David Von Pein

2 minutes ago, Cory Santos said:

So Ruby did not want to be at the motorcade based on his actions that day. You admit that?

Correct.

And so....?

What next?

Were Ruth Paine and Jack Ruby working in concert with each other on 11/22? Is that where you'd like to take this?

10 minutes ago, Cory Santos said:

Where was he [Jack Ruby]? Need proof and citation exactly where he was at 12:30. Thanks.  

Jack Ruby was in the office of a Mr. John W. Newnam at the Dallas Morning News building at precisely 12:30 PM CST on 11/22/63 AD. (Witnessed by Newnam. See his testimony below.)

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/newnam.htm

9 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Her story about driving into Dallas and passing the "old"/original TSBD doesn't hold water.  As mentioned above it was a couple of blocks north of the Elm location.  At that time Houston ended a few blocks north of Elm.  It was not an area you passed going into Dallas.

You've just mangled her testimony completely, Ron. Read it again. She never once said she actually passed right by the warehouse building itself. She said she saw the SIGN while she was driving on a limited access highway leading into Dallas. Here's her testimony (yet again):

RUTH PAINE -- "I had seen a sign on a building as I went along one of the limited access highways that leads into Dallas, saying "Texas School Book Depository Warehouse" and there was the only building that had registered on my consciousness as being Texas School Book Depository. I was not aware, hadn't taken in the idea of there being two buildings and that there was one on Elm, though, I copied the address from the telephone book, and could well have made that notation in my mind but I didn't. The first I realized that there was a building on Elm was when I heard on the television on the morning of the 22nd of November that a shot had been fired from such a building."

10 minutes ago, Cory Santos said:

So we are to believe this historic event was to be missed by Marina whom RP noted liked America and we know was interested in the visit and small children missing this opportunity to see the President, Jackie, Gov and First Lady of Texas, VP and Lady Bird, and a US Senator.    All for a teeth cleaning and a chance at a free prize from the dentist treasure box.    Wow just wow.

Not everybody in the whole city of Dallas (or Irving) went downtown to see JFK on 11/22, Cory. As I pointed out earlier, even Jack Ruby (certainly a "Kennedy man", for sure) didn't go down to view any part of the parade.

1 minute ago, Cory Santos said:

David it is relevant.   I’m sorry you don’t see that.  

Which must mean that you do, indeed, believe that Ruth Paine was actively involved (in some fashion) in trying to frame Lee Harvey Oswald for JFK's murder, correct?

Otherwise, please tell me why it is "relevant" at all that Ruth Paine know about or remember or be in any way concerned about the address of "411 Elm Street"? Tell me WHY she should care at all about that exact address in Dallas, Texas?

9 minutes ago, Cory Santos said:

That’s not a denial.  Again, she knew the Elm address on two occasions prior.   That is a fact.   

Yes, but where do you want to go with this, Cory? Prior to Nov. 22, Ruth said she thought there was only ONE Depository building---that being the "warehouse" building (which was located on Houston St. just a short distance north of the 411 Elm building).

Ruth Paine wasn't really concerned with the exact address of the building at any time. Why would she be? (Yes, I know that if you're in the "Ruth Set Up & Framed LHO" camp, you must believe she most certainly WAS very interested in the exact address; but I don't belong in that camp, of course, so it's my view that Ruth couldn't have cared less exactly what street Lee Oswald worked on.)

A little more of Ruth's WC testimony re: the TSBD buildings....

Mr. JENNER - For the purpose of this record then I would like to emphasize you were under the impression then, were you, that Lee Harvey Oswald was employed...?

Mrs. PAINE - At the warehouse.

Mr. JENNER - Other than at 411, a place at 411 Elm?

Mrs. PAINE - I thought he worked at the warehouse. I had, in fact, pointed out the building to my children going into Dallas later after he had gained employment.

Mr. JENNER - Did you ever discuss with Lee Harvey Oswald where he actually was employed, that is the location of the building?

Mrs. PAINE - No; I didn't.

Mr. JENNER - Did he ever mention it?

Mrs. PAINE - No.

