Richard Hocking

Since this is a thread dedicated to Oswald's coke (long overdue imo), I would like to chip in with a bit of trivia that may or may not add any value to the discussion.

During the 1950's, most Coke Vending Machines dispensed 6 1/2 ounce bottles of coke. In 1963, Some of these older Vending machines were still in operation, but newer machines had been introduced that offered the 10 ounce size. And I believe the "Giant" 12 ounce coke bottles were also just coming out around that time.

If you look at some of the Lunch room photos, there are empty bottles and crates. It might be interesting to see what size cokes were being sold in the Coke Machine.

I can tell you from experience that 6 1/2 ounce cokes went down fast.

If you go through the whole timeline, you will see there are various contradictions, along with bits of testimony that are suspicious.

This all goes back to the original intent of this timeline. From the inception, it was never intended to be a theory or a comprehensive explanation on my part. I did not exclude certain witness testimony just because I myself did not believe it.

The intent was to organize witness testimony (including testimony that I do not believe) around certain events that I considered to be significant regarding the events that unfolded in the TSBD just before and just after the assassination. There was some interpretation on my part, especially in assigning times or time ranges to events, but I do have a reasonable argument for assigning every one of those time ranges. I remain open to new information and suggestions.

I have gathered new information since this timeline was first presented. Prayer man is a perfect example, but there are other events and testimony that need to be added.

And I am in the process of updating.

It is important to remember when looking at this timeline that its value lies in being a guide or a frame of reference. So when I do finish the update, it is still going to contain contradictions and some testimony I consider to be suspect.

It is up to the user put the pieces together when trying to interpret what actually happened.

A brief note of appreciation, Richard, for all your work in this thread. It's been exemplary. Thanks for it, and keep it coming.

Paul

Many thanks, Paul.

"12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, runs past "Prayer Man" and goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (probably Shelley and Lovelady according to Adams) 21"

I am still trying to understand how Lovelady and Shelley were able to proceed West on Elm St. to the concrete island, plus able to look back and see Truly/Baker entering the TSBD, yet be waiting in the vicinity of the elevators to be spotted first by Vicki Adams and then by Marrion Baker; especially if we read Shelley's testimony, in which he describes himself and Lovelady then going to the railroad yards before returning to the TSBD by the rear door. By her testimony, I think Miss Adams was on her way out of the building through the back door before Truly/Baker arrived at the elevators. If not, there is no way they could have not run into each other on the stairs.

Also, according to Miss Adams' testimony, she had returned from the railroad yard to the TSBD and stopped to listen to the two way radio on a police motorcycle parked in front of the TSBD. Presumably, this was Baker's motorcycle, further proving she had managed to get out of the TSBD before Truly and Baker had entered.

Robert,

If you go through the whole timeline, you will see there are various contradictions, along with bits of testimony that are suspicious.

This all goes back to the original intent of this timeline. From the inception, it was never intended to be a theory or a comprehensive explanation on my part. I did not exclude certain witness testimony just because I myself did not believe it.

The intent was to organize witness testimony (including testimony that I do not believe) around certain events that I considered to be significant regarding the events that unfolded in the TSBD just before and just after the assassination. There was some interpretation on my part, especially in assigning times or time ranges to events, but I do have a reasonable argument for assigning every one of those time ranges. I remain open to new information and suggestions.

I have gathered new information since this timeline was first presented. Prayer man is a perfect example, but there are other events and testimony that need to be added.

And I am in the process of updating.

It is important to remember when looking at this timeline that its value lies in being a guide or a frame of reference. So when I do finish the update, it is still going to contain contradictions and some testimony I consider to be suspect.

It is up to the user put the pieces together when trying to interpret what actually happened.

Add Edit: I should include a thank you to Robert for making his point, prompting me to do some necessary clarification.

I think Richard's Timeline helps a lot, and it should be expanded to include Shelley and Lovelady and Frazer movements after the last shot and other items that are appropriate.

Timeline of Certain Pertinent Events at the TSBD

[Thank to Richard Hocking for putting this together]

http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2013/08/timeline-of-certain-pertinent-events.html

Timeline:

12:00: Eddie Piper sees Oswald on the 1^st floor of the TSBD. ¹

12:00 – 12:10: (estimated time) Bonnie Ray Williams goes to 6^th floor to eat lunch (sees and hears no one) (?) ²

12:12: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in hallway between front door and double doors a few minutes before 12:15 ³

12:15– 12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in the1st floor Lunch Room ⁴

12:15: Arnold Rowland sees man with Rifle on 6^th floor West Window (slender, dark hair, light shirt open at neck; other man was "colored" hanging out of East corner window) ⁵

12:15– 12:20: BRW takes elevator from 6^th to 5th floor leaving Dr.Pepper bottle and partially eaten chicken behind (?) (sees and hears no one) ⁶

12:18: Howard Brennan sees man on 6^th floor (no rifle visible at this time). (w/m, early30's, slender, 165-75, light clothing) ⁷

12:20- 12:25: Carolyn Arnold looks through glass door and sees Oswald inside on 1^st floor near front of TSBD ⁸

12:26- 12:30: Ruby Henderson sees two men on 6^th/ or Top floor. One dark (Mexican or Negro), and was wearing a white shirt. The other man was the taller and lighter of the two ⁹

12:28: Richard Carr sees heavy set man, what, glasses, tan sport coat in 2^nd window from East corner, 6^th floor. ¹⁰

12:29: Carolyn Walther sees two men w/ Rifle in 5^th floor SE corner Window. (one man wearing brown suit coat) ¹¹

12:29 Robert Edwards see w/m in 6^th floor SE corner window, light colored shirt, short sleeve, open neck, possibly thin ¹²

12:29 Ronald Fischer sees Man in 5^th floor "right corner" window, man was laying down,could only see head, light headed and open neck shirt, man was in his twenties (Fischer will later change floor to 6^th and shots from 4 to 3.) ¹³

12:29 – 12:30: Geneva Hine notes the lights are out on her phone system as motorcade approaches TSBD. 12:30 Oswald said he was on the first floor at the time of the shooting, then went up to the second floor lunchroom to get a coke. 14.

12:30 “Prayer Man” is standing at the top of the front steps of the TSBD where Buell Wesley Frazer is also standing, just above William Shelley and Lovelady, who are on lower steps.

12:30: Shots fired at JFK Limo.

12:30: Amos Euins sees Blackman with rifle in 6^th floor SE corner window (later changed to white man) ¹⁵ This man firing the rifle also has white shirt and bald spot on top of head.

