David Von Pein

1 hour ago, Karl Kinaski said:

But at 1h20 Dallas time this day at WFAA a piece of the truth was slipping through...

So, you think somebody was firing a weapon from on top of the Triple Underpass, eh? Okay.

Karl,

In Jay Watson's "blackboard" report (43 minutes into the video you linked above), Jay talks about how the shots were apparently coming from the OVERPASS, not the Grassy Knoll at all.

Now, do you (or any CTer) actually believe that any shots came from atop the Triple Underpass bridge?

As I said (with emphasis now added on my first four words)....

"For the most part, however, the first-day television and radio coverage supports a ONE-assassin, THREE-shots-fired assassination scenario. And that is truly amazing if a multi-gun, six-shots-fired killing had really occurred--as so many conspiracy theorists seem to think did happen in Dealey Plaza."

2 minutes ago, Sean Coleman said:

I mention Kilduff as a prime example- the photos show him in the thick of it at the hospital then spilling the beans to the press. Not sure if he ever expanded on his thoughts, the WC certainly weren’t interested….

Related link of interest:

Jim Hagerty + A Study Of When Oswald's Name Was First Mentioned On TV & Radio

I had this to say about James Hagerty in 2014:

"There is a little bit of "conspiracy" theorizing and speculation, particularly from James Hagerty, who was a former White House press secretary and was an executive at ABC in 1963. Just a few hours after the assassination, Hagerty stated on live TV that JFK's murder had been the result of "a carefully planned conspiracy".

But such pure speculation on Hagerty's part was totally irresponsible. Hagerty, of course, had absolutely nothing to back up his claim about the President's murder being a conspiracy.

For the most part, however, the first-day television and radio coverage supports a ONE-assassin, THREE-shots-fired assassination scenario. And that is truly amazing if a multi-gun, six-shots-fired killing had really occurred--as so many conspiracy theorists seem to think did happen in Dealey Plaza.

Maybe [CTers] think that everybody at CBS, NBC, ABC, WFAA, KLIF, WBAP, and KRLD were all part of an immediate and wide-sweeping cover-up.

But, hey, miracles *can* happen from time to time, I suppose. After all, the Mets did win the Series in '69."

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/11/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-844.html

On 7/8/2022 at 3:34 PM, Bill Brown said:

Housekeeper Earlene Roberts, to a radio reporter on the afternoon of the assassination, stated that Oswald was wearing a "short gray coat" as he left the rooming house.  She told the FBI that she remembered Oswald putting on a jacket and zipping it up as he went out the front door, adding that it was the type of jacket that zips up in the front.

Gil Jesus said:

Quote

Can we get any sources on this?

I don't think I've got a radio report featuring any interview with Earlene Roberts (if I ever find one, I'll post it here), but I do have a video with Mrs. Roberts saying that Oswald left the roominghouse on November 22 wearing a "short coat". (But she didn't say "short GRAY coat".)

The video source I'm speaking of is my video below (near the end). That brief piece with Mrs. Roberts at the end comes from the 1964 David Wolper theatrical motion picture "Four Days In November". And I've never been sure if that clip with Roberts was filmed by a local Dallas/Ft. Worth TV station or whether Mrs. Roberts was interviewed and filmed by Wolper's movie crew itself. I suspect it's the latter, but I'm just not sure. But here it is below. The first interview with Roberts on this video, btw, comes from the 1964 CBS-TV special program "November 22nd And The Warren Report" :

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

Police departments in general and the DPD in particular were not above faking and concealing evidence once they thought they had their man. Once Oswald was arrested, there was no way they would let him walk--no matter what the evidence was. So fake this a little. Fake that a little. Pretend this happened so you can avoid admitting blank. 

But don't forget --- the DPD wasn't the ONLY law enforcement entity gathering and collecting evidence in the JFK case. The Secret Service collected CE399 plus all the bullet fragments from the limousine. And there are many many CTers who feel that the FBI was up to their eyeballs in helping to "frame" Lee Oswald too, after the FBI got ahold of the evidence from the DPD around midnight on Nov. 22.

So that's THREE different law agencies (not counting Bill Decker's Sheriff's Dept. as well) who have been accused of playing around with the evidence in the Kennedy/Tippit cases.

So, if the evidence in the JFK/Tippit cases is not legitimate, that means THREE  different law enforcement entities would have had to possess the very same like-mindedness  to want to frame the same man (Lee Oswald) by using fraudulent/manufactured evidence that all points to LHO.

Do you believe that, Pat? Or do you think it was just  the DPD who were involved with "faking this a little" and "faking that a little"?

So, Joseph, you think JP David Johnston was lying through his teeth to the WC was he said he personally arraigned LHO at 1:35 AM CST on 11/23?

