David Von Pein

LOL. I suggest that you, Bill, just glance at a few of the very recent threads at this forum. When you do that, you'll find that every one of the CT myths I outlined earlier is currently being peddled right here at Edu. -- from Doorway Man, to LBJ Did It, to the 3 Tramps, to the Motorcade Route myth, to your incredibly silly comment ("the evidence indicates Oswald didn't kill anyone"). All of those silly things are currently on Page 1 of this forum as I write this. So don't blame me for being "out of touch with reality" when it comes to these theories. I was merely pointing out the debunked myths that CTers right here are still peddling--right now--in 2012. And if you dig into the Edu. archives, I'm sure you can find a fairly recent thread on how Greer killed Kennedy, too. That's yet another myth that's still not debunked enough for some CTers.

When did you turn into an "outer fringe" conspiracy theorist, Bill? I never knew you were THAT far gone.

So, you think LBJ was involved in some plot, eh Bill? You must think so. Otherwise, why would you bring this up at all? I couldn't fling as much BS in a thousand lifetimes when compared to the excrement that comes out of this CT factory. E.G., The CTers who are still peddling the "Oswald Was In The Doorway" myth. The CTers who are still peddling the CT myth that the motorcade route was changed. The CTers who pretend that LBJ had Kennedy killed. The CTers who continue to think the three tramps were part of some plot to kill the President. The CTers who pretend that "the evidence indicates Oswald didn't kill anyone" (that's a direct--and hilariously absurd--Feb. 6 quote from William Kelly). Need I continue? It's fairly obvious that CTers never bother to shed the old worn-out BS theories that were trounced decades ago. They wear the stale theories like a medal. Year after year. It's hilarious. Encore Quotes: "To a person like Jim DiEugenio [and William Kelly too], it seems the MORE evidence and corroboration there is of Oswald committing his crimes, the more INNOCENT Mr. Oswald becomes. And that's a very strange and illogical policy to live by, isn't it?" -- David Von Pein; May 29, 2010 "There is almost as much evidence that Oswald shot Kennedy as there is evidence that Kennedy got shot." -- Bud; July 21, 2010 http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/b5094f337daa3eef

Only if you're silly enough to believe that the U.S. Secret Service would have had a desire to intentionally give their own agency a permanent black eye by deliberately permitting their "client" to be killed on their watch. Now I'll use your words, Burnham --- Give it a break.

Jesus H. Christ, what a load of bullxxxx.

DiEugenio apparently wants to play the part of Village Idiot and act as if the motorcade route was actually changed, even though there's ample proof that the route was positively not changed at all. But, as usual, to a conspiracy theorist like DiEugenio, it doesn't matter how stale and debunked a tired conspiracy theory might be, it's never TOO stale for the likes of some CTers who want to totally ignore the facts (which are presented below). Was The Motorcade Route Changed?

Palamara debunked here: http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/11/secret-service.html

Not at all..... KENNETH P. O'DONNELL. We arrived at Andrews and meanwhile the Attorney General had been notified, the decision had been made that he would go to Bethesda. ARLEN SPECTER. Who made that decision, by the way? Mr. O'DONNELL. Mrs. Kennedy. Mr. SPECTER. That the autopsy should be performed? Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't think she knew anything about an autopsy. The question is where the body went. We didn't tell her there was to be an autopsy. And the choice was Walter Reed or Bethesda. He being a Navy man, she picked Bethesda. Mr. SPECTER. She chose Bethesda, as between Bethesda and Walter Reed? Mr. O'DONNELL. She did. [7 H 454-455]

Tommy Graves, Can I get you to admit that the Dallas motorcade was not different or unusual in any way whatsoever when compared to other pre-November 22 motorcades that JFK rode in (from the standpoints of OPEN WINDOWS ALL ALONG THE ROUTE and SECRET SERVICE AGENTS NOT ALWAYS RIDING ON THE BUMPERS OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY'S LIMOUSINE)? LOL. If we were to examine the detailed routes for all of the many motorcades that JFK rode in during his three years as President, I'll bet you my next month's CIA/Bugliosi Disinfo Stipend that we could find a whole bunch of similar "death traps" that JFK travelled through. But since he wasn't shot and killed on any of those other streets, there's no complaint coming from CTers, is there? Even though there were no doubt a lot of situations that would equate very closely to the situation that occurred on Elm Street in Dallas. Or don't you think I could find even ONE similar "death trap" if I was privy to the detailed routes that JFK travelled from Jan. '61 to Nov. '63?