12:30: Howard Brennan sees white man w white shirt and Rifle in 6^th floor SE corner window ¹⁶

12:30: Jack Dougherty is 10 feet west of West Elevator on 5^th floor (within sight and sound of NW stairs); hears one shot. ¹⁷

12:30: Dillard Photo taken 3-15 seconds after shots shows Norman and Williams in SE 5^th floor corner windows (and possibly Jarman inthe 4^th window from the SE corner). They say they run to West Window after shots. ¹⁸

12:31: Vicky Adams and Sandra Styles descend the NW Rear stairs from the 4^th floor to the 1^st floor (see & hear no one). ¹⁹

12:31: Otis Williams runs up NW stairway to 4^th floor (sees no one) goes back to his 2^nd floor office (?) ²⁰

12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, runs past "Prayer Man" and goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (probably Shelley and Lovelady according to Adams) ²¹

12:31: Officer Barnett runs to guard back of TSBD (and Fire Escape on East Side). ²²

12:31:30: Officer Baker and Roy Truly on 2^nd floor by NW stairway; claim to see Oswald in Lunch room. ²¹

12:32: HSCA analysis show boxes in 6^th floor window rearranged within 2 minutes of shooting. ²²

12:32 – 12:33 Mrs. Reid returns to her 2nd floor office. Oswald calmly walks by her with coke in hand. ²³

12:32 – 12:33 Deputy Roger Craig arrests a woman in her early thirties attempting to drive out of a private railyard parking lot. She was in a brown 1962 or 1963 Chevrolet . Craig turns her over to Deputy Sheriff Lummy Lewis. ²⁴

12:32– 12:36: Carr sees the same man he previously saw in the window, walk away from the TSBD and get into a Rambler Station Wagon ¹⁰

12:32– 12:33: Officer Baker sees man on 3^rd or 4^th floor, w/m, 30 yrs old, 5'9, 165 lb, dark hair, light brown jacket. Manager vouches for this man and Baker lets him go. (Baker 11/22/63 affidavit) ²⁵

12:33– 12:34: Officer Barnett moves from Back of TSBD to guard the Front entrance . ²²

12:33 James Worrell see a man in a dark sportcoat and light colored pants dash out of the back of the TSBD about 3 minutes after shots fired at motorcade. Man was late 20's /early 30's, 5'8", dark brown hair. Ran South on Houston. ²⁶

12:33– 12:34: Dougherty takes West Elevator down to 1^st floor. (?) Talks to Givens. ²⁷

12:33– 12:34: Baker and Truly on 4^th or 5^th floor, spot East Elevator, but West elevator is missing ^{28 They take the East Elevator to the seventh floor and find nothing, return to fourth floor where Baker reports to Inspector Sawyer, the senior Dallas Police Department officer in the building.}

12:33– 12:36: Officers Mooney, Vickery and Webster arrive at 1^st floor rear elevator. Vickery and Webster take stairs up. Mooney takes elevator up to 2^nd floor, where power goes off, he switches to the stairs and encounters " some men he believes to be officers" in plain clothes coming down the stairs. He passes these men and continues up. ²⁹

12:33– 12:36: In his report of 11/23/63, Det. Harry Weatherford claims that he, Mooney, Boone, Walters, and Webster all went into the rear of the TSBD together and ascend the stairs. Weatherford goes out the window to search the roof of the loading dock, then comes back in and searches the first floor [sic] with an "unknown DPD Detective" (?) Then he goes to the top floor and eventually joins Mooney and Co. on the 6^th floor ³⁰

12:34– 12:35:From across the street court clerk Lillian Mooneyham sees man standing by boxes on 6^th floor of TSBD. ³¹

12:34– 12:36: Officer Mooney arrives for first quick survey (does not go to "sniper lair") of 6^th flloor, sees no one, then goes up to 7^th floor. ²⁹

12:34: Inspector Sawyer enters Front of TSBD, enters Passenger elevator; runs into "this Man"; goes up to 4^th floor³²

12:35: Baker and Truly are on roof of TSBD ³³

12:36: Euins tells Officer Harkness shots came from 5^th floor TSBD ³⁴

12:36– 12:37: Harkness arrives at rear (North Loading dock) door of TSBD. Sees "some Secret Service Agents".³⁵

12:37: Sawyer retrurns to 1^st floor, goes out in front to set up Command Post. ³²

12:40 – 12:45: Dep. Craig hears whistle. Sees light green Nash Rambler Station Wagon stop; sees w/m, 140-150, brown hair, in his 20's, white T shirt, runs down slope and gets inside. The Driver of the vehicle was husky latin, dark wavy hair, tan windbreaker jacket. Craig runs over to report this to the Command Post in front of the TSBD entrance and encounters a SS Agent ("40 years old, sandy-haired with a distinct cleft in his chin. He was well-dressed in a gray business suit") ²⁴

12:45: Description of suspect broadcast by DPD: w/m, 30, 5'10, 165, 30-30 (Winchester Rifle on Channel 2) ³⁶

12:50 – 12:55: SSA Forest Sorrels returns from Parkland Hospital to the rear entrance of the TSBD and enters the building with no one checking his ID, the first genuine SS Agent to arrive on the scene. ³⁷

12:58: Captain Fritz arrives at front entrance of TSBD ³⁸

12:58: Mooney Leans out window and Signals Fritz, who is standing in front of TSBD (After leaving the 7^thfloor,Mooney, Vickery, and Webster went down to 6^th floor, where Mooney discovered SE corner window "sniper lair", empty shells, chicken remnants and soda.. ³⁹

1:22: Boone and Weitzman discover Rifle they idenitfy as a 7.65 Mauser, concealed between boxes on the 6^th floor⁴⁰

1:22 Truly tells DPD Capt. Lumpkin that one of his men - Oswald is missing. Lumplin confers privately with two or three other senior DPD officers and then escorts Truly up to the Sixth Floor where they interupt Capt. Fritz examining the rifle and Lumpkin tells Fritz that Truly has something important to tell Fritz, and Truly tells Frtiz about the missing employee - Oswald, and give Fritz Oswald's address at Mrs. Paine's home in Irving. Fritz then walks across the street to Sheriff Decker's office where they confer privately before Fritz returns to his DPD office, where Oswald, under arrest, is waiting for him, having been arrested in the Tippit shooting.

[bK Notes, my additions to this chronology are not footnoted as to their source.]

