David Von Pein

Not at all, Jim. I expressly quoted the reason as to why I changed my opinion on that matter (and, btw, I always maintained my uncertainty about how mail-order companies like Seaport dealt with C.O.D. orders in 1963, and I expressed my admitted uncertainty in my 2010 posts to you on this matter, which you will always ignore, as usual). But it wasn't JUST because Dale Myers posted it, it was because of WHAT Dale Myers posted. Myers quoted REA Vice-President Robert Hendon, who said that in a similar case "a card was sent to the name and address" of the person who ordered the C.O.D. merchanchise. That was the clincher for me and cleared up the confusion about the C.O.D. order, which was confusion that was actually started by Heinz Michaelis himself, who specifically DID say that the package containing THE GUN was mailed to Oswald's P.O. Box. What he really should have said, however, was that a notification card was sent to the Post Office, who then put that card in Oswald's box, and the physical gun itself was retained by REA Express at the REA office in Dallas. But do you really think Myers just MADE UP that quote from Hendon?

There's so much proof that Oswald murdered Tippit, it's mind-boggling. And it's the BEST kind of evidence too -- ballistics (and yes, the bullet shells are irrevocably tied to LHO's gun, and why you're saying otherwise is a huge mystery; but you couldn't be more wrong on that point, as confirmed by Nicol, Frazier, Killion, and Cunningham....and others from the HSCA too) .... plus the fact that Oswald still had the murder weapon in his OWN HANDS just 35 minutes after the murder .... plus MULTIPLE eyewitnesses who said it was OSWALD, not somebody else, who either killed Tippit or fled the scene immediately afterward. Just stay in fantasy land on this, Duke. That's where you apparently feel most comfortable.

[Deleted duplicate post.]

But Seaport certainly had not received the COD money from anyone connected with the Hidell order by MARCH 13, for Pete sake. The revolver wasn't even shipped until March 20. Plus -- There's no proof the deposit was sent "in January". In fact, the BEST evidence on this (in my view) is the Seaport invoice below, which clearly indicates that they processed Oswald's mail-order coupon on MARCH 13TH, even though the coupon itself was dated January 27th. Don't you think it's even remotely possible that Oswald simply filled out the coupon in January (for some reason) and then waited until he had saved enough money to buy BOTH the revolver and the rifle, and then mailed both the Klein's & Seaport coupons on the same day (March 12th)? That scenario is quite believable and reasonable, IMO. And, as I said, the paperwork from BOTH Klein's and Seaport would seem to make my theory on this even more possible, and even probable, because BOTH the Klein's and Seaport invoices have "March 13" dates on them. Also -- Why in the world would Seaport have had any need to save the envelope in which Oswald mailed his $10 cash deposit? Now it's true that the microfilmed documents at Klein's do show the envelope for the rifle order (along with the order form on the same microfilm), but that doesn't mean that another company (Seaport Traders, Inc.) necessarily HAD to follow the exact same procedures as Klein's. Seaport DID save the order form. Why the need to save a torn-open envelope? In short, there was no real need to save that envelope. And it's absolutely incredible that some CTers actually want to use the lack of an envelope to promote some strange theory that Oswald never sent in an order and $10 in cash to Seaport. And why would there necessarily be any traceable record of a particular ten-dollar bill that a customer mailed to Seaport? Seaport probably received a lot of deposits in cash through the mail (even if they did prefer customers to send MO or checks). But I kinda doubt they would just REFUSE to fill anyone's order just because they sent in cash. And when they received the cash, they simply deposited it in their bank account with other cash and checks and MOs they received that day. There would be no specific notation to the effect that "This $10 bill here came from A.J. Hidell's order", or "This $20 here was from William Montgomery in Houston". That's silly to think such records for CASH transactions would be kept. Also: Dale Myers fully explains the details of Oswald's revolver transaction, and the procedures that Seaport and REA took to establish that Oswald's revolver order had been processed, delivered, and paid for by the customer. And the "red copy" of the invoice, which had the COD remittance document attached to it, verifies that the money had been collected. And it's quite possible that Oswald merely paid CASH, once again, when he picked up the revolver. Quoting Dale Myers: "Once Oswald received the notification card at his P.O. Box, he simply took a bus back to the REA Express office -- presented the notification card, the balance due, and some form of identification -- and accepted delivery of the revolver. "After REA Express had delivered the package to Oswald, the C.O.D. remittance document and the amount collected from Oswald, was forwarded to Seaport Traders. Once received, the C.O.D. remittance document was attached to the red copy of the invoice, indicating that the money had been collected and the package delivered. These documents were placed in the Seaport Trader files, where they were discovered by FBI agents on November 30, 1963. "The paper trail created by Oswald's purchase of the .38 Smith & Wesson revolver under the name A.J. Hidell is clear and direct. The actions taken by Seaport Traders and REA Express in response to Oswald's order are consistent with each company’s rules and regulations at the time and serve as evidence that the order was processed and delivered as described. "The fact that the revolver shipped to Oswald's P.O. Box was in his possession at the time of his arrest is further evidence that the transaction occurred as demonstrated. "In conclusion, there can be no doubt that Oswald ordered and later took possession of the V510210 revolver." -- Dale K. Myers; 1998 http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2010/08/oswalds-mail-order-revolver-purchase.html

