David Von Pein

7 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

First of all, I'm not sure this thread should be allowed. If one can't abuse fellow forum members, one probably shouldn't be allowed to link to articles in which fellow forum members are abused.

I disagree with you on this, Pat.

If such a rule were to be put in place, I think there would also be a lot of linked webpages posted by CTers that would also have to be disallowed, because I'll bet I could find many such CTer-linked articles that "abuse fellow forum members". Wouldn't you agree?

6 minutes ago, Kathy Beckett said:

Everybody here knows how to act well. Just do it.

EOD

Ten-Four!

I agree.

14 minutes ago, Kathy Beckett said:

Don't call anyone dishonest. .... Don't call anyone ignorant.

What about calling members "trolls"?

4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Is Von Pein doing this now also?

The whole spaced out thing about calling someone  l i a r?

I really think that is dirty pool.  

Jim,

The rule in place here at this forum is that a member can't call ANOTHER FORUM MEMBER the L-word. Neither Bill nor I have done that. And you know it.

Plus, you yourself just now spaced out the L-word so it would be visible. Which is the same kind of allowable usage of the word that I have applied in my posts (and Bill Brown too).

IMO, the nitpicky efforts that some CTers are resorting to in order to try and get the LNers here into hot water with the moderators is laughable and silly.

3 hours ago, Joseph McBride said:

It seems that trolls are trying to take over the forum. 

Are all LNers to be considered "trolls", Joseph?

And speaking of forum rules --- Is it okay to refer to other forum members as "trolls" (as Joseph McBride just did above)? I doubt that it is. 

"No member is allowed to make personal insults with regard to another member."

36 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Those aren't l.i.a.r.s David... they are patriots helping to save their country from nuclear war. It's just that they have to tell lies to do it.

Oh for Pete sake. You can't possibly believe such nonsense.

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

The witnesses have no reason to lie but the government does.

Does your above statement therefore mean that you don't  think any of these non-Government people I mentioned earlier told any lies in connection with the JFK & Tippit murder cases? ---

Roy Truly, Marrion Baker, Buell Frazier, Linnie Mae Randle, Howard Brennan, Ted Callaway, Ruth Paine, Michael Paine, and Marina Oswald.

Remember, Sandy, you just said "The witnesses have no reason to lie."

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Helen Markham didn't lie about the time because she wasn't tricked or coached when telling about it. But she was tricked into picking Oswald in the lineup, and that surely explains her being unreliable with her testimony regarding that.

So you say. I again say Hogwash!

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

It's no worse than what you do David. Except you say it is the witnesses who are wrong.

Many witnesses were wrong about many things. But that's a whole lot different than accusing the witnesses of lying.

CTers have a list of  l i a r s  as long as my arm -- e.g., Truly, Baker, Frazier, Randle, Humes, Boswell, Brennan, Callaway, the Paines, Marina, and many others.

My list of provable  l-i-a-r-s  has only two people on it: Roger Craig and Jean Hill.

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Well I believe the witnesses and don't believe the government.

Do you believe Roger Craig's tale about seeing the words "7.65 Mauser" stamped on the TSBD rifle?

And do you believe Jean Hill's late-arriving story about actually seeing a gunman fire at JFK from the Grassy Knoll?

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

The witnesses have no reason to lie but the government does.

So you say.

And it's a nice convenient excuse for CTers to use too --- i.e., The Government has a reason to lie and cover stuff up, so that's what they positively did do in the JFK case.

To that, I say Hogwash!

14 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

The only thing she [Helen Markham] was reliable for was the time the shooting happened. 

And yet I'm told that it's only the LNers who pick and choose.

Looks like James DiEugenio of Los Angeles does it too. He's really fond of that "1:06" timestamp that Markham puts on the Tippit shooting, but Jim is quite willing and eager to toss Helen under the bus she was trying to catch when it comes to everything else she said.

How nice.

29 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

How can Bill and DVP possibly believe that altered ambulance time sheet??

Good! More "altered" evidence!

When a JFK researcher needs to have SO MUCH "altered evidence" and SO MANY "coerced" and/or "lying" witnesses to make their conspiracy case float....isn't it time to step back and re-assess your thinking a little bit?

I would certainly think so.

8 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

That's highly doubtful given that Tippit was already at the hospital at 1:15.