^References:

1. Eddie Piper Dallas Sheriff Affidavit of 11/23/63; also WC Testimony

2. ^{Bonnie Ray Williams WC testimony , Vol. III, pp 169-173 (left 6th floor at 12:20; was up there for 15 minutes)}

^{3. CD5:41 Archives from Mary Ferrell Timeline}

^{4. Anthony Summers 1978 interview with Carolyn Arnold/ Jim Marrs, Crossfire p. 49}

5. ^{Arnold Rowland, interviewed by Arlen Specter and Gerald Ford before the Warren Commission (10th March, 1964)}

^{6. Bonnie Ray Williams WC testimony , Vol.III – Page 173, March 24, 1964; http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page173.php}

^{7. Howard Brennan Dallas Sheriff statement: November 22, 1963. (Description). Howard Brennan FBI Report: January 7,1964. (Gave 12:18 as time of sighting)}

8. ^{Arnold's 26 Nov 1963 statement is published by Weisberg (1967) p. 210, with discussion on pp. 74-75.The original handwritten statement says 12:25. When retyped by the FBI the time was changed to 12:15 (Guth & Wrone 1980, p. xxxii).
 This is cited by Don Thomas in Rewriting History:Bugliosi Parses the Testimony, http://www.maryferre...s_the_Testimony}

^{9. Ruby Henderson FBI statement of 12/6/63. Saw men on 6th floor after ambulance had departed.}

10. Richard Randolph Carr: ^{http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf, p. 8}

11. ^{http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf}

^{12. Robert Edwards WC Testimony on April 9. 1964, Vol VI, pp. 203- http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page203.php}

^{13. Ronald Fischer Dallas Sheriff's Statement: November 22, 1963. 19H475; FBI Report: December 2,1963. CD205}

^{14. Geneva Hines WC Testimony, 4/7/64 http://www.aarclibra...df/WH6_Hine.pdf}

^{15. James Underwood WC Deposition,4/1/64, Vol. VI, p. 170, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page168.php}

^{16. Howard Brennan Sheriff Statement: http://jfk.ci.dallas...28/2823-001.gif}

^{17. Jack Daugherty WC testimony: http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page380.php}

^{18. Dillard photo. Regarding Jarman: Mike Regan says Gary Mack told him he examined the negatives which confirmed Jarman in the 4thwindow from the SE Corner. http://educationforu...opic=4624&st=45 post #50.}

^{19. Vicky Adams Warren Commission Testimony, 4/7/64}

20. The Elevator Escape Theory by Richard Gilbride, ^{http://www.reopenken...t/gilbride.html,pp 21-22}

21. Officer Baker WC Testimony, Vol. III pp.247-263

22. from Comparison of Dillard and Powell photos, 6HSCA 110-115

23. Mrs. Robert Reid WC Testimony, ^{http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page274.php}

^{24. Roger Craig, When They Kill A President, 1, http://www.ratical.o.../JFK/WTKaP.html}

^{25. (Officer Baker Affidavit), http://jfk.ci.dallas...04/0426-001.gif}

^{26. James Worrell WC Testimony, Vol. II, p. 196, http://www.jfk-assas...ol2/page196.php}

^{27. Jack Dougherty WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p 380, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page380.php}

^{28. Baker WC Testimony, Vol. III, pp. 258-259 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page258.php}

^{29. Luke Mooney WC Testimony, Vol. III, pp. 283-284 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page283.php}

^{30. Harry Weatherford, Dallas Sheriff Supplementary Investigation Report, http://mcadams.posc....ny/weatherf.htm}

^{31. Lillian Mooneyham, FBI Report: January 10, 1964, 24H531}

^{32. Ins. Sawyer WC Testimony, Vol VI, pp 318-320, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page319.php}

^{33. Baker WC Testimony Vol. III, p 262 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page262.php (Baker took total of 15 minutes, spent about 10 minutes on roof)}

34. Harkness WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p. 310 ^{http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page310.php}

^{35. Harkness WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p. 312, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page312.php}

^{36. DPD Description of Suspect broadcast; Mary Ferrell Chronologies Vol 4 Nov 22 1963 pg 172, Tape #1 gives 12:37-12:45; JFK Assassination Chronology 22 Nov 1963 pg 49 gives 12:45 as time; http://www.terra.es/...rios/cintas.htm gives 12:45}

37. SSA Forest Sorrels, Vol VII, p. 347-348,WC testimony, ^{http://www.jfk-assas...ol7/page347.php}

^{38. Captain Fritz, WC Testimony, Vol IV, p.204 http://www.jfk-assas...ol4/page204.php}

^{39. Mooney signals Fritz, http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page284.php, Fritz arrived and was in frontof TSBD at 12:58, then went inside according to his WC testimony, 37}

40. Dep. Eugene Boone, WC testimony, Vol 6, pp 204-205. ^{http://www.jfk-assas...ol4/page205.php}

^{Other Related Reading:}

"The Elevator Escape Theory" by Richard Gilbride, ^{http://www.reopenken...t/gilbride.html}

^{Greg Parker Website; http://reopenkennedy...-cop-encounters}

^{"The Man in the Dark Sports Coat" by William Weston http://www.manuscrip...PQ/sports~1.htm}

^{Duke Lane thread on Lancer forum : http://www.jfklancer...g_id=82512}

^{Don Thomas , "Rewriting History: Bugliosi Parses the Testimony" http://www.maryferre...s_the_Testimony}

^{"Dealey Plaza Conspiracy Witnesses, HSCA Staff Report", http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf}

^{"A Comprehensive Review of Reclaiming History", by James DiEugenio}

^Richard"s

Questions and observations:

1. Electrical Power Events: Geneva Hine's phone system lights go off, just before12:30. Was this a power outage or just no calls at that time?; Truly and Baker are unable to get an elevator down from the 5^th floor less than a minute after the shots. Sandra Styles said she and Vicky Adams tried the passenger elevator in front, but when it did not work, they went to the backstairs. The West elevator has power when Mooney gets on the 1^st floor,then loses power on the 2^nd floor, 12:33-12:36. Who cut power to elevator at that precise moment? Select Elevator circuits and possibly he phone system circuit were reported off, but I have seen no report of all power to the TSBD being off, which would have happened if the Main Circuit breaker was thrown. The 3 elevators would have been on their own dedicated circuits, as would the phone system. The evidence supports the possibility that selected circuits may have been turned on/off at various times just before and after 12:30. This rules out random fuse failure (or circuit breakers being tripped) and supports the notion of manipulation of the power circuits. Was the Fuse/Breaker box located in the basement of the TSBD?

2. Why is there no exchange of information with Mooney when he is passing the men he believes might be DPD officers on the stairs? They would have been the very first respondents on the scene. If you were Mooney, wouldn't you at least ask them a few questions … like Had they seen a man with a rifle roaming around on an upper floor? And why were they were leaving the scene so soon?

3. There are three general descriptions of unknown men seen on the upper floors, in some cases with rifles, just before and at the time of the shooting:

First man: a younger white man who was slender.

Second man: another white man who may have been older, heavier, and wearing a tan jacket or coat and possibly glasses.

Third man: a dark complected man who may have been Latin/Mexican/Negro.

4. Secret Service men were reported on the back entrance dock and at the front entrance within minutes of the shots, and well before Forrest Sorrels was the first actual SS agent to return to Dealey Plaza/ TSBD.

