David Von Pein

Tony,

As I mentioned earlier, that New York Herald Tribune story on 11/23 contains several errors re: things that were most definitely straightened out by the end of the day on Nov. 22 (esp. re: the Tippit murder).

I don't know if the NYHT was a morning or afternoon paper. Do you know? And what was that paper's reputation for accuracy (if you know)?

1 minute ago, Tony Krome said:

Whats interesting about this, is that in the wee hours of Saturday, 23rd Nov, the presses were printing the Campbell story. The story, that was related to a reporter, contains the phrase "a small storage room on the ground floor". This description could only have come from TSBD employee familiar with that small storage room on the ground floor or an officer that searched that same room. So, an employee/officer, whether it was the person connected with the story, Campbell or not, related the story on Friday afternoon/evening to a reporter.

I assume Vice President Ochus V. Campbell was not invited to the WC

And then, one day later....

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=65

Tony,

Do you think the last paragraph of that FBI report is something that Special Agents Hardin and Scott just made up?

Should I add "Hardin & Scott" to the CTers' L-i-a-r-s List?

16 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

No honest person can read that affidavit and then say it was the same as the second floor encounter except he got the floor wrong. 

That is a clear and deliberate misrepresentation of the evidence.

Bull Feces.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4oxRP0t5ZBM/Tvw52B7FIGI/AAAAAAAABwU/QbBHYHhIM4Q/s1200-h/Marrion-Baker-Affidavit.gif

Bye Bye, Jimmy.

(And it's not 3:30 AM. It's 4:30. Well, it's now 4:57.)

3 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

plus the fact that Baker never mentioned the second floor encounter in his original affidavit...

Baker mentioned it. He just got the floor number wrong. And it couldn't be more obvious that even Baker didn't know what floor he stopped LHO on, because he gave TWO possible floor numbers (3rd or 4th), both of which were wrong, of course....but the point is: He was unsure from Day 1 what floor it was.

Also....

Are you, Jim, saying that my last post (re: Baker's mindset as he ran into the building) is not a fairly reasonable assessment? If so, please state why it's not reasonable?

Tina Towner panned right past the front door of the TSBD in her home movie film. I'm just wondering how much "enhancing" and/or tweaking of the Towner Film has been done by the "Prayer Man" fraternity in order to find PM in that film? (Since I don't visit the PM site often, I'm not up to speed on any Towner Film restoration, etc.)

https://drive.google.com / Video File / The Towner Film

Also consider this....

To those people who believe that the "encounter" between Oswald and Officer Baker did occur in the "storage room" on the first floor....ask yourself this question:

Why would Officer Marrion Baker, who was attempting to catch a Presidential assassin who was (according to Baker's initial impression) located on the roof of the Book Depository Building, have had any desire whatsoever to make two right turns immediately after rushing into the building in order to stop someone who might have been located in that storage room, which is a room that is right next to the entrance to the building?! That would have been a crazy time-consuming thing to do at that particular time, if you ask me.

Baker couldn't possibly have had it in his mind to search an area that was RIGHT NEXT TO THE FRONT DOOR HE HAD JUST ENTERED! Especially since we know he was rushing toward the TOP floors of the building in order to get to the roof as soon as possible. Baker couldn't possibly have thought any assassin would have been located on the first floor, right next to the front door, at that moment in time (which was---what?---20 or 30 seconds after the last shot had been fired at President Kennedy?).

The things I just pointed out about Marrion L. Baker's probable mindset when he entered the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963, in my opinion provide some additional circumstantial evidence (via just ordinary common sense, if nothing else) that leads to the inevitable conclusion that the "Baker/Truly/Oswald encounter" most certainly did not occur near the building's front entrance.

A few more thoughts regarding the "Storage Room" discussion....

In the Warren Commission's scenario of Lee Oswald's movements on 11/22/63 (and I agree with it), Oswald would have been very near that storage room area as he came down that staircase from the second floor to the first floor. And he would have been there about 3 minutes after the shooting. So even if someone did see Oswald in that general location (or even IN the storage room itself, although I can't imagine WHY Oswald would want to go into that room at that moment in time when he was likely wanting to exit the building as quickly as he could), such a first-floor sighting just AFTER the assassination doesn't really conflict with the overall "Lone Assassin" scenario....because Oswald (per that "LN" scenario) DID use that staircase next to the storage room prior to LHO exiting the building via (probably) the front entrance at approx. 12:33 PM.

