David Von Pein

25 minutes ago, Andrew Prutsok said:

Pretty solid of Mr. Von Pein to post the NBC footage. Hats off, considering the attacks he frequently receives — whether justified, or...they are mostly justified. I jest of course. I think it’s a noble gesture.

Personally, I suspect Prayerman is Lee Harvey Oswald. But the blurry Prayerman figure looks somewhat Rubyesque to me as well. The hairline, I think.  Not suggesting it’s Ruby, just found it amusing. 

Thanks for the kind words, Andrew.

And what you said about Ruby and hairlines is kind of interesting, because many people still to this day seem to think that Jack Ruby was roaming all over Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63. (Not as "Prayer Man" on the steps, but Ruby was allegedly seen in other locations within the Plaza, according to Jean Hill and others.)

6 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

my odds ratio is preliminary, just to illustrate where it would be now with existing matches as they are known.

But there's the rub right there, Andrej. How do we decide what is truly "known", vs. factors (or "matches") that are merely pure guesses? Such as Male vs. Female and the weight of the individual, to name just two factors?

It's a guessing game to a large degree.

Andrej,

You're just inventing those "1 in 700,000" odds. It's being based on data that YOU think is correct. While others might disagree with your data. For example, you've decided that PM is a MALE. But we don't KNOW that for a fact. It could be a female. In which case, your "1 in 700,000" figure would change dramatically.

Anyway, I don't place much stock in "odds" reached by CTers----especially since the "1 in 100 trillion trillion" junk (or whatever the number was) that came from the CT crowd many years ago re: the "Mysterious Deaths", which we now know was totally bogus.

Two more additions to my "Master Video Index":

Linked below is one of my NBC-TV videos which shows the Wiegman film being broadcast on live television for the first time (narrated by Charles Murphy of WBAP-TV). Skip to about 37:00 to see the Wiegman footage. I can't see the "Prayer Man" figure at all in this video footage, but perhaps some of the photographic experts/wizards at this forum can extract the "PM" out of this footage.

Note --- This version below of NBC's assassination coverage is probably the very best and highest visual quality you will likely ever come across for this videotaped material. It was sent to me in 2015 by a Facebook friend who didn't want to be identified, and he gave me permission to post his enhanced footage anywhere I wanted on the Internet. The video below is a "raw file" that has not been re-processed by me or anyone else after I received it in 2015, which makes it a little clearer than my edited version that I've placed on my websites and elsewhere.

To see all five "Raw" parts in my NBC-TV series, Click Here. The Wiegman film is shown at least two more times by NBC later in the day on November 22nd, including in Part 5 of my series, when a very brief segment of the Darnell film is also seen (but not Darnell's footage of the TSBD, however)....

http://drive.google.com/ Video File / NBC-TV Coverage On November 22, 1963 (Part 2)

I also just today realized that I have in my video archives a fairly high-quality (enhanced) version of the NBC-TV coverage that aired on 11/22/63, and that coverage includes the news film taken by NBC cameraman Dave Wiegman. I'm not sure if my enhanced NBC coverage contains the Jimmy Darnell footage or not, but it might, because Darnell was employed by an NBC affiliate, WBAP-TV in Fort Worth, at that time. I'll go look now.

12 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

We will see about it. I am sure we can do a lot for clarifying the possibility of Lee Oswald being Prayer Man even with the versions of Darnell available now, and even more if a high-resolution copy of Darnell film will be available to researchers.

I would not recommend using the copy of Darnell's still which pops up after hitting the link in your message. I am afraid this version is already a processed image in which the contrasts have been increased. My preferred Darnell images are those obtained by disassembling Darnell film into individual frames. 

Well, I have some other versions of the Prayer Man image saved on my computer too [below], if they will help. (You might not believe me, but I too would like to be able to find out who "Prayer Man" is, if at all possible.)

2 hours ago, Rich Pope said:

Some people like to stir the pot.  DVP gets his kicks making others mad. 

Not true.

Quote

I'll be the first to say the U.S. Government has lied to us and continues to lie to us. 

Are you sure you're "the first"?

Quote

I'll be the first to say the CIA killed JFK while LBJ, the media (as part of operation mockingbird) and the FBI covered it up.  

The first again, eh? I kinda doubt it. Not around these parts.