And is this document (Johnston Exhibit No. 1), handwritten by Johnston, also a lie?:

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh20/html/WH_Vol20_0168a.htm

5 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

Alright, so all of that “untainted” evidence that led to prison and even death sentences of innocent people who were later exonerated totally justifies the DPD fabricating evidence to get a conviction.

I never said anything of the kind. I merely wanted to know what made you think the DPD cops "believed" in the suspect's guilt in the first place.

16 minutes ago, Joseph McBride said:

An FBI document says Oswald was never arraigned for the murder of JFK, only for the murder of Tippit, although he was charged with both murders.

And that document is obviously not correct, because the testimony of JP David Johnston verifies that Oswald was arraigned for JFK's murder at 1:35 AM on 11/23....

"That arraignment was held at 1:35 a.m., November 23, 1963, in the identification bureau of the Dallas Police Department, and once again I appraised him [Oswald] of his constitutional rights, read the affidavit, and advised him again that I remanded him to the custody of the sheriff, Dallas County, denying bond as capital offense." -- D. Johnston; WC Testimony

The video below was recorded about an hour or so before the 1:35 AM arraignment of Oswald. In the video, David Johnston reads the formal charges filed against Oswald (the same charges/affidavit that Johnston would be reading to Oswald an hour later):

19 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

You don’t think the DPD believed they had the right suspect in the cases where they fabricated evidence?

And if they DID believe they had the right suspect even BEFORE they started fabricating evidence, please tell me what you think they based that belief on---if not the actual untainted evidence in the case?

They surely didn't "believe" a person was guilty on the basis of having no real and untainted evidence against him in the first place, right?

6 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

Unfortunately, they [the DPD] were corrupt as it gets, and are known to have fabricated evidence and railroaded innocent suspects in other cases...

Even in cases where their own police officers have been slain?  Even in THAT type of case, you think the DPD would NOT want to seek out and capture the real killer of their brother officer? They would just be content to let the culprit get away and FRAME an innocent guy instead?

Come now, Mr. Gram.

..........

14 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

There is absolutely legitimate ambiguity in the Tippit evidence...

I disagree.

Again, I think it's that term "legitimate" that must be applied. Is the ambiguity "legitimate"? In other words, is it truly REASONABLE to think that the cops were running around faking/changing/manipulating the Tippit evidence so that Oswald could be framed and the real killer could get away with it?

Such a notion to me is preposterous. But to many CTers, it's more than reasonable---it actually happened (despite the CTers' ZERO amount of proof to back up such a vile charge).

And around this mulberry bush we pass once more....

27 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

Mr. DiEugenio was speaking of Vincent Bugliosi and since Mr. Bugliosi has never been a member of this forum, there is no violation.

Right. And that is just exactly what I have said (twice now) to Jim DiEugenio.

Plus, given my current condition of having multiple eggshells permanently affixed to both of my feet while I'm posting at this Internet location, I most certainly wouldn't be stupid enough to come out and call any EF member the L-word. And from the posts I've seen where Bill Brown has utilized the L-word "trick", I don't think Bill has called any current EF member the L-word either.

If I'm wrong, Gil, please provide the link(s).

1 hour ago, Tom Gram said:

...and acknowledge when dealing with legitimate ambiguity.

The key word there, Tom, being "legitimate".

Dale Myers doesn't think there's "legitimate ambiguity" in the Tippit evidence at all. And he argues his case from that POV. And I happen to agree with him about the evidence that exists in the Tippit murder case.

The Tippit case is about as "open and shut" as any case could ever be, IMO. (And HERE is why I believe that.)

You and other CTers disagree. Well, okay. There's always going to be that basic disagreement about the Tippit evidence, I guess. But I certainly haven't seen any solid proof to indicate, for example, that the chain of custody is terrible or non-existent for the V510210 revolver (which was definitely shipped to OSWALD'S P.O. Box by Seaport Traders) or that the chain of custody/possession is lousy for the 2 non-Poe bullet shells that littered 10th Street either.

And if Officer C.T. Walker's testimony regarding some of the things uttered by Lee Oswald in the police car after his arrest are correct and accurate (and I see no reason to totally disregard Walker's testimony; do you?)....then, in my opinion, Oswald, in essence, practically confessed to murdering J.D. Tippit during that ride in the police car on the way to City Hall. No, he didn't say to Walker: "I just shot me a cop!" But does anybody really think a totally innocent person would say some of the things that Oswald is alleged to have said in the theater and just after his arrest?

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com / They Say It Just Takes A Second To Die

44 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

How anyone can take Meyers [sic] seriously on the JFK case is astounding.

This is the guy who put together a GIGO computer presentation and then on national TV, he proclaimed the Single Bullet Theory the Single Bullet Fact.

That presentation was utterly destroyed at least five times: Speer, Harris, Mantik, Cranor and Orr.  All on mostly different grounds.

