Greg Burnham
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Posts posted by Greg Burnham
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Mike...Monk is a policeman. He knows firearms.
Jack
Well, that's not exactly correct, Jack--but you didn't know. Since 2006, I now have a career in Real Estate with my wife.
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monk
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I think at the moment we're really looking at the mechanics of ballistics. We'll get to wound ballistics as well.
Well, it seems to me that wound ballistics are the direct result of the mechanics. One can tell a lot about the mechanics from the effects that were left behind.
But, if that was too far off--sorry.
Let's see: Mike said, (in Bill Kelly's unrelated thread) that he believes it was possible, if not probable, that one could "easily" have fired accurate head shots from the TSBD. He mentioned the "target" was traveling away from the sniper's position (presumptive), and only minimal lateral motion was present. He said that he was surprised that it took 3 shots to finally get a head shot.
Question:
Since it did take three shots, according to Mr Williams theory, and since the FBI determined that the minimum amount of time between shots that was required to cycle the Carcano (chamber a fresh round) was 2.3 seconds WITHOUT ALLOWING FOR ANY TIME TO AIM -- how easy (and quick) is it to re-acquire the target after having already fired a shot, and after having had to chamber a round?
Thanks
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OK. There must be some kind of ad blocker ad on available.
G'day John,
Yeah, it's called "turn off your speakers" I think. Just kidding, but it's a funny ad, in a way--and man is it LOUD!
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Hi Mike,
I read your earlier post and noted that you said you believe that all of the shots were fired from the 6th floor of the TSBD. Have you read Doug Horne's book? He was the Assassination Records Review Board's "Chief Analyst for Military Records". You might find it an interesting read, if you haven't already read it. You might want to check out Jim Fetzer's books, Assassination Science and Murder in Dealey Plaza--especially the work of David Mantik, MD, PhD as well as others, which is contained therein.
Do you believe that all of the earliest statements by the doctors at Parkland Hospital who first attended JFK's wounds after the shooting, were mistaken? Do you believe that these trauma room doctors, with extensive experience dealing with gunshot wounds, mistakenly identified the throat wound as a wound of entrance? If so, (which would necessarily be your position in order for you to have concluded that all shots were fired from BEHIND JFK) upon what do you base your opinion? Or did you reach your conclusion irrespective of the opinion of the Parkland doctors?
Thanks
Mr. Dolva,I would have to reexamine the window opening to really give a competent answer. I will have to look for the info on size and opening. My initial thought is that this would not hamper the scope use, however I think this is something we can easily resolve.
In your last post you asked the downward angle of "the shot" I assume we are talking about the 313 shot?
Best Sir,
Mike
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I saw a fascinating news program about 6 months ago that claimed that scientists had discovered the cause of the decline in honey bee population to a certainty. According to the study, the cause is a virus. They originally had been dealing with the idea that cell phone "cells" (or something related thereto) were interfering with the navigation systems of the bees! Eventually, they found that all of the bees that were coming from declining populations--and only those bees--all had this virus. I wonder how they re dealing with it?
Much of what Jack says here makes sense. Aeroplane emissions are a major contributor to the composition of the atmosphere. This is indisputable. Some might be astounded by the volumes.Cleaner fuels and greener engines are being adopted.
There is a change in the air.
(I just wouldn't start off with chemtrail ''programs'', tho). Sure economics is involved at the expense of the environment. The intransigence of some major countries and companies are not acting in the interests of our world. Thay can, but they choose not to.
edit:typo
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No way!!! Sarah Palin's IQ can't possibly be 59?? I want confirmation! Hi Doug, good to see you again.
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monk
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Did you read, "BROTHERS" by David Talbot? Good stuff...
What did Bobby Kennedy know about the make up of the .Warren Commission in the first half of 1964? After all he was US Attorney General, and from all appearances, had a track record of investigating the mob, especially its activities related to the Teamsters Union and its leader, Jimmy Hoffa.If this was true, and the 1974 posthumously published diaries of Drew Pearson states that Tom Clark knew it in 1946, and it was published by Pearson's bitter rival, in 1968, then we can assume that Bobby knew it in 1964.:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4062/444670...a4c039b9c_o.jpg
Bobby also had to know about these relationshis, their impact on the Democratic parrty, and on the repuration of his brother's US Ambassafor, Adlai Stevenon,L
http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=sid...1&scoring=aA FRIEND OF A FRIEND OF A FRIEND
Pay-Per-View - Chicago Tribune - ProQuest Archiver - Aug 20, 1952
... in honor of J. N. Arvey, Democratic boss of Illinois and Atty. and Mrs. Sidney Korshak. The hosts were Harry Karl, a chain shoe merchant, and his wife,
I've found information supporting the idea that RFK had to know that the Warren Commission's investigation was compromised; sabotaged by the alliance of organized labor and organized crime that RFK had devoted himself, at least publicly, to exposing and bringing to justice.
http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=mr....n&scoring=aBares Lavish Parties for Union Bosses Here
Pay-Per-View - Chicago Tribune - ProQuest Archiver - Nov 24, 1953
James R. Hoffa, Frank Darling, Bert Brennan, Dave Previant, Phil Goodman, ... Mr . and Mrs. Paul Dorfman, Mr. and Mrs. Allen Dorfman, Joseph Jacobs, ...
AFL Union Chiefs Son Balks at $101,000 Payoff Quiz
Pay-Per-View - Chicago Tribune - ProQuest Archiver - Nov 24, 1953
M. Frank Darling is the head of local 1031 of the AFL Elec- trical Workers ... However, Mrs. Rose Dorfman, also sought on a , was ill and would not appear. ...
There are records of a 1953, congressional committee hearing on Paul and Allen Dorfman's "instant" 1949 entrancce into the life and health insurance business. Testimony is taken from Michael Frank Darling, the president and business manager of Chicago Local 1031, a 37,000 member affiliate of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers. Under questioning, Darling admits that he buys, from funds paid to Local 1031 by employers per union contracts negotiated by Darling, the group health and life insurance policies of more than half of Local 1031's members.