It doesn't really matter, Andrej. Because one thing is quite obvious to me after looking at this image just one time ---- and that is:

Nobody can say for sure who the so-called "Prayer Man" person is ---- not even Marina Oswald.

And anyone who thinks she can positively I.D. LHO as PM is only fooling themselves.

Andrej,

Good suggestions above. I agree that a sit-down, in-person conversation with Marina Oswald Porter would be the best way to straighten out exactly where she stands on the matter of "Altgens/Lovelady" vs. "Prayer Man". Because I think, as of right now, she is equating ALL "Doorway Man" images with the famous Altgens/Lovelady image. And I think that's why she said this to Ed LeDoux in one of their conversations:

"When I [LeDoux] asked Marina about the images of Prayer Man to Lee, she said, “Yes, seen it many times”, like it was old news."

Now, does anyone really think that Marina Oswald has seen the "Prayer Man" image "many times" since that theory first popped up on anybody's radar in 2013? I seriously doubt it. The image she has very likely seen "many times", however, is the Altgens/Lovelady picture.

On 7/17/2015 at 12:12 AM, David Von Pein said:

~sigh~

Mark, when I put quotes around the words "second-floor encounter", I was certainly NOT directly quoting the DMN article. I've been putting quote marks around those words ("second-floor encounter") for the last couple of days now in my posts here at EF (such as this post and this post), only to stress that the conspiracy theorists think the "second-floor encounter" is a totally bogus and fabricated "second-floor encounter" altogether. The utilization of quotation marks around a word or phrase, as you know, oftentimes is done by a writer to denote something that ALLEGEDLY has taken place.

If I confused you with my quotation marks in my last post, I'm sorry. But I was not quoting the DMN there. Because, you're right, the paper doesn't specifically say the "encounter" took place on the second floor. But the main point I was making in posting that DMN article was to simply show people like Bob Prudhomme, etc., that an "encounter" involving the police and Lee Oswald inside the Depository WAS being reported to the press on November 22. With the press also receiving the additional important information about Oswald being "turned...loose when he was identified as an employe".

All of that information fits perfectly with every version of the event that was ever uttered by both Marrion Baker and Roy Truly. The only thing missing is the exact location within the Depository where the "encounter" took place.

Now, let's see if Robert Prudhomme would like to take back what he told me just a few hours ago when he said this....

"If this interview with Curry had taken place on the afternoon of the 22nd, I might take you seriously." -- Bob Prudhomme

Well, I think I just proved in my last post (via the DMN article) that the press most definitely had the story on November 22 itself about Oswald being seen by the police in the TSBD and then "turned loose". But many CTers don't seem to believe that ANY "encounter" occurred between the policeman Baker and Lee Oswald AT ALL.

So let's see if Bob now wants to claim that the alleged official cover story concerning the Baker/Oswald encounter started just a tiny little bit BEFORE the 11/23/63 edition of the Dallas Morning News went to press.

And then when I find an AFTERNOON paper from November 22 from somewhere else in the country, or when I locate a radio or television snippet from the afternoon of November 22 which mentions the policeman/Oswald encounter (which might very well exist somewhere in my huge audio/video collection), maybe Bob can then move those goal posts even more, perhaps to the MORNING of November 22nd.

Also see this newspaper clipping from the 11/23/63 edition of The Washington Post, which clearly shows a date for the article of "DALLAS, Nov. 22", in which the Baker/Truly/Oswald encounter is clearly referenced.

An "It's Lee!" Follow-Up....

Based on the comments I have received from a member of my Facebook group, I was prompted to take another look at this page of the "Prayer Man" website, on which we find these words (which evidently I didn't read carefully enough yesterday when I first looked at that webpage; emphasis added by DVP):

"When I [Ed LeDoux] got to Richard Sprague’s annotated sketches of Weigman [sic] and the label of an unknown figure marked J, she stopped me. Marina interjected and said, “That’s Lee”. I was taken aback, as she knew exactly what and who I had asked about. She volunteered her answer. I exclaimed, “What?”, to make sure I had heard her correctly. And she replied to me, “It’s Lee”, and did so as quite a matter of fact."

So it's clear from the above words written by Ed LeDoux that Marina didn't "identify" Lee Harvey Oswald as "Prayer Man" from any of the FILMS showing the front of the Book Depository during the time of the assassination (i.e., the black-and-white news films taken by Dave Wiegman of NBC-TV and Jimmy Darnell of WBAP-TV), but, instead, Marina evidently called out "That's Lee" when looking at this "sketch"....