5. Unidentified men who were thought to be police officers:

A. "Some" plain clothes officers seen by Officer Mooney as he ascends the NW stairs from the 2^nd floor

B. Weatherford searches the 1^st floor with an unknown DPD detective

6. Unidentified Civilians:

A. Man seen in front elevator by Sawyer

B. Two men seen by rear elevator seen by Baker (may be Lovelady and Shelley)

7. Individuals seen leaving the scene:

A. Man seen by Worrel

B. Man seen by Carr

C. Man seen by Craig

D. Woman in car arrested by Craig.

You are right, Bill. The Timeline is ripe to be updated. Including the items you have mentioned, here is the short list of updates I believe are appropriate to include:

1. PrayerMan coming out onto the steps

2. Movement of Lovelady, Shelley, and Frazier after leaving steps

3. Vicky Adams encounter with what she believes are 2 plain clothes DPD in the West Elevator on the 2nd floor (after power has gone out)

4. Denham arrest of subject on 3rd floor

Other items I want to add, but need to get a good time range on:

• Gloria Calvary encounter with Lovelady and Shelley

• Truly call to Aikens to get Oswald info from Employment application

• Lovelady and Shelley moving to guard the elevators

And anything on the whereabouts of Jack Daugherty.

I would welcome any input for time-stamping the above items, with citations of course.

One other item concerning the unidentified flim clip Bill Kelly has posted.

If we can identify the police officer who pulled up on the Three Wheeler Cycle, he should have filed a report of his activities.

That report may list the time he arrived and parked in front of the TSBD entrance.

This is the film that I originally posted at the beginning of this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDccfK-RRE

Is that Prayer Man on the steps?

Can anyone tell us who filmed this sequence, and can we estimate when it took place?

It appears to me that it is about five to ten minutes after the last shot.

It would also be cool if someone with the ability can isolate near the end of this film - about 4:36 - the "College Boy" with dark, long sleeved shirt and white t-shirt walking down the steps and walking in front of the mail box?

I'd like to compare him to "Prayer Man" and also see if it could be Oswald or Frazer.

Bill,

First off, I think the two portions of that clip may possibly show two different individuals: A man standing back near the NW corner where PM was seen earlier, and then "College Boy".

Now, focusing only on "College Boy", there is a visual clue. Postal Collection Boxes are typically 48" tall. College Boy is standing right next to it. If the collection box is 4 foot, College Boy appears too short for LHO.

If we could show the Collection Box is shorter than 48", it would be time to reconsider some possibilities.

Sean,

I wonder why Shelley would lie about being on the "island?"

Was it just a faulty memory?

--Tommy

He and Lovelady are just at the 'island'.

In a second or two they will turn around and notice Baker and Truly at the TSBD front entrance.

Sean,

OK.

In his WC testimony, Shelley said that they ran out "on" (onto?) the island, but in the clip it appears that he and Lovelady are walking down the middle of Elm Street Extension, towards the railway yard / parking lot.

At the very end of the clip, it looks like Lovelady starts running in that direction, leaving Shelley behind.

Thanks,

--Tommy

Edit:

I watched it frame-by-frame as my old computer was downloading the clip at a slowish wi-fi "hot spot," and I noticed that when the sun shines briefly on him a couple of times, one can see that the shorter, "Lovelady" figure has a white collar. Which leads me to believe that this isn't Lovelady after all.

Tommy,

Can you post the frame (or frames) where you believe you detect a white collar?

There are numerous white artifacts that flash on the clip in the vicinity of Lovelady and the man next to him, and also on the TSBD in the background. That would explain why the white spot only appears "briefly on him". I believe that is probably what you are seeing.

Major development.

Gary Mack has just emailed John Mytton, a LN poster at Duncan's forum:

While the image is an interesting find, the Prayer Man question has probably been answered. I recently sent the Couch and Darnell frames to Buell Frazier and asked what he thought. First, he wouldn’t confirm himself being on the top step because the image isn’t clear enough. He then re-confirmed that Lovelady and Shelley were out on the steps with him, just as he has always said, but he couldn’t confirm Shelley, either, due to the image quality.

Next I asked about Shelley’s appearance and learned he was a little taller than Lovelady (who was 5’8”), had red hair and a slender build. When I asked if Shelley usually wore a coat and tie to work Buell said no, he “dressed daily in slacks and sport shirts.” And he repeated that he, Lovelady and Shelley stayed on the steps for “a short time” after the last shot, but he didn’t estimate how long.

So unless Buell Frazier is still part of the cover-up plot, TSBD “Miscellaneous Department” manager William Shelley, by elimination, must be Prayer Man. According to Shelley’s testimony, “I didn’t do anything for a minute” following the last shot, so the man was standing on the steps before, during and after the time Darnell and Couch filmed those brief scenes.

Gary Mack

**

This is a real breakthrough, and I for one am very grateful to Gary for taking the trouble to contact Buell Wesley Frazier.

Why is it a breakthrough?

Well, not because of the Shelley idea.

For Shelley's own testimony, and that of the person with him Billy Lovelady, rules him out as Prayer Man:

Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly?

Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.

Mr. BALL - And Truly?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?

MMr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.

Mr. BALL - Were they moving at the time, walking or running?

Mr. SHELLEY - Well, they were moving, yes.

Darnell shows Baker just a couple of seconds away from the building entrance.

Prayer Man is still standing up on the steps.

So Shelley is ruled out. Period.

(Unless, that is, someone wants to accuse him and Lovelady of lying in their WC testimony about their run out on to the 'island'. Who wants to go first?)

The reason Buell Wesley Frazier's response is a breakthrough is that Bill Shelley appears to be the only possibility BWF himself can offer when presented with the Prayer Man image. (Although it's not quite clear from Gary's message whether BWF himself nominated Shelley or whether that's Gary's own suggestion.)

Given that he is not giving us some new revelation as to the presence of some hitherto unmentioned other person on the steps at that time (i.e. a stranger to the building), and given that Prayer Man cannot possibly be Shelley, we have just received startling confirmation that Prayer Man can only reasonably be Lee Oswald.

BWF probably knows it's Lee but--for the most understandable reasons in the world--cannot say so.

However, to give him credit, he's just done the next best thing.

Excellent that we finally have heard from Buell Frazier. Would have been nice to see the actual correspondence between BWF and Gary.

But I agree, Sean. BWF, who was standing a couple feet away at the time, has effectively limited the possibilities to Shelley and Lovelady. A powerful statement against any other employee or any stranger being at Prayer Man's location. And we have thoroughly covered the possibilities of either Shelley or Lovelady being PM previously.

This thread just got a turbo boost.

On a side note, this throws a knuckleball into the previous discussions concerning the identification of Shelley and Senkel in the William Shelley thread.

Hi Guys

Are there any pictures, images or film of Shelley circa November 1963? Was he interviewed by any TV crew, snapped in a clear(ish) image or does Buell Wesley Frazier even have an old image of the two of them together around that time?

