Richard Hocking

It might be helpful at this point to note there are several component discussions in this thread.

The first two focus on the figure seen in Weigman and Darnell:

1. Identifying Prayer Man

2. The light “reflection” area by PM’s hands: Is PM holding something?

Several other discussions have evolved from the implications of Oswald as Prayer Man:

3. Oswald seen in the small Storage room in the front Lobby

4. Oswald/Truly/Baker encounter in the entrance or 1^st floor lobby

5. Oswald/Truly/Baker encounter in the 2^nd floor Lunchroom area

6. Oswald 2^nd floor encounter with Mrs. Reid

7. Baker encounter with suspect on 4^th floor (from his first day affidavit)

8. Baker stairs/ or elevator/ or combination to the roof

9. Oswald leaving the TSBD (from the title of the thread)

An excerpt from one of Baker's Warren Commission sessions that may fit into Sean's discussion of Baker/elevator/stairs.

from http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page267.php

There is some interesting interaction between Senator Cooper and Mr. Belin.

[begin Excerpt]

...

Mr. Baker. No; from the street in. As I ran in I was pushing them aside and running through them, and some way, Mr. Truly got from my back to my front.
Now, he said he was right behind me. I never did see him until I got in and asked the question of where the stairs was, so evidently whenever I went in the door why he came on in. There were several people coming in as I, you know, came in, there were several in front of me and also around my sides and my back. And it seemed to me like a double door deal. Senator Cooper. As you went up on the elevator could you see out of the elevator onto floors? Mr. Baker. Yes, sir. The best that I could, that is the reason I wasn't paying too much attention to the elevator I was looking around all those floors. Senator Cooper. Did you see anyone? Mr. Belin. When you say up on the elevator, he didn't get on the elevator until he had got up on the stairs. Senator Cooper. I am aware of that. Mr. Baker. I was still looking. Senator Cooper. You went up on the second floor by stairs? Mr. Baker. Yes, sir. Senator Cooper. Then you got on the elevator. Mr. Belin. No, sir; he didn't get on the elevator until the fifth floor. Senator Cooper. Anyway, as you walked up the stairs could you see into each floor space as you passed from floor to floor? Mr. Baker. Partly. Now, this building has got pillars in it, you know, and then it has got books, cases of books stacked all in it. And the best that I could, you know, I would look through there and see if I could see anybody. Senator Cooper. Did you see anyone? Mr. Baker. No, sir. Senator Cooper. When you looked? Mr. Baker. Not from the second floor on up. ... [end of excerpt]

A reasonable question Robin.

Although PM is not in direct sunlight, Dealey Plaza was full of reflective surfaces. The windows on the buildings, cars, and the reflecting pools would have provided multiple sources for indirect sunlight into the alcove.

And we could also be looking at artifacts,

[best Charles Laughton]

Mr. Hocking, could we not?

Veddey well, M'Lud,

I rest my case!

Ray, the Weigman film certainly has it's share of artifacts. The persistence of the image, however, throughout the entire clip should rule out any possibility of being an artifact. And it shows up clearly again in Darnell.

question:

Since prayer man appears to be back in the shadows, how does the sun reach the ( camera lense, coke bottle bottom ? ) to make a sunlight reflection ?

A reasonable question Robin.

Although PM is not in direct sunlight, Dealey Plaza was full of reflective surfaces. The windows on the buildings, cars, and the reflecting pools would have provided multiple sources for indirect sunlight into the alcove.

Several popular cameras of that era, Hasselblad and Rolleiflex to name two expensive ones, had cranks on the right hand side to advance the film. I'm remembering three or four cranks, but maybe Robin or another photographic expert could tell us how many cranks are required on some of these cameras.

To reiterate from a previous post, I'm exploring the possibility that Oswald was actively trying to prevent the assassination, and he probably didn't know if his efforts were going to be successful. Pure speculation: Suspecting that he would be shot on the spot if he was at his assigned location in the building, he was absent, and should have been establishing an alibi for himself at that critical moment. From the footage of Prayer Man that we see, it seems reasonable to speculate that that might be Oswald standing in the shadows, cranking his Rollei for all he's worth, quickly taking as many photographs of the activity around him as he could, and occasionally turning the camera on himself to insure that his own image would be in the middle of the film strip. With a piece of evidence like that, there's only one place he could have been at that time.

Continuing to speculate, Oswald was taking photos in the shadows because the sun was in front of him, not photographing the motorcade, especially, but the people gathered in front of him, people he knew and people that would know exactly where they were at those moments. And since his camera was a double lens with a crank and the viewfinder on the top, he would need to hold the camera high to capture as many people as possible.

A critical element of his photo alibi would be interspersing pictures of his very own face. Being a photographer and having thought hard about his alibi, he was prepared. He could not take the time to adjust the shutter speed between shots of himself and shots of the other witnesses, so he would need a small flashlight to light his face, and as any old-time backyard mechanic knows, the best place to store your little flashlight to keep your hands free is your mouth. When shooting himself, of course, the flashlight comes out of the mouth and is held next to the camera.

Flashlight in mouth - hence the white spot we see in the middle of Prayer Mans face?

If it had been me, I would have put the flashlight in my shirt pocket and sung "She'll be Comin' Round the Mountain" at the top of my lungs.

Tom, I think you have stated the most likely motive for PM/Oswald having a camera; an alibi.

If LHO was indeed taking photos from the front entrance, we can be equally sure that evidence would never see the light of day.

Given our knowledge that nobody else in the stair group was taking pictures or had a camera with them, we could make another statement with a high degree of confidence: If PM is holding a camera, it is strong evidence that Oswald is Prayer Man.

Having noted that, I am still leaning more toward the object in PM's hands being a coke.

Here a closeup crop of the Wiegman film:

Superb stuff, Martin.

Looks to me like Prayer Man's right hand is significantly higher than his left here.

Contrast the 'join' in Darnell:

My money is still on a Coca-Cola--taking a swig in Wiegman, return to two-hand clasp by Darnell.

Yes Sean, you are correct. My idea of a camera in his hand is apparently invalid.

Has someone created an overview in map to show all the people in the doorway?

To me it looks like Prayerman was standing directly at the wall but not on the top pedestal.

Most likely one step lower.

When looking closely at the stable Darnell (not Couch as i stated falsely) sequence from me

i see the right glass door being operated. Opended most likely. But thats just a side note.

best to you

Martin

Martin,

I agree with your observation. Prayer Man looks like he is standing one step from the top.

from Sean's post above:

"... The shocking answer is given to us courtesy of three people who worked in the TSBD building:

Vicki Adams.