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/11/secret-service.html But I assume you have no problem with the Secret Service allowing JFK's car to completely stop on at least one occasion during the Dallas motorcade (and I think it was actually twice, because there's the story of JFK also stopping to greet a group of nuns along the route too, in addition to the incident mentioned below by Secret Service agent Clint Hill): CLINT HILL -- "We did stop." ARLEN SPECTER -- "On what occasion did you stop?" MR. HILL -- "Between Love Field and Main Street, downtown Dallas, on the right-hand side of the street there were a group of people with a long banner which said, "Please, Mr. President, stop and shake our hands." And the President requested the motorcade to stop, and he beckoned to the people and asked them to come and shake his hand, which they did." --------------- And I assume that you have no problem with the SS allowing hundreds of people to hang out of windows along virtually every large-city motorcade that JFK ever rode in -- such as in Dallas, on Main Street, before JFK reached Dealey Plaza (top picture below).

Not at all, Ray. Including this Ken O'Donnell matter, I have not seen any proof by anyone that indicates the Warren Report cannot be trusted. To the contrary, every single time I hear a conspiracy theorist bash the WC or the WCR, I look into it a little deeper to find a source for the things the CTers say have not been documented or supported by the Warren Commission, and every single time I have been able to find a good source for the Warren Report's contents. And that is largely because the WCR is sourced so well--with 6,500 source citations. You would think that if the WC was nothing but a sham and a farce, they wouldn't have been able to back up their findings so thoroughly with citations. But they did document their findings and conclusions very well. For example, the O'Donnell thing: I checked the source that the WCR uses on Page 31 when the Report says that O'Donnell made the final decision to use the Trade Mart for the luncheon. And the source leads to CE1360, which is a July 10, 1964, memorandum to the WC from Secret Service Chief James Rowley. The memo seen in CE1360 says that O'Donnell informed Jerry Behn of the Secret Service that the Trade Mart was going to be the place where the 11/22 luncheon would be held, with Behn then notifying Winston Lawson on November 14, 1963 -- which is just exactly what the Warren Report says on Page 31 of its final report. I suppose the conspiracists will argue that CE1360 doesn't specifically say this: "Ken O'Donnell made the final Trade Mart decision." And it's true that CE1360 doesn't say that. But the sum and substance of Rowley's memo to J. Lee Rankin on 7/10/64, IMO, is identical to the words we find on Page 31 of the WCR regarding Kenneth O'Donnell. O'Donnell, et al, might have "acquiesced" to Governor Connally's wishes, but in the final analysis, it was not John Connally's FINAL DECISION to hold the luncheon at the Trade Mart. That was part of Ken O'Donnell's job to finalize that decision. And, as the WCR says on Page 31, it was O'Donnell who did just that. Another excellent example of how CTers love to misrepresent the Warren Report: http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/11/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-82.html

No, not really. They are pretty much the same thing here. Because the Trade Mart was selected as the luncheon site; and Kenneth P. O'Donnell was the person who "made the final decision to hold the luncheon at the Trade Mart" (direct quote from Page 31 of the Warren Commission Report). Ergo, Ken O'Donnell did ultimately put his seal of "approval" on the Trade Mart. But, aside from any semantics issues here, if Kenny O'Donnell (or someone else in a very high position in President Kennedy's inner circle) had truly wanted to nix the Trade Mart as the location for the November 22 luncheon, then it would have been nixed. Simple as that. And there would have been nothing that John Connally could have done about it. Yes, it's true that Connally wanted the luncheon to be held at the Trade Mart. But if the Secret Service had told O'Donnell that they just simply could not secure the balconies in that building properly enough to ensure JFK's safety, then O'Donnell would have undoubtedly nixed the Trade Mart as the luncheon site. Don't you agree that that would have happened, Gil? Or were John Connally's desires and wishes the only things that mattered to O'Donnell, and to hell with the President's safety? Gil Jesus, in his first post in this thread, is obviously implying that John B. Connally was part of something sinister when it comes to Connally pushing for the Trade Mart as the Dallas luncheon site. Because if that's NOT what you're implying in your first post, Gil, then what's the point of highlighting things like "Governor" and "the Governor felt very strongly on it". You apparently want to believe that John Connally was a prime conspirator in the murder of JFK. Otherwise, again, what's your point? Your interpretation of the facts, as usual, is not only ridiculous -- it's insane. And to illustrate just how insane Gil's theories can be, I offer up the following prime example: "Let's not forget that all of the previous three successful Presidential assassinations were made from a distance of three feet or less. In addition, the position of Kennedy's head at Z312, together with the description by the witnesses of an entry wound in the right front of the head and an exit wound in the right rear, would indicate a trajectory of a shot coming out of the floorboard of the car. "Let's also not forget that Johnson's man Connally was less than 3 feet from the President when he was murdered and was reportedly known to have carried a gun strapped to his ankle. Think about it." -- Gil Jesus; July 15, 2007 [original post below] http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/dd783b571f900c24

