David Von Pein

Another rather incredible claim that ex-Secret Service agent Paul Landis is now making (via the Vanity Fair article) is his claim that he saw two "bullet fragments" lying on the back seat as well.

Of course, as we all know, there were no bullet fragments recovered from the BACK seat. The two large bullet fragments (CE567 & CE569) were found in the FRONT seat of the limousine after the car was flown back to Washington.

Some people (mostly CTers) can always claim, of course, that Agent Landis really did see a couple of bullet fragments lying on the back seat on Nov. 22, but the Bucket Brigade (clean-up crew) scooped those fragments up when they (allegedly) washed out the back of the limo at Parkland.

Bottom Line regarding Mr. Paul Landis (IMO):

It's absolutely ridiculous and wholly unbelievable to think that a member of the United States Secret Service, right after discovering and moving a piece of very important evidence connected directly to the shooting of a U.S. President, wouldn't have mentioned to anyone on the very day it happened the fact that he found a whole bullet right there in the same car where JFK was murdered.

Landis' explanation for why he never uttered a word to anyone else about his bullet discovery (via the Vanity Fair article) is this:

"The special agent simply never gave the bullet a second thought, he says. He had left it where someone would find it."

The above reasoning which has Landis just assuming that somebody in the Parkland Hospital emergency room would notice the bullet after he placed it on JFK's stretcher is, in my opinion, just not a believable excuse at all for not saying a word to anyone about his discovery, especially since Landis also readily admits in that same Vanity Fair article that "he believed it was crucial evidence and needed for the autopsy".

So, Agent Landis supposedly finds a bullet, doesn't maintain possession of it, but then decides to not tell another living soul in the hospital about his discovery after he leaves that bullet lying on President Kennedy's stretcher?! That's just laughable and idiotic. And, of course, not the slightest bit believable.

Landis also says (again via the Vanity Fair article) that in later years he thought of his bullet discovery as merely "a minor detail".

That's a fairly large "minor detail", if you ask me.

And nobody can possibly use the fact that Mr. Landis, in later years, suffered from PTSD, which is, indeed, unfortunate for him. But any PTSD that was suffered by Mr. Landis certainly can't explain his lack of communicating with someone (anyone!) the fact he had found (and moved) a bullet on November 22, 1963.

9 minutes ago, Vince Palamara said:

I am actually stunned by all these Landis headlines/news because the hype for his forthcoming book on Amazon gave the impression he was going to DEBUNK conspiracy theories. I am confused LOL!

Yes, it is a bit confusing. One of the blurbs on Landis' Amazon book page specifically says this:

"Landis learns about the raging conspiracy theories—and realizes where they all go wrong."

He surely isn't totally ignorant of the fact that JFK also had a wound in his throat. Or is he?

~shrug~

19 minutes ago, Vince Palamara said:

DVP-thoughts?

Oh yeah, Vince, I've known for some time now that Clint Hill isn't a big fan of the SBT.

I think I could convince him though. If he would just take a good look at all the stuff I present here and here, I think I'd have a chance at turning Clint into an SBT believer.

1 hour ago, Vince Palamara said:

Interestingly enough, Landis says that for a long time -- he was pretty sure LHO acted alone. But says this now ... "At this point, I’m beginning to doubt myself. Now I begin to wonder."

Paul Landis, following his new "revelation", really doesn't have much of a choice but to have doubts about Oswald acting alone. Because if what Landis theorizes is true (i.e., the back-wound bullet to Kennedy ended up on the top of the back seat after JFK was thrown to the rear at the time of the head shot), then that would almost certainly have to mean that a second assassin shot Kennedy in the throat with a frontal shot. (Unless Mr. Landis wants to theorize that it wasn't a BULLET at all that caused JFK's throat wound, but instead it was a fragment from the head shot that did the throat damage, with that damage giving the false appearance of a bullet hole to Dr. Perry.) ~shrug~

But with each additional theory comes even more questions and problems. Such as:

If a single bullet didn't wound both JFK and Connally....and if the bullet that Landis allegedly found was, indeed, CE399 (which I think Landis says he believes is the case)....then what the heck happened to the bullet (or bullets) that hit Governor Connally?!