Darling discloses that he switched all of his insurance purchases, in May, 1949, on the advice of attorney Joseph Jacobs, to the Dorfman's newly formed insurance brokerage. M. Frank Darling admiys that he made this decision without knowing if the Dorfman's, who he admitted to knowing previously, were even yet licensed to sell insurance. Reviews of his testimony and other information in that 1953 hearing, surface again in hearings held in 1958 and in 1960.
In the later hearings, mention is made of Darling's 1953 testimony and the fact that he was, still president of Local 1031. Also included is infrimation that the $700 initial binder, paid by Darling to a representaitve of the Dorfmans, a Dr. Perlman, was used by Allen Dorfman to pay the initial rent for his insurance office, and for the purchase of office equipment. Kennedy participated in that session of a 1960 hearing.
Counsel for Michael Frank Darling in the 1953 hearing, declaring that he woulld never attempt to answer questions directed at his client, was Albert E, Jenner. Counsel for Paul and Allen Dorfman was Stanford Clinton.
According to information from the New Jersey Division of Gaming in the matter of an application for a gambling license by Playbpy and the Pritzkers, this was disclosed.:
http://njlegallib.rutgers.edu/legallib/njar/v10/p0465.pdfIn The Matter of The Application for Playboy-Elsinore Associates
For a Casino License
Decided: April 7, 1982
.....Page 4
B. Areas of Concern Identified By The Division
In that portion of its opening statement dealing with the Elsinor entities, the Division voiced concern over a series of financial transactions between the Teamsters Central States, Southeast, and Southwest Areas Pension Fund ("Pension Fund") and the Pritzkers, Hyatt and Elsinore, respectively. The Division's investigative report with respect to the Elsinore entities, more specifically identified eight such financial relationships extending from the 1950's through the mid-1970's. During the course of the Elsinore potion of this hearing, substantial testimony and documents were produced concerning the involvement of the Pritzker family and its business entities with the Pension Fund.
At the close of the evidentiaru phase of this hearing, the Division in its summation indicated that it would have no objection to the licensure of Eslinore if the following two conditions were imposed by the Commission:
....number one, there is no more dealing in any way, shape or form with any, Divisiopn or subdivision of the Teamsters fund.
Secondly, that the Pritzker family make efforts to insulate or extricate themselves from existing ties that they may have with Teamsters fund or funds in any way, shape, or form.....
Page 5
In summarizing the Elsinor portion of this hearing, the Division focused of ceratain aspects of the above financial transactions which it founf particularly troublesome. These areas of concern will now be addressed below.
1. The 1959 Loan
On July, 11, 1958, Jay Pritzker, on behalf of his family, entered into a joint venture agreement with several other individuals for the purchase and operation of what would later become the Hyatt House in Burlingame, California. The initial financing for the project had been obtained throught a mortgage banker but soon proved inadequate due to a series of constriction overruns. After an unsuccessful attempt to secure additional financing from the mortgage banker, Jay Pritzker approached Stanford Clinton, then counsel to the PENSION FUND (4) and an individual who had been closely associated with the Pritzker family for some 30 years, to inquires whether the PENSION FUND would be interested in providing additional financing for the venture.
Owing to the nature of the reservations expressed by the Division in its summation, it is necessary to digress at this point in order to amplify the Clinton-Pritzker relationship. After graduating from law school, Clinton accepted a position in June 1931 as an associate with the law firm of Prizker and Pritzker. Thereupon he embarked upon a legal career that spanned nearly four decades. When the Pritzker abandoned the traditional practice of law in 1936. they gave Clinton all of their active fies and permitted him to continue to use the Pritzker offices and support services.
Thereafter, Clinton maintained his own clientele, but he continued to do legal work for the Pritzker family and occasionally was invited to invest in Pritzker business ventures.
One such opportunity Clinton took advantage of was the Burlingame hotel project referred to above. Although there is some ambiguity in the record as to the exact percentages involved, it appears that Clinton had either a five percetn or a ten percent equity participation in the project.(6)
(4)Clinton was appointed counsel to the PENSION FUND during 1959 and continued in thsi capacity until his retirement in 1967.
(5)Eventually, Clintons's representation of certain individuals came to viewed by the Pritzkers as incompatible with their commercial interests and the above relationship was severed.
Page 6
Nevetheless, both Abraham Nicholas Pritzker and Clinton testified during these proceedings that the latter made a capital contribution to the venture out of his personal funds.
Since Clinton was counsel to the PENSION FUND at the time that he was approacjed by Jay Pritzker regarding the possibility of seeking additional funding for the Burlingame venture from such FUND, Clinton faced a twofold conflict of interest. His thirty-year association with the Pritzker family and his equity interest in the project necessitated that he recuse himself duing the loan application process. Before withdrawing as counsel on this loan, Clinton went to the Executive Committee of the Board of Trustees of the PENSION FUND and fully disclosed his involvement with the project. Upon the recusal of Clinton, Frank J. McGarr, presently Chief Judge of the United States District Court for the Northern District of Illinois, was retained by the PENSION FUND to represent its interests in negotiating and ultimately closing the Burlingame mortgage loan transaction. On August 31, 1959, the oredecessor of the present Hyatt Corporation obtained a $2,000,0000 first mortgage loan from the Pension Fund at an annual interest rate of six percent, with repayment due in 1979.
In its summation, the Division conceded that it "had been unable to uncover any evidence which would demonstrate any impropriety on the part of either Mr. Clinton, the Pritzkers, the Hyatt, (or) the PENSION FUND in this matter". Notwithstanding this assertion, the Division expressed concern over how Stanford Clinton initially acquired his interest in the Burlingame project and how his interest was later reduced from a ten percent to five percent holding.....
