David Von Pein

27 minutes ago, Denis Morissette said:

How does this [smear campaign against Vincent T. Bugliosi] help with the JFK assassination case?

It doesn't (of course).

But for CTers in the last few years, it's been open season on Bugliosi with respect to everything Vince ever did in his 80 years of life, despite the fact that absolutely none of the incessant attacks on VB weakens or refutes any of the evidence that pours forth from Vincent's "Reclaiming History".

CTers love engaging in the same type of smear campaigns against Gerald Posner too. But they failed there too, because Posner's "Case Closed" will forever be a great evidence-based book on the JFK case---even with the CTer smear campaigns aimed at the book's author forever in place.

1 hour ago, Tom Gram said:

You don’t see the sarcasm? 

Not really, no.

14 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Brandle’s letter to Waldman is freaking hilarious - lavishing sarcastic praise on Klein’s for not shipping a rifle to a pseudonym, and asking Waldman for a description of the procedures they use to prevent shipping a rifle to the wrong person. Trolling in the pre-internet days at its finest.

What makes you think Brandle's letter was "hilarious" and "sarcastic" and an example of "trolling"?

I don't see any of those traits residing in this letter at all.

What parts of the (incomplete)* letter presented on that Ferrell page do you think are so "freaking hilarious".  (Just curious.)

* Edit --- I now see that the letter from Brandle is not incomplete. The pages are merely out of order on the Ferrell website. Page 2 is shown before page 1 for some reason.

1 hour ago, Mark Ulrik said:

What happened in Dallas: Notes by HSCA investigator Gaeton Fonzi from his interview with Silvio Odio, January 16,
1976, staff files, HSCA, RIF: 180–10001–10132, NARA.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=60438

Thanks for the info, Mark.

Now I know where Shenon got all the Odio quotes. They're from that 1976 interview with Fonzi.

5 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

If I recall, Liebeler's misbehavior was reported in Shenon's pro-WC book. It's not just something some CT's made up. 

Yes, you're correct, Pat.

The incident involving Wesley Liebeler allegedly attempting to seduce Sylvia Odio is, indeed, mentioned in Philip Shenon's 2013 book, "A Cruel And Shocking Act", pages 416-418.

I, therefore, stand corrected. And I officially apologize to James DiEugenio for my previous rather snippy remark (even though he has me on ignore and probably won't see this post).

I'm curious about something, though, Pat. Does Shenon's book contain any source notes at all? I don't own the book myself, but I was able to read pgs. 416-418 for free at Amazon (a general search for "Odio" while using the "Look Inside" feature enabled me to see those pages), but there are none of the little numbers within the text to indicate any source notes at all. The Table of Contents shows that there are 36 pages of "Notes", however.

The reason I ask is because I'm wondering where Shenon got the direct quotes that he attributes to Sylvia Odio on pages 416 to 418? I suppose Shenon himself must have interviewed Odio, right? (She would have been about 75 or 76 years old when Shenon was writing his book.)

Do you have Shenon's book, Pat? If so, can you check to see if there are any Source Notes connected with those many quotes attributed to Odio on pgs. 416-418? I'm just curious as to the specific source of the quotes. *

* EDIT --- Mark Ulrik, in this later post of his, provided the answer to my question regarding the source for the Sylvia Odio quotes that appear in Philip Shenon's book. Shenon got them from this January 1976 interview with Odio, which was conducted by Gaeton Fonzi. Thank you for the link, Mark. **

** EDIT #2 --- And if I had searched the Shenon/Amazon page for "Page 416" sooner, I could have figured out the Fonzi source a lot quicker, because right there it is:

Addendum....

An even more interesting tidbit of information concerning Warren Commission Assistant Counsel Wesley J. Liebeler (and one that I had not heard about prior to today) is the info about how Liebeler also (allegedly) tried to seduce Marina Oswald (Shenon, pg. 418 ; see the book excerpt pictured below).

Addendum #2....