Which is, of course, impossible since we have TWO different sources for the ambulance being en route to Tenth & Patton at 1:18 (the Dudley Hughes call slip + DPD radio tapes).

You think BOTH sources were wrong---to the exact same (wrong) minute??!

(Wanna dance around this a third time?)

10 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

[Quoting Jack Meyers:]

At a distance of 55-60 feet, Ted Calloway [sic] could have easily mistaken Billy Lovelady (and a lot of other young, white males) for Lee Oswald. It is exactly this sort of testimony by a witness who is so “100% positive” that has led to innocent persons finding themselves on death row.

Of course the big difference in this (Tippit/Callaway) case is that the man seen by Ted Callaway had the Tippit murder weapon on him when he was arrested while fighting with the police just half-an-hour after Callaway saw the armed man at Patton & Jefferson.

An anesthetized armadillo could have solved the Tippit murder case in less than twelve hours. But, for some odd reason, thousands of unanesthetized conspiracy researchers can't seem to manage that simple feat.

~large shrug~

21 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

David, I appreciate the reply, but whether or not V510210 was ordered by Oswald is a totally different topic. For the purpose of argument, I will stipulate to it being Oswald’s revolver. 

The point is that it cannot be proved to any acceptable legal standard that Oswald actually had that gun on him in the Texas Theater, period. There is no chain of evidence from the crime scene, and the official chain of custody has several full-blown contradictions that would have been a very big deal if Oswald had made it to trial. 

Well, Tom, can you answer this for me please.....

If the gun taken off of Oswald in the theater WASN'T the V510210 S&W gun that was shipped to Oswald by Seaport Traders, Inc., then how and when did the Dallas Police acquire the V510210 revolver?

Even Oswald himself admits to taking a revolver into the movie theater. And there is no indication that Oswald owned TWO different revolvers.

I guess CTers can speculate that Oswald got ahold of another pistol and it was this "other" gun that was taken off of him in the theater (and you DO believe he WAS caught with a gun on him in the theater, don't you Tom?)....but why would you want to jump through such "another gun" hoops when the logical answer is that the ONE & ONLY handgun known to be owned by Lee Oswald was, indeed, the gun wrested from his grasp in the Texas Theater on Friday, November 22nd?

Shouldn't Occam and his handy Razor apply in this discussion about LHO's gun?

47 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I believe that the ambulance document was originally marked 1:08, but was changed to 1:18 so as not to conflict with the revised time of shooting, 1:16.

So how do you account for the fact that the 1:18 ambulance call slip matches nicely with the DPD radio tapes, with the DPD tapes indicating that Tippit's ambulance was communicating via DPD radio in the 1:18 to 1:19 range?

Do you want to suggest that BOTH the Dudley Hughes time clock AND the DPD clocks were BOTH incorrect by pretty much the exact same amount?

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/dpdtapes/tapes2.htm

1 hour ago, Gil Jesus said:

Tom, you might want to know that Capt Fritz ordered the detectives to turn the "Oswald" handgun ( serial # V510210 ) and the THREE unfired rounds over to Capt. Doughty at 3:30 pm. This further confounds the chain of possession of the handgun and proves that Sgt. Hill lied when he testified that he was the only one in whose possession the gun was. ( Dallas Police Box 1, pg. 80 )

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=217800#relPageId=80

Well, quite clearly that document cited by Gil cannot be relied on to be accurate with respect to at least one of the times given -- i.e., the "1:15" time for Tippit being pronounced dead is, of course, not accurate at all, since the ambulance didn't even receive the call to go get Tippit until 1:18 [see "With Malice", 1998 edition, pages 101-104].

Plus, the document Gil cites has the time "1:00" visible underneath the "1:15" mark-over, which is a further indication that whoever was creating that document was a bit confused on the times.

Therefore, should the "3:30" time reference be trusted either? Maybe. But it's certainly not written in stone.

3 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

...you are still claiming that there are no problems with the chain of custody of the revolver. There really are...

