are not. I don't have those documents either, but I was recently told that they were at the library.

It seems to me a lot of members might suspect Bobby did not want an examination of the brain or body at that time because of the can of worms it would open, so to speak; for whatever that's worth.

I agree, Steven. As frustrating as it is for us, sometimes the "Kennedy family" itself appears to have blocked further investigation. However, that probably is not entirely accurate either. Bobby had his own plans to re-open the investigation. He believed that he needed the power of the office of the POTUS to pull it off effectively. He was stopped. End of story. Case closed.

Hello,

I'm looking for a copy of the Honolulu Conference Briefing Book for the one held November 20th, 1963. Does anyone have this? If so please contact me. Thanks.

Joe Backes

Joe,

It is found in the JFK National Security Files 1961-1963 Country Files: Vietnam, Honolulu Meeting, Briefing Book, 11/20/63, Box 204 [Kennedy Library]

I hope you're right, Ray. (Except I prefer it in our lifetimes). But, you know, looking at the pictures of the reinterment, I still doubt it. It would have been very easy to do it then, but they didn't.

Definitely possible...perhaps even likely. This holds true especially when one considers that the head shot occurred farther west on Elm than what was originally reported. The "X" marked on the street today is not the correct location.

Thank you, Greg. May I impose upon you with a couple of additional inquiries? Do I understand correctly that only the immediate family (Jackie and RFK,...) was allowed to view the President's body after it was reposed in state? What do you think the likelihood of a future exhumation is? As I understand, RFK was the primary watchdog while alive. For example, he was responsible for the brain's whereabouts and final reunion with the body, according to JFK's secretary

edit: secretary's statements are unconfirmed as best I can determine.

I believe that is the "official" story. Yes, no one else supposedly viewed the body besides some of the immediate family and the mortician. In 1967 the body was reinterred--in the middle of the night! For all intents and purposes, it was a secret military operation carried out by the Army Corp of Engineers. If memory serves a reporter was even arrested for being too nosey about it and trying to find out what was going on. So, to answer your question, IMO, there will never be an exhumation for the purposes of a second autopsy to discover the truth. There should be...but it won't happen.

edit: Of course Bobby, Teddy, a priest, et al were there for the reinterrment.

I do not favor a Knoll shooter for several reasons beyond what I stated regarding lateral motion. Look at the elevation of the Knoll above the street. The shooter would be shooting DOWNWARD. The bullet's trajectory from that location seems inconsistent with the motion of JFK's head wound as seen in the extant Zapruder film. JFK does not appear to be struck from a bullet coming DOWN on his head from the right front. Struck from the front? Yes--but, not with a downward trajectory. I don't know...but it doesn't seem likely to me. I don't wish to speculate beyond that and offer a "theory" as to what did take place, though.

What do you make of the possibility of a sewer drain sniper?

Definitely possible...perhaps even likely. This holds true especially when one considers that the head shot occurred farther west on Elm than what was originally reported. The "X" marked on the street today is not the correct location.

I had dinner with Noel in Dallas quite a number of years ago. During the meal we spoke about many things, such as, our mutual friend and source, Hemming. We also spoke about Noel's having met and spent considerable time with Robert McNamara, and we spoke at length about LBJ, among other things. Both of us had a similar experience while separately talking to Texans about the assassination. We had both noted that Texans were far and away the most likely to believe that LBJ was actually BEHIND the assassination. Several seasoned Texas researchers with whom I am acquainted as well as two very close researcher friends from Texas all told me that at the time of the assassination they were CONVINCED that LBJ had murdered Kennedy to further his own career. One person who believed this back in 1963-64 was Jack White. For many Texans it was a forgone conclusion that "LBJ did it..." -- Today Jack is not of that same mindset. The more educated one becomes about the subject the less likely such a scenario becomes.

....deleted

And so your point is?

deleted

Robert Morrow said:

"How do you imagine how Vice President Johnson, a powerless eunuch, felt in October and November of 1963 Robert Kennedy was feeding both LIFE magazine and the Senate Rules Committee damaging material on LBJ? RFK was out to destroy Lyndon Johnson both politically and personally."

Robert,

Please cite your source and/or provide PROOF that RFK was "feeding both LIFE magazine and the Senate Rules Committee damaging material on LBJ." -- Robert? Do it now. Cite your source or offer proof that this is true.

Noel Twyman and I are friends. He lives in North San Diego County... the Fairbanks Ranch area of Rancho Santa Fe. Do not misinterpret his meaning, Robert. Noel does not believe that LBJ was the "mastermind" of anything.