Related audio with Wesley Liebeler (but this isn't "related" to any alleged sexual advances made by Liebeler; this 1966 audio features Liebeler explaining why he thinks Lee Harvey Oswald did not visit Sylvia Odio's apartment in late September of 1963):

41 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

[Sylvia Odio] also said that after Liebeler told her that, he invited her up to his hotel room and tried to seduce her.

Well, in his defense, she was a pretty good looking girl in those days.

But that tells you a lot also: trying to put the make on one of the very best witnesses you had.

Just goes to show that Mr. DiEugenio is likely to believe almost anything.

3 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Anything about her [Julia Postal] breaking down, crying in her initial questioning in your files?

Yes. But it's not in Postal's "initial questioning". According to the conspiracy theorist (Rich Pope) I talked to at this forum in February of 2019, Julia Postal apparently broke down while being interviewed by researcher Jones Harris at some point (years perhaps?) after 11/22/63.

At the link below, I archived my portions of that 2019 EF discussion at my site (along with the posts that I was directly responding to.....and please keep in mind that this was in Feb. of 2019, which was at a time when copying a person's already-on-the-Internet posts at this fully public forum was not considered a crime worthy of tarring-&-feathering or a violation of EF Forum rules). 😇

And I'm glad I did archive this particular discussion (entitled "Never A Phone Call"), because I notice it's a forum thread that has since been completely deleted from the EF database. And I think it was deleted because the person who started the thread was Rich Pope, and he evidently got booted from the forum shortly thereafter. And the normal routine back at that time (early 2019) was, for some reason, to totally delete the whole thread if the thread-starter later was banned from the forum. The same "deletion" policy was also in effect when Jim DiEugenio got booted temporarily in circa 2013 or so, causing me to have several dead DiEugenio-started threads at my site after I linked to them over there. I'm glad that that policy regarding banned members and their past posts has since changed.

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http://jfk-archives/2019/02/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1307

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Excerpts from two above-linked discussions....

RICH POPE SAID:
Researcher Jones Harris interviewed Ms. Postal and asked her if she had in fact sold a ticket to Oswald, she burst into tears and left the room. A short time later, Harris again asked Postal if she had in fact sold a ticket to Oswald and got the same response. From Postal's refusal to answer this question and her reaction being the same, Harris believes that Postal did in fact sell Oswald a theater ticket but was forced to lie to protect her own life.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Then Mr. Jones Harris would have had no choice but to call Johnny Brewer a li@r as well, because Brewer testified this way in 1964:

JOHNNY BREWER -- "He [Oswald] walked into the Texas Theatre and I walked up to the theatre, to the box office and asked Mrs. Postal if she sold a ticket to a man who was wearing a brown shirt, and she said no, she hadn't."

So, unless Johnny Brewer was lying, it means that Julia Postal had told Brewer immediately after Oswald entered the Texas Theater on 11/22/63 that the person in question in the brown shirt had not purchased a ticket.

Plus, there is Mrs. Postal's 12/4/63 affidavit, in which Postal says:

"I called the Police Department. .... The officer asked me if the man bought a ticket, and I told him no, he did not."

I suppose conspiracy believers will now gripe because Mrs. Postal didn't fill out her affidavit until December 4th, twelve days after the assassination.

But, as I mentioned earlier, in order for Postal to be lying about the "selling Oswald a ticket" subject, we'd have to believe that John Brewer ALSO decided to join the large brigade of li@rs that CTers think were connected with this murder case too.

Just how much of this constant "li@r, li@r" talk from the conspiracy theorists is a reasonable person supposed to tolerate before fighting back with a little common sense?




ADAM JOHNSON SAID:
Hi David,

All of your above post is sound and reasonable....

Now play detective for a minute ..... What logical reason would explain why Postal burst into tears not once but twice when asked "did you sell Oswald a ticket"?

Simple question, easy Yes or No answer.....why then does she break down?????

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I can't answer that question. Nobody can (except Julia herself). I have no idea why she would burst into tears at that moment. But I'd sure like to hear a tape recording of that particular conversation between Jones Harris and Julia Postal, in order to confirm that she "broke down" at the exact time during the interview when Harris apparently said she did.