With the Single-Bullet Theory in place, of course, we don't need to ask the question I just posed above. There are no "missing bullets" with the SBT. But with the LBT (Landis Bullet Theory) in the mix of possible scenarios now, this question will always be hanging out there, never to be satifactorily answered by any conspiracy theorist:

Where did the bullet go that struck John Connally and ended up making a shallow wound in his left thigh?

CTers can, of course, always resort to the theory that has a fragment from the JFK head shot creating the superficial wound in Connally's leg. But that still won't answer the question of: What happened to the bullet that hit Connally?

For conspiracy advocates, it always seems to be:

So many wounds .... So few bullets.

2 hours ago, Matthew Koch said:

David, do you have a copy of Mrs Newman's interview on Tv where she describes hearing separate gun shots and separate reactions for Connally and Kennedy which corroborates Mrs Connally's account? 

Yes, I have the interview with the Newmans (below). But Gayle's interview certainly doesn't destroy the SBT. It's a case of her merely not being aware of the subtle and very quick INITIAL involuntary reactions that were being exhibited by John Connally. I wouldn't have expected anyone watching the motorcade that day to notice all of these things that occurred to Governor Connally in a matter of a few milliseconds in real time.

4 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

David, you're correct that Landis has never mentioned this crucial evidentiary detail until now. I suppose whether one believes his reasons for doing so will color one's opinions of the validity of his statements now.

Yes, indeed so.

I, myself, find it nearly impossible to believe Mr. Landis' story about finding a bullet "resting on the top of the back of the seat" (which is a quote from the 9/9/2023 Vanity Fair article by James Robenalt.

How on Earth could a whole bullet have managed to have been located in that odd position on 11/22/63? "Resting on the top of the back of the seat"? Without Clint Hill ever noticing it or disturbing it, even though Hill was clinging to the back of the car all the way to Parkland? Highly doubtful.

And even more importantly, why wouldn't Agent Landis have told someone else in authority (anyone else!) that he had picked up a bullet and moved it to President Kennedy's stretcher?

It makes no sense whatsoever for Landis to have remained totally silent about finding (and moving) such a bullet in the limo on November 22.

Did Mr. Landis think that the details about where and how the bullet was first found weren't important details at all, and therefore he felt he didn't even need to tell the Chief of the Secret Service or the FBI or anybody in Trauma Room No. 1 at Parkland about his discovery at all?

Such a mindset and behavior for a Secret Service agent is utterly ridiculous---and most certainly unbelievable.

Plus....

If Mr. Landis' bullet story is to be believed, we would then have to believe that the bullet he placed on JFK's stretcher was either never noticed by anyone else in the very busy Trauma Room No. 1, or the bullet was deliberately deep-sixed and disposed of, or the bullet was moved to yet another stretcher in the hospital (Governor Connally's).

Each of the above choices, in my opinion, also resides in the category marked "unbelievable".

Below is a portion of what Special Agent Paul Landis said in this extremely detailed Secret Service report that he wrote in late November 1963. Here's what Landis said he found "on the back seat" of the Presidential limo at Parkland:

"By this time someone was lifting the President's body out of the right side of the car. Agent Hill helped Mrs. Kennedy out of the car, and I followed. Mrs. Kennedy's purse and hat and a cigarette lighter were on the back seat. I picked these three items up as I walked through the car and followed Mrs. Kennedy into the hospital."

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http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2023/06/paul-landis.html

"The 'bracketing' of when the SBT bullet struck the two victims in the limousine, in fact, only further makes me think more highly of the Warren Commission and its detailed study of the assassination.

The WC and FBI did very detailed angle measurements in May '64, via a surveyor and "thru-the-Oswald-rifle-scope" determinations from the Sniper's Nest. And it was determined (as best as could be determined, circa 1964) that both victims were generally lined up in the limo to receive the "SBT" bullet from approx. Z210 through approx. Z225.