Sean, I have a couple of questions if you don’t mind.

After reviewing the Darnell film we can clearly see Baker running towards the steps at speed and apart from a lightly running lady in a dress no one else appears to be travelling or even reacting with anywhere near the same speed or purpose. From the speed of Bakers motion it stands to reason that unless he (Baker) suddenly slows down, pauses or stops when he reaches the steps of TSBD, his forward motion will likely carry him right up the steps and into the building. In fact this is the very reason I am convinced Baker enters the building alone and without Truly.

Now herein lays my question. PM man can clearly be seen standing towards the top left of the steps in a relatively consistent position and pose as we have seen him in earlier film/images as Baker reaches the bottom step. So if Baker does indeed continue his run up the steps he will surely pass PM man before entering the building. How does this fit into the sequence and timing of the Baker/Oswald encounter?

Could you please clarify or elaborate on how Oswald/PM, entering the building after Baker but before Truly (whom I presume is somewhere in the melee at the bottom of the steps) and projects himself into a position where he encounters, attracts suspicion and is questioned by Baker necessitating the need for Truly to interject that he (Oswald) is an employee?

Kind regards - Steve

Hi Steve,

here is a link to a thread that tried to establish the photo ID of William Shelley:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19178&hl=%2Bwilliam+%2Bshelley

After BWF's description of Shelley being taller than Lovelady, red hair, and slender, it is probably time to revisit.

Major development.

Gary Mack has just emailed John Mytton, a LN poster at Duncan's forum:

While the image is an interesting find, the Prayer Man question has probably been answered. I recently sent the Couch and Darnell frames to Buell Frazier and asked what he thought. First, he wouldn’t confirm himself being on the top step because the image isn’t clear enough. He then re-confirmed that Lovelady and Shelley were out on the steps with him, just as he has always said, but he couldn’t confirm Shelley, either, due to the image quality.

Next I asked about Shelley’s appearance and learned he was a little taller than Lovelady (who was 5’8”), had red hair and a slender build. When I asked if Shelley usually wore a coat and tie to work Buell said no, he “dressed daily in slacks and sport shirts.” And he repeated that he, Lovelady and Shelley stayed on the steps for “a short time” after the last shot, but he didn’t estimate how long.

So unless Buell Frazier is still part of the cover-up plot, TSBD “Miscellaneous Department” manager William Shelley, by elimination, must be Prayer Man. According to Shelley’s testimony, “I didn’t do anything for a minute” following the last shot, so the man was standing on the steps before, during and after the time Darnell and Couch filmed those brief scenes.

Gary Mack

**

This is a real breakthrough, and I for one am very grateful to Gary for taking the trouble to contact Buell Wesley Frazier.

Why is it a breakthrough?

Well, not because of the Shelley idea.

For Shelley's own testimony, and that of the person with him Billy Lovelady, rules him out as Prayer Man:

Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly?

Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.

Mr. BALL - And Truly?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?

MMr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.

Mr. BALL - Were they moving at the time, walking or running?

Mr. SHELLEY - Well, they were moving, yes.

Darnell shows Baker just a couple of seconds away from the building entrance.

Prayer Man is still standing up on the steps.

So Shelley is ruled out. Period.

(Unless, that is, someone wants to accuse him and Lovelady of lying in their WC testimony about their run out on to the 'island'. Who wants to go first?)

The reason Buell Wesley Frazier's response is a breakthrough is that Bill Shelley appears to be the only possibility BWF himself can offer when presented with the Prayer Man image. (Although it's not quite clear from Gary's message whether BWF himself nominated Shelley or whether that's Gary's own suggestion.)

Given that he is not giving us some new revelation as to the presence of some hitherto unmentioned other person on the steps at that time (i.e. a stranger to the building), and given that Prayer Man cannot possibly be Shelley, we have just received startling confirmation that Prayer Man can only reasonably be Lee Oswald.

BWF probably knows it's Lee but--for the most understandable reasons in the world--cannot say so.

However, to give him credit, he's just done the next best thing.

Excellent that we finally have heard from Buell Frazier. Would have been nice to see the actual correspondence between BWF and Gary.

But I agree, Sean. BWF, who was standing a couple feet away at the time, has effectively limited the possibilities to Shelley and Lovelady. A powerful statement against any other employee or any stranger being at Prayer Man's location. And we have thoroughly covered the possibilities of either Shelley or Lovelady being PM previously.

This thread just got a turbo boost.

On a side note, this throws a knuckleball into the previous discussions concerning the identification of Shelley and Senkel in the William Shelley thread.

Quote from William Shelley's testimony to the Warren Commission, April 7, 1964:

"(When asked with whom he had lunch out on the front steps) "Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards."

This is an odd thing for Shelley to say, as it is in direct contradiction to the statement given by Lloyd Viles to the FBI on March 23, 1964, in which Viles claims to be on the other side of Elm St. from the TSBD at the time of the assassination:

http://www.history-matters.com/analysis/Witness/

Is it possible that Viles ate his lunch on the steps of the TSBD, as Shelley claimed, and then crossed to the other side of Elm St. before the motorcade arrived?

Robert,

Viles said he was Across Elm St from the main entrance of TSBD with Kounas and Parker

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf

Parker said she was standing with Viles and Kounas

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf

Aiken affidavit of March 20, 1964

does not mention the time of the Truly phone call

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf

Begin excerpt for Truly testimony here

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol7/page382.php

Truly places his call to Aiken at 10-12 minutes after the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter. It this is accurate, that would translate to 12:41 - 12:44.

I would also like to hear Aiken's version of when the call from Truly came, but so far, I cannot find it.

Roy Truly stated to the Warren Commission that after seeing Oswald in the Second Floor lunchroom, about a minute and a half after the assassination, and informing Officer Baker that he was an employee and exonerating him, Truly noticed Oswald missing from a roundup of employees sometime later, and became suspicious.

Although other employees were also missing, some not permitted back into the building after it had been sealed, Truly called the office in the other building requesting information from Oswald's employee application form.

A Mr. H. S. Alken provided this information to Truly, who then mentioned his suspicions of Oswald's absence to senior Dallas Police officer Lumpkin, who had been in the pilot car that stopped in front of the TSBD to inform the traffic policeman there - and the Sixth Floor sniper that the motorcade was only minutes away.

Lumpkin then took Truly up to the Sixth Floor and interrupted Capt. Fritz, then inspecting the newly discovered rifle, to inform him that Truly had something important to tell him - that an employee - Oswald, was missing. Truly then gave Fritz Oswald's Irving address that he had obtained a few minutes earlier from H.S. Alken.

Sean Murphy said in another thread that H.S. Alken had been questioned and gave a statement, but I can't find it. I'd like to know what Alken said, and what time Truly called him to get Oswald's address.