Perhaps she was merely distraught and upset about the events of the entire day (e.g., the President being murdered plus the murder of a police officer who previously had worked at the Texas Theater). Perhaps Mrs. Postal was a person who couldn't help breaking down whenever the events of 11/22/63 were brought up. I don't know.


ADAM JOHNSON SAID:
Perhaps when he (Oswald) gets dragged out, she realizes she did sell that man a ticket, but it's too late to change her story.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But why would she feel it was "too late" to tell the truth about it? If she really had sold Oswald a ticket and she merely made an honest mistake when she told Johnny Brewer (and the police on the telephone) that she hadn't sold him one, why would she necessarily feel obligated to stick to her first (incorrect) story? That doesn't make sense to me.

Also....

Regardless of whether Julia Postal sold Lee Harvey Oswald a movie ticket on November 22nd or not, the fact will remain (for all time) that the gun that Oswald carried into that movie theater that day was proven to be the gun that killed Police Officer J.D. Tippit. And nothing can change that irrevocable ballistics fact.

[...]

CHUCK SCHWARTZ SAID:
Why did LHO, after supposedly killing the President of the United States and a Dallas Police Officer, decide to take in a movie (and not pay for the movie ticket)?

I think his CIA handler told him to go [to] the Texas Theater and then the handler (probably DAP [David Atlee Phillips]) told Dulles where the killer / patsy was located and to have the police arrest him.

Working with Dulles was Charles Cabell (Dulles and Cabell were both fired by JFK for the Bay of Pigs fiasco), whose brother [was] Earle Cabell, the then Mayor of Dallas. It was Earle who told the Dallas Chief of Police to go get the killer -- he is in the theatre.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Good job, Chuck. You have managed to completely ignore the manner in which the police actually became aware of Lee Harvey Oswald's whereabouts in the Texas Theater, and instead you've decided it would be a good idea to just invent a bunch of crap about Dulles, Cabell, and that omnipresent "CIA handler".

Fantasy is a lot more intriguing than Julia Postal and Johnny Brewer, isn't it?

David Von Pein
February 26-27, 2016

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

Wasn't Ms. Postal a teenage girl who broke down crying was it 2 or 3 times under initial questioning, unable to answer? How believable are her coached later responses? 

Julia Postal was not a teenager. Not even close. She was 39 years old (click to enlarge her 12/4/63 affidavit seen below).

And, of course, you have proof that Mrs. Postal's "later responses" were, in fact, the result of "coaching", right Ron? Otherwise, why would you say what you just said above? I look forward to seeing that proof. Thanks, Ron.

40 minutes ago, Karl Hilliard said:

Also concerning the shot dead detective mentioned at the intro of the KBOX recording could have been Tippit but no description of his assailant is given/and or repeated...Why not if it was known?

As I've said before (and, yes, it's just speculation), but KBOX (or another station) might have broadcast more info about the Oak Cliff shooting prior to 1:35. We just don't know, because the pre-1:35 KBOX recordings have never been circulated.

When it comes to the topic of which of the Dallas-area radio stations Johnny Brewer was listening to on 11/22/63, as I said in this 2019 EF discussion, we just do not know for certain which station he was listening to that day. And that means that there are multiple other radio stations that are still candidates, and that includes KBOX, which (as I pointed out in the 2019 thread) is a station that reported this bulletin on the air at 1:35 PM CST: "We also have one Dallas detective reported dead on arrival at Parkland Hospital."

Now, if that bulletin is referring to J.D. Tippit's death (and I would bet it is, despite the fact they got the name of the hospital wrong), it means a radio station in Dallas was reporting on the shooting of a policeman prior to the time Brewer saw Oswald lurking in his store window. And it's quite possible that KBOX reported on the Oak Cliff shooting sometime before that 1:35 bulletin as well. But I can't confirm it (and neither could Dale Myers), because our copies of the KBOX coverage doesn't begin until 1:35 PM.