10 minutes ago, Cory Santos said:

if she looked it up in the book, as I noted above, can you be a dove and look up the Dallas phone book in 1963 and see which address is listed.   Thanks.  

Sorry, Cory, but I'm currently out of stock of 1963 Dallas, Texas, telephone directories. (LOL time.) But you don't need it, because I just copied James Hosty's testimony above that answers your inquiry about whether or not Hosty knew the correct 411 Elm address.

And to repeat the RP testimony that I mentioned earlier in this thread (additional emphasis added by me)....

ALBERT JENNER -- "I heard you mention the Texas School Depository warehouse. Did you think the warehouse was at 411 Elm?"

RUTH PAINE -- "No. I had seen a sign on a building as I went along one of the limited access highways that leads into Dallas, saying "Texas School Book Depository Warehouse" and there was the only building that had registered on my consciousness as being Texas School Book Depository. I was not aware, hadn't taken in the idea of there being two buildings and that there was one on Elm, though, I copied the address from the telephone book, and could well have made that notation in my mind but I didn't. The first I realized that there was a building on Elm was when I heard on the television on the morning of the 22nd of November that a shot had been fired from such a building."

8 minutes ago, Cory Santos said:

Exactly.   See my post.  What does Hosty say?    Did he go to the wrong location also?

Mr. HOSTY -- She [Ruth Paine] was quite friendly and invited me in, said this is the first time she had ever met an FBI agent. Very cordial. As I say, it is my recollection I sat here on the couch and she sat across the room from me. I then told her the purpose of my visit, that I was interested in locating the whereabouts of Lee Oswald. She readily admitted that Mrs. Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald's two children were staying with her. She said that Lee Oswald was living somewhere in Dallas. She didn't know where. She said it was in the Oak Cliff area but she didn't have his address. I asked her if she knew where he worked. After a moment's hesitation, she told me that he worked at the Texas School Book Depository near the downtown area of Dallas. She didn't have the exact address, and it is my recollection that we went to the phone book and looked it up, found it to be 411 Elm Street.

Mr. STERN -- You looked it up while you were there?

Mr. HOSTY -- Yes; that is my recollection that we looked it up in her telephone book to show it at 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Tex.
 

28 minutes ago, Cory Santos said:

DVP, try answering these points rather than referring to them as looney. 

I have answered most of them, here:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/04/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-87.html

25 minutes ago, Cory Santos said:

So let’s verify this.   She testified she told an FBI agent prior to the assassination that LHO worked at the TSBD.   Curious, does the report say that or, does Hosty-not my area- mention this in his writings.   Does he say she told him the wrong building?    

It appears that Ruth simply told Hosty that Lee was working at the "Texas School Book Depository". Nothing beyond just that. No address is mentioned in this testimony:

Mr. JENNER - Were you at times asked to address Marina to convey something that the FBI agent asked you to convey to her and then to translate in the reverse to him?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall anything as formal as that; no. The agent and I conversed some in English. He said, for instance, that, well he was interested in knowing if Lee Oswald lived here. I told him he did not, that he had a room in town; he asked if I knew where the room was and I said I did not. He asked if he was working and I said yes, and that he was working at the Texas School Book Depository. I haven't gone over any of this yet, it must have been in conversation with you.

This looks like a good time for me to re-post this....

Reality Break! .....

Can somebody please logically tell me WHY on this Earth the Dallas Police Department would have even wanted  to "plant" five unfired bullets into the record of the Tippit murder case? They already had the six unfired bullets in Oswald's gun itself. What possible reason would anyone at DPD have had for planting 5 more bullets on Oswald?

It's silly beyond belief.

37 minutes ago, Cory Santos said:

So RP testimony confirms: 1- she had interest in the presidential visit. 2-Marina had interest in the visit. 3- she had a very convenient alibi with a dentist appointment. So, why would she schedule a dentist appointment on the day of the visit? Such a historical event certainly one would think a drive downtown to see the president would be a better use of one's time than an appointment that could be performed anytime. However, why would this question not be asked? If Marina or RP might say LHO told them not to come down, that certainly looks suspicious of LHO. Alternatively, what if he said please come down? Whoops, that would create a motive problem.