Sandra Styles.

Bonnie Ray Williams.

Here's what they tell us:

Baker and Truly never took the stairs up from the first floor.

They took one of the rear elevators."

One other name can be added to that list. Otis Williams.

"Fact is, as soon as the third shot happened, and everybody commenced milling around, I thought it came from the underpass. I entered the building immediately, climbed up the stairs where the warehouse elevator was which led to the 6th floor and went up to the 4th floor, which was the first one I could see from to see the underpass.

After I got up there and saw that nothing was going on on the underpass, I turned around and came back down to the office, and called my wife. Soon, while we were talking, people came in, officers rushed in, and I had to get off the phone.

I could have gone down the steps while Oswald came down, but he came down on the elevator. Anyway, I walked down the steps and didn't see him or anything."

- quoted from No More Silence, by Larry Sneed, pp 117-118

Williams and Adams/Styles do not mention seeing anyone, including each other.

I Italicized "but he came down on the elevator" , as being a peculiar thing for Williams to say.

Martin, I was thinking that it looked like a person taking pictures as well. IMO, he had to get in the shade to do so, because otherwise in the sunlight he would only get glare and would be unable to see what he was attempting to get a picture of. As much as I think that prayerman looks like Oswald and thought we had the smoking gun, I do believe a camera in his hands would remove him from consideration. (that is, of course, if it is a camera that he is holding)

I applaud your open-mindedness, and your willingness to go where the evidence leads. But there are some other considerations, and I think we need to re-evaluate the conclusion you reached.

If we assume for this discussion that Prayer Man is holding a camera, we would have to account for the following:

1. No one in the Stair Group mentions having a camera in their testimony. Specifically, none of the men, including Shelley, Lovelady, Williams, Molina or Frazier. No one mentions seeing someone on the steps taking pictures.

2. No picture has ever emerged from that specific location. A picture of the motorcade from that location would have received a great deal of attention and probable press coverage.

3. We have already debunked the notion that a stranger could have stood unnoticed in the stair group, let alone a stranger with a camera.

4. There is a high probability that the authorities would have taken the camera as evidence and examined the film, ala Moorman, Babushka Lady, and others.

What about the possiblity that Oswald had brought his camera? We know he previously worked at Jagger-Chiles-Stovall, that he was knowledgeable and had an interest in photography. This is probably the only scenario that might hold some water. There are some difficulties with this, in that no one in the Oswald interviews (Fritz, Hosty, Bookhout, Holmes, etc) reports any discussion of Lee having a camera with him that day.

From my viewpoint, a camera is much harder to account for than a coke.

Edit: Replace "JCS" with Jagger-Chiles-Stovall, for clarity

For Oswald to be Prayer Man,

and

for the second-floor lunchroom incident to have really happened as described by Baker and Truly to the WC,

there is only one realistic scenario available....

Why would the Oswald of this scenario want to keep tabs on Baker & Truly's progress? The answer hardly needs spelling out.

Since I am the class dunce,

who naively believes in the complete innocence of Prayer Man Lee

you will have to spell it out for me.

Ray,

I think Sean has described one reasonable scenario: LHO saw Baker and Truly run by and goes to the 2nd floor to check their progress.

I disagree with Sean that there is only one realistic scenario.

As I described a few posts above there is at least one other possible scenario. Roughly during the same time interval that Oswald is seen upstairs near the lunchroom/ or by Reid's desk, Officer Mooney encounters the two unidentified men coming down the stairs to the 2nd floor. There are a couple possibilities here:

1. Oswald is supposed to rendevous with these two men. Use your imagination to think of a reason why.

2. Oswald is freaked out by what he witnessed out on the steps and is seeking out these two men to find out what the hell happened up there.

But for either #1 or #2, Lee would have to have known in advance that something was going on.

I am not claiming that I believe these are anything more than possibilites, at least for now.

Deputy Sheriff Mooney testified to the WC that he believed the two men coming down the stairs were also plainclothes deputy sheriffs. He does not identify who they were, nor does he say whether he asked them for credentials.

Were these two men ever identified?

No.

For Oswald to be Prayer Man,

and

for the second-floor lunchroom incident to have really happened as described by Baker and Truly to the WC,

there is only one realistic scenario available....

Why would the Oswald of this scenario want to keep tabs on Baker & Truly's progress? The answer hardly needs spelling out.

Since I am the class dunce,

who naively believes in the complete innocence of Prayer Man Lee

you will have to spell it out for me.

Ray,

I think Sean has described one reasonable scenario: LHO saw Baker and Truly run by and goes to the 2nd floor to check their progress.

I disagree with Sean that there is only one realistic scenario.

As I described a few posts above there is at least one other possible scenario. Roughly during the same time interval that Oswald is seen upstairs near the lunchroom/ or by Reid's desk, Officer Mooney encounters the two unidentified men coming down the stairs to the 2nd floor. There are a couple possibilities here:

1. Oswald is supposed to rendevous with these two men. Use your imagination to think of a reason why.

2. Oswald is freaked out by what he witnessed out on the steps and is seeking out these two men to find out what the hell happened up there.

But for either #1 or #2, Lee would have to have known in advance that something was going on.

I am not claiming that I believe these are anything more than possibilites, at least for now.

One more passing thought ...

Regarding Oswald's location in/near the 2nd floor floor lunchroom area following the shooting.

Just after Officer Mooney leaves the 2nd floor and starts up the steps, he encounters two unidentified men in plain clothes coming down the steps.

Oswald may have been a few short steps away from a possible encounter with these individuals.

Edited: to correct the Officers name

Hello Sean

It is encouraging to see that you are a researcher who maintains an open mind on the degree of involvement Oswald had in the assassination. While I do not think it likely, it is entirely possible Oswald knew all about the assassination and, while he might not have been a shooter, he might have had other roles to play. For that matter, I am even willing to entertain he was a federal agent engaged in infiltrating groups involved in whatever.

With this in mind, let us take your last scenario about Prayer Man/Oswald and go a bit further. To do so, it must be assumed Prayer Man is holding a camera, likely a movie camera.

If he is filming, is he not in the worst possible place, deep in the shadows, to catch the assassination on film? Maybe so, but what if there was a glitch in the operation and the assassination took place in the wrong spot? Let me explain.