Now, via the corroborative testimony of both Roy Truly and Marrion Baker, we know for a fact that the Oswald/Baker/Truly encounter did not (and could not) have occurred in or near the "storage room" on the first floor (despite the article in the 11/23/63 DMN which claims it did occur there) ---- but as far as one or more potential witnesses possibly catching a glimpse of Oswald in or near that storage room after the assassination, that is something that's certainly not an impossibility at all.

But --- I am very skeptical about accepting the Ochus Campbell "first-floor sighting" (for the reasons previously stated).

Follow-Up regarding Ochus Campbell....

I now remember where I heard the name "Ochus V. Campbell" in relation to an alleged sighting of Lee Oswald shortly after the assassination....

It was when Jim Garrison mentioned such a sighting during his appearance on "The Tonight Show With Johnny Carson" on January 31, 1968. (Go to 22:15 in this video.)

In that 1968 interview, Garrison says that there is an article in the 11/22/63 Dallas afternoon paper which says that Ochus V. Campbell claimed to have seen Oswald on the first floor after the shooting.

Well, it just so happens I have a copy of that newspaper (the Times Herald) here at my home, so I looked through it, and I couldn't find the name "Ochus Campbell" mentioned anywhere. Plus, the name "Lee Harvey Oswald" is not mentioned in the 11/22/63 edition of The Dallas Times Herald either, and that's obviously because Oswald's identity wasn't revealed to the press (and to the world) until after 2:00 PM Dallas Time on Nov. 22, which means that that info came out after the evening Dallas paper went to press.

But it's possible that Garrison was really referring to the 11/23/63 Dallas Morning News, which I also happen to own a copy of, and that paper does mention the name of "O.V. Campbell" in an article on page 6 (see photo below).
 

Now, if, in fact, the above DMN article from November 23, 1963, is the exact article that Garrison was talking about during his interview with Johnny Carson, then Mr. Garrison had his facts mixed up considerably. Because that article doesn't say anything about Campbell seeing Oswald on the first floor. It does, however, provide further verification (as of the morning edition of the paper on Saturday, November 23rd) that Roy Truly (who is mentioned by name in the article) and "a Dallas policeman" had an encounter with Lee Harvey Oswald inside the Book Depository just after JFK was shot.

The article, however, incorrectly says the encounter took place "in a storage room on the first floor", which is information that will likely make many conspiracy theorists very happy, because they can now continue to pretend that Roy Truly and Marrion Baker lied their eyes out when they each later said they saw Oswald on the second floor and in the lunchroom (as opposed to seeing him in a "storage room on the first floor").

But it's quite obvious that that early report about the encounter in the Nov. 23 paper was merely mistaken about exactly where the encounter took place. It's either an innocent mistake or everybody will have to crawl into bed with the outer-fringe conspiracy theorists who love to call Roy S. Truly and Officer Baker l-i-a-r-s. Now, I ask, which of those two options is the most reasonable to embrace?

FOLLOW-UP #2....

After doing a little more digging on the Internet, I came up with the newspaper article that Jim Garrison was most likely referring to when he said what he said to Johnny Carson in 1968 concerning Mr. Ochus V. Campbell....

It's an article that appeared in the New York Herald Tribune on November 23, 1963, and it does, indeed, say that Campbell said he saw Oswald "in a small storage room on the ground floor" of the TSBD just after the assassination:



The above image from the New York Herald Tribune is an image I found at Vince Palamara's blog. (Thanks, Vince.) Vince got it from the Prayer Man website.

That New York newspaper article, however, needs to be evaluated with a large grain of salt by your side, because it is riddled with factual errors.

I think now might be a good time to repeat this segment of that FBI interview with Campbell that I linked to earlier....

"Mr. CAMPBELL observed a photograph of LEE HARVEY OSWALD...and stated that he is sure this is a photograph of the employee named above, but added that he is not personally acquainted with him and has never seen him."

So, on 11/23/63 (via the New York newspaper), Ochus Campbell supposedly says he positively saw Lee Harvey Oswald on the first floor of the Depository within a short time of the assassination. But then, the very next day (11/24/63), he is interviewed by two FBI agents and says he "has never seen" Lee Oswald before.

Somebody get me the Bufferin! I feel a headache coming on!