I do not favor a Knoll shooter for several reasons

In that case, GREGORY

my dear friend,

i think your views will find a more receptive audience

on DR. MCadam's forum

Even though I don't favor a Knoll shooter, I do not rule it out entirely...it is possible. I simply don't know. I also know that my opinion is not very popular amongst "conspiracy theorists" -- but, I am not a conspiracy theorist. Therefore, I have no marriage to any pet theories nor popular notions. I believe without question that there was a conspiracy, that there were multiple gunmen, that Oswald most likely did not even fire a weapon that day, that there was indeed a triangulated crossfire. These are not theories if I don't fill in the unknowable details. They are examples of inference to the best explanation. The physical evidence exonerates Oswald (nitrate tests). The physical evidence indicates multiple shooters. The official record reveals obstruction of justice after the fact.

There was a conspiracy. I do not need to discover exactly what happened that day in order to rule out what could not possibly have happened that day. The official account could not have happened as it is grossly inadequate to the evidence.

My view is that Greer was NOT compromised or bought off. That is too messy--too much risk. Too much "payola" required. And..what if he had refused to participate? Would you offer him more money? Or would you kill him because he knew of the plot? Way too messy.

I submit that if we accept this argument then there was no plot at all.

It would have been too risky and required too much payola.

Clearly there was a plot. There were aberrant orders given and there were aberrant orders followed. This does not necessarily mean that everyone who followed orders was in on the plot. They may not have been in a position to override the orders though. As an example, if it is true that the DPD motor escorts were ordered to ride behind the limo instead of in a tighter protective formation and the officers followed that order, it does not necessarily mean that they were all involved in the plot. When SS Agent Rybka was ordered off the limo at Love Field, he protested, but eventually acquiesced and "followed orders". Does this mean that Rybka was in on the plot? Does it mean that the remainder of the detail was in on it? Not necessarily. It seems like the agent in charge who issued the orders would have some explaining to do though.

I do not think that Greer was part of the plot.

Greg, earlier on this thread you wrote

So, if there was a knoll shooter whose bullet hit its mark, then it follows that the limousine came to a halt in order to allow the kill shot to be absolutely certain to succeed.

l am trying to follow your argument to its logical conclusion.

you seem to be saying that there would be no point in having knoll shooters

unless they could guarantee that the driver would slow down or stop the limo.

Since you now say that the driver was not involved

it should follow from your premise

that there was no knoll shooter.

Am I following your argument.

I am not a very good conspiracy theorist, Ray. I do not attempt to offer supposition because I have no way of knowing for certain. However, I will offer what I believe to be the "most un-likely" scenario to have happened. I believe it is very unlikely that there was a sniper waiting patiently for a laterally moving target no matter where such a sniper was stationed. The factor that would change that is if the limo STOPPED its motion completely. So, this becomes confusing in Dealey Plaza given what we know happened including the limo stop (or, as you prefer, drastic slow down). Although in my view a rolling stop would not have been preferred to a complete stop. Even assuming it was a complete stop, it is unlikely that a knoll shooter would have wanted to risk it from there. However, if we accept the implications of a Secret Service agent being involved in Presidential Protective Detail duty at the age of 54; that Greer was most likely less than competent in both reaction time and even possibly judgment of the crisis, then it is not as difficult to accept that he may have, in fact, been the perfect, unwitting choice.

I do not favor a Knoll shooter for several reasons beyond what I stated regarding lateral motion. Look at the elevation of the Knoll above the street. The shooter would be shooting DOWNWARD. The bullet's trajectory from that location seems inconsistent with the motion of JFK's head wound as seen in the extant Zapruder film. JFK does not appear to be struck from a bullet coming DOWN on his head from the right front. Struck from the front? Yes--but, not with a downward trajectory. I don't know...but it doesn't seem likely to me. I don't wish to speculate beyond that and offer a "theory" as to what did take place, though.

I do not think that Greer was part of the plot. I spoke at length with Nick Principe who was the lead Presidential motorcycle escort in Washington DC. He was with the DC Park Police, who supplemented the Secret Service and his unit provided motor escort services. He was there from the days of Harry Truman for whom my father worked. When Nick retired, the DC Park Police retired his police motorcycle's license plate and gave it to him. The license plate read: US GOV 1 -- That was his government issued license plate. Quite unique. Quite impressive. You don't get that by being less than exemplary.

Both Nick and my dad knew Greer very well. Both men said that Greer appeared to be overwhelmed by the situation in Dallas...as opposed to complicit in it.