If I was planning an assassination with rifles at a moving target, and I wanted to assure its success, I would concentrate the rifle fire at the place where my target was slowed to an absolute crawl. Between Houston St. and the Triple Underpass, where would that spot be? There is only one answer, the 120° turn from Houston St. onto Elm St. By the time the limo has reached the Stemmons Freeway sign, it is on a relatively straight stretch of road, picking up speed going downhill and, most important, able to make a quick getaway. No, that great sled of a Lincoln was completely vulnerable and almost at a standstill while making the turn.

Now, if we look at Prayer Man as an observer and recorder of this event, it makes much more sense. From deep in the shadows on the steps, he has a ringside seat of any event taking place on the corner.

So, what happened to the plan and when did Oswald know he was set up? To answer this, we have to assume Oswald was told all of the shots would be coming from the Dal-Tex Building and the County Records Building. In the time it took Baker to run to the TSBD, Oswald may have heard witnesses speaking about seeing a rifle on the 6th floor above him plus witnesses speaking of JFK being shot so much further down Elm St. If he was the only conspirator in the TSBD, and as intelligent as it is claimed he was, it may not have taken him very long to realize he had likely been set up to take the fall, especially so if he had any inkling there was a rifle in the TSBD.

Why did he go to the 2nd floor? It is possible he felt exposed on the 1st floor and needed somewhere more secluded to get his thoughts together and come up with a new plan. That plan, I believe, was for him to walk out the front door a few minutes later.

Some very interesting thoughts in there, Robert. I think he may have nipped into the front-of-house storage room for just the reason you are giving for a purported trip upstairs to the lunchroom: to get his thoughts together and come up with a new plan.

I personally doubt that Oswald knew all about the assassination, but I do imagine he was implicated in some way. Otherwise the trap that was laid would not have snapped down so viciously and tightly on him. I believe the Prayer Man frames in Wiegman and Darnell may well be showing us a man in sudden deep shock.

My point about the scenario I laid out--Oswald following Baker & Truly upstairs--is not that I believe this is what happened (I don't) but that it is the all but necessary consequence of believing both that Oswald is Prayer Man and the lunchroom incident happened. Those buying into both elements may sincerely believe that their position is doubly supportive of Oswald's innocence: what could be sinister about standing on the steps watching the motorcade or buying a Coca-Cola? The problem is that these two actions, when combined in very quick succession, become problematical.

The bolded portions above echo my own sentiments regarding Oswald's behavior and Prayer Man's appearance in Darnell and Weigman. Going back to "Secure Location" psychology, PM/Oswald goes from a secure position in the corner of the entrance alcove to another secure position in the storage room under the stairs.

Another consideration regarding the Coke issue, Sean: LHO's first visit to the Coke machine would have been under less stressful circumstances before the motorcade arrived. After the shooting, it is possible Oswald was stressed, and decided to make another trip to the 2nd floor. This did not necessarily entail purchasing another coke if he already had one in hand.

The 2nd trip to the second floor lunch room area may simply have been because he figured other employees would gather there, or it may have had a more strategic motive he adopted after gathering his thoughts near the Storage Closet on the first floor.

As for Prayer Man's behaviour being no different from that of others near his location, that is true, at least up to a point. But it stops being true up to any point the instant he quits the spot in urgent quest of a coke.

For all we know, Sean, some or all of the others in the Geneva Hines group

also got cokes.

Can you prove they did not?

An interesting observation. The only sodas I am aware of in the TSBD witness testimonies are the Dr. Pepper on the sixth floor (linked to BRW) and the alleged Coke that LHO was holding. After finding the empty Dr. Pepper near the SE Sixth Floor Window, it seems reasonable that investigators should have been seeking info on all personnel that had purchased soft drinks from the machines that day. This would have included some thorough questioning of Geneva Hine, who regularly made change for those purchases.

They (Baker, Truly, and Reid) wouldn't have lied about the location of the encounter (and Oswald's subsequent passing through the office) for no reason.

The only logical reason for them to lie about the location was to help frame Oswald.

It follows then that

if they were trying to frame Oswald,

1) they wouldn't have picked a location for the encounter that failed to support Oswald's guilt, and actually suggested his innocence.

2) they wouldn't have described Oswald's demeanor as calm.

3) they would have offered support for the fiber evidence by claiming Oswald was wearing the brown shirt whose fibers were found on the rifle.

4) Mrs. Reid would have remembered Oswald's words to her, and they would have been either mysterious or incriminating.

It just doesn't make sense that they would go to such great lengths to fabricate a story with such little payoff...particularly when they had no idea at that time if anyone had seen Oswald outside.

Pat, I never said Baker, Truly or Reid were trying to or wished to frame Oswald. They probably had no personal desire whatsoever to see Oswald framed.

Baker & Truly would have fallen in with the lunchroom story simply because they were leaned on heavily by the authorities who were desperate to deprive Oswald of his alibi--and Reid in turn would have been leaned on by Truly & Ochus Campbell, who were desperate simply to cover their own asses. Did the improvised story foresee and tie up all loose ends? Of course not. It would be naive--and anachronistic--to expect it would.

Can you suggest a location other than the second-floor lunchroom to which the incident might have been better relocated?

And do you really believe Oswald hurried upstairs to buy a coke immediately after becoming aware that shots had been fired at the President? If so, how do you explain his calm demeanour as described by Baker and Truly?

Sean,

Regarding the suggestion that the first floor encounter between Baker and Oswald was in fact moved to the second floor:

The motive would have been to get LHO away from a group that had been watching the motorcade at the time of the shots, to a higher floor that could be designated as part of his escape route. The problem was that there were witnesses who had seen Oswald on the 2nd floor during the time frame in question. The second floor was the highest floor the encounter could be moved to that would not blatantly contradict other witness testimony. It would have been a simple adjustment to insert the Baker/Oswald encounter in prior to the encounter with Reid. IOW, Reid does not have to be lying. Truly and Baker were the only witnesses who needed to alter their testimony in this scenario.

Fritz's notes say that Lee said he was

"out with Bill Shelley in front,"

As Richard Hocking points out, the only time he could have been out front with Shelley

was prior to and during the actual shooting, because Shelley left the front steps immediately after

and went to explore the grassy knoll.

It is a long time since I seriously studied the interrogation reports, but I propose a theory and invite pot-shots from members:

This answer by Oz does not appear in Hosty or Bookhout, correct?

If not, why not?

I suggest it happened BEFORE Hosty and Bookhout arrived,

and so the FBI reports are foggy because Hosty and Bookhout are relying on what Fritz told them.

I thought I'd run that up the flagpole

and see if anyone salutes!

"out with Bill Shelley in front," when taken in context

What context are you referring to Pat?