27 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

OMG Von Pein is cracking up and cracking us up now.

He is replying to Vanessa with the hilarious Brennan testimony and the dubious soda machine encounter.

Number four on his list has already been countered on this thread pretty effectively.

And Fritz's notes say Oswald was outside with Shelley.

DVP wants to just ignore the difference between what was in the notes and how the reports were then assembled.  In a court of law, one would use the notes to discredit the reports. 

Earth to DiEugenio....

Not everybody evaluates the JFK evidence the same way the Anybody But Oswald conspiracy theorists have decided to do.

IOW --- Unlike you, I don't feel obliged to call Captain Fritz and Howard Brennan and Marrion Baker and Roy Truly (et al) l-i-a-r-s.

14 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Ochus Campbell said he saw Oswald in the locker room just inside the vestibule door, just after the shooting.

Where on Earth did this revelation come from (and when)? It's the first I've ever heard of this.

And the above "sighting" of Oswald is particularly interesting considering the following statement made by the same Ochus Campbell in an FBI interview on November 24, 1963 [via Commission Document No. 5]....

"Mr. CAMPBELL observed a photograph of LEE HARVEY OSWALD...and stated that he is sure this is a photograph of the employee named above, but added that he is not personally acquainted with him and has never seen him." [DVP's emphasis]

Of course, we now need to ask: How in the world could Mr. Campbell have been so "sure" that the picture he was shown was definitely Oswald if Campbell had never before seen Oswald in his life?

~big shrug~

12 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Good point Vanessa!

It's only a "good point" if you want to assume that the accused assassin was not a great big l-i-a-r!

And why would anyone want to assume such a thing?

14 hours ago, Vanessa Loney said:

David, you've completely missed the point of this new evidence. It shows that Oswald gave an alibi that placed him out front and the authorities suppressed it by not taking a Statement from him to that effect.

Any permutation you want to go with in deconstructing the WC testimony of Holmes or Fritz is not going to turn out well for you. Because both of them got caught up in their own lies and made statements that don't support the official story but do indicate that Oswald gave an alibi.

Holmes is being asked about when the police officer (Baker) detained Oswald and instead of placing it on the 2nd floor clearly says it was on the first floor at the front of the building.

Fritz is also being asked about the 2nd floor encounter and claims that Oswald 'saw the excitement' something it would have been impossible for him to do if he was in the 2nd floor lunch room.

And now we have Hosty confirming that Oswald said he was outside.

And if Oswald DID say he was outside at the time of the assassination, it's a provable lie. Let's take an inventory....

1. Nobody testified that they saw Lee Harvey Oswald on the TSBD steps at 12:30 PM on 11/22.

2. Oswald was identified as the sixth-floor sniper by Howard Brennan (via Brennan's Warren Commission testimony that every CTer I've ever encountered has decided to throw out the window; that's their choice, of choice, to toss Brennan aside if they want to, but Howard's WC testimony is still going to be there---forever---just the same).

3. We know Oswald was near the back of the TSBD building, in the 2nd-floor lunchroom, within two minutes of the assassination (or less), even though the current Internet CT trend is to now totally throw out the "Lunchroom Encounter" entirely and pretend it never even happened. Which means, of course, those same CTers can now never again utilize the previous popular argument concerning the Lunchroom Encounter that most CTers have used for decades---i.e., the (totally inaccurate) argument about LHO not having enough time to get from Floor #6 to Floor #2 before encountering Officer Baker.

4. During his "Patsy" hallway statement at City Hall, Oswald admitted he was inside the building at the time the President was shot.

5. Oswald told Captain Fritz that he (Oswald) was inside the building, on the first floor, at about the time JFK was being shot [WCR, Page 600].

So, anyone who wants to build a case for "Prayer Man" being Lee Oswald must somehow ignore or successfully debunk each of the above five items. And I've yet to see any of those five things "debunked", let alone all five of them.

3 minutes ago, Vanessa Loney said:

I'll get to you in a minute Von Pein. 

Okay, Loney.

41 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

from this post on they will be treated with my silence.... 

Hopefully that means Kamp's constant whining will cease.

Thank the Maker!

LOL. Jimmy's all mixed up. He thinks he can take this testimony by Harry D. Holmes and somehow come to the conclusion that Oswald was outside the building at the time of JFK's assassination.... 