Tom,

There is absolute rock-solid proof  that CE143, the gun with all the police officers' initials on it, is positively Lee Oswald's revolver. The only way anybody could possibly think otherwise is to postulate (i.e., pretend) that this document below (Michaelis Exhibit No. 2) is a fake/fraudulent document. Because that particular document verifies for all time that Seaport Traders, in March of 1963, shipped to "A.J. Hidell" a Smith & Wesson .38 Special revolver with the exact same serial number on it  that appears in the picture provided above by Tom Gram---Serial Number V510210. And Seaport shipped that gun to the P.O. Box which we know was rented by the same man (Lee Oswald) who was arrested with a gun in his hands inside the Texas Theater on 11/22/63:

Conspiracy believers can continue to pretend that the above document is fraudulent or manufactured by the cops if they want to (and some do), but there has never been one shred of PROOF to show that Michaelis Exhibit No. 2 (or any other Kennedy-related evidence, for that matter) has actually been faked or manufactured by any team of conspirators who were bent on framing Lee Harvey Oswald.

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/Lee Oswald's Revolver

14 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

David, [I'm] sorry but I have to take issue with you here on this Tippit Shooting and the so-called other overwhelming evidence against the Patsy, Lee Harvey Oswald. Everyone knows your history of being bias, and out to get an innocent man convicted of a crime he never committed. So respectfully I’m going to lay out some of the evidence here for your consideration in hopes it might change your mind. If it’s any consolation, I was accused of being bias myself, and this new evidence may change my mind.

1.       Marina Oswald identified her husband jackets to the Warren Commission. The blue jacket left at the TSBD and the Gray Jacket (CE162 – the jacket found under a car behind the Ballew Texaco Station). FALSE: Marina was threatened with deportation and was forced to lie under oath. Everyone knows that! The Warren Commission staff knew it too, that’s why they twisted her testimony around to convict Oswald in the public’s eyes. You really need to study the Deep State better.

2.       Earlene Roberts testified that Oswald left the Beckley Rooming house zipping up a jacket. FALSE: Greg Parker and the ROKC research staff proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Oswald never lived at the Beckley Rooming house. If James DiEugenio thinks Greg Parker is a top notched researcher exposing the WC myths, that’s good enough for me!

3.       Oswald owned the Smith-Wesson.38 revolver that killed Officer Tippit; he bought it mail order from Seaport Traders in Los Angeles. FALSE: Oswald while working at Jagger-Chiles-Stovall was contacted by the secret Dodd Committee to order the pistol to expose mail order gun companies. He did it out of his patriotic duty. A secret Todd Committee handler gave Oswald the “True Adventures” magazine and clipped out the order coupon. All Deep State stuff, David.

4.       The serial number on the revolver matched Seaport Trader’s paperwork. FALSE: Captain Pinky Westbrook of the DPD made sure the serial numbers matched because he was working with the CIA. We know this because he was sent to Vietnam to work with the CIA. Again, you need to bone up on the Deep State.

5.       Oswald shot Officer Tippit. FALSE: It was Larry Crafard and Harry Olsen that did it. After Crafard shot Tippit, he was driven back to Ruby’s Carousel Club by Harry Olsen. I know Olsen was on crutches, but Crafard helped Olsen drive using his own foot on the accelerator and brakes. Crafard faked going back to sleep when Ruby’s bartender, Andy Armstrong woke him up in the backroom. Crafard I’m sure was exhausted after committing this murder. Go ahead and laugh, get it out of your system.

6.       Tippit was Badgeman. TRUE: Author Joseph McBride almost proved this. Marie Tippit could not pin down the exact time JD Tippit came home to eat lunch. She failed to record the lunch time on her notepad at home. That is highly suspicious!

7.       The Postal Code on the Klein’s envelope was “12”; someone other than Oswald mailed that money order to Chicago away from the General Post Office on Ervay Street. TRUE: James DiEugenio and John Armstrong proved that! Come on David, you need to study postal zones in Dallas. You may take issue with that statement by DiEugenio, but it was proven that Marina Oswald herself mailed a letter to Ruth Paine (the CIA handler) from the 214 West Neely Street apartment with a map of where she lived. On that letter was the Postal Code “15”. That postal code was in South Dallas, south of Fair Park, way across the Trinity River. We know that Marina took her baby in a stroller and walked a distance of some 15 miles, just to mail that letter!

8.       Johnny Brewer was a conspirator in setting up Oswald to be captured. TRUE: We know the CIA often uses front companies to carry on their covert activities. Hardy Shoes on Jefferson Blvd was one of them. You may laugh at this, but where do you think the TV producers of the 1965 series, “Get Smart” got the idea of a shoe phone for Secret Agent Maxell Smart? Huh? Yep, Hardy Shoes. All Deep State.