, suggests Oswald told Fritz he saw Bill Shelley when leaving the building. Some have tried to twist it into being a claim by Oswald he was out front at the time of the shooting.

Nearly everyone agrees that Fritz's notes are vague. The placement, however, of Oswald being near Shelley is not. And there is a very limited window when Oswald could have been in the company of Shelley.

The possibility does exist that Prayer Man is Oswald. But we've been over this and that doesn't make a lot of sense, seeing as none of those present recalled such a thing.

This issue was discussed earlier in this very thread by Sean, myself and others. We decided there were visible suggestions in the film and photo record that Prayer Man could have made a late entry to the back of the stairs while the attention of the other TSBD employees on the stairs were focused on the Motorcade approaching, passing them, and then the subsequent chaos when the shots were fired.

Of course, one could say they all lied.

We can not rule out the possibility that some individuals may have lied. But another alternative is that many in the group never turned around to see who was behind them during those moments after the Presidential Limo turned onto Elm.

Ha. I watched the Newsroom on HBO last night. It dealt with a producer who'd edited an interview to suit his needs.

Now I see that Richard has added the comment "The possibility does exist that Prayer Man is Oswald." into his post as if it was something I wrote, so that he could comment on this possibility. It's something I might have written. But I didn't write it.

And it changed the context of what I was writing about.

And now I see that Ray has corrected "my typos" and changed the word "Oswald" to the word "Baker" when he responded to another post, when in fact there was no typo and I meant to write Oswald.

It's more than a bit ironic, IMO, that I just wrote a post about words, and how they are imprecise and often misinterpreted, and here I find my imprecise posts misinterpreted.

When I wrote "But we've been over this and that doesn't make a lot of sense, seeing as none of those present recalled such a thing" some assumed I was talking about "Prayer Man" when I was actually referring to Fritz's notes, which I discussed with Fetzer ad nauseum earlier in the year.

So let me be clear. I find the possibility Oswald was Prayer Man intriguing. I find the possibility Baker and Truly noticed Oswald as they entered the building, and then lied about it, and then moved this encounter to a place STILL suggesting Oswald's innocence, and then got Mrs. Reid to lie about it in statements not only suggesting Oswald's innocence, but government complicity in framing Oswald (via the shirt fibers) silly.

Pat, I made a mistake in composing my reply to your post. I incorrectly located one of my statements into a grouping with yours. My apologies. Definitely not intentional. I will edit the post to relocate the statement into my own statements.

...

Hello Richard

I have watched the film three or four times now and I must admit, it is a bit difficult to make out details in this film. Is that Prayer Man or Lovelady that seems to dominate the top of the steps in this film?

Robert,

I should have qualified my original statement better to say the "man who appears to be Prayer Man".

This clip was certainly filmed later than the Weigman clip we have been viewing in this thread. There are more police arriving at the front entrance of the TSBD. So it's safe to say Lovelady would be long gone by now.

The resolution is bad, but I have no problem seeing the right arm and hand.

The left hand is the one I am more interested in.

I believe there is an aspect ratio issue with the Darnell frames we have been looking at, with width being flattered somewhat.

This may be making Prayer Man look a little bulkier than he really is.

Look for instance at how brawny the man in the white cowboy suit (back to camera) looks in Darnell (look at those big arms!):

Now look at the same man in Wiegman--he looks so much more slight:

Aspect ratio really does matter in these things. It was for instance the reason some people thought the rather gorilla-esque 'Lovelady' in the Martin film couldn't possibly be the real Lovelady.

Here is what happens to Prayer Man with a 10% reduction in the width of the Darnell frame (without corresponding reduction in height):

**

Would anyone here--Robin? Martin?--have the know-how to look at this aspect ratio issue in a more systematic fashion?

Hello Sean

If that is a bottle of Coke that Payer Man is holding, it still bothers me that, in both pictures, he appears to be holding it with both hands. Does this seem normal?

As I stated earlier in this thread, the posture reminds me of the stance my late father used to assume after he bought his first 8 mm home movie camera in the early 60's and he was out in public looking for something to film. We used to say he looked like a vulture waiting for something to die.

Robert, The YouTube film clip that William Kelly linked to shows Prayer Man in the first segment.

Prayer Man lowers his right hand down to his side. There also appears to be upward movement with his left hand moving closer to his face.

If you have time to take a look at it, I would be interested in your take.

Hello Richard

Are you referring to the link Mr. Kelly posted in the first post of this thread?

Yes.

Here is the link:

▶ L.H. Oswald Leaving TSBD November 22 1963? - YouTube

I believe there is an aspect ratio issue with the Darnell frames we have been looking at, with width being flattered somewhat.

This may be making Prayer Man look a little bulkier than he really is.

Look for instance at how brawny the man in the white cowboy suit (back to camera) looks in Darnell (look at those big arms!):

Now look at the same man in Wiegman--he looks so much more slight:

Aspect ratio really does matter in these things. It was for instance the reason some people thought the rather gorilla-esque 'Lovelady' in the Martin film couldn't possibly be the real Lovelady.

Here is what happens to Prayer Man with a 10% reduction in the width of the Darnell frame (without corresponding reduction in height):

**

Would anyone here--Robin? Martin?--have the know-how to look at this aspect ratio issue in a more systematic fashion?

Hello Sean

If that is a bottle of Coke that Payer Man is holding, it still bothers me that, in both pictures, he appears to be holding it with both hands. Does this seem normal?

As I stated earlier in this thread, the posture reminds me of the stance my late father used to assume after he bought his first 8 mm home movie camera in the early 60's and he was out in public looking for something to film. We used to say he looked like a vulture waiting for something to die.

Robert, The YouTube film clip that William Kelly linked to shows Prayer Man in the first segment.

Prayer Man lowers his right hand down to his side. There also appears to be upward movement with his left hand moving closer to his face.

If you have time to take a look at it, I would be interested in your take.

What do Joe Molina, Carl Edward Jones, Roy Edward Lewis, and Prayer Man all have in common?

No one else in the "Step Group" testified these individuals were on the steps.

Nice one Richard!

i Have no doubt that Prayer man was there,

and I am assuming there is no reason to doubt that the others you mention were there.

Since this is such a great thread, and you seem to have done the homework, perhaps you would elaborate, for the sake of completeness.

Ray,

Joe Molina is a good example. He gave his location as being on the top step of the entrance. He mentions Otis Williams standing next to him to his left, and Pauline Sanders being "close to there". He also mentioned seeing Roy Truly and Mr. Campbell standing together. But in Otis Williams FBI Statement of 3/19/64, he cannot recall who was standing on either side of him that day. Campbell did vouch for Sanders being out near him.