BK

There is some information about Aiken here

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=145742

There was an employee at the other building who kept the files on employees who Truly called seeking Oswald's address. I don't believe this employee was questioned.

BK

Bill,

This sounds like it might have been an office worker or secretary.

Do you have any other info?

Regarding a full accounting of all employees who were in the TSBD, the FBI did exactly that.

On March 16, 1964, WC General Counsel Lee Rankin sent a letter to the FBI (Hoover) requesting a signed statement be obtained from each person known to have been in the building on November 22, 1963.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11104&relPageId=2

The FBI complied with that request and more. On April 3, 1964 J. Edgar Hoover sent Rankin copies of 73 signed statements. There were not only statements from all known individuals from the TSBD Building, but also statements from 3 employees who worked at the warehouse at 1917 North Houston Street (none of them were in the TSBD that day).

Haddon Spurgeion Aiken was at the warehouse on North Houston

Edward Shields was at Mullendorf’s café with James Lacy and Givens

Franklin Emmet Wester, Stockman at Warehouse ate lunch in the warehouse

The FBI also took statements from several employees who did not show up for work or had left the building earlier to go somewhere for lunch that day.

Virginia Barnum worked at Mcgraw Hill that day but went out for lunch.

Jack Cason, President of the TSBD, left the building at 12:10 and went home

Warren Caster, District Manager for Southwestern Publishing, was at N Texas State University that day

Spaulding Earnest Jones, Manager of the Macmillan Co. was out for lunch sitting at the Blue Front Restaurant

Herbert Junker was having lunch with Jones at the Blue Front when news of the assassination came.

Helen Palmer of McGraw Hill did not go to work that day, but she did go to Love Field

The FBI did not obtain a statement from Joe Bergin.

He was a Regional Manager for Scott Foresman and was in a passenger airliner that day and did not go to work.

The FBI made a comprehensive effort to locate every employee and their whereabouts that day.

To suggest that both the FBI and the entire group of TBSD employees failed to notice another employee, or a stranger standing on the steps is walking on thin ice.

*Edited to specify the location of the person in question (PM).

Thanks for proving my point, Richard. The FBI obtained statements from people they believed were IN the building on 11-22. They did not receive statements from ALL the employees of the second warehouse. So, how many employees worked in that building? Almost certainly more than three. So where did these other workers eat their lunch on 11-22? And from where did they watch the motorcade? We have NO idea.

The fact remains that Prayer Man is too blurry to be identified as Oswald, and can not be proclaimed to have been Oswald via Occam's Razor or any other method.

We don't know who it was. It MIGHT have been Oswald. That's significant. Let's not pretend it isn't. But that's where it's gonna rest without some sort of corroborative statement from the relatives of Oswald, Baker or Truly, or perhaps even Buell Frazier. It's gotta move beyond "we think it looks like him and can't figure out who else it could be" before anyone can say "Hey, it's Oswald!" and not look a little silly.

As for me, I suspect "Prayer Man" was a woman. There's something about the arms and neck, I suppose. There were a number of women claiming to have been on the steps who've never been identified in the photos. We simply lack the resources to identify these people, and match the names with the faces.

Perhaps Gary Mack can ask Frazier to go through the photos and footage of the steps and ID as many people as possible. I think Danny Arce is still alive. Maybe he can be approached as well.

Pat,

Your point has not been proven. And I think we will see that your assertion was incorrect.

The FBI was charged with getting statements from everyone who was in the TSBD that day. They did exactly that.

In addition, they took statements from the three employees at the warehouse at 1917 North Houston. You are implying they took only a random sampling of the employees there. That would be an inefficient method to gather evidence, and it was not the case.

In 2000, Jerry Organ researched the history of the TSBD and wrote an article titled “Murder Perch to Museum”. It now appears on the McAdams website

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/organ4.htm

Here is a quote from that article, below (note that the TSBD was formerly called the Sexton Building):

“…In 1963, the year the company consolidated most of its operation in the former Sexton Building, it employed 33 workers, including 19 warehouse men, of whom four remained at the old warehouse at 1917 N. Houston Street, a few blocks north. Most Depository workers used the parking lot of this smaller warehouse …”

Four employees at the North Houston Warehouse.

I previously listed the 3 employees interviewed who were working at the North Houston warehouse that day, Aiken, Shields, and Wester. There were 2 other employees from the warehouse who were “on loan” to the TSBD to help with the work load and laying the floors: Danny Arce and Bonnie Ray Williams.

Link to Arce testimony below:

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol6/page364.php

As you know, Arce and Williams were also interviewed.

In other words, all the known employees of both buildings were interviewed or accounted for.

Now if you have reliable information that there was an employee in either building that was unaccounted for, please post the name.

If not, I believe this issue is settled.

Regarding a full accounting of all employees who were in the TSBD, the FBI did exactly that.

On March 16, 1964, WC General Counsel Lee Rankin sent a letter to the FBI (Hoover) requesting a signed statement be obtained from each person known to have been in the building on November 22, 1963.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11104&relPageId=2

The FBI complied with that request and more. On April 3, 1964 J. Edgar Hoover sent Rankin copies of 73 signed statements. There were not only statements from all known individuals from the TSBD Building, but also statements from 3 employees who worked at the warehouse at 1917 North Houston Street (none of them were in the TSBD that day).

Haddon Spurgeion Aiken was at the warehouse on North Houston

Edward Shields was at Mullendorf’s café with James Lacy and Givens

Franklin Emmet Wester, Stockman at Warehouse ate lunch in the warehouse

The FBI also took statements from several employees who did not show up for work or had left the building earlier to go somewhere for lunch that day.

Virginia Barnum worked at Mcgraw Hill that day but went out for lunch.

Jack Cason, President of the TSBD, left the building at 12:10 and went home

Warren Caster, District Manager for Southwestern Publishing, was at N Texas State University that day

Spaulding Earnest Jones, Manager of the Macmillan Co. was out for lunch sitting at the Blue Front Restaurant

Herbert Junker was having lunch with Jones at the Blue Front when news of the assassination came.

Helen Palmer of McGraw Hill did not go to work that day, but she did go to Love Field

The FBI did not obtain a statement from Joe Bergin.

He was a Regional Manager for Scott Foresman and was in a passenger airliner that day and did not go to work.

The FBI made a comprehensive effort to locate every employee and their whereabouts that day.

To suggest that both the FBI and the entire group of TBSD employees failed to notice another employee, or a stranger standing on the steps is walking on thin ice.

*Edited to specify the location of the person in question (PM).

Here's "Prayer Man" and three photos of Oswald that was put together by someone who is not a member of this forum and emailed to me a while back, and I'm sorry I've been off line and haven't had time to post it, and haven't kept up with this thread so I don't know if it has already been posted.