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-107.html

I guess I was wrong. People do exist in this world who are silly enough to call Kenny O'Donnell an outright xxxx. Isn't that special?

Burkley didn't measure anything when it came to JFK's wounds, Cliff. He didn't perform the autopsy. So why would anybody accept his approximations over the autopsy report?

To those who think it was Oswald in the doorway, is Wesley Frazier lying here [@ 8:30]? ..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzw3RlNgR1s

http://JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/aircraft-radio-transmissions-11-22-63.html#Air-Force-One-Tapes-CNN-Video The above CNN video is totally misleading, with the commentators giving the CNN audience the impression that there was possibly something sinister, devious, or conspiratorial about the decision to take President Kennedy's body to Bethesda Naval Hospital instead of Walter Reed Hospital on the night of the President's assassination. It's true that on the Air Force One radio tapes (the 2-hour version released by NARA in January 2012), Dr. George Burkley does say that the body will be going to Walter Reed. But that was obviously not a finalized decision at the time Burkley made that statement aboard Air Force One on 11/22/63. And much more important is the fact that we know exactly WHO it was who made the final decision to have the autopsy at Bethesda -- it was Jackie Kennedy herself. And the Warren Commission testimony of Ken O'Donnell confirms that fact for history (at 7 H 454-455): KENNETH P. O'DONNELL -- "We arrived at Andrews and meanwhile the Attorney General had been notified, the decision had been made that he would go to Bethesda." ARLEN SPECTER -- "Who made that decision, by the way?" MR. O'DONNELL -- "Mrs. Kennedy." MR. SPECTER -- "That the autopsy should be performed?" MR. O'DONNELL -- "I don't think she knew anything about an autopsy. The question is where the body went. We didn't tell her there was to be an autopsy. And the choice was Walter Reed or Bethesda. He being a Navy man, she picked Bethesda." MR. SPECTER -- "She chose Bethesda, as between Bethesda and Walter Reed?" MR. O'DONNELL -- "She did." http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/html/WC_Vol7_0231b.htm ------------------- So when Rice University historian Douglas Brinkley recently appeared on CNN and told the unaware audience that we are still "missing" any kind of an explanation for why JFK's autopsy was performed at Bethesda instead of Walter Reed, he simply didn't know what he was talking about. Because the above excerpt taken from Kenny O'Donnell's 1964 Warren Commission testimony put that question to rest 48 years ago. It would be nice if the talking heads (like Douglas Brinkley) would do at least a small amount of homework and research before appearing on live television, in front of millions of people, and saying incorrect and uninformed things that can only add to the suspicions of the American public and lead them to the inaccurate notion that something sinister and underhanded just might have been going on with respect to the selection of Bethesda as the site for JFK's autopsy. When, in reality, the truth is something quite non-sinister and innocent: the President's widow selected the location of the autopsy herself. And anyone who wants to doubt that fact is going to have to call one of JFK's best friends, Kenneth P. O'Donnell, an outright xxxx. And I doubt if there are even many hardcore conspiracy theorists who have a desire to do that. In addition, JFK's personal physician, Admiral George Burkley, whose voice we hear on the newly-released expanded version of the Air Force One tape saying that JFK's body was going to go to Walter Reed, told the HSCA in an affidavit that it was, indeed, Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy who had made the final decision (and/or had given "permission", per Burkley's affidavit) to have JFK's body taken to Bethesda: "I had ordered the United States Naval Hospital to be prepared for performing an autopsy on the body of John F. Kennedy, President of the United States, the permission having been granted by Mrs. Kennedy while enroute. It was to be a complete autopsy with no limitations and no curtailment in time necessary for completion." -- George G. Burkley; November 28, 1978 http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/burkaff.htm Burkley, by the way, also said this in that same affidavit: "I saw President Kennedy's wounds at Parkland Hospital and during the autopsy at the Bethesda Naval Hospital. There was no difference in the nature of the wounds I saw at Parkland Hospital and those I observed at the autopsy at Bethesda Naval Hospital." -- George Burkley; 11/28/78 ------------------- In addition, I want to also emphasize something else that's very relevant to the previously-linked CNN video feature Rice University's Douglas Brinkley: Brinkley and the other talking heads in that CNN clip seem to be of the opinion that prior to late January 2012, when the National Archives released a new expanded 2.5-hour version of the Air Force One radio transmissions, nobody in the world had ever heard any audio clips from the AF1 tapes that even suggested that President Kennedy's body was going to be taken to Walter Reed Hospital in Washington. But that's simply wrong. The previously-available condensed versions of the Air Force One radio tapes contain multiple references to the body being taken to Walter Reed for the post-mortem examination. JFK's military aide, General Chester V. Clifton, can be heard giving instructions to Washington regarding the location of the autopsy. Clifton can be heard on the tape saying this: "This is General Clifton. .... We do not want a helicopter for Bethesda Medical Center. We do want an ambulance and a ground return from Andrews to Walter Reed; and we want the regular post-mortem that has to be done by law under guard performed at Walter Reed." -- Chester V. Clifton; Aboard Air Force One; 11/22/63 And, to emphasize again, the above quote from General Clifton is not a "new" discovery at all (contrary to what the commentators and analysts at CNN seem to believe). The audio clip that contains General Clifton's "Walter Reed" quote has been available for years. And I've had that audio clip on my websites for quite some time prior to January 2012. You can hear Clifton make the above statement regarding "Walter Reed" at the very beginning of the video labelled "Part 2" on the webpage below: http://DVP-Potpourri.blogspot.com/2010/09/aircraft-radio-transmissions-11-22-63.html