As for Sanders, the only person she mentions being out on the steps with her is Sarah Stanton. Truly and Campbell likewise fail to mention Molina's name.

Jones and Lewis also give specific information concerning their locations and who they were near. No one mentions either one of their names as being in the "Stair Group".

So are we to believe, Molina, Jones, Lewis, and Prayer Man were not on the steps?

It has been suggested numerous times that the failure of witnesses to include a certain individual in their testimony is proof that individual was not present. I was simply trying to illustrate the faulty logic.

Some have tried to twist it into being a claim by Oswald he was out front at the time of the shooting. But we've been over this and that doesn't make a lot of sense, seeing as none of those present recalled such a thing.

Since nobody there noticed Prayer Man either, I submit that argument falls of its own weight.

Exactly.

And let's bear in mind that Oswald at this point is not someone whose presence will be especially noticed. He's still a couple of hours away from becoming one of the most (in)famous men on the planet. It's not as if anyone is going to be looking around going, 'Gee, I wonder if Lee Harvey Oswald's here'.

Lee was not a real attention-grabber before 12:30 on November 22, 1963. Going through the TSBD witness testimonies, many of the employees had either never met him or never talked to him. A very low profile guy.

What do Joe Molina, Carl Edward Jones, Roy Edward Lewis, and Prayer Man all have in common?

No one else in the "Step Group" testified these individuals were on the steps.

On 23 September 1964 Roy Truly and Marrion Baker were asked to go back on the record to clarify an important point: was Oswald on his own in the second-floor lunchroom when they saw him just after the assassination? There had been press reports--based in large part upon statements made by Jesse Curry on 11/23/63--that Oswald was with others in the room when the officer came in.

Baker dictated a statement to FBI Special Agent Richard J. Burnett. It has become notorious because of a certain deletion evident in Burnett's handwritten sheet:

Why did Baker originally say "drinking a coke", only to have it crossed out and the deletion initialled ("M.L.B.")?

Is not this little slip compelling evidence that--contrary to what Baker and Truly testified to the WC--Oswald had already bought the coke by the time of the incident? And does this not bear out Oswald's claim in custody (as reported by Fritz and Bookhout) on this head? And does it not deprive him of even more time to get down from the sixth floor?

Not so fast. I agree that Baker's little slip is very telling indeed, devastating even, but what it is telling is not what people have generally suspected.

To understand the significance of "drinking a coke" we need to note two other little slips in its immediate vicinity. Though they have achieved far less attention, they are in my view of no less importance.

**

The first relates to the floor on which the lunchroom was located:

Second or third floor: this uncertain either-or formula echoes in an uncanny way Baker's original 11/22/63 affidavit, where he talks of having seen a man walking away from the rear stairway on "the third or fourth floor".

At least on 11/22 Baker might be said to have some excuse in that he was unfamiliar with the building.

But this is different. Here we have Baker, on the far side of having taken part in multiple WC reconstructions of his movements inside the building, and on the far side of having testified in excruciating detail on the lunchroom incident to the WC, still showing uncertainty as to which bloody floor the incident happened on.

**

The second interesting item is Baker's description of the circumstances of his first sighting of Oswald:

I saw a man standing in the lunch room: even if we factor out the fact that this phrase originally closes with the words drinking a coke, it is still very troubling.

It need hardly be pointed out that it does not chime with Baker's 11/22 affidavit words (which again use the very same phrase construction): I saw a man walking away from the stairway.

That's just the half of it however. This phrase doesn't even chime with the story that Baker had told to the WC, the story of a man spotted while walking towards and then into the lunchroom.

**

What, we must yet again ask ourselves, is going on here?

To get a handle on Baker's very weird Sep 64 statement, we need to bear in mind an important point made by Paul Rigby yesterday:

"The cover-up is, after all, a process, not an event, with many errors, early inadequacies, and/or improvisation, many of them subsequently abandoned."

I submit that the second-floor lunchroom incident is not just a fiction, it is a fiction contrived in haste and panic on the evening of the assassination. The authorities knew that Oswald had an alibi and they knew that something, anything, had to be done fast to liquidate it. It didn't much matter what that something was, as long as it got Oswald away from the damned front entrance at the time of the President's passing (no pun intended). The details could be worried about later

**

So what did they do?

In order to maintain maximum consonance between the true story already circulating and already being told by Oswald in custody, and in order to make things as easy as possible on Baker and Truly, they chose the simplest operation possible:

The Wholesale Switcheroo.

Fact: Oswald was standing drinking a coca-cola when the armed officer burst into the front entrance

became...

Fiction: Oswald was standing drinking a coca-cola when the armed officer burst into the second-floor lunchroom.

The details could be refined later.

**

Marrion Baker's fellow motorcycle officer Stavis Ellis told Larry Sneed that Baker was known to be not "real bright". In fact, he was thought to be "slow" and was nicknamed "Momma Son". Harold Weisberg, years earlier, remarked that Baker was thought by his colleagues to be a "dope".

Put the case that this verdict, however unkind, had at least a grain of truth in it.

And put the case that Baker, at some point after the assassination, was fed the first draft of the lunchroom story as follows:

You saw a man standing in the second-floor lunchroom drinking a coke. Got that? A man. Standing in the lunchroom. Second floor. Drinking a coke.

Going in to give his Sep 64 statement, Baker has not been heavily prepped in the way that he most assuredly was going into his WC session. The 'finished' script is no longer fresh in his memory.

What happens? He gets successive drafts of the Oswald Encounter Story almost comically confused with one another. He talks like a man who is not drawing on primary memory to describe an actually experienced incident. That's because he is describing an event that never happened.

• When he writes (and crosses out) "drinking a coke", he is not betraying a real, empirical memory of having seen Oswald drinking a coke in the lunchroom, he is betraying a real memory of having at some point been told to say that he had seen Oswald drinking a coke in the lunchroom.
• When he writes of having seen the man "standing in the lunch room", he is not betraying a real, empirical memory of having seen Oswald standing in the lunchroom, he is betraying a real memory of having at some point been told to say that he had seen Oswald standing in the lunchroom.
• And when he writes (and crosses out part of) "second or third floor", he is not betraying uncertainty as to where the incident had really. empirically taken place, he is...

Well, we must hold that thought because it brings us to Baker's all-important 11/22/63 affidavit story.