So, what are you saying, Lee? Do you think both Callaway and Guinyard were liars? They really WEREN'T together when Oswald passed by? And actually, come to think of it, Guinyard is a good witness for the proposition that Oswald was still, indeed, "kicking out shells" out of his gun all the way down Patton, which means that a FIFTH shell might very well have been ejected farther down the street from the corner of 10th & Patton, which would be consistent with Oswald firing five shots (as Callaway always maintained), with one of the shells never being recovered. I've never heard of anybody hunting for shells far down Patton Avenue. Have you? It's quite possible that a shell was dropped there by Oswald and never found. Here's what Callaway said about that: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-bEyazi8WAuSVMtWG1aTWlNeWc/view

Irrelevant for this discussion. This discussion is all about your stupid and inane belief that Callaway was lying about seeing ANY gunman on Patton Avenue after Tippit was shot. But Guinyard confirms that he was right next to Callaway when the gunman passed by. Or would you like now to say that Callaway WAS there, but he had his eyes closed and never SAW anything? I already said that you can toss Tatum in the trash (which, of course, you already have--years ago). Why are you belaboring this? Whenever I talk to a CTer, I always toss Tatum in the garbage too. (Just like you are forced to reject Beverly Oliver and Gordon Arnold on the same grounds.)

Yeah, just pretend that DVP is the ONLY person on the planet who thinks your silliness re Callaway is really silliness. So, you'll ignore the fact that the WC and the HSCA declared your favorite patsy guilty of killing Tippit (and Kennedy). And there are many thousands of reasonable people out there, besides me, who know that Callaway saw Oswald and that Oswald shot Tippit. Hell, you don't even think that Oswald's actions in the theater are indicative of his guilt, do you? He pulls a gun, tries to shoot more cops, utters one (or two) statements that reek with guilt ("It's all over now" and/or "This is it"), and fights like a wild man before the cuffs are slapped on him. Or do you think Oswald really had a gun in the theater? Was that all "fraudulent" too? Including Johnny Brewer's confirmation of an ARMED Oswald fighting with the cops inside the theater? (Yes, I changed the subject a bit. But, oh well.)

Dead wrong. Bill Scoggins is positively a "Murder Witness", no matter how you want to categorize him. He saw Tippit fall to the ground and then saw Oswald, with a gun, coming straight toward him. And, of course, Domingo Benavides is a murder witness too. And probably Jack Tatum, but you can throw him out if you like (which you will), because he didn't surface for 15 more years. But he saw Oswald shoot Tippit in the head. So, to say that Helen Markham is the only "official eyewitness" is just a crock. And you know it's a crock. Let me repeat my edit from my last post (so you can now start calling Sam Guinyard a bald-faced xxxx too): JOSEPH BALL -- "Did you see Mr. Callaway there?" SAM GUINYARD -- "We was together; yes, sir."