Although Barb Junkarinnen has disputed Nick's account, I disagree with her. His recollection of Greer was clear, as was my dad's. I had never spoken to my dad about Greer until after I had spoken to Nick. Up until then I always pretty much assumed that Greer must have been involved given his actions--or lack thereof. However, Nick said that Greer's impression was that there were multiple shooters (at the time in Dallas) and he could not tell from which direction the shots originated. Nick said that Greer told him that he was afraid that he was driving INTO an ambush, not away from one, which is why Greer brought the limo to a stop.

My father was less sympathetic toward Greer. When I asked him about this, my dad said [paraphrased]: "Greer was the kind of guy who was good at brining you coffee." In other words, Greer was NOT equipped to handle this duty. JFK's much younger scheduled driver, whose name escapes me at the moment, was taken off the Dallas trip and the task fell to Greer. My father said that Greer no longer had the "edge" by this time in his career (I believe Greer was 54 in Dallas).

My view is that Greer was NOT compromised or bought off. That is too messy--too much risk. Too much "payola" required. And..what if he had refused to participate? Would you offer him more money? Or would you kill him because he knew of the plot? Way too messy. No, Greer was not complicit. Greer was ill equipped to handle this duty. He was maneuvered into this position intentionally. If not for the regular driver "becoming ill" (as we are expected to believe), Greer wouldn't have even been there at all.

As a sniper, eight or ten miles an hour is quite slow when looking at a target coming almost directly toward your position--or even a target moving almost directly away from your position. However, if in front of you moving left to right or right to left--it is quite a different affair--particularly if the target is relatively close as that proximity is harder to compensate for lateral motion. Possible? Yes. Preferable? NOPE. Risky? Absolutely. Would the conspirators rid the kill zone of as many obstacles to success as possible? Without question. To wit: The Secret Service had an advance team...and so did the conspirators.

Since the "kill" had not been accomplished farther up Elm...and now needed to be completed circa Z-313 by Knoll shooters, it was mandatory to STOP the target or risk failure.

...

by the time it reached the kill zone it would have acquired substantial lateral motion relative to the shooters position on the knoll.

OK Greg, I'll buy your argument re sun direction,

noting that knoll shooters would be shaded by the bushes.

For those who believe the z film is authentic,

there can be no doubt that the fatal shot came from the knoll

since the bullet clearly drove JFK backwards.

So the lateral motion was not enough to deter the assassins.

The only safe way to insure that the lateral motion wouldn't deter the Grassy Knoll sniper(s) would be to eliminate it. That is the ONLY way. So, if there was a knoll shooter whose bullet hit its mark, then it follows that the limousine came to a halt in order to allow the kill shot to be absolutely certain to succeed.

Correct me if I am wrong

but wouldn't a TSBD shooter

assuming there was one

have the sun in his eyes.

I don't think so, Ray. First, in my opinion, the time of day plays an important role here because the sun is not down toward the horizon at 12:30. Secondly, the shooter from the rear would be aiming downward due to the fact that Elm Street declines fairly sharply from Houston Street to the kill zone. Even if a shooter had been at street level he would have been aiming downward not up. If he was in an upper floor of the building the "downward trajectory" would be even more pronounced. So, a TSBD shooter would be facing the direction of the sun, but I don't think it would have been in his eyes at all.

P.S. This does not mean that I am discounting the possibility of a Knoll shooter nor am I necessarily embracing the notion of a TSBD shooter one way or another.

Greetings, Malcolm and welcome.

I am no military genius to be sure

but I have heard of successful assassination attempts

where the shots came from only one direction.

I am not convinced that there was a crossfire in Dealey Plaza.

Shooters on the knoll had the distinct advantage of a target

that kept coming closer and growing larger

plus they had the sun BEHIND them.

Ray,

That is incorrect. The sun would not be behind shooters on the knoll. It would be about 45 degrees to their right if they were facing perpendicular to the street. The farther down Elm the shooters pivoted in order to maintain their target the more the sun would be in their eyes. If one is facing the triple underpass from ALTGENS position, they are mostly facing WEST. The grassy knoll is located to the NORTH (if not North by NW) of where the limousine is at Z-313. The shooting ocurred at about 12:30, when the sun is high in the sky. The disadvantage with which shooters from the knoll would have had to contend has more to do with lateral motion. While you are correct that when the limo was up near the corner of Elm and Houston the target would have been coming closer and getting larger, still, by the time it reached the kill zone it would have acquired substantial lateral motion relative to the shooter's position on the knoll.

Secret Service Agents Also Partied Before the Kennedy Assassination:

http://www.wfaa.com/news/national/Secret-Service-also-Partied-before-Kennedy-Assassination-148338385.html