9.       Oswald didn’t shoot Officer Tippit, again. TRUE: Oswald was instructed by his handler to go get his Dodd Committee pistol and load the cylinder. It was a mere coincidence that the same .38 bullet shells of Remington-Peters and Western Cartridge were found on 10^th and Patton that were found in Oswald’s Dodd pistol. His handler instructed him to meet him at the Texas Theater to receive further instructions. Because the Texas Theater was a dangerous place to be on a Friday matinee, his handler advised him to carry extra ammo in his pocket in case one of the patrons who did murder Officer Tippit was there. All foreknowledge of the Big Event, Deep State all the way! 

Bill Brown then said:

Quote

Nice one, Steve.  May have to bump this one once a week.

And yet Steve's humorous post (which was obviously done in a tongue-in-cheek manner) actually received this seemingly serious (??) response from conspiracist Gil J. Jesus:

Gil Jesus said:

Quote

Notice that he doesn't post any evidence or citations. It's just a long narrative.

This is the same guy who has serious problems with accuracy in Jim DiEugenio's new book ?

His #8 in particular made me laugh.

So, either Gil was, indeed, taking Steve Roe's post seriously, or Gil thinks that a post designed to be humorous parody should actually include "citations". ~shrug~ +

Here's my own attempt at parody and satire when it comes to the subject of Lee Oswald's obvious guilt in the Tippit murder. I wrote this 16 years ago:

http://jfk-archives/The Hilarious Defense Of Lee Harvey Oswald

6 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

Ball asked her what time she "got her bus" (strange way to ask a question).  We cannot know how Markham interpreted it and therefore we can not really know what her answer really tells us.

It's just as possible that she is saying that she regularly got to her bus stop at 1:15 (which puts her there to regularly catch the 1:22 bus).

Yes. Exactly. And I have postulated that precise scenario in the past:

"My guess is that Helen Markham very likely timed it so that she would be at the Jefferson & Patton bus stop at approximately 1:15 every day, and she would (of course) then catch the next bus to come by that was going downtown (whenever that was, at 1:22, or 1:26, whenever). That way, she would be a little early to catch the next bus. Makes sense to me anyway. And the FBI report in CD630 clearly indicates that "the bus is scheduled to pass this point [at Patton and Jefferson] at about 1:12 PM and every ten minutes thereafter". So it's fairly clear that if Mrs. Markham didn't catch the 1:12 bus, she could have caught another bus at about 1:22 or 1:32. And since she didn't have to be at work until 2:30 PM, there was plenty of time to spare, even if she had to take one of those later busses. But it makes no sense for her to regularly get to the bus stop at 1:15 if she was really trying to catch a 1:12 bus. That's crazy." -- DVP; April 2017

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/Helen Markham's Bus

53 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

I posted his [Domingo Benavides'] testimony. That's what he said. If you don't want to believe it, that's your problem.

Here's what Benavides said in his 1967 CBS-TV interview:

"I give him enough time to get around the house, thinking he might have went in the house. I sat there for maybe a second or two and then jumped out of the truck."

18 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

The issue is that nobody initialed the gun until around 4pm in Westbrook's office...

Big deal. That's only 2 hours after Oswald was brought to the City Hall.

And what's the beef again with the gun being marked in Westbrook's office? ~shrug~

Sounds like a bunch of nit-picking to me.

12 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

I don't read DVP any more especially since that ridiculous post on my videos, as if the numeral 12 on the envelope being a machine stamp was a fact.  I mean please. Armstrong showed the envelope to a retired letter carrier who worked for 35 years in the post office.  The guy said that is a zone number.  So what DVP presents as fact is not. 

It would be nice if James DiEugenio wouldn't misrepresent what I said. Contrary to what DiEugenio just said above, I never said my theory regarding the "12" on the postmark was a "fact". I used the word "likely" in this post in question.

11 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Tippit's ambulance arrived at the hospital at 1:15,

That's highly doubtful, since the same ambulance didn't even arrive at the Tippit murder scene until 1:18:59 PM [per Dale Myers' "With Malice", page 104].

Of course, the "in" thing to do now amongst CTers seems to be to pretend that all of the times that appear on the DPD radio transmissions are way way off, which is ridiculous. If the DPD tapes are "off" at all, they are not likely to be off by more than a few seconds. So there's no way (realistically) that the ambulance with Tippit's body in it arrived at the hospital by (or at) 1:15.