Conspiracy theorists scoff at this "bracketing", saying it can't be right. But those CTers are attempting to place an EXACTITUDE on the event that can't really be placed there. Some things MUST be estimated to a degree....and the WC did that. And did a damn good job at it too. Because "Z210-Z225" certainly encompasses the now-widely-accepted SBT Z-Frame of Z224 (a frame I fully endorse for many, many reasons).

In other words, the WC got it perfectly correct DECADES prior to the digital Z-Film copies fully backing up their findings of a SBT hit somewhere between Z210 and Z225. So what's the big gripe, is my question? The Warren Commission GOT IT RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE. Conspiracists just don't wish to accept the Occam's-like SBT scenario of one bullet transiting both victims.

Instead, conspiracy advocates would rather rely on pure guesswork, involving multiple disappearing bullets and an SBT-like alignment of wounds on two men (created by two or three gunmen!) that would make David Copperfield proud." -- DVP; April 8, 2007

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http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/index.html#Single-Bullet-Theory

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DVP NOTE --- To fill in a gap regarding John Connally, whose remarks were not heard in the above video, here's a newspaper clipping explaining just what it was that Connally forgot on 11/22/71:

1955 film....

http://classic--movies.blogspot.com/2011/07/seven-days-in-may.html

30 minutes ago, Cory Santos said:

David, do you have any video of the 1963 November Chicago trip? News casts, etc.    

Wish I did. But I don't.

http://jfk-press-conferences.blogspot.com/2012/06/press-conference-16-august-30-1961.html

Checked.....and mine is A-OK. Thanks for the reminder.

8 minutes ago, Mike Aitken said:

 I see the investigation as a team effort and we will all be winners if we manage to untangle this whole thing.

IMO, though, the JFK case has already been "untangled". It was untangled (for the most part) way back in 1964 when the Warren Commission first investigated the case. (I.E., the evidence clearly points to Oswald as the lone assassin.)

Naturally, all of the conspiracy theorists think I'm totally nuts for uttering such a statement about the WC and Oswald. But that's how I feel about it nonetheless, and there's been nothing coming from the "Conspiracy" camp that has even remotely nudged me into changing my opinion about that.

2 hours ago, Mervyn Hagger said:

Why is this fairy story about the magic bullet now being rehashed on this thread as well?

Because it's so much fun seeing the CTers here at this forum go into their Denial Mode whenever the subject of the SBT comes up.

How the CTers of this planet manage to sidestep the logic of the SBT is beyond my capacity to understand. But nearly 100% of them have been doing it now for pert-near sixty years. Very strange indeed.

2 hours ago, Mervyn Hagger said:

Tell us how and why you came to build your vast library in support of the official government view of life as it concerns the Kennedy brothers?

Funny you should ask about that. It's an interesting story indeed.....

As a young lad collecting Topps Baseball Cards in eastern Indiana in the year 1972, I was approached one day by a man who introduced himself as a Mr. Arlen Specter. I didn't know at that time who he was, but he asked me to sit down with him in front of the Kresge's store in Richmond's Gateway Shopping Center and he then proceeded to tell me a fascinating story. It was all about this "theory" he had concerning some kind of a "Bullet" that supposedly went through two different gunshot victims during an attempted murder somewhere in the state of....uh....Texas, I think it was.

Mr. Specter then told me to "spread the word" far and wide about this "SBT" nonsense. He said that something he called "The Internet" was going to be in everybody's home in about 20 or 25 more years, and when I grew up, he wanted me (of all people) to start up all kinds of "blogs" (whatever the hell those are) (????). And he wanted these "blog" things to all focus attention on JFK and this "SBT" thing he kept yammering about.

I didn't know what to think. Frankly, this Specter guy sounded like a nut. But he brainwashed me thoroughly (of course), so what could I do? I had no choice but to do as he said. And so, 35 years later, in August of 2007, I started my career as an Official JFK Assassination Disinformation Agent.*

* I had also spent the previous four years [2003-2007] as an ADA (Apprentice Disinfo Agent), mainly at Debra Conway's JFK Lancer forum.

It's not a very fun job (~sigh~), but I can't complain about the salary. (Plus the regular checks from the Arlen Specter Disinfo Estate keep coming in every month too. So that's another perk.)