So, by implication, we've now got Lee Farley calling all of the following people liars too (since Farley is clearly impying in this thread that Ted Callaway saw NO GUNMAN AT ALL on Patton on 11/22/63): B.D. Searcy Pat Patterson Warren Reynolds Sam Guinyard L.J. Lewis Harold Russell All of the above witnesses saw a gunman in the area of Patton Avenue and Jefferson Boulevard just after J.D. Tippit was shot. And, to a lesser degree, all of the following witnesses must be liars too (to the extent that they each saw the lone killer of Tippit at the corner of 10th & Patton and moving toward the area on Patton where Ted Callaway's car lot was located): Barbara Davis Virginia Davis Domingo Benavides William Scoggins Here's what Sam Guinyard told the Warren Commission: JOSEPH BALL -- "Did you see Mr. Callaway there?" SAM GUINYARD -- "We was together; yes, sir." http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/guinyard1.htm ================= I have a feeling that Lee Farley is just pulling my leg in this thread re Callaway, though. Because nobody with all their screws tightened can possibly deny that Callaway saw a gunman (Lee Oswald to be exact) on Patton Avenue. Particularly when ALL of the above witnesses corroborate Callaway's observations. I guess maybe it's a slow week at Anybody-But-Oswald central (where Farley is Vice-President -- DiEugenio is Grand Poobah), so he decided to come up with one of the silliest theories I have ever heard re this case -- i.e., that Ted Callaway saw NO GUNMAN AT ALL on Patton on 11/22. That rivals Brian David Andersen's "JFK WAS WEARING A PYROTECHNICS DEVICE AND FAKED HIS OWN DEATH" theory.

Yeah, I didn't think you'd have the 'nads to just answer my Callaway question Yes or No. Just as DiEugenio will never do either. Because you'd be boxed into a ridiculous position either way--which is why I asked the question. If you answer "Yes, I think Callaway saw a gunman on Patton", then you've got to admit that your question about why Ted asked Domingo which way the killer went was a completely useless question. And if you answer "No", then you're forced to call Callaway an outright xxxx, plus you'd have to admit that several other car-lot workers were liars too--such as Searcy, Reynolds, and Patterson, who all saw the same gunman Callaway saw. Either way, you look like a goof. As usual. You probably should have asked me this question regarding Callaway: Why the heck didn't Callaway ask Scoggins which way the killer went, instead of asking Benavides? After all, Ted was sitting right next to Scoggins in the cab, and Scoggins was a witness at Tenth & Patton too. And also: why didn't Scoggins speak up and ALSO answer Callaway's question that was aimed at Benavides? * * = Of course, perhaps Scoggins did confirm it. Who knows. We don't know the verbatim words that were exchanged between these guys on Tenth St. on 11/22.

Then why did the Seaport invoices have a check box for "Cash" (such as the invoice for Oswald's revolver purchase seen below....which, btw, clearly indicates that a "Cash" payment was received)?

Belin was probably inquiring about a possible money order that Oswald might have used to pay the C.O.D. balance of $19.95 (+$1.27) when he picked up the revolver. What makes you think Belin was talking about Oswald's deposit payment of $10.00? We have no idea how Oswald paid REA for the balance of the payment. He could have used a money order. Or maybe he again paid cash.

Oh, come on, Ed. Oswald mailed $10 cash to Seaport. We KNOW that, via Michaelis. And since there was no line for "Cash", Oswald merely used the "check" line on the order form. Why are you calling Michaelis a xxxx when he verified via his WC testimony that Seaport received $10 IN CASH from Oswald/Hidell? Why don't you believe him?

Let me hear you say it right out loud, Lee. With no ambiguity attached: Do you think Ted Callaway saw ANYONE with a gun on Patton Avenue just after Tippit was killed on November 22, 1963? Yes or no.