....2. The 1963 Loan
On March 15,1960, another Hyatt financing proposal was sent to the PENSION FUND and was directed to the attention of it Executive
Page 7
Secretary, Francis J. Murtha. In this proposal, Hyatt offered to sell to the FUND subordinated debentures in the principal amount of $4,000,000 bearing interest at the rate of 6 1/4 percent per annum and maturing on March 31, 1979. This financing was to be used by Hyatt for the expansion of its hotel chaing and for the acquisition, development, and construction of real estate projects.
Stanford Clinton again withdrew as counsel for the PENSION FUND and the firm of Thompson, Raymond, Mayer, Jenner and Bloomstein was retained in order to render legal advice to the Trustees of the Fund and to execute the appropriate legal documents. ....
....After difficult negotiations, and Trustees of the PENSION FUND approved a revised proposal....The loan was executed on June 24, 1960.
The Division in its summation noted some compliamentary language used by James R. Hoffa in referring to the Pritzker family at a Board of Trustees meeting of the PENSION FUND. This reference was to the fiscal responsibility of the Pritzkers....
...3. 1966-1970 Loans
Consider that the NJ Division of Gaming excluded the word "Teamster" in all descriptions of the PENSION FUND, after the first oage of its report, which it kept hidden from the public for six uears after it was published in 1982. Consider that Pritzker attorney and 30 year friend, Stanford Clinton, was the Teamsters Pension Fund counsel, and he got the law firm of Albert Jenner and Henry Crown's son, John, to stand in for him in negotiating a $4 million loan to the Pritzkers in 1960. The Pritzkers could see that the stench of Stanford Clinton's clients had caused him to stink, too, and the distanced themselves from him.
Tom Clark, Earl Warren, and Bobby Kennedy, either welcomed the nearly as tainted, Albert Jenner Jr. into one of the most sensitive investigative spots in the Warren Commission, or suffered silently in reaction tp Jenner's role in determining an Oswald or a Ruby conspiracy....or not.
Albert Jenner did not represent Allen Dorfman until after the WC Report, but we now know Jenner represented the Union official who put the first Union insurance fund dollar in Dorfman's hand, and that Bobby Kennedy had to have known it. It is possible that Bobby and Teddy went to their graves faking their support for the finidings of the WC because they were trying to hide Kennedy family involvement in recruiting mob leaders in plots to assassinate Castro, but keeping that secret does not seem like enough of a benefit to stand by while Albert Jenner attempted to thwart the WC investigation, as if it was the invesitigation to determine where the Union money went after it was paid to Dorfman Insurance front companies, or why the business went to Dorfman in the first place.
Watching Jenner's lawfirm, in 1960, acting as fill-n counsel for Jimmy Hoffa's Mafia piggy bank, with Henry Crown;s son on board, is rich.
Bobby could not have known in 1964, that Earl Warren would be choosing Paul Ziffren;s son as his Supreme Court law clerk for the 1966 term, and there
is a chance that Bobby was not aware that Tom Clark picked Henry Crown's son to clerk for him in 1956, or even that the Crown kids next stop was Jenner's law frim, but Bobby had to know that Earl Warren and family were too close to Henry Crown partner, Conrad Hiltom.
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp...dc62da33e2ff469298 F.2d 772
Albert E. Jenner, Jr., Richard Russell Wolfe, John J. Crown, Chicago, Ill. (Thompson, Raymond, Mayer, Jenner & Bloomstein, Jarrett Ross Clark, ...
ftp.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F2/298/298.F2d.772.13295-6.html
If Moe told them[/b] to make a loan," said one observer of the moment, "they made the loan." In 1960, Teamster money began pouring in to finance the next round of casino growth, ...Bobby Kennedy was much smarter than I am, he was an expert on the subject of Jimmy Hoffa and the mob, and he knew almost everything I've presented in thsi post, yet he permitted the Chicago Syndicate to place its attorney on the WC, to determine that neither Oswald nor Ruby had discernible mob ties, and then remained publicly supportive of the WC's "findings", and seems to have persuaded his brother Teddy and his sister-in-law, Jackie to do likewise.
Albert Jenner smelled almost as bad, in 1963, as Stanford Clinton did. The Pritzkers pushed Clinton away, while Earl Warren, Tom Clark, and Dean Acheson were
sponsoring Jenner to spearhead the most sensitve investigation in recent times, and the US Attorney General and dedicated mob opponent, all but held the
door for thsi corrupt, bi-partisan, mob influenced whitewash. Jenner's role in representing the man who controlled the company awarded the TFX contract, investigation of which had just been shut down in December of 1963, does not even need to be emphasized, for the WC Report to look like a mob tainted mess.
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Why was the Kennedy reaction, to the compromised WC, considering what Bobby had to know, no reaction?
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Thanks, Steve--interesting stuff.
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monk
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Doug...what is your source for an LHO IQ? I have never seen that.
Jack
And even if true, his INTELLIGENCE and BRIGHTNESS were never challenged in this thread!
I never disputed the form of intelligence that Judyth is claiming he possessed and is now defending! I expressed doubt as to his WISDOM -- his ability to respond as someone who had LIFE EXPERIENCE--which is the other type of "intellect" that cannot be explained away so easily.
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monk
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I'm waiting for sunset on a beautiful beach in Cabo San Lucas, thanks to the money I won by clicking the button.
Jesse Ventura is nowhere to be seen, but another Tequila and I won't care.
Thanks Education Forum for making it all possible!
Too funny, Mike-- ROFLMAO
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Jack,
When you and Dixie and Barb cannot even recollect accurately what happened on Rich's forum during the past ten years...
I believe it was on this forum that Judyth came to when she left Rich's forum. She claimed that Rich had called her a "slut." I never knew Rich to call any woman something like that. But, wait a minute, yes, he liked to use the word "skank" which he reserved for Jada, the exotic dancer.
Kathy C
I object to that! Totally off topic. I know it doesn't matter "that I object" but I do. It will derail this thread if pursued. A pity.