But, Cory, to repeat....

Neither Ruth nor Marina were aware that Lee worked along the route of the motorcade....

Ruth Paine testified that she thought Lee probably worked at the OTHER Depository building (the warehouse on Houston St.). Therefore, the building that Ruth (and probably Marina too) associated with Lee's workplace would not have been along the motorcade route.

ALBERT JENNER -- "I heard you mention the Texas School Depository warehouse. Did you think the warehouse was at 411 Elm?"

RUTH PAINE -- "No. I had seen a sign on a building as I went along one of the limited access highways that leads into Dallas, saying "Texas School Book Depository Warehouse" and there was the only building that had registered on my consciousness as being Texas School Book Depository. I was not aware, hadn't taken in the idea of there being two buildings and that there was one on Elm, though, I copied the address from the telephone book, and could well have made that notation in my mind but I didn't. The first I realized that there was a building on Elm was when I heard on the television on the morning of the 22nd of November that a shot had been fired from such a building."

----------------

Now, sure, the fact that neither Ruth nor Marina knew that the TSBD building that Lee worked in was, indeed, on the exact motorcade route doesn't have to automatically mean that they would have no interest at all in going somewhere downtown to watch Kennedy in the parade. But that testimony I cited above certainly must be considered and taken into account (at least with respect to the ladies meeting up with Lee and having lunch together, etc.). And then when we add the "dental appointment" into the equation, that combination of things probably answers your question of why Ruth and Marina didn't go downtown on 11/22/63.

3 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

Why did Ruth Paine and Marina not go down to watch the motorcade?   Certainly if her husband worked right on the route, why not go down and let everyone see the motorcade and meet  Lee during lunch?  Did RP not read the paper and notice the motorcade route?  Why was RP not interested in going down to see it?  Such a huge event and you don’t go?  No one finds this odd?

Another (related) thought that just came to me....

I've often heard the very same question asked when talking about Jack Ruby too. Many people ask: Why didn't Ruby, who was a big Kennedy fan and supporter (not to mention a person who always liked to be "where the action is"), have any desire whatsoever to go downtown to see at least a portion of the Dallas motorcade on 11/22?

It's certainly not a bad question at all. And it's not a bad question as it pertains to Ruth and Marina too. Cory Santos, in fact, in this thread today, is the very first person that I am aware of who has ever asked that question (as it pertains to Ruth & Marina).

Maybe somebody can ask Ruth directly about this. (Does Max Good still have her ear?)

EDIT --- I certainly don't think that there's anything of a "conspiratorial" nature that can be made of the fact that Ruth and Marina (and Ruby too) didn't go downtown to watch the motorcade. But it's an interesting question to ask them nonetheless.

9 minutes ago, John Deignan said:

Maybe they didn’t want to expose the children to triangulated crossfire. 

(Good one, John.)

Cory Santos said:

Quote

Why did Ruth Paine and Marina not go down to watch the motorcade?

18 minutes ago, John Deignan said:

Probably because of the children. One being a newborn. 

And two other factors as well....

1.) Ruth Paine had to take her daughter to the dentist on the morning of November 22nd. Such a task probably would have ruled out a visit downtown to see the motorcade. Granted, a dental appointment is certainly something that could have easily been re-scheduled for another day (because I don't think it was an "emergency" dental visit).

From Ruth's WC testimony:

Mrs. PAINE -- "I fixed breakfast for myself and my children, turned on the television set to hear President Kennedy speak in Fort Worth, and had breakfast there. I left the house about 9 with my little girl and boy, because she had a dentist appointment, the little girl. I left the television set on, feeling that Marina might not think to turn it on, but I knew that she would be interested to see President Kennedy. I then was gone until nearly noon, 11:30 or so, both to the dentist and on some errands following that..."

2.) Ruth Paine testified that she thought Lee probably worked at the OTHER Depository building (the warehouse on Houston St.). CTers think she was lying (of course). But, of course, I think otherwise. Therefore, the building that Ruth (and probably Marina too) associated with Lee's workplace would not have been along the motorcade route.