....which, of course, is a sketch that depicts absolutely no clear features whatsoever that could possibly be utilized to positively identify ANY human being.

So when I said this yesterday....

"Marina Oswald looked at the same crappy, fuzzy image that all of us have looked at, and yet she somehow KNOWS "It's Lee". Yeah, right."

....I was probably incorrect, because it certainly would appear (according to the words we find at Prayer-Man.com) that Marina Oswald was NOT looking at this still frame from the Darnell Film when she exclaimed "It's Lee". She was merely looking at some drawing or "sketch".

So why in the world the Prayer Man and ROKC conspiracy theorists are propping up this "It's Lee" junk is beyond me. Because it couldn't be more obvious to me now that Marina Oswald's "It's Lee!" declaration is about as useful and meaningful as a blind person trying to figure out the identity of the "Prayer Man" figure.

In other words, Marina is very likely mixed up regarding which "Doorway Man" figure is which, and as such, her "It's Lee" remark is not credible at all. In fact, it's totally worthless. And it would still be totally worthless even if Marina WAS referring to the "Prayer Man" figure seen in the Darnell film. Because that figure cannot be positively identified as "Lee" (or anyone else) given its poor quality and low resolution.

It's also quite clear from the audio of LeDoux's telephone conversation with Marina Oswald in July of 2018 that Marina has no interest in reading the "Prayer Man" book that was sent to her by members of the "Prayer Man" online fraternity. She said to LeDoux very pointedly: "I'm not going to read that book".

So Marina certainly hasn't gleaned any knowledge from this book at all. And I have a feeling that she probably hasn't read a single thing about the "Prayer Man" theory---ever.

Plus, Marina mentions the name of "Billy Lovelady" during her brief telephone conversation with LeDoux [linked below], implying that she was still of the opinion at that time that the "Classic Lovelady Figure" (for lack of a better way to describe it) in the James Altgens photograph was the focus of LeDoux's interest, and not the "Prayer Man" figure.



It's very curious to me (based on that one article at the "Prayer Man" website) that anyone in the PM community could possibly think that Marina had, in fact, said that the Prayer Man figure was Lee Oswald, when she clearly seems to think that the "Billy Lovelady" figure in the TSBD doorway is the prime focus of Ed LeDoux's inquiry. And thusly, she mentions "Billy Lovelady" in her follow-up phone conversation with LeDoux above. I think she is saying that she thinks Lee is the Billy Lovelady figure. She's not saying the "Prayer Man" figure is Lee at all.

And I'll add this....

Based on the words that Marina used in her interviews with LeDoux, I'm going to guess that even if Marina Oswald HAS seen this image from Jimmy Darnell's film, she could very well STILL think that the "Prayer Man" image is the same as the "Billy Lovelady" image. Both figures, after all, are standing very close to each other in the west portion of the doorway. So if Marina hasn't "studied up" on the "Prayer Man" theory specifically (and it's pretty clear that she hasn't, based on her comments to LeDoux on the phone), she could very easily be merging the two "Doorway Man" figures into just one, with that one (in Marina's mind) being this man right here in the Altgens photo.

10 hours ago, Vanessa Loney said:

David, stick to the new evidence. It cancels out all that old 'evidence'. 

In your (wildest) dreams maybe.

48 minutes ago, B. A. Copeland said:

I suppose I meant that it is more possible (than it is not) that PM is not a stranger. It is “more plausible than its negation” that PM is an employee out on break like (mostly) everyone else on the stairs that day. It is more plausible than its negation that PM is LHO. Someone that close to the bldg. as if he’s grouped with other laborers and staff cannot and should not be ignored.

I can agree with your points here. You make sense. (Except for the part about it probably being LHO.)

But my previous point was ---- there's no way we can TOTALLY ELIMINATE the possibility of PM being a "stranger".

Just now, Bart Kamp said:

shows what your plan has been all along.....

And that would be.....?

4 minutes ago, Vanessa Loney said:

As Andrej has pointed out so well this stranger, who none of them saw, just happens to be identified by Marina as Lee and has the same height, weight, hair and clothes as Lee. How can it not be Lee?

This is how....