You kill me, Mink. Like your new name? I couldn't resist. (At least you're not a skank.)
Kathy C
You kill me, too -- but please don't "kill" the thread. (I'm asking nicely).
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Jack,
When you and Dixie and Barb cannot even recollect accurately what happened on Rich's forum during the past ten years...
I believe it was on this forum that Judyth came to when she left Rich's forum. She claimed that Rich had called her a "slut." I never knew Rich to call any woman something like that. But, wait a minute, yes, he liked to use the word "skank" which he reserved for Jada, the exotic dancer.
Kathy C
I object to that! Totally off topic. I know it doesn't matter "that I object" but I do. It will derail this thread if pursued. A pity.
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(cont.)
JUDYTH:5) His mother stated he taught himself to read before he started school.
That's a different kind of "bright" and you know it. I'm talking about LIFE EXPERIENCE brightness, which is not the same as maturity, nor is it the same as "gifted" which he may have been. Life experience brightness can be gleaned in one way only, by definition.
6) You can't judge his intelligence by letters he was asked to write. They were not meant to reflect a brilliance that might have made him look suspicious to the communist party, etc.Strawman. I was not judging his intelligence. I have no problem accepting his brightness. I do have a problem accepting that he was that bright, but failed to tell anyone who could have made a difference that Kennedy was to be killed if he REALLY knew it AND TOLD YOU. I have a problem believing that someone that damn smart EVEN WENT TO WORK that day knowing what you claim he knew! I would understand if he knew it--and stayed HOME! I might not like that--he should have tried to stop it--but I would BELIEVE human weakness got the best of him and he just called in sick.
So much 'bad' has been written about Lee that it has pretty well sifted down to everybody who did not know him.Don't worry, I don't believe everything I read.
I presented a paper to the Popular Culture Association some years back -- after which my university forbade me to go to any more conventions or publish any more papers. I was 'punished' for writing it. But I intend to present a distillation of it to those forums which would allow it. Along with Lee's facility for Russian, his selection of books, when properly explained, bespeaks of an inquiring and intelligent mind.No comment.
Why is this important to know? Because Oswald knew more than you think about what was going on. The problem was, he didn't find out in time to be able to get out of it. It is healthy to debate these things without rancour. I also have to say that there were a lot of things we did not know. No doubt of that. Hindsight is so nice!JVB
Agreed. No rancour.
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monk
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JUDYTH RESPONDS TO GREG BURNHAM: ABOUT LEE'S WISDOM AND EXPERIENCE FOR HIS AGE
It is obvious that Lee had his flaws and faults. I do not dwell on them as much as others because I have tried to present the other side of the coin.
I don't dwell on them at all.
1) Lee did not use much Russian in the USSR...Yet he was fluent....And Marina was impressed with his speaking abilities...But when he arrived, he actually pulled it off that he knew very little, and they believed him....This is intelligent behaviour for a young man still 19 when entering Russia.
If accurately reported, agreed.
2) Listen to Lee's live radio interviews where he mentions the economic systems of Latin American countries, and elsewhere, and he is one against three in that 'debate' -- He is 23 at the time and is not enrolled in college...His common environment is theoretically in Reily's coffee plant, oiling machines...But please listen to him....I have listened to him. He doesn't sound spontaneous to me in those debates and/or in interviews. He sounds "programmed" to me. I don't mean "brain washed" programming -- I mean "rehearsed" and DIRECTED on how to respond.
His ability cannot have been due to both "spontaneous brightness" (hey give him a medal if it's true) and an "intel op asset" simultaneously. It was one or the other. That is not to say that he was not chosen for his "brightness" -- he might have been so chosen, but the "performances" that you reference are not necessarily indicative of an independent expression of intelligence beyond his years, IMO.
3) Ignore the dyslexia and look at his word choices -- including, "I emphatically deny these charges!" -- a word choice under pressure, exhaustion and having been beaten -- A mature choice of words for one so young....Or a "proclamation of innocence" knowingly made from being rehearsed. Again, I believe that Oswald was well briefed in such matters. It is important for the accused to DENY the charges. Anyone who believes that once charged with a crime it is preferable to remain silent, just because you have the right to remain silent, is wrong. One needs to first DENY THE CHARGES -- and then shut up.
4) Propaganda goes far to hide the truth, but glimmers of his intelligence still survive -- His favourite opera was "Pikova Dama"... Wait a minute -- what is y-o-u-r favourite opera, Greg? Jim? Pamela?Henry Purcell's, "Dido and Aeneas" -- because I hate foreign languages. (haha)
His favorite music? Classical music.I love Mozart, so what?
His favorite game? When others of his age and income level are playing poker, his favorite game is chess.Me too. Except my friends were playing checkers, parcisi (sp?), and chinese checkers -- I was 7.
His favorite reading? Karl Marx, John Locke, Russian classics, 1984, science fictionSorry, my parents avoided giving me the socialist stuff, but I loved Orwell, Huxley, and Verne. (Hemmingway was a favorite, too)
His favourite poet? Pushkin. Ever read Pushkin?No, I haven't. My wife is of Russian dissent and told me I'm not missing anything though. Does that make her less intelligent? Nope.
Have you read Oswald's "Atheian System"? Atheian means divested of any connections to religions...If rewritten free of dyslexian misspellings, it's a good bit of writing about an ideal political system rejecting both communism and capitalism... Not bad for a 23 year old.I haven't read it. However, is it publically available? Sorry, if I'm behind on this--but, I've never heard of it. However, at 23 I would find ANYTHING attributed to him suspect. IMO, by then, there was very little (if anything) in his life that was not CONTROLLED. It's one of the curiosities that you represent. If you are the "real deal" ---never mind.
(cont.)
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Sorry Monk, (Mink) that was not at all intentional I am an excellent speller, but a poor typist.
Dixie
No worries, Dixie.
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When Oswald's death was announced, it was clear that the alleged assassin would take certain secrets
to the grave. At that time most people probably didn't realize just how many enduring secrets that would be.