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2013/prayer-man-at-tsbd

I think it makes it clear that "Prayer Man" could most certainly be Oswald, though I am also giving odds on it possibly being B.W. Frazer.

I don't buy the speculation that "Prayer Man" is eating Oswald's cheese sandwich, drinking a coke, taking pictures or eating an apple, or that this is where the encounter with Baker and Truly takes place - as Baker would have no reason to suspect "Prayer Man" of being suspicious, and he can't be drinking a coke - if he is Oswald because he didn't buy the coke yet. I also don't think Baker and Truly found Oswald sitting at a table in the second floor lunchroom drinking a coke, as the SS reenactment photo would indicate.

I also place more credence in the original Youtube film of "College Boy" standing on the steps and then walking down and east on Elm, who I believe could be "Prayer Man" and/or Oswald, and this segment needs to be identified as to who took the film and who is in it.

I'd also like to hear what Buel Wesley Frazer has to say about it.

BK

Bill, you say Oswald "didn't buy the coke yet'. Is there any reason why he could not have bought it befor he came to the entrance. What proof have you that he hadn't "bought it yet?

BK: Well the proof is in the film - as Baker has yet to enter the building, and we know that he runs to the back of the first floor with Truly and then goes up the steps behind Truly and sees Oswald through the window of the second floor lunchroom door, having entered the vestibule through the south door. Baker moves closer and sees Oswald walking away from him through the window and then opens the door and confronts him before he buys the coke. Truly ids Oswald as an employee and Baker and Truly move on while Oswald buys his coke and then leves through the same door he entered - the south door that leads to the office, where he passes Mrs. Reid with the full coke in hand.

So why not stick to what is known to be true - as speculating whether "Prayer Man" is holding a coke, camera or sandwich is just that pure speculation that doesn't add to what we know. Of course "Prayer Man" could be someone other than Oswald and be holding a coke. But if it is Oswald, he hasn't bought the coke yet.

While Dave Reitzes tries to discount all witness testimony in his Skeptic article, as i mention in my "The Perspective Part" blog post - we are entirely dependent on what witnesses say happened, and can believe them or not, but we still depend on them to tell us what happened.

BK

Here's "Prayer Man" and three photos of Oswald that was put together by someone who is not a member of this forum and emailed to me a while back, and I'm sorry I've been off line and haven't had time to post it, and haven't kept up with this thread so I don't know if it has already been posted.

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2013/prayer-man-at-tsbd

I think it makes it clear that "Prayer Man" could most certainly be Oswald, though I am also giving odds on it possibly being B.W. Frazer.

I don't buy the speculation that "Prayer Man" is eating Oswald's cheese sandwich, drinking a coke, taking pictures or eating an apple, or that this is where the encounter with Baker and Truly takes place - as Baker would have no reason to suspect "Prayer Man" of being suspicious, and he can't be drinking a coke - if he is Oswald because he didn't buy the coke yet. I also don't think Baker and Truly found Oswald sitting at a table in the second floor lunchroom drinking a coke, as the SS reenactment photo would indicate.

I also place more credence in the original Youtube film of "College Boy" standing on the steps and then walking down and east on Elm, who I believe could be "Prayer Man" and/or Oswald, and this segment needs to be identified as to who took the film and who is in it.

I'd also like to hear what Buel Wesley Frazer has to say about it.

BK

Bill, you say Oswald "didn't buy the coke yet'. Is there any reason why he could not have bought it befor he came to the entrance. What proof have you that he hadn't "bought it yet"?

Seems like there are several unspoken assumptions in this thread.

One is that PM cannot be on the top step/or Entrance Lobby when Baker goes by, and then also see Baker in the 2nd floor lunch room area.

A second one is that Oswald could only have purchased one Coke that day.

In my own mind, I have not made those concessions just yet.

I understand that Sean has presented a comprehensive scenario that eliminates the 2nd floor encounter. He has most definitely done an outstanding job providing News articles, Photo and film evidence, witness testimony, and applied sound logic and critical thinking to make his case. A tremendous effort that he has shared with the JFK Research community.

But I also believe that we can begin from the same starting point (with Prayer Man on the steps, Baker and Truly coming in through the entrance) and entertain the possibility of some of the story unfolding in a different way, or in a slightly different form than Sean's scenario.

If this were the Imperial Reflex camera Prayer Man was holding, would he be bringing it up to his face to take pictures? As far as I remember, this camera was held at chest level and the photographer looked down into the viewfinder. This was one of the hangups in Marina Oswald's testimony.

Robert,

Good point.

However....

He might have been raising it in order to change the shutter speed and/or the aperture setting...

--Tommy

If I'm not mistaken, I believe both the shutter speed and aperture setting on the Imperial Reflex camera were fixed. It was not that expensive a camera.

Another possibility -- the Imperial Reflex has a plastic knob that turns to advance the film. PM is standing in a shadowy area. He might have raised the camera up higher to get a better look at the film sequence indicator to make sure it had been wound correctly for the next shot. A common camera issue in those days.

We have reasonably established Prayer Man as a TSBD man, his clothing indicating a manual labor type employee as opposed to a managerial type that would be wearing suit and tie. The available candidates that meet these criteria are limited. They include order fillers, janitor, clerks, and warehousemen. Below is a list of TSBD employees who meet that description. I have added observations regarding their locations when the motorcade passed the TSBD, as claimed in testimony or revealed in film and photo evidence, along with some comments regarding their possibility of being Prayer Man.

Danny Arce Floor laying crew at the TSBD - Watched Presidential Limo from North side of Elm Street in front of TSBD, (to the West of the Entrance). Wrong location; not a candidate.

Jack Dougherty - 5th floor of TSBD 10' from elevator; he is described by Roy Truly as being a great big husky fellow, Description and location disqualify him from consideration as Prayer Man.

Buell Wesley Frazier - Top of front steps at the Center Rail. His precise description of his location, along with his tall thin physique rule him out. See earlier discussion about Frazier (and photos) in this thread.

Charles Givens - Mullendorf's Cafe or Parking lot at Record Street. Being at least one block away means it could not have been Givens.

James Jarman - 5th floor window below sniper's lair. Photo evidence shows he was on the 5^th floor.

Carl Edward Jones - sitting on the front steps / out by Elm Street with Truly, Campbell and Reid. Saw the President slump after being shot. He cannot be Prayer Man.

Roy Edward Lewis - standing with some ladies in the middle of the front steps. Roy Edwards is almost certainly the African American watching from behind the West Column in Altgens. He is not Prayer Man.

Billy Lovelady - front steps. Gone from the Steps well before the Darnell shot was taken. Corroborated testimony and film show he is not Prayer Man.

Harold Norman - 5th floor window below sniper's lair. Photo evidence shows he was on the 5^th floor.