Prove that anyone's testimony was "altered" in order to engage in a cover-up in the murders of JFK & J.D. Tippit. (Again the bold text is the key phrase.) Lee, whether you want to believe it or not, there COULD BE (and are) non-conspiratorial explanations for the many things you CTers find "suspicious". The Hosty note being a very good example. And the burning of Humes' notes for another. And the Katzenbach memo for another. And on and on. But, being a CTer, you refuse to consider ANY non-conspiratorial explanation if it's in competition with a conspiratorial alternative. And let's face facts -- most things are NOT conspiratorial in life. And the JFK/Tippit murders weren't either.

This seems like a good time to interject the following spot-on quote from Professor McAdams (the logical man all CTers despise more than Hitler). It's a good time to post this quote since, as we can see in this thread about the Tippit murder and the ordering of the Tippit murder weapon by Oswald, many conspiracists will continually reject the best evidence and latch onto the least reliable evidence connected to the various sub-topics associated with the JFK & Tippit murders (just as Lee Farley and Jimbo D. have done, as usual, in this thread): "Focusing on the most reliable evidence violates the collector's instinct of conspiracy theorists. They collect evidence assiduously, and whoever has the biggest collection is the best researcher—just as the best stamp collector is one who has the largest number and the rarest stamps." -- John McAdams; Page 157 of "JFK Assassination Logic: How To Think About Claims Of Conspiracy" http://Quoting-Common-Sense.blogspot.com

That's an easy one, Lee: Since Callaway didn't actually SEE THE MURDER take place, Callaway was merely confirming that the person he saw with a gun on Patton Avenue was, indeed, the ONE & ONLY KILLER of Officer Tippit. Callaway, at the time, had no way of knowing if there were one, two, or more killers. So it doesn't seem strange that he would want to confirm (in his own mind) that "THE KILLER" escaped down Patton. And he did confirm that via Benavides. I achieved my goal though -- Because I just knew beyond all doubt that one or more of you conspiracy theorists here at the "Education Forum" would try to paint Ted Callaway as a bald-faced xxxx. And I was 100% correct. You actually think Callaway DIDN'T see anyone run past him on Patton on 11/22. Beautiful. And I see that DiEugenio decided to wait until Farley posted his inane remarks about Callaway before he chimed in with his confirmation that he, too, disbelieves Callaway. Two conspiracy mongers for the price of one. Not a bad day's work. Now, let's move on to William Scoggins (another witness who verifies the presence of Lee Harvey Oswald on Tenth Street during the Tippit murder): Just exactly how are you guys going to attempt to discredit Mr. Scoggins in order to pretend that your #1 Patsy for all Nov. 22 murders was totally innocent? I can't wait to hear the CT brilliance.

Oh, boy! There's a bombshell. That MUST mean there was a cover-up. I sure as heck hope not. Otherwise, I'm out of a nice-paying CIA Disinfo job. So, please Lee, continue to believe stupid xxxx -- like Oswald being innocent of shooting Officer Tippit. (And NOTHING is higher on the "stupid xxxx" scale than that one.)

Better look again at what I said, Mr. Morrow -- I didn't say that Belin walked from Beckley to Tenth Street in 5:45. Here's what I said: "David Belin & Co. walked the distance from Neely & Beckley to 1026 Beckley in 5 min. & 45 sec."

And I see you're still avoiding Ted Callaway, Jimbo. Cool.

Well, just ignore me, Jimbo. Simple enough, huh? Or are you being FORCED by an outside entity to respond to everything I say with your Anybody-But-Oswald claptrap? I just love it when Jimbo tells me that I "know" that some portion (or ANY portion) of his nuttiness regarding Oswald's weapons purchases is "ridiculous". No, Jimmy, it's not "ridiculous" to think that Oswald ordered, paid for, and took possession of Rifle C2766 and Revolver V510210. You, Jim, are in the minority on this issue. Even most conspiracy theorists will acknowledge that Oswald ordered the guns. It couldn't be more obvious that he did. Only the outer-fringe conspiracy hacks actually want to believe that he never ordered the guns at all. For Pete sake, you're shooting your own silly theory in the foot by pretending he DIDN'T order the rifle. Because it makes much more sense, even from your Anybody-But-Oswald POV, to admit he did order C2766, and then that some evil forces decided to frame him WITH HIS OWN GUN. That's much more logical than your craziness about all of the paperwork being phony, etc. And, in fact, most CTers also admit that Oswald shot Kennedy (at least based on this 2003 ABC poll, which had 1,031 respondents): Do you think Lee Harvey Oswald was the only gunman in the Kennedy assassination, do you think there was another gunman in addition to Oswald there that day, or do you think Oswald was not involved in the assassination at all?..... ONLY OSWALD ----------- 32% ANOTHER GUNMAN ------- 51% OSWALD NOT INVOLVED -- 7% NO OPINION ------------- 10% http://www.pollingreport.com/news3.htm#Kennedy