.......Let me clarify my meaning: I think he went to the grave with a lot of information, but--he may not have been aware of the significance of the majority of it himself.
For sure that must be true. One thing's for certain though; at some point he realized he was being framed for murder.
And however limited his level of knowledge and understanding might have been, those secrets that died with him
would have had the potential to change history as we know it.
Agreed--
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I think it is safe to say that it was the military.
Who had the power to make 4 hours disaooear? There must be some kind of ''chain of evidence''. There just seems to be not only (big) bits of the tapes but also bits of the story here and there missing?edit add: Is there a list of those who did have the real power to make these 4 hours disappear?
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"Mink" ???
LOLA friendly suggestion to all: Dial it down a bit -- at this rate, we'll soon be assassinating each other!
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monk
Fetzer..read my first post again! I said exactly what transpired at Richs forum as related to JUdyth and Mink agreed with me on that. I did not make the claims you have just now accused me of. Just knock off your false accusations! Barb was not even on Rich's forum at that time and stated she wasn't and didn't know what had transpired. She says she didn't even get involved about Judyth until around 2004. I had been involved long before that.Dixie
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Hello all,
Yes, the "You Won!" audio announcement is absurd, obviously untrue, and annoying. I sent John Simkin an email containing the image of a screen shot (similar to that posted by Bernice) only a few days after I joined the forum. The seriousness of this type of threat is not dependent upon "clicking" any of the advertising links. If only it were that simple.
I recommend running your anti-viral / anti-spyware / anti-EVERYTHING programs regularly and keep them up to date. I run mine EVERY SINGLE NIGHT on the highest security setting available.
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monk
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Monk...your memories may be better than mine, especially about certain things. But my memory is very
clear about abusive messages (lots of emails, as well as forum postings) from JVB and Dankbaar. Vernon
was never abusive that I remember. I think Shack also sent lots of emails, but not abusive. It was a
campaign like BELIEVE US, OR SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES. And I am sure that you remember the
TWO HACKINGS which DOWNED THE FORUM. Rich told me in emails that HE TRACED THE HACKINGS TO
AN ISP IN AMSTERDAM.
Thanks for your remembrances. It is hard to reconstruction something this old.
Jack
Jack,
I haven't seen any memory lapses so far that I couldn't have committed myself!
I sincerely and firmly DISBELIEVE that Judyth posted any abusive messages to the forum, EVER. I would remember as a function of helping Rich administer policy there. I do recall Wim posting highly vitriolic messages critical of anyone who didn't immediately accept Judyth's story, or James Files' story, or Chauncey Holt as a 3rd tramp, etc. I do recall the ISP discovery for the hacking incidents as I was the one who tracked it down and supplied it to Rich for confirmation.GO_SECURE
monk
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Cogent thoughts that go to the heart of the matter, in my opinion.
When Oswald's death was announced, it was clear that the alleged assassin would take certain secrets
to the grave. At that time most people probably didn't realize just how many enduring secrets that would be.
Thanks, Mike. I find it interesting that we sometimes forget (or neglect to remember) the obvious significance of this man's age: He was ONLY 24 years old! Imagine that...it was one of us? Hard to imagine--reliving my 24th year in his shoes or even in my own shoes for that matter! Yet, he--of such limited life experience--we presume went to the grave with extraordinary secrets about the crime of the century! Or, at least that's what we're being asked to believe... Let me clarify my meaning: I think he went to the grave with a lot of information, but--he may not have been aware of the significance of the majority of it himself. This is in no way "proof" of my assertion-- but, he was ONLY 24 -- I don't think that he or Judyth knew at that tender age (as HEMMING would say): "xxxx from shinola" -- And, who among us would have? Yet, Judyth paints an unrealistic picture of his abilities, IMO. His exceptional level of "wisdom" (as reported by her) is inconsistent with his years of life experience and with his poor judgment. --I'm just thinking out loud, now--
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monk
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Dixie,
I'm not saying Judyth joined in 2001. I don't remember the year for a certainty, but I know that I met with her BEFORE she joined--for sure. I think we met in 2001--but I don't recall exactly how long it took for her to join after we met. It's probably not a critical point, though.
I really appreciate your admission that you "bashed her (claims)" -- although, IMHO, it was more like: You guys BASHED HER personally, too... And it was not fair. It was against "flame free zone" policy, even if she was wrong. That said, it is irrelevant to the veracity of her account. "Bashing" (or the lack thereof) doesn't resolve the issue one way or the other, but it does serve to delay (and in some cases halt) the process.
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monk
Greg...now that you mentioned year 2001 that she joined, I am now thinking you are correct about that. It was just that some of us had already heard about her in 2000 and had started discussing her there, before she ever joined. I am not trying to minimize my own part in attempting to bash her claims. I did not believe her then, and still don't. Yet, I feel we got too carried away.I am also not very interested in such romance stories.....it all reminds me if those silly True Confessions Magazines, I use to read as a teenager....yet, I thought they were silly even then.
Yes, I do believe we are talking about the same woman that got banned, but not over Judyth.
Dixie
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We have disagreed on many things, Kathy, but--IMO--you make a good point, but only to a degree. For one, he wasn't stupid enough to "get killed by the secret service" for interfering with the motorcade. On the other hand, if he'd really been "in the know" about a plot in Dealey Plaza and had wanted to save Kennedy, why did he not do anything to stop it? Then again, what could he have done? Perhaps he was stupid for showing up at work that day AT ALL--if he really knew that there was a plot...and was talking to his "lover" on the phone about it?
For me, some of this story is incredulous--on its face--and some seems counterintuitive to common sense. It's saving grace is its enormity--and its possibilities--just too much to get my head sufficiently around to be comfortable making a judgment call.