Anyone who can do something like that should not be trusted with anything on the JFK case.

Oh my Lord! These eggshells are getting harder and harder to walk on!

44 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Which is why I do not read Meyers [sic]. 

It'd be nice if you could learn how to spell his name correctly though. (Even if you do hate the man's guts.)

44 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Its [sic] very clear what is happening here. He and his book are being dragged over the coals and shown to be, to put it mildly, rather dubious and incomplete. And he does no[t] like it.

Anyone who can call Dale Myers' book "With Malice" an "incomplete" book must certainly be somebody who has never read it. Because if there's one thing "With Malice" is certainly NOT, it's "incomplete".

3 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

To be clear, I have focused on the shooting in Dealey and remain open-minded about the Tippit shooting. It has no bearing on Oswald's guilt re Kennedy, but may have been a factor in his death. Cop Killers don't live very long. The police somehow make sure of that. 

OK, Pat. I won't press you any more on Revolver V510210.

Thanks.

24 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Kathy and Mark, thanks, but I also wish you would address the BB trick of calling someone a L i a r by spacing out the letters.   That is clearly a deliberate dodge of the rules.

But, as I said before, neither Bill Brown nor I dodged any rule, and that's because we did not call any FORUM MEMBER the L-word.

(And, as we can see, Jim D. above just now did the "spaced out letters" trick again himself.)

22 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

About the only thing that John McAdams and I agreed upon was that the Tippit killing is not the Rosetta Stone etc.  That's garbage. If Oswald was running for his life he may very well have killed Tippit. it's a separate issue from the Kennedy assassination. The argument that he must have been guilty or he wouldn't have killed a cop is just make-believe. It evaporates by the light of day. if he was on the run for his life and thought he'd been set up, a cop is exactly who he'd kill, because that would be the person who would be his greatest threat. 

That's not what I asked you though, Pat.

5 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

I've always been amazed at what you have been able to do here. Perhaps having an extensive website (as you do) to quote from helps make it easier.

That's true. It also helps in finding primary source information on a given subject too (which I try to always link to on my webpages).

9 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

I am actually an agnostic on this issue.

Do you think that the Smith & Wesson revolver (Serial Number V510210) was the weapon that killed J.D. Tippit?

If you answer yes to that question, then the only way for Lee Oswald to be innocent of that crime is if the "idiotic" scenario I mentioned in my last post actually somehow did occur on 11/22. Agreed?

2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Nat Geo I think it was then bought the "film rights" or whatever and made a TV movie starring Rob Lowe as Kennedy. By my estimation, O'Reilly not only made more money off his "efforts" than any CT, but more than Bugliosi, Posner, etc. 

And the irony/sickening thing about it is that I don't know one LN who takes it seriously and thinks it anything more than a piece of crap. 

I totally agree with you on the O'Reilly film. I wrote a little mini-review of the "Killing Kennedy" hunk of junk in November of 2013:

"Killing Kennedy [the 2013 TV movie] was absolutely horrible. While watching it, I had the feeling I was sitting through a non-stop series of mini movie trailers. That's the way it felt to me anyway. Short little scenes. Nothing fleshed out. And too many errors in the details to possibly mention them all. One of which was: They actually had pictures of Oswald visiting the Mexico City embassies. They just decided to invent some pictures that never existed, and then Hosty shows the pictures to Oswald after his arrest. A most curious fairy tale there. .... Too bad, too. Because Bill O'Reilly does have the bottom-line facts correct -- Oswald killed Kennedy and Tippit, and LHO took a shot at General Walker too. It's just a shame that the "Killing Kennedy" filmmakers tried to jam a six-hour story into ninety minutes." -- DVP; Nov. 2013

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/10/killing-kennedy-by-bill-oreilly.html

13 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

P.S. I think you understand that saying someone is wrong or that you disagree with them is perfectly acceptable, but there's a level of nastiness in Myers' article that would definitely not be allowed on the forum.  

Oh yes, I definitely agree with you there. Myers doesn't mince any words. Nor do I think he should---especially with all the facts that are on his side regarding the Tippit murder (i.e., facts that are regarded as fake or fraudulent by many conspiracy theorists, without those CTers offering up the slightest bit of proof  to show that any  of the Tippit evidence is really fake or fraudulent; all the CTers have are their suspicions and their speculation).

So, frankly, I can certainly understand the attitude that Mr. Dale K. Myers takes towards the conspiracy believers who continue to shout "Oswald Didn't Shoot Tippit". Because as I've stated before....

2 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

There's an expression: "Plays well with others". No one has ever used that expression to describe Dale Myers. I doubt he could last one day before he went off on a rant about how stupid most of us are...

Yeah, you're probably right.

[ Obligatory ---- 😁 ]