"The cover-up is, after all, a process, not an event, with many errors, early inadequacies, and/or improvisation, many of them subsequently abandoned." Thanks for that one, Paul Rigby.

And a very thought provoking post by Sean.

It might be beneficial at this point to repost Marion Baker's original affidavit from 11/22/63: (I have bold faced certain portions)

"Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket. "

Fritz's notes say that Lee said he was

"out with Bill Shelley in front,"

As Richard Hocking points out, the only time he could have been out front with Shelley

was prior to and during the actual shooting, because Shelley left the front steps immediately after

and went to explore the grassy knoll.

It is a long time since I seriously studied the interrogation reports, but I propose a theory and invite pot-shots from members:

This answer by Oz does not appear in Hosty or Bookhout, correct?

If not, why not?

I suggest it happened BEFORE Hosty and Bookhout arrived,

and so the FBI reports are foggy because Hosty and Bookhout are relying on what Fritz told them.

I thought I'd run that up the flagpole

and see if anyone salutes!

"out with Bill Shelley in front," when taken in context

What context are you referring to Pat?

, suggests Oswald told Fritz he saw Bill Shelley when leaving the building. Some have tried to twist it into being a claim by Oswald he was out front at the time of the shooting.

Nearly everyone agrees that Fritz's notes are vague. The placement, however, of Oswald being near Shelley is not. And there is a very limited window when Oswald could have been in the company of Shelley. The possibility does exist that Prayer Man is Oswald.

But we've been over this and that doesn't make a lot of sense, seeing as none of those present recalled such a thing.

This issue was discussed earlier in this very thread by Sean, myself and others. We decided there were visible suggestions in the film and photo record that Prayer Man could have made a late entry to the back of the stairs while the attention of the other TSBD employees on the stairs were focused on the Motorcade approaching, passing them, and then the subsequent chaos when the shots were fired.

Of course, one could say they all lied.

We can not rule out the possibility that some individuals may have lied. But another alternative is that many in the group never turned around to see who was behind them during those moments after the Presidential Limo turned onto Elm.

Fritz's notes say that Lee said he was

"out with Bill Shelley in front,"

As Richard Hocking points out, the only time he could have been out front with Shelley

was prior to and during the actual shooting, because Shelley left the front steps immediately after

and went to explore the grassy knoll.

It is a long time since I seriously studied the interrogation reports, but I propose a theory and invite pot-shots from members:

This answer by Oz does not appear in Hosty or Bookhout, correct?

If not, why not?

I suggest it happened BEFORE Hosty and Bookhout arrived,

and so the FBI reports are foggy because Hosty and Bookhout are relying on what Fritz told them.

I thought I'd run that up the flagpole

and see if anyone salutes!

It's one possibility, Ray.

One item that leaps out of Fritz's WC testimony is the commotion of various DPD personnel, SS Agents, and FBI agents coming and leaving the room during the Oswald interviews. There were times when Bookhout was there; other times when Hosty was there; and at least one occasion when Hosty and Bookhout were there together.

We are also stuck with Fritz being unable to remember on what day Oswald gave some of the relevant answers to some of the questions.

I am not aware of an Interrogation Timeline showing who was present at which interviews, but it might be handy to put one together as a reference.

Dave, Tommy, Bill, and all:

Here is the updated TSBD timeline, with some additions and corrections, and references provided. I am still hoping to get more feedback and info.

I have included questions and observations at the bottom of this post.

Timeline:

12:00: Eddie Piper sees Oswald on the 1^st floor of the TSBD. ¹

12:00 – 12:10: (estimated time) Bonnie Ray Williams goes to 6^th floor to eat lunch (sees and hears no one) (?) ²

12:12: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in hallway between front door and double doors a few minutes before 12:15 ³

12:15– 12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in the1st floor Lunch Room ⁴

12:15: Arnold Rowland sees man with Rifle on 6^th floor West Window (slender, dark hair, light shirt open at neck; other man was "colored" hanging out of East corner window) ⁵

12:15– 12:20: BRW takes elevator from 6^th to 5th floor leaving partially eaten chicken behind (?) (sees and hears no one) ⁶

12:18: Howard Brennan sees man on 6^th floor (no rifle visible at this time). (w/m, early30's, slender, 165-75, light clothing) ⁷

12:20- 12:25: Carolyn Arnold looks through glass door and sees Oswald inside on 1^st floor near front of TSBD ⁸

12:26- 12:30: Ruby Henderson sees two men on 6^th/ or Top floor. One dark (Mexican or Negro), and was wearing a white shirt. The other man was the taller and lighter of the two ⁹

12:28: Richard Carr sees heavy set man, what, glasses, tan sport coat in 2^nd window from East corner, 6^th floor. ¹⁰

12:29: Carolyn Walther sees two men w/ Rifle in 5^th floor SE corner Window. (one man wearing brown suit coat) ¹¹

12:29 Robert Edwards see w/m in 6^th floor SE corner window, light colored shirt, short sleeve, open neck, possibly thin ¹²

12:29 Ronald Fischer sees Man in 5^th floor "right corner" window, man was laying down,could only see head, light headed and open neck shirt, man was in his twenties (Fischer will later change floor to 6^th and shots from 4 to 3.) ¹³

12:29 – 12:30: Geneva Hine notes the lights are out on her phone system as motorcade approaches TSBD. ¹⁴

12:30: Shots fired at JFK Limo.

12:30: Amos Euins sees Blackman with rifle in 6^th floor SE corner window (later changed to white man) ¹⁵

12:30: Howard Brennan sees white man w Rifle in 6^th floor SE corner window ¹⁶

12:30: Jack Dougherty is 10 feet west of West Elevator on 5^th floor (within sight and sound of NW stairs); hears one shot. ¹⁷

12:30: Dillard Photo taken 3-15 seconds after shots shows Norman and Williams in SE 5^th floor corner windows (and possibly Jarman inthe 4^th window from the SE corner). They say they run to West Window after shots. ¹⁸

12:31: Vicky Adams and Sandra Styles descend the NW Rear stairs from the 4^th floor to the 1^st floor (see & hear no one). ¹⁹

12:31: Otis Williams runs up NW stairway to 4^th floor (sees no one) goes back to his 2^nd floor office (?) ²⁰

12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (probably Shelley & Lovelady according to Adams) ²¹

12:31: Officer Barnett runs to guard back of TSBD (and Fire Escape on East Side). ²²

12:31:30: Officer Baker and Roy Truly on 2^nd floor by NW stairway; claim to see Oswald in Lunch room. ²¹