I think this is the longest thread ever held in John Simkin's forum. I am skimming it, so I apologize if this question has been asked already.So imagine how I feel when I read lies that Oswald wanted to kill JFK. The very opposite was the case: he risked his life to try to save him.JVB
What did Oswald do to save Kennedy's life? How stupid was Oswald? The Presidential motorcade was going to pass where he worked -- didn't he find that suspicious? Handing out leaflets, doing 2 radio shows about communism, etc. Didn't he realize covert agencies were painting him red? He was practically the only one in the TSBD who didn't go out and watch the President go by. Didn't he hear the shots?
Now, what did he do to save Kennedy? Stand there drinking a coke? If he really wanted to be a hero, why didn't he run in front of the limo, yelling, "They're going to kill you," and cover Kennedy's head? Of course the Secret Service would have killed him. But he did nothing to stop the shooting.
Kathy C
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Good stuff, Jim.
Even the MJ-12 (MAJESTIC) documents have the appearance of both authenticity and forgery--yet the content is discredited in its entirety due to the subterfuge. Result: "Toss the baby with the bathwater" -- It's an effective propaganda technique [read:truth killer formula].
GO_SECURE
monk
Some questions are much more interesting than others, including this extremely interesting question from Bill Kelly. Here I respond and then Judyth replies separately, where her capacity for complex thought is beautifully illustrated by this case. The document was published on prisonplanet.com and I was taken in by assuming it had been released by the ARRB. Some of my reasoning in drawing the inference was that John McCone, the new director of the CIA, does not appear to have been part of the assassination or of the cover up, but who, by being kept in the dark, was impenetrable even when Bobby confronted him in a fashion that he (RFK) believed would reveal the truth about CIA involvement, as David Talbot, BROTHERS, reports, but which was useless when he was dealing with a man who, even though he was its director, was still ignorant of the CIA's own involvement. I thought this looked like something that McCone had written to Rowley, but I now agree that is seems to be an ingenious fake. I wrote to Doug and to Judyth separately, where neither had access to the others views.JIM RESPONDS TO BILL KELLY:
I added this document to Judyth's post after Lola, my webmaster, had discovered it, since it appeared to be the perfect complement to Judyth's description of Lee's activities and, in my judgment, appeared to be authentic:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/septe...swaldwascia.htm
Bill Kelly has observed that it appears to be fake, so I have consulted Doug Horne about its authenticity, especially since it was my inference that it had been released by the ARRB. Doug explained why he thinks it is a forgery:
I have never heard of this. On the surface it is explosive.
And on the surface, it has some problems:
(1) The information contained should have been classified Top Secret or above, not Confidential.
(2) There are no classification markings on each paragraph, as there should be.
(3) Where is the Record Identification Form (RIF)? It is incumbent on the persons producing this to explain exactly where it came from, and when. IF they can't explain its provenance, it should be treated as disinformation to make the research community begin chasing its own tail, like a mad dog in the summer heat.
(4) The document contains a Secret Service filing number (the CO-2 business), but that does not make sense to me because it is originated by the CIA. I smell a rat.
Doug also remarked that, since this forgery is of enormous interest, it was probably intended to be exposed as a fraud and thereby discredited, with was what I had written to Judyth. It appears to be one of those which, assuming that it is not authentic, presents true content in a fake document, very much as was done in the sting that took down Dan Rather, where he made a report about misconduct by George W. Bush during his service in the Texas Air National Guard, which Dan had verified to be a true verbatim document WITH REGARD TO ITS CONTENT by reviewing it with the secretary who had typed the original, but where it had been retyped using a typewriter that had not been manufactured AT THE DATE OF THE ORIGINAL. Because the document turned out to be fake, the inference was drawn that its content must be false, which, of course, was not the case.
If this document, which came not from Judyth but from prisonplanet, is not authentic, as Bill suggests and as Doug tends to confirm, then it appears to be another example of this very kind, where true content is presented on a fake document in the expectation that the inference will be drawn that the content is also false. But of course the inference that Kelly draws--namely, that if the above bogus document is part of the JVB story, then she is most definitely part of a very complicated psychological warfare operation [like the one that has been] conducted by one Gregory Douglas, one which we are very familiar with and one that is meant to deceive and confuse--sounds rather plausible but is not quite right.
Bill's use of "if" was appropriate, since (1) strictly speaking, it is not "part of the JVB story" as a document, since I was the one who added it as a complement to her post, but (2) where it is "part of the JVB story" in the sense that its content appears to confirm it. But that does not make this document or the post in which it appears "part of a very complicated psychological warfare operation" like the one conducted by Gregory Douglas, which I reviewed on amazon.com and also addressed in assassinationresearch.com 1/2 (2002). It is a devilishly ingenious modus operandi for our consideration:
43 of 55 people found the following review helpful:
1.0 out of 5 stars A fascinating work that appears to be a fraud, March 30, 2002
By James H. Fetzer (Duluth, MN USA) - See all my reviews
REGICIDE promises several new documents related to the death of JFK: (1) an English translation of an (undated) study by the Soviet Union; (2) a 20 April 1978 Defense Intelligence Agency study; (3) a summary of OPERATION ZIPPER dated 22 December 1963; and (4) Gregory Douglas' own critical comments and critique.
These items--(1) through (3)--allegedly came into his possession through a fortuitous encounter with Robert T. Crowley, a former Deputy Director for Operations for the CIA, an expert on Soviet intelligence. Douglas claims to have had extensive conversations with Crowley from 1993 to 1996, when his health took a bad turn. He died in 2000.
According to Douglas, Crowley had taken numerous documents with him upon his retirement from the CIA and occasionally shared them with various historians. As he came to trust Douglas, he became increasingly forthcoming, especially about the sequence of events that led to the death of John Fitzgerald Kennedy.
The Soviet assassination summary includes a three shot sequence with the driver slowing the limousine to a virtual stop, where JFK was hit in the throat from in front, John Connally was hit from above and behind, and JFK was hit in the head from behind.