So rather than come out and accuse Johnny Brewer of lying his head off (as it seems so many conspiracists are willing and eager to do), I choose to first acknowledge the fact that there are most definitely other possible avenues to travel down when it comes to the subject of "Brewer And The Radio Stations". Another of those avenues is this one below (culled from the 2019 discussion):

"I'm certainly willing to accept the possibility that Johnny Brewer might have gotten mixed up concerning the precise time when he first heard the news about a police officer being shot in Oak Cliff. Perhaps he did hear that news a little later in the day. But also keep in mind the 1:35 PM KBOX report about the DOA "detective" (which is a remarkably speedy bulletin, because KBOX not only was reporting on the wounding of a police officer, they were already reporting on the death of that policeman as early as 1:35), which tends to indicate that at least one Dallas-area radio station was reporting the officer's shooting at a time which would be perfectly consistent with Johnny Brewer's account of only seeing Oswald after hearing about the policeman's shooting on the radio.

The KBOX audio footage I provided does not, however, give the necessary detail about the shooting taking place in Oak Cliff, but, as I mentioned earlier, it's possible that such an "Oak Cliff" detail was mentioned in an earlier KBOX bulletin, which preceded the point in time when my truncated copy of the coverage begins.

In any event, even if Brewer didn't hear any pre-1:36 PM radio bulletin concerning the Tippit shooting, it's still quite clear to me from the weight of John Brewer's testimony and statements over the years that Brewer was suspicious of Lee Harvey Oswald's behavior and actions shortly after 1:30 PM on 11/22/63 (such as: Oswald turning his back to the street just as the police cars went roaring by).

And if some conspiracy theorists have a desire to totally discount and deem invalid all of Mr. Brewer's testimony because of this issue of whether he really did hear a radio bulletin at the time he said he heard it, then I think those conspiracists are making a big mistake."  -- DVP; April 18, 2019

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/Johnny Brewer & The Radio Stations

2 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

Ask Von Pein what radio station broadcast the description of the man and at what time ?

Gil,

Go to the links below. The topic is covered quite extensively on these pages:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2019/04/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1317.html

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25724-first-radio-report-on-tippits-shooting/?tab=comments#comment-399074

Excerpt:

JERRY FREEMAN SAID:

Where is that "clear" bulletin? I have failed to hear it.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

That certainly doesn't mean no such bulletin existed. Go find the KBOX-Radio coverage from 1:15 PM to 1:35 PM. If you can find it, I'll bet you'd find the bulletin in question. But since it evidently wasn't preserved, all we can do is guess (and all the conspiracy theorists can do, therefore, is to pretend no such broadcast ever existed [and, hence, also call Johnny Brewer a li@r]).

17 years after his HSCA work, here's Dr. Michael Baden at the O.J. Simpson trial....

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More:

http://OJ--SIMPSON.BLOGSPOT.COM

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........

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

So yeah, Oswald could have walked out and not been noticed by his coworkers. Or, come to think of it, even been standing at the back of the steps...

Buell Frazier disagrees with you....

"To answer the question about Prayer Man: I have been looking at this all day, and I can tell you this: I 100% have no idea who that person is. I can also tell you 100% that is not Lee Harvey Oswald. First, Lee was not out there. I know that to be true. Second, for anyone who thinks Prayer Man is Lee, the individual has a much larger frame than Lee." -- Buell Wesley Frazier; March 28, 2021

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But you can always show Frazier that "Gorilla" video. After watching it, maybe Buell will then change his mind about Lee not being on the steps.

And then I can always come back with my favorite video of Oswald telling the press that he was INSIDE the Depository building at the time of the assassination, while not uttering a single word to the press (and hence, to the world) about his perfect and ironclad "I Was Really On The TSBD Steps" alibi that would have forever proven him innocent of the Presidential murder that he was about to be officially charged with.

And 'round and 'round we go.