HARRY HOLMES -- "There was a commotion outside, which he [LHO] later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down."

The above testimony not only clearly indicates that Oswald was talking about a point in time that was AFTER the shooting, but it also clearly indicates (assuming Holmes has paraphrased Oswald's statements correctly) that Lee Oswald was NOT on the first floor at all when all this "commotion" was going on outside. Hence, we find the words "rushed downstairs" and "he didn't say whether he took the stairs down" and "he didn't say whether he took the elevator down".

Now, why on Earth would anyone (even a rabid Anybody-But-Oswald CTer like Los Angeles' own Jimmy DiEugenio) utilize such "rushed downstairs" testimony to try and support their belief that Lee Harvey Oswald was located outside on the front steps of the TSBD Building (or even on the first floor of that building) when the assassination was occurring in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63? That's crazy.

And, in fact, that precise testimony provided by Harry Holmes is used by Vincent Bugliosi in his book, as Vince tries to make the point that Oswald "slipped up" during his final interrogation session on 11/24/63 and accidentally placed himself on the sixth floor during the assassination....

• "During Sunday's interrogation Oswald slipped up and placed himself on the sixth floor at the time of the assassination. .... In his Sunday-morning interrogation he said that at lunchtime, one of the "Negro" employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he declined. .... He said before he could finish whatever he was doing, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and when he "WENT DOWNSTAIRS," a policeman questioned him as to his identification, and his boss stated that he was one of their employees. .... WHERE WAS OSWALD AT THE TIME THE NEGRO EMPLOYEE INVITED HIM TO LUNCH, AND BEFORE HE DESCENDED TO THE SECOND-FLOOR LUNCHROOM? [Answer:] The sixth floor." [All emphasis Bugliosi's.] -- Vincent Bugliosi; Page 957 of "Reclaiming History"

-------------------------

Let me also add this other relevant testimony from Harry Holmes (which CTers will likely try to ignore)....

DAVID W. BELIN -- "Did anyone say anything about Oswald saying anything about his leaving the Texas School Book Depository after the shooting?"

HARRY D. HOLMES -- "He said, as I remember, actually, in answer to questions there, he mentioned that when lunchtime came, one of the Negro employees asked him if he would like to sit and each lunch with him, and he said, "Yes, but I can't go right now." He said, "You go and take the elevator on down." No, he said, "You go ahead, but send the elevator back up." He didn't say up where, and he didn't mention what floor he was on. Nobody seemed to ask him. You see, I assumed that obvious questions like that had been asked in previous interrogation. So I didn't interrupt too much, but he said, "Send the elevator back up to me." Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about." And he wouldn't tell what happened then."

MR. BELIN -- "Did he [Oswald] say where he was at the time of the shooting?"

MR. HOLMES -- "He just said he was still up in the building when the commotion-- he kind of----"

MR. BELIN -- "Did he gesture with his hands, do you remember?"

MR. HOLMES -- "He talked with his hands all the time. He was handcuffed, but he was quiet---well, he was not what you call a stoic phlegmatic person. He is very definite with his talk and his eyes and his head, and he goes like that, you see."

-------------------------

Replay.....

"He just said he was still up in the building when the commotion..."

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Did not the notes of Will Fritz say that Oswald said he was out front with Shelly [sic]?

That could not have been after since Shelly [sic] was not out front at that time, right?  He and Lovelady said they ran across the street.

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/10/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1052.html#Out-With-Bill-Shelley-In-Front

James Bookhout's FBI report aligns with Fritz' "Shelley" note, with Bookhout filling in more of the details about what Oswald MEANT when the topic of "out with Bill Shelley in front" came up during Captain Fritz' interrogation of Lee Oswald. Bookhout's report on Page 619 of the Warren Report makes it quite clear that when Oswald told Fritz that he "went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley", Oswald was unquestionably referring to a point in time that was AFTER the assassination of President Kennedy and also definitely AFTER the second-floor lunchroom encounter that Oswald had with Marrion Baker and Roy Truly as well.

13 hours ago, Vanessa Loney said:

David, I'm referring to Fritz and Holmes WC testimony. I'm sure you know it.

Holmes said that Oswald said he 'had come out to this front part' at 'the front entrance to the first floor'.... That is the TSBD doorway.

Fritz said that Oswald said he came outside and 'saw all the excitement'. Oswald couldn't have seen the excitement from the 2nd floor lunchroom. It was windowless.