According to the Soviet study, Lee Oswald was recruited by ONI and used his pseudo-defection as an occasion to convey valuable information about the U-2 program, which subsequently enabled the Soviets to shoot down a plane piloted by Gary Powers.
Oswald had an extensive history with the CIA and later the FBI, where, because of his defection and new persona as a pro-Castro communist sympthizer, he became a useful pawn as the designated patsy when the assassination went down.
Remarkably, the DIA study by Vedder B. Discoll, Colonel, US Army, arrives at many of the same conclusions. It also finds the driver having slowed the vehicle and endorses a three-shot scenario even while rejecting the notion that JFK was shot from above and behind.
The first shot (to the throat) came from the right front, the second (to Connally) from above and behind, and the third (to the right temple) from the right front again, using a .223 calibre weapon loaded with a murcury-filled bullet.
Neither the Soviet nor the DIA study have complete accounts of the shooting sequence, since JFK himself was hit at least four times, including a shot to the throat, a shot to the back, and two shots to the head, as ASSASSINATION SCIENCE and MURDER IN DEALEY PLAZA reveal. But there were multiple additional shots.
They are incomparably more accurate than THE WARREN REPORT, but their similar three-shot scenarios raises troubling questions. If eight, nine, or ten shots were in fact fired, as appears to be the case, it is extraordinarily implausible that the Soviets and the DIA would converge on three, rather than more, shot accounts.
The author, ostensibly Chief, Soviet/Warsaw Pact Division of the Directorate for Intelligence Research, is unsparing of THE WARREN REPORT as political propaganda based upon false depictions of the shots and the shooters, especially the "magic bullet" theory as an obvious fabrication, which is certainly correct.
Both studies report that Oswald was homosexual, where the DIA concludes that his intimate relationship with George de Mohrenschild, a CIA operative, infuriated his wife, and that the CIA was willing to give him up to insure that his knowledge of CIA activities be contained.
The DIA study makes it clear that US officials never suspected the Soviet Union of any complicity, including James Jesus Angleton, the Chief of Counterintelligence for the CIA, who may well have personally played a key role in initiating the sequence of events that led to the assassination.
Angleton, who tended toward paranoia, discovered that JFK was sharing highly classified information with Nikita Krushchev, which he regarded as treason. I suspect that JFK was using Krushchev to verify or falsify what he was being told by the CIA, which he knew he could not trust.
Because the CIA and the Mafia both wanted JFK out, it was easy to draw in the mob, which eventually led to the recruitment of French assassins from Marseilles. The FBI was bought on board, then the Vice President, and finally the Joint Chiefs, who were enthusiastic about removing him from office.
The plan to take out JFK was called OPERATION ZIPPER because the target allegedly had trouble keeping his up. According to Douglas, the actual assassination weapons were two 7.65 surplus Argentine Mausers and a specially constructed .223 calibre rifle, which was supplied with mercury-filled bullets.
Serious students of this case will find much here that has the ring of truth. The reconstruction of the shooting falls short on all of these accounts, since we now know much more about what happened in Dealey Plaza and how it was covered up. But those familiar with BLOODY TREASON and BODY OF SECRETS will appreciate the extent to which the big picture fits.
One of the most disturbing aspects of ZIPPER, however, is a set of five appendices (not included) alleged to be photographs of JFK in sexual situations with various of his alleged paramours. These were supposed to have been given out as "momentos", but that defies credulity. What politician would run such a risk? Surely not JFK!
The very existence of the ZIPPER document is likely to generate the most controversy, since it is difficult to imagine that the principals to the assassination would record their meetings about it. This appears to be a case in which documents that appear to be too good to be true are indeed "too good to be true".
Douglas maintains that Crowley's willingness to assist him in these ways was largely motivated by a driving desire to attain a sense of exoneration by explaining why he and others who played crucial roles were convinced that JFK had to be removed. He offers a chilling scenario.
The skeleton of this account may well be true, but the documents on which it is based appear to have been fabricated. The corrupt objective, alas!, may be to present a largely accurate account based upon phoney records, whose exposure as forgeries is meant to discredit the account itself. I wish it were not so, but that is how things appear.
JUDYTH REPLIES TO ME ABOUT THE DOCUMENT:
I AGREE WITH YOUR ASSESSMENT, JIM. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT LEAKING A DOCUMENT THAT CONTAINS TRUE INFORMATION
-- A DOCUMENT WHICH CAN LATER BE ASSESSED TO BE FALSE -- THEN LEADS THE READER TO BELIEVE THAT ALL OF THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THE DOCUMENT IS FALSE. WHATEVER IS INSERTED INTO THE DOCUMENT IS THEN CONSIDERED BOGUS.
BUT THIS METHOD ALLOWS TWO THINGS TO HAPPEN:
1) RESEARCHERS WHO BELIEVE THE DOCUMENT IS AUTHENTIC ARE THEREBY DISCREDITED WHEN ITS FALSITY IS PROVEN, THUS DIMINISHING THEIR REPUTATIONS;
2) IF THE TRUTH EVER DOES COME OUT, IT CAN BE SAID THAT A PORTION OF THE DOCUMENT WAS TRUE -- BUT SO WHAT?
MEANWHILE, ALL THE INFORMATION IS PLACED IN A 'SUSPICIOUS' CATEGORY. THIS TAKES EYES AWAY FROM CONSIDERATION OF TRUE FACTS THUS REVEALED, FOR THE PURPOSE OF DISCREDITING THEM, AS UNWORTHY OF FURTHER INVESTIGATION.
FRANKLY, IT DID NO HARM TO BE POSTED SINCE, AS A DISINFO PIECE, IT ACTUALLY POINTS OUT WHAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT.
SOPHISTICATED MEANS WERE USED TO CREATE THE FAKE DOCUMENT, SHOWING US THAT THE CREATOR(S) WELL KNEW WHAT ELEMENTS TO PLACE IN THE DOCUMENT TO MAKE IT APPEAR TRUE.