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

What we have to go on is Hosty's note that Oswald said he went outside to watch the "P Parade".  There is no further note that says, but he was too late, the motorcade had passed.  Absent that, the only reasonable inference is that his claim is he was there when the murder happened.  Hosty's note doesn't have to be phrased to meet your preferences for that to be true.

My $0.02 (originally posted here at the EF on February 24, 2019)....

I don't think the words "Presidential Parade" came out of the mouth of Lee Harvey Oswald. Based on all of the official FINAL reports (from Fritz, Bookhout, Hosty, and Kelley), I think the words "P. Parade" that appear in the "new" Hosty note were probably HOSTY'S words and HOSTY'S interpretation of Oswald's "out with Bill Shelley" statement. Otherwise, we'd have a lot more reports (and notes) that had the word "Parade" in them.

3 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

As far as Shelley lying...well, I think he probably did. Who would want to admit that he let a man accused of killing the President leave the building, particularly in that this man quite possibly killed a Dallas cop shortly thereafter? It was a little white lie. Nope. I never saw him.

Yes, I can see your point, Pat. But, then too, no reasonable and sensible person could possibly have placed any blame or guilt on Bill Shelley's shoulders for not stopping Lee Oswald at the front door of the TSBD at 12:33 PM (assuming that Oswald DID, in fact, see Shelley out in front when LHO left the building; and I do believe Oswald probably was telling the truth about that; it's a question, then, of whether Shelley saw Oswald or not)....because Shelley didn't have any reason at all to suspect Oswald of being involved in the assassination. If Shelley did see him leaving the building, Oswald would have been (in Shelley's mind) just one of the many employees moving in or out of the building at that particular time.

3 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

If Oswald left via the front door, as claimed, how is it that no one saw him? 

But we can also ask that very same question of many of the people who were standing near the TSBD front door at about 12:31 PM who claimed they never saw the white-helmeted Marrion L. Baker enter the building either. And yet we KNOW Baker DID enter the building nonetheless.

And we could probably engage in the very same kind of "Why Didn't Anybody See This Person Do This?" speculation when it comes to various other aspects of the JFK and Tippit cases.

Here's a direct MP3 link to Vince's latest Black Op appearance....

https://www.blackopradio.com/pod/black1106.mp3

6 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

There is strong reason to believe, moreover, that Shelley was standing by the front stairs when Oswald came down from the second floor, and that he did, in fact, tell Oswald it was okay to leave. 

So that means you must think that Bill Shelley was telling some pretty big lies in his WC testimony (below), eh Pat?

Any particular reason WHY you think William H. Shelley would want to tell all these lies?....

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, the day the President was shot, when is the last time you saw Oswald?
Mr. SHELLEY. It was 10 or 15 minutes before 12.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. SHELLEY. On the first floor over near the telephone.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again?
Mr. SHELLEY. At the police station when they brought him in.
Mr. BALL. Did you see him in the building at any time after 12?
Mr. SHELLEY. No.
Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the President was shot see Oswald in the building?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the President was shot tell Oswald to go home?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you tell anybody to go home?
Mr. SHELLEY. No.

From September 28, 1964....

These four Des Moines Tribune newspaper pages contain a very good general summary of the events surrounding President Kennedy's assassination and the murders of J.D. Tippit and Lee Harvey Oswald.

Click to enlarge each page....

1 hour ago, Kathy Beckett said:

I just don't think we should charge for posting. I might be in the minority here, but it doesn't seem right. 

I'm glad to finally hear someone say this, because if this turns into a Pay to Post forum, I'll have to stop posting altogether. (Which I'm sure will make some people here endorse a pay-to-post system even more heartily. )

But I just simply cannot afford any new expenditures at the present time. No way. No how.

So I hope some other alternative besides a pay-in-order-to-post system can be worked out.

First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy makes her delayed entrance into the Grand Ballroom of the Hotel Texas in Fort Worth on the morning of November 22, 1963. Ahead of Mrs. Kennedy is Secret Service agent Clint Hill. (Color version HERE.) ....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/ Prayer Man