[Click....]

 

31 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

Besides Danny Garcia in CE1381

no strangers on the steps or inside the building

Big deal. You found ONE. Hooray for Kamp!

9 minutes ago, B. A. Copeland said:

PM could be a stranger but Murphy (and others) have masterfully eliminated that possibility for the most part in that legendary thread.

There is no possible way that Sean Murphy (or anyone else) could totally eliminate the POSSIBILITY of PM being a "stranger" instead of a "TSBD worker". Sean might THINK he's done the impossible there, but when reality sets in, the "stranger" angle will never be totally eliminated. How could it be? There were a lot of "strangers" on Elm Street that day (from a TSBD worker's POV). Far more strangers than TSBD workers, that's for sure. And yet Sean Murphy has (somehow) systematically eliminated from contention any possibility of one of those non-Depository "strangers" climbing to the top of the TSBD stairs and watching the motorcade from there???

Puh-lease!

9 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

When was Oswald's employment terminated?

Please don't tell me you're trying to imply what it looks like you might be trying to imply. Please.

1 hour ago, Vanessa Loney said:

David, 13 TSBD employees are on the steps and they manage to identify who is standing behind them, in front and beside them.

Well, Vanessa, as Tony Krome pointed out earlier (and he made a good point), Sarah Stanton failed to say that Buell Frazier was there. And we certainly know that he WAS there.

But the "Prayer Man" person could most certainly be a STRANGER. There's no reason why it COULDN'T be a "stranger", despite the protests of CTers saying that that is impossible.

CD706/CE1381 doesn't specifically say that all 73 of those employees saw no strangers OUTSIDE the confines of the building on Nov. 22. Most of them said they saw no strangers INSIDE the building. But do you think that statement is also meant to convey that they didn't see any unknown people standing on the steps of the building during the motorcade? I don't think it means that at all.

Therefore, IMO, the possibility (or even probability) of Mr. Prayer Person being a "stranger" is certainly still on the table.

Another "Ochus Campbell" Addendum (FWIW)....

While I was browsing through the witness statements in CD706, I came across this March 19, 1964, statement provided by TSBD Vice President Ochus V. Campbell, and I noticed that it dovetails nicely with Campbell's 11/24/63 FBI interview, with respect to Campbell saying (in both documents) that he had never seen Lee Harvey Oswald prior to the assassination. In his 3/19/64 statement specifically, Campbell said this:

"I have had occasion to view photographs of Lee Harvey Oswald and to the best of my recollection never saw him while he was employed by the Texas School Book Depository."

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

Who is Prayer Man?

Can't be a stranger as per your fave document.

So who is it?

Why on Earth can't it be a "stranger"? In the CE1381/CD706 document, it appears that all (or most) of the employees only stated that they had seen no strangers IN the building that day. That doesn't eliminate the possibility of a stranger mixing in with some of the TSBD employees out on the front steps, which are located, of course, OUTSIDE the building.

So, yes, "Prayer Man" could very possibly be a "stranger" indeed.

And please don't start up the nonsense about the front steps and entrance area of the building really being INSIDE the building itself. Because that argument is too nonsensical to keep talking about.

2 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

I answered this rubbish a week ago already

we know your aim is to go round and round again, but I am not playing

i live in a real world not Von Pein’s solitary bedsit

Go Home Kamp!

42 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

MR. GARRISON: As the result of the conversations with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, what did you do? 
RICHARD RANDOLPH CARR: I done as I was instructed, I shut my mouth.

Boy, were those plotters who were framing Oswald a bunch of lucky SOBs or what?

Everybody on the steps turns out to be subservient to the demands of Hoover's Almighty FBI.

And yet we still have NON-subservient "CT" witnesses popping up like S.M. Holland and Jean Hill and Marguerite Oswald and Lee Bowers and A.J. Millican (and many more).

But maybe it was only the "TSBD Workers" who bowed down to Hoover's cover-up demands, eh?

15 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

I just can't work out why they weren't staring at Oswald

And yet many other TSBD workers were able to recall the names of the other people who were standing around them out on the steps on 11/22 --- even in the midst of "a motorcade, a President, a First Lady, [and] gunfire". And yet none of those employees said a word about Lee Oswald being among them on the steps. Go figure.

The logical (and sensible) answer, of course, is ----- Lee was never out there in the first place.