....

That's amazing. And nearly unbelievable. I'm not saying you're wrong, Bill. It just seems unbelievable to me. Can a guy in his basement in Baton Rouge listen in to the private AF1 conversations here in 2012 while SAM 28000 is airborne? Or has the Govt. decided to make the AF1 airwaves a tad more secure nowadays? (I don't mean regular ATC traffic, of course.)

Absolutely. (If such a tape exists, that is.) The more stuff I can add to my A/V sites, the better. :-) I've had a 16-minute version of the AF1 tapes on my sites for years, and I was very glad to see an expanded 2-hour version come to the forefront from NARA this week. Plus, if such an "unedited" tape could be made public, it would serve to silence a few more conspiracists....because such an unedited tape would certainly not be revealing anything covert or sinister in any way, shape, or form.

There are no photos of AF1 in the book. And there is no discussion at all about the trip from Dallas to Washington on Nov. 22. And there are no assassination-related pictures in the book at all. The book is a celebration of JFK's life rather than his death. http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/08/memories-jfk-1961-1963.html

Bill, Do you really believe that some ham radio operator in Boise, Idaho, could have listened in on the AF1 radio frequencies on 11/22/63? That, to me, sounds like a ridiculous claim....and a ridiculous possibility (even in circa 1963). I would imagine the AF1 radio frequencies were a little more secure than that. (Do I know for sure they were more secure than that? No, but I'm guessing they were.)

'Tweren't easy. You've asked me that on a previous occasion, Bill. You must really be curious about that, as it seems to occupy a permanent space in your head. I'll check that book right now and see what I can find re Clifton.

Ya gotta love the paranoid mind of a conspiracy theorist at work. On what amounts to no evidence whatsoever on which to base such a charge, the conspiracy theorist has no hesitation whatsoever in jumping to the sordid and sinister conclusion quoted above. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

LOL. Bill, do you really think those comments by Clifton and Bundy reflect some sort of knowledge about a conspiracy to kill Kennedy? Get real. Those comments merely reflect the natural concern among JFK's top aides that some kind of "plot" MIGHT have existed in Dallas to murder the President. Nothing more, nothing less. And it's the very same concern that LBJ, RFK, and lots of other people (both in and out of the Government) were feeling and expressing in the hours and days following JFK's assassination. I suppose a bunch of CTers are ready and eager to make a hot boiling volcano out of this wet-weather spring: "Ted Clifton talked to Bundy, too, asking again whether an international plot was emerging. .... Bundy replied crisply that the Pentagon was taking its own steps."