David Von Pein

3 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

Who had the power and ability to develop a plan of this magnitude and complexity, execute it, and cover it up? 

I think a logical question of equal importance that should be asked by everybody is this one:

WHY would any powerful group even want  to develop a plan involving such a complex mechanism of murder such as the one that has been theorized by Mr. David S. Lifton since 1966?

With that complex mechanism, per Mr. Lifton, including a PRE-PLANNED cloak-&-dagger "hide-the-body and alter-the-body and fake all the films and frame the designated patsy by shooting the victim from the other direction" plot.

Couldn't these professional assassins have found a much "quieter" way of ridding the world of Mr. Kennedy?

Or were the plotters/assassins only interested in being able to set the Guinness record for "Most Evidence Faked And Manufactured In One Single Day"?

Welcome back, Lance Payette!

So good to see you here again!

FYI....

Here's a radio interview I saved in 2013 featuring SS Agent Paul Landis (and SS Agent Ron Pontius also is heard):

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/Paul Landis Interview (November 23, 2013)

And here's what SS Agent Paul Landis said in his very detailed and lengthy official Secret Service report, much of which, if we're to believe what David S. Lifton has said during his November 2013 video interview, is nothing but one big lie (emphasis is DVP's):

"After we rode under the overpass I again looked at the President's car and saw Special Agent Clint Hill lieing [sic] across the trunk. He was looking back towards the Follow-up car shaking his head back and forth and gave a thumbs-down sign with his hand. ATSAIC Roberts asked if anyone got the exact time of the shooting and someone said "about 12:30 p.m."; then someone told me to get inside the car and pulled me by the arm. My sun glasses fell off and Special Agent Bennett handed them to me. By now we were on an Expressway and a few people were standing in spots along the way waving as we went by. ATSAIC Roberts was telling the other agents in the Follow-up car to cover Vice President Johnson as soon as we stopped. Sometime around 12:37 p.m. we arrived at Parkland Memorial Hospital. I immediately ran to the left rear side of the President's car, reached over and tried to help Mrs. Kennedy up by taking hold of her shoulders. She did not want to let go of President Kennedy whose head she held in her lap and she was bending over him."

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-landi.htm

1 hour ago, Vince Palamara said:

They were moving at a very high rate of speed, so everyone moved into the follow-up car. DSL has nothing.

That's right, Vince.

And here's SS Agent John Ready telling us that very thing about getting inside the SS follow-up car (emphasis is mine):

"I left the follow-up car in the direction of the President's car but was recalled by ATSAIC Emory Roberts as the cars increased their speeds. I got back on the car and seated myself beside Mr. Roberts in the right front seat."

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-ready.htm

......

On 12/12/2022 at 3:58 AM, Pat Speer said:

So, in short, it's a fake paper. 

No, it's not. On August 26, 2020, I downloaded that same "Assassinate Kennedy" version of the 11/22/63 L.A. Times from Newspapers.com (seen below). And I don't think for a minute that Newspapers.com is in the habit of putting "fake" papers on their website. Do you?

And, BTW, the "Morning" designation for this LA Times edition would be correct, because Kennedy was shot (and died) in the "morning" (L.A. time). It was 10:30 AM Pacific Time when JFK was shot and 11:33 AM L.A. time when Kennedy was pronounced officially dead.

Click (twice) to enlarge to 7258px:

5 hours ago, Adam Johnson said:

If any of you think that foot belongs to Clint Hill, my god! It is most [likely] the [president's]. 

It's almost certainly Clint Hill's foot. The foot is in just about the exact same spot in all of the photos presented above. And in at least 2 of those pics, we can see without doubt that Hill has his foot dangling over the side of the car, in just about the same spot (and angle) as in the controversial Miller photo. So what are the odds?

And here's the Miller photo, which Lifton said shows Ready's foot:

8 hours ago, David Andrews said:

Ah, no.  The remarks seem to take place in the context of dismissing the Greer-shot-JFK trope. 

You're wrong. The remarks mean exactly the opposite---i.e., Lifton (at least as of 2013) thought the driver shot Kennedy. Just read Pat Speer's post from early this morning---here.

Thanks for the update, Steven. And also: thanks for providing us with the information about the passing of Mr. Lifton. If it weren't for your post on December 6th at 9:22 PM EST, evidently nobody on Earth (other than David's immediate family members) would have any idea that David had passed away. Because there apparently hasn't been any news about it on any wire or major news network at all---even after six days. That seems very strange to me.