24 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

There is some debate as to the angle the bullet travelled through JFK's neck, whether that angle was downwards or even slightly upwards as the HSCA suggested. Some time back you posted a link to a page on your website where you discuss why you think the HSCA might have been wrong to think the bullet was moving slightly upwards as it passed through JFK's neck. Can you post that link here again?

http://DVP's JFK Archives / The Location Of JFK's Back Wound

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

But we know from the documented bullet hole in the rear of JBC's rear shirt, that the bullet was not tumbling when it struck JBC. 

Ergo, if we believe Lattimer, the bullet that struck JBC must not have passed through JFK's throat first. 

Which leaves the SBT where?  Another koo-koo nutball theory?

There are many different reasons why the Single-Bullet Theory should be accepted as being true (all discussed here).

The "tumbling bullet" isn't the be-all/end-all deciding factor for the SBT's validity. Because even if the bullet—Commission Exhibit No. 399—wasn't tumbling at all as it entered the upper back of Governor Connally in Dealey Plaza, the SBT is still most certainly the most reasonable solution.

In fact, with or without any "tumbling", the SBT is the only truly reasonable and sensible solution that explains the initial wounding of JFK and all of Connally's wounds.

Here are a few SBT-related points I've made in the past that deserve a replay every now and then:

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"Let me ask the following question one more time (I've made this inquiry in the past as well, without receiving any satisfactory answer from any anti-SBT conspiracy theorist):

If the animation project authored by Dale K. Myers is dead wrong in its depiction of the Single-Bullet Theory as being a one-bullet scenario that is not only POSSIBLE, but very, very likely a rock-solid FACT in all respects, then I want to know HOW in this wide world of ours it would have been even remotely possible for Dale Myers to have stuck THAT CLOSE TO THE REAL EVIDENCE in the case and to have produced a BOGUS animation (as CTers believe he has done) that comes so incredibly close to what a true and NON-BOGUS animation would have looked like?

To clarify what I mean by that --- The depiction of the victims (JFK and Connally) in Myers' animation (along with the general configuration of the limo and of Dealey Plaza and of the TSBD and of Elm Street, etc.) are certainly NOT so far "out of whack" that any CTer can look at it and say this:

"Myers is full of dooky here! He doesn't have this model even CLOSE to being accurate in any way!"

So, even if the anti-SBT crowd wants to nitpick about the size of John Connally's head in Dale's 3D model, or about the height of the limo's crossbar seen in the animation.....those same CTers haven't a leg to stand on when it comes to the big-ticket question that no conspiracist has EVER been able to reconcile--and that question is:

If the SBT is only a wet dream of "Warren Commission shills" (et al), then how in the world did multiple gunmen firing multiple bullets (usually at least THREE missiles, per CTer accounts) into the bodies of two victims manage to MIMIC A PERFECT (or damn near perfect-looking) SINGLE-BULLET EVENT with those multiple bullets?

I'm still waiting for a single SBT-hating conspiracy theorist to logically and believably answer the above question.

In short, the Single-Bullet Theory makes a whole bunch of (common) sense. Especially when placed up against ANY alternate scenario that might be used to try and knock it down."

-- DVP; April 18, 2008

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"And isn't it amazing that there just happened to be another bullet hole on the opposite side of JFK's body to meet the "SBT" needs of Mr. Specter, et al?

Has any conspiracy theorist in history ever made this basic observation?....

Boy, those assassins were sure a bunch of lucky sons of bitches when the guy who shot JFK in the throat from the front managed to hit Kennedy in exactly the right spot on his body so that (later on) the official investigators could utilize that entry wound in the throat as the point of exit for the SBT bullet. And then the multiple assassins got even luckier when the upper-back bullet and the bullet that entered the throat both decided not to exit the body and then both of those bullets vanished into puffs of smoke before either of those bullets (which obviously were still inside JFK's body when he was inside Trauma Room No. 1 at Parkland Hospital) could be seen by any non-conspirator.

Can anyone truly believe that such incredible good fortune could possibly have existed amongst the (alleged) multiple shooters who were (allegedly) firing bullets at President Kennedy on 11/22/63?