BUT THE DOCUMENT WAS CLEVERLY CREATED SO THAT ALSO, UPON CLOSE INSPECTION BY PERSONS WE MUST THEN CONSIDER AS EITHER BRILLIANT BUT INNOCENT OR SPECIALLY SELECTED TO 'OUT' THE DOCUMENT AS 'FAKE', IT WOULD FAIL 'AUTHENTICITY' TESTS.
BECAUSE IT WAS STAMPED CONFIDENTIAL' WHEN IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN STAMPED AT LEAST 'SECRET' TO ME IS A GIVEAWAY, BUT BILL KELLY WOULD KNOW MORE ABOUT THAT THAN I WOULD....
THE STATEMENTS ABOUT THE ONI I BELIEVE ARE TRUE. LEE SAID HE WAS 'BORROWED' FROM 'ANOTHER AGENCY' TO BE USED BY THE CIA.
SO I REPEAT:
MEANWHILE, ALL THE INFORMATION IN HE DOCUMENT IS NOW PLACED IN A 'SUSPICIOUS' CATEGORY BY RESEARCHERS. THIS REMINDS ME OF A MINK COAT THAT CAN'T BE ADVERTISED AS A MINK COAT BECAUSE 50% OF IT IS MUSKRAT, EVEN THOUGH IT'S 50% MINK -- IT'S STILL A FAKE.
CALLING ALL INFORMATION WITHIN THE FAKE DOCUMENT 'FAKE' TAKES EYES AWAY FROM CONSIDERATION OF TRUE FACTS WITHIN THE FAKE DOCUMENT, POSSIBLY FOR THE PURPOSE OF LEADING INVESTIGATORS AWAY FROM SENSITIVE AND REAL FACTS AS UNWORTHY OF FURTHER INVESTIGATION.
FOR THESE REASONS, I SAY, LET IT STAY, WITH QUALIFYING STATEMENTS:
(1) WHAT IS THE PROVENANCE OF THIS DOCUMENT?
(2) WHO FIRST SAID IT WAS A FAKE?
(3) WHO WAS MOST INTERESTED, AMONG THE WC DEFENDERS, IN PROVING THAT THE DOCUMENT WAS FALSE?
ALL THREE QUESTIONS ARE GREAT CLUES IN DETERMINING THE IMPORTANCE OF THE MATTER.
IT'S ALMOST AS GOOD AS A FAKE DOCUMENT AS IT IS AS AN AUTHENTIC ONE, AS IT CAN GIVE US LEADS AS TO LINKS TO DISINFO ARTISTS AND THEIR COMPATRIOTS IN THE MISCHIEF.
JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION...I DEFER TO THOSE WHO KNOW MORE...
JVB
ADDENDUM TO THE LAST POST FROM JUDYTH FOR JACK:
NOTE: Lola had asked Judyth for clarification about the final part of
this post, which has now arrived. So I am adding it for completeness.
Replace the original from the image of the document and continue with
the following:
You see, he was never fully trusted, he said, because he returned alive from the USSR.
And the USSR, perceiving that he was alive, might go through and double check all he had done. Once he risked his life to go to Moscow. He also spoke to Powers who was shot down (U2 incident) but I failed to ask if it was in person or by phone, darn it...
Lee and I became very close. I never could hear enough. He was not a talkative man, but eventually that changed as we grew closer. What impressed me the most was his appreciation of Kennedy and his loyalty to him. I had come from hostile anti-Kennedy territory in Florida, with anti-Castroites among my college friends, and he convinced me of JFK's courage and great capacity to make a difference in the country.
He despised LBJ and Nixon. He saw George Smathers, whom I had praised, as a traitor to Kennedy because Smathers was a segregationist who cow-towed constantly to LBJ. So imagine how I feel when I read lies that Oswald wanted to kill JFK. The very opposite was the case: he risked his life to try to save him.
I am grateful to Abraham Bolden for mentioning "Lee" as the informant to the FBI who saved Kennedy in Chicago. Lee told me he had worked hard to save Kennedy and had succeeded in one instance, which I reported to Shackelford and Platzman in 1999, as well as to "60 Minutes". Bolden confirmed that a "Lee" saved JFK from assassination in Chicago.
This makes sense to me, as Dr. Mary Sherman had many contacts in Chicago, coming originally from University of Chicago, and he said he relied on contacts to get the message through. He also dared to send some death threats as Dallas approached, hoping to get more security for JFK.
He was also present at the Stevenson UN Day event in Dallas when Stevenson was physically attacked by being spat upon and hit with a signboard during his speech. Lee had helped as one of the demonstrators and hoped the incident would increase security levels on JFK, for he knew if JFK made it to Dallas, he would have difficulty getting out alive unless extraordinary measures were taken.
He had penetrated (or was lured) into what he described as an assassination ring. The last meeting I knew of occurred on Sunday evening, the week before he assassination. He said he had never seen the individual he met a that time before. He wondered if they met so the character would be able to kill him on the 22nd...
We talked about an hour and a half his last call, which ended about 37 1/2 hours before the assassination, ending very early Thursday AM... He wanted to spend Thursday night with his babies and Marina... He wept, and said he would be there to tell them goodbye.
JVB
If the above bogus document is part of the JVB story, then she is most definately part of a very complicated psychological warfare operation that is being conducted by one Gregory Douglas, one which we are very familiar with and one that is meant to decieve and confuse.
BK
LOL
Ballistics
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted · Edited by Greg Burnham
Can you define "very quick" more precisely? Do you think it would take you less than 1 second or more than 1 second?
I was under the impression that he did not duplicate the conditions of duress that the shooter would have been under, including, the use of a tripod. I believe that is correct. While it is true that he placed a tight group within about the space of a dime, none of them were close to the target. Precision and accuracy have distinct significance in ballistics.
Not if one of the shooters were in front.
Where I come from we tend to rely on doctors to determine a great deal. No disrespect intended, but IMHO you have a lot of catching up to do.
GO_SECURE
monk