ALBERT JENNER -- "I heard you mention the Texas School Depository warehouse. Did you think the warehouse was at 411 Elm?"

RUTH PAINE -- "No. I had seen a sign on a building as I went along one of the limited access highways that leads into Dallas, saying "Texas School Book Depository Warehouse" and there was the only building that had registered on my consciousness as being Texas School Book Depository. I was not aware, hadn't taken in the idea of there being two buildings and that there was one on Elm, though, I copied the address from the telephone book, and could well have made that notation in my mind but I didn't. The first I realized that there was a building on Elm was when I heard on the television on the morning of the 22nd of November that a shot had been fired from such a building."

52 minutes ago, Tony Rose said:

Right off the bat, Carrol doesn't know who he took the pistol from.  How does that link it to Oswald?

You must be joking here, Tony.

How many gun-waving suspects do you think the cops were fighting in the theater on 11/22?

2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

David, you corrected me in that I thought WBAP was the TV station when you said it was the radio station. But the TV station could not have been far behind, yes?

Oh yes, WBAP-TV probably did mention Oswald's name at about that same time (2:40 to 2:45 CST). I wouldn't have any idea, however, what anyone at WBAP-TV in Fort Worth had to say about anything, because (AFAIK) that station's tapes have never surfaced. I've never seen them at any rate.

2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Have you ever looked into when the TV station first mentioned Oswald by name? Or any other station beyond WFAA? Because we all know that newsmen hate to get scooped and it seems clear that every media outlet in town would have been spewing Oswald's name within minutes of its first mention at 2:37. 

Yes. I even talk about some of the other stations/networks in the article I linked previously:

CBS-TV first mentioned Oswald's name at 2:59 PM CST ("Leo H. Oswald", according to Walter Cronkite at that time).

NBC-TV brought up the rear in uttering the name "Oswald" (as far as the 3 national TV networks). They didn't say that name on the air until 3:20 PM CST, which was 40 minutes after ABC-TV.

48 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

IOW, the fact a few people thought the shots were evenly spaced does not help the Oswald did it scenario...at all.

But it does indicate that there most certainly is some disagreement among the earwitnesses as to the spacing between the gunshots. But to hear most CTers tell it, ALL of the witnesses (or pert-near) belong in the "Bang.........Bang-Bang" category. And that's just not so.

52 minutes ago, Vince Palamara said:

Be prepared to be bummed out, David- Kilduff told Harry Livingstone in High Treason 2 that he did not believe the single bullet theory. Likewise, Clint Hill and Paul Landis both came out in the same year (2016) to denounce the single bullet theory.

That doesn't bum me out, Vince. I'm accustomed to most people being dead wrong when it comes to their rejecting the wholly-logical SBT. (And they are dead wrong.) 😁

29 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

99% of all LN theorists have deluded themselves into thinking the last two shots were 5 seconds apart. Not bang-bang. 

CTers always ignore the multiple witnesses who said the shots were pretty much "EVENLY SPACED" vs. being "bunched together". At my webpage below, I cite seven such "evenly spaced" examples (plus Nellie Connally, who thought the last two shots were spaced farther apart than shots 1 and 2):

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/05/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-710.html

Re: Malcolm Kilduff....

Here's something I said to John Barbour in 2014:

"But you surely cannot believe that when Kilduff casually pointed to his temple that he was inferring that he knew precisely where the bullet entered, can you? That's absurd. Kilduff was merely pointing to his head in a general way to indicate that the President was killed by a bullet through his head/brain. Nothing more than that. And AFAIK, Kilduff was never a conspiracy believer (but I could be mistaken about that)."

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2016/10/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1196.html

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

Oswald's name was first mentioned on WFAA TV around 2:40 and WBAP TV at 2:43. Hmmm... The timing of these reports makes it really difficult to believe that Marina and Ruth wouldn't have known of Oswald's arrest by the time the detectives arrived, should they have actually arrived at 3:30, as claimed.

Pat,

The 2:43 timestamp actually refers to WBAP-Radio, not WBAP-TV.

More....

A Study Of When Oswald's Name Was First Mentioned On TV & Radio