(And yet CTers have the gall to tell me that I am the one who believes in "Magic Bullets". Oy vey!)"

-- DVP; July 1, 2018

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"[Many conspiracy theorists] require absolute perfect to-the-millimeter perfection in a Single-Bullet Theory re-creation before [they'll] even begin to consider it valid. But, realistically, it's just not reasonable to expect an event like this to be able to be re-created right down to the last inch.

In my opinion, however, CE903 comes very close to SBT perfection (even though I realize that the 17.72-degree angle isn't exactly right, since it's an angle for the equivalent of Z217.5 and not what I believe is the true SBT Z-Film frame of Z224).

So, if you want to say I "want it both ways", okay. But the Z217.5 angle seen in CE903 is so incredibly close to being "perfect", why would I quibble with it and raise hell with Mr. Specter & Company (especially since I fully realize that complete and total "perfection" is not a reasonable expectation)?"

-- DVP; July 3, 2018

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"Another line of reasoning that could be utilized by LNers is this one:

After Bullet CE399 exited JFK's throat, it DID NOT tumble into John Connally's back at all, and the reason for the elongated (15 mm.) size of Connally's back wound was due merely to a tangential strike, which is exactly the same explanation given by the Warren Commission on page 86 of its Final Report to explain the 15-millimeter size of the entrance wound in Kennedy's head.

Hence, there was also a very small wound of exit in Kennedy's throat--which, given the "tangential strike" explanation for Connally's back wound, would "solve" another supposed problem that conspiracists often bring up -- i.e., Why did the bullet suddenly start to tumble into Connally's back even though it left a nice round wound in Kennedy's throat, which is more indicative of a NON-tumbling bullet that it is a tumbling missile?

The above scenario is, however, in conflict with the majority of Dr. Lattimer's tests, which are tests that resulted in 5 out of 6 bullets that tumbled into the Connally target after having gone through a simulated Kennedy neck.

But, anyway, it's some food for "Tumbling vs. Tangential" thought, I think."

-- DVP; October 22, 2012
 

22 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

How about the theory, of long-standing, that the bullet that passed through JFK's neck then tumbled, and hit JBC sideways, leaving a large scar?

I provide my "tumbling" thoughts here:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2016/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1147.html

14 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

What rubbish.

This forum has commentaries by such luminaries as James DiEugenio and Larry Hancock.

Quality before quantity.

Regardless of who the "luminaries" are that spout the nonsensical JFK conspiracy theories that Jonathan Cohen and I have outlined in our posts above, the theories are still going to be nonsensical (and thoroughly embarrassing).

Just now, W. Niederhut said:

This forum has commentaries by such luminaries as James DiEugenio...

Quality before quantity.

1 hour ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

This forum already borders, if not crosses well into, laughing stock territory due to its embrace of preposterous nonsense such as Lee Oswald doppelgangers, the Three Tramps being different people than their arrest records confirm they are, every film and photo taken in Dealey Plaza having been altered, and so on. It's really a shame.

Indeed, Jonathan. Plus there's the continual embarrassment that about 90% (perhaps even more) of the conspiracy theorists here at the EF should be experiencing on a daily basis when they continue to embrace such absurd and wholly unprovable theories like these for years on end:

1. The second-floor Baker/Truly/Oswald encounter never even happened at all.

2. Lee Oswald didn't carry any large-ish paper bag at all into the Book Depository on 11/22/63.

3. Lee Oswald never ordered any rifle at all from Klein's Sporting Goods and never once even touched Carcano Rifle No. C2766.

4. Lee Oswald never even went to the Cuban and Russian embassies in Mexico City at all in September of 1963.

5. Ruth Paine was up to her neck in conspiracy and patsy-planting in the weeks prior to Nov. 22nd.

6. Captain Fritz and other DPD officers were part of a pre-arranged plot on 11/24/63 which allowed Jack Ruby to have easy access to the City Hall basement in order to kill Lee Oswald.

....And so many more embarrassing theories that have been featured over and over again on this forum's pages.