12:32: HSCA analysis show boxes in 6^th floor window rearranged within 2 minutes of shooting. ²²

12:32 – 12:33 Mrs. Reid returns to her 2nd floor office. Oswald calmly walks by her with coke in hand. ²³

12:32 – 12:33 Deputy Roger Craig arrests a woman in her early thirties attempting to drive out of a private railyard parking lot. She was in a brown 1962 or 1963 Chevrolet . Craig turns her over to Deputy Sheriff Lummy Lewis. ²⁴

12:32– 12:36: Carr sees the same man he previously saw in the window, walk away fromthe TSBD and get into a Rambler Station Wagon ¹⁰

12:32– 12:33: Officer Baker sees man on 3^rd or 4^th floor, w/m, 30 yrs old, 5'9, 165 lb, dark hair, light brown jacket. Manager vouches for this man and Baker lets him go. (Baker 11/22/63 affidavit) ²⁵

12:33– 12:34: Officer Barnett moves from Back of TSBD to guard the Front entrance . ²²

12:33 James Worrell see a man in a dark sportcoat and light colored pants dash out of the back of the TSBD about 3 minutes after shots fired at motorcade. Man was late 20's /early 30's, 5'8", dark brown hair. Ran South on Houston. ²⁶

12:33– 12:34: Dougherty takes West Elevator down to 1^st floor. (?) Talks to Givens. ²⁷

12:33– 12:34: Baker and Truly on 4^th or 5^th floor, spot East Elevator, but West elevator is missing ²⁸

12:33– 12:36: Officers Mooney, Vickery and Webster arrive at 1^st floor rear elevator. Vickery & Webster take stairs up. Mooney takes elevator up to 2^nd floor, where power goes off, he switches to the stairs and encounters " some men he believes to be officers" in plain clothes coming down the stairs. He passes these men and continues up. ²⁹

12:33– 12:36: In his report of 11/23/63, Det. Harry Weatherford claims that he, Mooney, Boone, Walters, and Webster all went into the rear of the TSBD together and ascend the stairs. Weatherford goes out the window to search the roof of the loading dock, then comes back in and searches the first floor [sic] with an"unknown DPD Detective" (?) Then he goes to the top floor and eventually joins Mooney & Co. on the 6^th floor ³⁰

12:34– 12:35: Lillian Mooneyham sees man standing behind boxes on 6^th floor of TSBD. ³¹

12:34– 12:36: Officer Mooney arrives for first quick survey (does not go to "sniper lair") of 6^th flloor, sees no one, then goes up to 7^th floor. ²⁹

12:34: Inspector Sawyer enters Front of TSBD, enters Passenger elevator; runs into "this Man"; goes up to 4^th floor ³²

12:35: Baker and Truly are on roof of TSBD ³³

12:36: Euins tells Officer Harkness shots came from 5^th floor TSBD ³⁴

12:36– 12:37: Harkness arrives at rear (North Loading dock) door of TSBD. Sees "some Secret Service Agents".³⁵

12:37: Sawyer retrurns to 1^st floor, goes out in front to set up Command Post. ³²

12:40 – 12:45: Dep. Craig hears whistle. Sees light green Nash Rambler Station Wagon stop; sees w/m, 140-150, brown hair, in his 20's, white T shirt, runs down slope and gets inside. The Driver of the vehicle was husky latin, dark wavy hair, tan windbreaker jacket. Craig runs over to report this to the Command Post in front of the TSBD entrance and encounters a SS Agent ("40 years old, sandy-haired with a distinct cleft in his chin. He was well-dressed in a gray business suit") ²⁴

12:45: Description of suspect broadcast by DPD: w/m, 30, 5'10, 165, 30-30 (Winchester Rifle on Channel 2) ³⁶

12:50 – 12:55: SSAForest Sorrels returns from Parkland Hospital to the rear entrance of the TSBD and enters the building with no one checking his ID, the first genuine SS Agent to arrive on the scene. ³⁷

12:58: Captain Fritz arrives at front entrance of TSBD ³⁸

12:58: Mooney Leans out window and Signals Fritz, who is standing in front of TSBD (After leaving the 7^th floor,Mooney, Vickery, and Webster went down to 6^th floor, where Mooney discovered SE corner window "sniper lair", empty shells, chicken remnants and soda.. ³⁹

1:22: Boone and Weitzman discover Rifle they idenitfy as a 7.65 Mauser, concealed between boxes on the 6^th floor ⁴⁰

^References:

1. Eddie Piper Dallas Sheriff Affidavit of 11/23/63; also WC Testimony

2. Bonnie Ray Williams WC testimony , Vol. III, pp 169-173 (left 6^th floor at 12:20; was up there for 15 minutes)

3. CD5:41 Archives from Mary Ferrell Timeline

4. Anthony Summers 1978 interview with Carolyn Arnold/ Jim Marrs, Crossfire p. 49

5. Arnold Rowland, interviewed by Arlen Specter and Gerald Ford before the Warren Commission (10th March, 1964)

6. Bonnie Ray Williams WC testimony , Vol.III – Page 173, March 24, 1964; http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page173.php

7. Howard Brennan Dallas Sheriff statement: November 22, 1963. (Description). Howard Brennan FBI Report: January 7,1964. (Gave 12:18 as time of sighting)

8. Arnold's 26 Nov 1963 statement is published by Weisberg (1967) p. 210, with discussion on pp. 74-75.The original handwritten statement says 12:25. When retyped by the FBI the time was changed to 12:15 (Guth & Wrone 1980, p. xxxii).
 This is cited by Don Thomas in Rewriting History:Bugliosi Parses the Testimony, http://www.maryferre...s_the_Testimony

9. Ruby Henderson FBI statement of 12/6/63. Saw men on 6^th floor after ambulance had departed.

10. Richard Randolph Carr: http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf, p. 8

11. http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf

12. Robert Edwards WC Testimony on April 9. 1964, Vol VI, pp. 203- http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page203.php

13. Ronald Fischer Dallas Sheriff's Statement: November 22, 1963. 19H475; FBI Report: December 2,1963. CD205

14. Geneva Hines WC Testimony, 4/7/64 http://www.aarclibra...df/WH6_Hine.pdf

15. James Underwood WC Deposition,4/1/64, Vol. VI, p. 170, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page168.php

16. Howard Brennan Sheriff Statement: http://jfk.ci.dallas...28/2823-001.gif

17. Jack Daugherty WC testimony: http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page380.php

18. Dillard photo. Regarding Jarman: Mike Regan says Gary Mack told him he examined the negatives which confirmed Jarman in the 4^th window from the SE Corner. http://educationforu...opic=4624&st=45 post #50.