You must be joking with this.

In both of those testimony excerpts, Holmes and Fritz are clearly referring to a time which was AFTER the assassination had taken place, not WHILE the shooting was occurring. That fact couldn't be clearer.

So, as I said yesterday (and it seems I was correct)....

"I don't know where you got the idea that the specific "Presidential Parade" statement shows up anywhere in the notes or reports of J.W. Fritz and Harry Holmes. As far as I know, neither Fritz nor Holmes said anything about LHO saying he watched the "P. Parade"."

From the Hosty/Bookhout report:

"Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed this building." [WCR, page 613]

From Captain Fritz' report:

"I asked him what part of the building he was in at the time the President was shot, and he said that he was having his lunch about that time on the first floor." [WCR; page 600]
 

7 minutes ago, Vanessa Loney said:

We now have 3 investigators confirming that Oswald claimed to be outside when the President passed by. 

Again....

Where did Fritz and Holmes "confirm" this? What notes? What report? Please cite the links. I don't think either man ever said any such thing.

15 minutes ago, Vanessa Loney said:

Holmes, Fritz and now Hosty confirm that in his interrogation Oswald said he was watching the Presidential parade.

That is Oswald's alibi as presented by Holmes, Fritz and Hosty. 

Do you agree that is a fact?

Well, if Oswald actually made the statement about going out to watch the parade (which, of course, as mentioned earlier, would merely be another of LHO's lies), then such a statement SHOULD show up in some of the notes of the people who were there to hear such a statement. So there's nothing unusual about that.

But....

I don't know where you got the idea that the specific "Presidential Parade" statement shows up anywhere in the notes or reports of J.W. Fritz and Harry Holmes. As far as I know, neither Fritz nor Holmes said anything about LHO saying he watched the "P. Parade".

Please provide the citations for Fritz and Holmes saying any such thing. Thanks.

(And Fritz' "Out with Bill Shelley in front" note certainly doesn't qualify.)

1 minute ago, Vanessa Loney said:

Your methodology is unsound David. It has inherent bias.

I prefer to think of it this way, Vanessa....

My methodology has inherent facts.

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/Oswald's Lies (Part 2)

On 2/11/2019 at 3:32 AM, Vanessa Loney said:

So your position is that in all his other statements Oswald was lying but in this video he was telling the truth?

What is your rationale for that?

Oswald didn't lie about everything. He told the truth when he felt that telling the truth wouldn't incriminate him in any way. Such as when he admitted that he took a bus and a cab to his roominghouse just after the assassination. And he told the truth when he told Captain Fritz that his normal working hours at the TSBD were from 8:00 AM to 4:45 PM. And he told the truth about having lived in New Orleans prior to coming to Dallas. None of those truthful facts incriminated him as a double murderer---so he didn't need to lie about them.

But whenever the subject turned to something connected directly to the murders of JFK and Officer Tippit, then Oswald turned into a Lying Machine. He lied when he said he didn't own a rifle. He lied when he said he never had said a word to Buell Frazier about wanting to go to Irving on 11/21 to get curtain rods. He lied when he said he didn't bring a large-ish package into the Depository on the morning of 11/22. He lied when he said the Backyard Photos were fakes. And he lied in that video above when he said he was "Just a patsy". And, of course, he lied when he said he never shot anyone.

But since conspiracists seem to think Lee Harvey was telling nothing but the truth in his many statements after his arrest, then they must think Lee was being truthful when he told the press at 7:55 PM CST on 11/22 that he was INSIDE the building when the President was being shot, right? CTers surely can't believe he was outside on the steps but decided to LIE to the reporters and say he was inside, correct? That would be a fairly silly thing for Mr. Oswald to want to do (and a silly thing for any CTer to believe), wouldn't it?

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/Oswald's Lies (Part 1)

5 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

Rubbish, the chatter has been mega. You yourself made sure of that on FB with yer mates. You are a terrible fibber.

What was my "fib", Bart?

Just because the "chatter" is there, so what? That's supposed to mean the LNers are sunk???

Get real, man. Your theories are anything but "real" right now.

Yeah, Joe, looks like it's time for Langley to dig deep and dish up another hefty raise for Francois and myself, huh?

Our dastardly job of "obscuring the new evidence" is surely worth a few more bucks, right?