WTF? Nice batch of gibberish there, John.

Where is your proof the rifle and pistol arrived at the P.O. (coming from Chicago and Los Angeles, respectively) "on the same day"? There's no proof of that. (Not that it really matters, of course.) Plus: Why couldn't Oswald have picked up his guns on a Saturday, instead of a workday? He didn't work Saturdays at Jaggars, did he? And weren't the post offices open at least a half-day on Saturdays in Dallas in 1963? (They are here in Indiana.) Another basic, common-sense point needs to be made here---- Who the heck orders something through the mail, and then doesn't even bother to go and pick it up? And please don't chime in with "Where's the proof Oswald ordered ANY guns through the mail?" -- because that's totally absurd. OF COURSE Oswald ordered his guns via mail-order. Hence, he would have been expecting them to arrive at the place he had them sent--his P.O. Box. Hence, he would have picked the damn things up. Can anyone possibly fight the basic logic of my last paragraph? And, IMO, the rifle and pistol were not ordered a month apart. Oswald merely filled out the pistol coupon on January 27th, but it's almost a certainty that he didn't mail it until March 12th...the same day he mailed in his rifle coupon to Klein's. How can we know this? Because BOTH Seaport & Klein's internal paperwork show stamped dates of "March 13, 1963" on the respective invoices for those purchases. (Which, of course, would also mean, if I'm correct, that Oswald's revolver coupon made it to L.A. in just one day -- which is possible, since he very likely used Air Mail to mail it too, like he did his Klein's order.) But do you really think that Seaport received Oswald's order in late January, but then didn't write up the invoice until March 13th? I would doubt it. And please note that the Seaport order indicates with an "X" the method of Oswald's initial $10 deposit -- via "Cash".

So, since there's no official record of Oswald having gone to the REA office to pick up the revolver (which is a revolver that we know beyond all doubt that he definitely ordered; Jimbo's absurd protests notwithstanding), this must mean, per DiEugenio, that Oswald couldn't possibly have gone to REA to get the gun. Brilliant, Jim. Via that tortured logic, then whenever a person does something that is not witnessed by someone else (or was not investigated by anybody in order to seek out anyone who saw it occurring), I guess this would mean that the thing the person did never really got done, because nobody was there to see it or verify its happening. Jim, you continue to be one of the best jokes on the World Wide Web when it comes to the topic of President Kennedy's assassination.

Sure: Earlene Roberts was very likely wrong about her "3 to 4 minute" estimate. Oswald, just like Frederic Forrest in the 1978 movie scene I linked to, probably was in his cubbyhole of a room for about 30 seconds, and not anywhere near three or four minutes. David Belin & Co. walked the distance from Neely & Beckley to 1026 Beckley in 5 min. & 45 sec. If Oswald had moved considerably faster than Belin's "walking" pace, he could have shaved some time off of Belin's re-creation time and could have likely been inside his room by about 12:57. He's in his room for 30 seconds, then heads for Tenth Street. He can positively get to Tenth & Patton in about 11 minutes (that's been done by Dave Perry and others in past reconstructions). That puts him beside Tippit's patrol car at precisely 1:09. Which, as mentioned, would also have to mean that Domingo Benavides stood beside Tippit's police car picking lint out of his belly button for SEVEN MINUTES before using the police radio. And that is not a reasonable thing to believe, IMO.