19. Vicky Adams Warren Commission Testimony, 4/7/64

20. The Elevator Escape Theory by Richard Gilbride, http://www.reopenken...t/gilbride.html,pp 21-22

21. Officer Baker WC Testimony, Vol. III pp.247-263

22. from Comparison of Dillard and Powell photos, 6HSCA 110-115

23. Mrs. Robert Reid WC Testimony, http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page274.php

24. Roger Craig, When They Kill A President, 1, http://www.ratical.o.../JFK/WTKaP.html

25. (Officer Baker Affidavit), http://jfk.ci.dallas...04/0426-001.gif

26. James Worrell WC Testimony, Vol. II, p. 196, http://www.jfk-assas...ol2/page196.php

27. Jack Dougherty WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p 380, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page380.php

28. Baker WC Testimony, Vol. III, pp. 258-259 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page258.php

29. Luke Mooney WC Testimony, Vol. III, pp. 283-284 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page283.php

30. Harry Weatherford, Dallas Sheriff Supplementary Investigation Report, http://mcadams.posc....ny/weatherf.htm

31. Lillian Mooneyham, FBI Report: January 10, 1964, 24H531

32. Ins. Sawyer WC Testimony, Vol VI, pp 318-320, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page319.php

33. Baker WC Testimony Vol. III, p 262 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page262.php (Baker took total of 15 minutes, spent about 10 minutes on roof)

34. Harkness WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p. 310 http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page310.php

35. Harkness WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p. 312, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page312.php

36. DPD Description of Suspect broadcast; Mary Ferrell Chronologies Vol 4 Nov 22 1963 pg 172, Tape #1 gives 12:37-12:45; JFK Assassination Chronology 22 Nov 1963 pg 49 gives 12:45 as time; http://www.terra.es/...rios/cintas.htmgives 12:45

37. SSA Forest Sorrels, Vol VII, p. 347-348,WC testimony, http://www.jfk-assas...ol7/page347.php

38. Captain Fritz, WC Testimony, Vol IV, p.204 http://www.jfk-assas...ol4/page204.php

39. Mooney signals Fritz, http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page284.php, Fritz arrived and was in frontof TSBD at 12:58, then went inside according to his WC testimony, ³⁷

40. Dep. Eugene Boone, WC testimony, Vol 6, pp 204-205. http://www.jfk-assas...ol4/page205.php

Other Related Reading:

"The Elevator Escape Theory" by Richard Gilbride, http://www.reopenken...t/gilbride.html

Greg Parker Website; http://reopenkennedy...-cop-encounters

"The Man in the Dark Sports Coat" by William Weston http://www.manuscrip...PQ/sports~1.htm

Duke Lane thread on Lancer forum : http://www.jfklancer...g_id=82512

Don Thomas , "Rewriting History: Bugliosi Parses the Testimony" http://www.maryferre...s_the_Testimony

"Dealey Plaza Conspiracy Witnesses, HSCA Staff Report", http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf

"A Comprehensive Review of Reclaiming History", by James DiEugenio

Questions and observations:

1. Electrical Power Events: Geneva Hine's phone system lights go off, just before12:30. Was this a power outage or just no calls at that time?; Truly and Baker are unable to get an elevator down from the 5^th floor less than a minute after the shots. Sandra Styles said she and Vicky Adams tried thepassenger elevator in front, but when it did not work, they went to the backstairs. The West elevator has power when Mooney gets on the 1^st floor,then loses power on the 2^nd floor, 12:33-12:36. Who cut power to elevator at that precise moment? Select Elevator circuits and possiblyt he phone system circuit were reported off, but I have seen no report of all power to the TSBD being off, which would have happened if the Main Circuit breaker was thrown. The 3 elevators would have been on their own dedicated circuits, as would the phone system. The evidence supports the possibility that selected circuits may have been turned on/off at various times just before and after 12:30. This rules out random fuse failure (or circuit breakers being tripped) and supports the notion of manipulation of the power circuits. Was the Fuse/Breaker box located in the basement of the TSBD?

2. Why is there no exchange of information with Mooney when he is passing the men he believes might be DPD officers on the stairs? They would have been the very first respondents on the scene. If you were Mooney, wouldn't you at least ask them a few questions … like Had they seen a man with a rifle roaming around on an upper floor? And why were they were leaving the scene so soon?

3. There are three general descriptions of unknown men seen on the upper floors, in some cases with rifles, just before and at the time of the shooting:

First man: a younger white man who was slender.

Second man: another white man who may have been older, heavier, and wearing a tan jacket or coat and possibly glasses.

Third man: a dark complected man who may have been Latin/Mexican/Negro.

4. Secret Service men were reported on the back entrance dock and at the front entrance within minutes of the shots, and well before Forrest Sorrels was the first actual SS agent to return to Dealey Plaza/ TSBD.

5. Unidentified men who were thought to be police officers:

A. "Some" plain clothes officers seen by Officer Mooney as he ascends the NW stairs from the 2^nd floor

B. Weatherford searches the 1^st floor with an unknown DPD detective

6. Unidentified Civilians:

A. Man seen in front elevator by Sawyer

B. Two men seen by rear elevator seen by Baker (may be Lovelady and Shelley)

7. Individuals seen leaving the scene:

A. Man seen by Worrel

B. Man seen by Carr

C. Man seen by Craig

D. Woman in car arrested by Craig.

(edited for spacing and syntax)

BUMP - Thanks for that TimeLine Richard

For sure Bill.

It is still a work in progress.

I should also note that the many of the events in the Timeline are based on shots being fired at 12:30.

A few observations:

Mrs. Reid, Roy Truly, Campbell, Officer Marion Baker, and Possibly Prayer Man/Oswald all are in close proximity within seconds of each other at the front entrance area. Approximately 1 minute later (give or take a few seconds) they are all once again in close proximity to each other in the immediate vicinity of the 2nd floor lunch room, although they took different routes to reach that destination. You could also add Otis Williams to that group since he was on the steps near Prayer Man, and also turns up in the group Geneva Hines describes. A large group apparently in a hurry to get to the same destination.

As Ray pointed out, early researchers Leo Sauvage, Weisberg, and Sylvia Meagher used the 2nd floor lunch room encounter to vindicate LHO from being the 6th floor shooter. One wonders how these researchers would have reacted to the physical evidence of Prayer Man if it had been available to them.