I remember when my favorite attorney (and JFK "expert"), Vincent Bugliosi, died in June of 2015, I was quite surprised when news of his passing didn't come through for about two full days. I thought that was a lengthy delay at that time. But now we've got an "official news" delay that's three times that long. Quite odd.

12 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Ironically, considering it's a webpage which has helped accelerate the death of the printed page, Wiki doesn't recognize edits without links to printed material, or the websites of prominent news organizations. 

I don't remember who, but at one point someone went through and added some links to my website in the articles on the single-bullet theory. They were all removed, while at the same time links to Bugliosi's book, which said things that were provably untrue, remained. 

Several years ago, I added some links to my blogs to some of the JFK-related Wikipedia pages, but after a day or two Wiki removed every one of them. I was told by somebody there at Wiki that they don't accept any links from anyone's "blogs". You can link to a non-blog website, but a "blog" cannot be linked to at Wiki (at least as of circa 2010). Which, IMO, is a bit unfair and shortsighted on Wikipedia's behalf.

Thank you, Jamey.

3 hours ago, Steven Kossor said:

Someone tampered with the Wikipedia entry about David that I edited with the consent of his next-of-kin a few days after his death, so I restored the edited content just now.

But apparently your edits, Steven, were removed a second time today (Dec. 11 @ 16:41 UTC), because the Wiki page is still showing David L. to be alive as of this post at 3:20 PM EST on Dec. 11.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Lifton

So it would seem, Steven, as if your edits aren't going to stay on DSL's page until Wikipedia can confirm (in their minds) David's death via some type of "official" source. Or maybe they even require two or three "official" sources. I have no idea.

6 hours ago, Adam Johnson said:

Did I say earlier that DVP your [sic] a terrible human being in my opinion.

What have I said in this thread that makes me a "terrible human being", Adam?

I'm allowed to have an opinion about the JFK case (and Mr. Lifton's theories) too, you know.

And, like Pat Speer, I have intentionally avoided saying anything of a derogatory nature about Mr. Lifton in the "David Lifton Has Died" thread. I feel that that thread should not be used to bash David in any way. In fact, I said some nice things about DSL in that thread, HERE.

Gerry Down,

I've got a page on "The Spacing Of The Gunshots" on my website/blog in which I talk about the "Evenly Spaced" witnesses. It's not exactly definitive on the subject, but it might help you a little bit:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com / The Spacing Of The Gunshots Fired In Dealey Plaza

7 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

As far as Greer, my understanding is that Lifton suspected Greer was not the driver. Now I don't recall who he thought was actually driving. And I don't recall how he explained Greer's face in the Towner photo, etc. 

OK. Thanks, Pat.

I'm pretty sure Lifton mentions something about Paul Landis driving the limo at some point on 11/22.

1 hour ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

I believe you need like a published source (or alike) or Wiki won't accept.

Oh yes. I know (and realize) that fact.

And in a way, that makes this situation even more bizarre. Because after Kossor's edits to DSL's Wiki page on Dec. 8th, it probably means that somebody at Wikipedia was searching (somewhere) for a "published source" in order to confirm Kossor's edits. And they still haven't found one---after several days. Very odd, IMO.

And evidently nobody else in the world (whether it be Wikipedia employees or otherwise) has attempted to update DSL's Wiki page either (since Steve Kossor did it on Dec. 8). And that's quite odd too (IMO).

A further note on this (just "for the record")....

Even when Mr. Lifton's death is confirmed by Wikipedia (and I think it will be), I still think this multi-day delay in finding any kind of "published source" to confirm David's demise is mighty strange.

For gosh sakes, if a third-string catcher who played only one game for the Pittsburgh Pirates in 1965 passes away, Wikipedia has that guy's page updated within 24 hours. (And, yes, even that guy would have a Wiki page; every player who's ever played even one game in the Major Leagues has his own Wiki page.)

37 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

My understanding is that David suspected [the] driver of the limo shot JFK, and that Connally shot the driver, and that Ready raced up to the limo, leading Connally to think they were gonna kill him too... Thus, the fight between Ready and Connally.

The evidence for any of this is, of course, mighty thin. But it would explain an early article describing a fight in the limo. And would explain the rumors of a dead SS agent. And it would explain Connally's back wound. 

Oh my! This just keeps getting better and better (i.e., goofier & goofier).

So does that mean that GREER is the dead SS agent? (Because, Pat, you now know that Lifton DID believe a SS agent WAS killed, and his body was secretly stashed on AF1 and disguised as "Lyndon's Luggage".)

But if Greer was shot dead by John Connally, I wonder who it was who gave this testimony in front of the Warren Commission?

But I guess that wasn't a problem for a creative thinker like David Lifton. He probably thinks "the plot" provided for such a contingency, and a "Greer Double" popped up out of the woodwork to testify instead of the real Bill Greer.

Or does Lifton think it was Paul Landis who was killed in the limo? Or maybe John Ready? Or perhaps Roy Kellerman? Any idea, Pat?

If we get any more people crowding into that limo, we're going to need a shoehorn to wedge them all in.

Oh, BTW, Pat, did Lifton ever tell you if Connally supposedly shot William Greer with the gun that some CTers have told me Connally would sometimes carry in an ankle holster?

BTW / FWIW:

The Wikipedia Watch:

As of now (2:00 AM EST on Dec. 11), five days after Steven Kossor announced David Lifton's death at this forum, DSL's Wiki page is still saying that David is still with us.

Obviously, the people at Wikipedia who have to "confirm" everything that is added to every Wiki page, cannot confirm Mr. Lifton's passing beyond just the word of Steven Kossor (who is the one who edited DSL's Wiki page on Dec. 8, only to have Wiki override Kossor's death notice just one day later, on December 9).

I wonder why Wiki can't confirm (in a period of three days now) Kossor's changes to DSL's Wiki page? Seems very odd to me.

Question for Steven Kossor:

Have you tried to re-edit David's Wiki page a second time yet, to add back in the things you already added on Dec. 8th? And have you had any contact with the Wiki people who decided to override your original edits one day after you created them?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Lifton

1 hour ago, David Andrews said:

I listened to the 14 videos while doing other tasks.  At one or two points, Lifton mentions that another SS agent, and not Greer, drove the limo "from Dealey to Parkland."  Did anyone better catch how that supposedly went down?

Yeah, that's another one of the too-numerous-to-count crackpot theories proposed by Mr. Lifton in his 2013 video interview series.

Lifton wants us to take seriously the idea that SS agent Paul Landis ran from the SS follow-up car and took the place of Bill Greer as the driver of the SS-100-X limousine immediately after JFK was shot, and that it was Landis (and not Greer) who actually drove the limo most of the way from Dealey Plaza to Parkland Hospital.

The question would then be: Why in heaven's name would there be a need to change limo drivers, especially at that critical point in time when every second counts in trying to get the wounded President to a hospital in an attempt to save his life? It makes no sense at all.

Another of Lifton's dozens of unprovable make-believe cloak-and-dagger episodes is the one about how the wounded JFK was supposed to be transferred to an ambulance at the Trade Mart. Lifton says this transfer to the ambulance was going to be done in order to get JFK's body away from Jackie and other members of the Kennedy party. But this "ambulance" part of the plot didn't go off as planned (although I don't think Lifton, in his 2013 video interview, ever explains why it didn't).

Also: Lifton thinks Connally was shot THREE separate times (by Agent Ready, of course).

And: At the very beginning of Part 4 of Lifton's 14-part interview (see my full playlist below), we hear the interviewer say: "So the original plan was not to have the driver shoot the President...", which (I guess) means that Lifton turned into a "Greer Shot Kennedy" CTer. It sure sounds that way to me, based on the interviewer's remark at the start of Part 4.

54 minutes ago, Jamey Flanagan said:

...on Night Fright a few years back I know he [Lifton] said that a lady came forward saying she was giving LHO change for a dollar for the Coke machine at the time of the shooting. But then he says more recently that LHO is in the window firing blanks. So did he come to disbelieve that lady or what over the years? Who knows?

You're mixing up your conspiracy theorists. The "Giving Change To Oswald" theory belongs to Robert Groden, not David Lifton.

From a 2016 discussion:

For more about Lifton's "Oswald And The Fishing Pole" story, CLICK HERE.

.........

1 hour ago, Matthew Koch said:

I'm going to wait to see all of the evidence before I pass judgement.

I can't wait to see the evidence in "Final Charade" that will back up (and prove) this quote of David Lifton's:

"He [John Connally] got shot as a result of this fight in the car [with Secret Service agent John Ready]." -- David S. Lifton; November 2013

16 minutes ago, Vince Palamara said:

Dave- I am stunned that Lifton espoused most of these things!

I'm not too stunned really. I say that mainly because of all of the crazy nonsense that David Lifton has been promoting for many years now---and a lot of it right on this very forum. Just check out my battles with him, which go back to 2011 (many of them which started here at the EF):

Another kooky idea Lifton had is that UPI's Merriman Smith knew about the Dealey Plaza shooting in advance, and that Smith was part of a post-assassination cover-up.