Eddie Piper sitting on a box watching through the second window from the corner on the 1st floor. Location and other factors rule him out.

Troy Eugene West - making coffee on the 1st floor. Did not know JFK had been shot until people rushed into building talking about it. He is not Prayer Man.

Bonnie Ray Wiliams - 5th floor window below sniper's lair. Photo evidence shows he was on the 5^th floor.

Who's left?

Excellent work, Richard, it's good to get these listed systematically like this.

Just a couple of small additions to copperfasten your points:

-Billy Lovelady is even more definitively ruled out as Prayer Man for the simple reason that the two show up right beside each other in the Wiegman footage:

Now unless someone is going to come forward and tell us that Prayer Man is actually a rather butch woman, we're still stuck with the mother of all questions:

Is Prayer Man none other than Lee Oswald, coke bottle in hand?

Could it really be that simple? You bet your life it could.

Except I do not see a coke in Prayer Man's hands yet,

maybe a later film will show that,

a film taken after Prayer Man has gone upstairs

to the coke machine.

Of course I make no claim to being

a photo expert.

BTW, compliments to Richard Hocking and yourself Sean

for the breakdown of TSBD employees.

You and Richard have done a fantastic job on this thread.

Ladies and Gentleman,

I am a new poster but a long time lurker. I have been a student of the assassination since the late 80's and find this post to be most intriguing. It has taken me several days to follow the action but have since had a few thoughts. I apologize in advance for not being able to cut and paste the photos and videos that I wish to reference, but I would like to share my impressions.

It appears to me that Prayer man is holding a camera. He raises it to his face as the motorcade passes and then lowers it as the action passes. He then rotates his body left to face the crowd on the stairwell as they begin to react to the commotion following the shots.

From the photos and videos in this thread, there is a point when Prayer man is looking to his right and in the next video rotates his body to his left, his hands never change position, indicative of someone holding a camera looking through a viewfinder.

Another observation. If Prayer Man was Oswald and was drinking his Coke, ie, the glare visible in some of the footage, would his Coke still be full as Mrs. Reid testified to later, or would it have been half empty by then. This assumes PM/ Oswald returned to the 2nd floor from the entrance?

Another thought, if Prayer Man/Oswald was eating his lunch and ham sandwich at the front entrance as suggested, would the ham sandwich show a reflection as seen in the video?

I am jumping into deep water, but you have to get wet at some point. I mean no slight on the amazing work Sean and the rest of you have done. These are just field notes from someone familiar with the assassination and intrigued by the questions brought forth in this thread.

Much respect to all of you.

Dave

David,

Thanks for your observations.

There are several other members who believe Prayer Man is holding a camera.

There is also an interesting story that lends support to that interpretation.

Oswald's Imperial Reflex camera is unaccounted for that day.

On the afternoon of November 22, 1963, the Ruth Paine residence became a beehive of Dallas Police activity. Her home and garage were thoroughly searched by a team of Dallas Police officers looking for anything that belonged to Oswald, any type of evidence that might have significance in the assassination. This team included Detectives Adamcik, Stovall, Rose, Moore, Walthers and Detective McCabe of the Irving PD. They actually searched Paine's residence on two days, the 22nd and the 23rd.

Oswald owned two cameras: A Minox, and an Imperial Reflex. The search team reported finding one camera that belonged to Oswald and one that belonged to Ruth Paine. The DPD took pictures of Oswald's possessions. One of the pictures shows a camera:

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/a/a7/Photo_wcd102_052.jpg

The camera in the picture is not the Imperial Reflex. It does resemble the Minox.

Could Oswald have taken the Imperial Reflex to the TSBD on Friday, the 22nd? And more specifically, could that be the object in PM's hands?

The saga of the Imperial Reflex continues. On December 8th, According to Robert Oswald, he stops by the Paine's house to pick up the remainder of Lee's possessions. He takes a box out of the garage that contains several items including -- the Imperial Reflex Camera. How did this slip past the Police search team? It is after all, the camera alleged to have taken the Backyard photos.

In February and March of 1964, the FBI is trying to clean up the loose ends and questions regarding the Camera issues. Robert Oswald turns over the camera to the FBI. James Hosty interviews McCabe. McCabe now remembers that he actually saw the Imperial Reflex and moved it onto a dresser because he did not think it belonged to Oswald.

None of the other members of the Police Search team recalled seeing the Imperial Reflex while they were there.

The FBI issued some reports to lay the issue to rest.

Some reading material on this issue:

http://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/mccabe.htm

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pdf/WH25_CE_2557.pdf

Regarding the Bond #5 photo, Gary Mack says the man in the Brown suit and hat is actually Wiegman.

He also sent a film clip from a Don Cook/KTVT film. Gary said James Darnell is the guy with no hat, with the camera at 1:59 in the film clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kaVM2-9f3Q&feature=player_embedded

Hi

Can you please ask GM who he thinks 'Prayer Man' might be?

Thanks - Steve

Hi Steve,

In post #57 (p4) of this thread Bill Kelly posted this concerning Gary's opinion:

" ... Mack also says that no one who worked at the TSBD saw Oswald on the steps, or said they did, and the man is too short to be the 5' 9" Oswald, and that by the time the frame is filmed Oswald is on or waiting for the bus, which doesn't make any sense if Baker runs into Oswald on the second floor about a minute later. I think Gary will alter that statement after reflection. ..."

Edit: Gary replies that the quote above concerns a different film clip (not the Darnell clip with PM in it).

This quote is probably in relation to the clip posted by Bill Kelly in his original post on this thread. To my knowledge, no one has identified the photographer/source of that clip.

Hi Richard

Thank you so much for taking the time to express GM's views and even though Gary was kind enough to mail me directly I appreciate your effort.

Thanks - Steve

You are welcome, Steve.

Another message from Gary Mack to clarify his position, paraphrased in Purple below:

[begin paraphrase]

Gary is positive of his identification of Jimmy Darnell in the Cook film.

Gary is having second thoughts about the ID of the man in the Brown suit and hat in the Bond #5. Not positive at this point of his ID.

Regarding PM: Gary feels PM is Billy Lovelady who was shorter and heavier than Oswald. He also says the Couch film shows two other men, not Shelley and Lovelady walking along Elm, so Lovelady must still be on the steps.

[end paraphrase]

A final note: Gary is a member of this forum and may be contacted through the Personal Message feature.

Richard,

I'm sorry, but Gary Mack cannot possibly believe that Prayer Man is Billy Lovelady.

He knows that the Wiegman frames show Prayer Man standing in the shadows beside Lovelady:

And Gary cannot possibly be telling people that Lovelady and Bill Shelley lied outlandishly in their WC testimony.

So can you please give us the exact words Gary used in his message on this matter?

Thanks,

Sean

Sean,

Since the forum Guidelines advise against reproducing exact extracts from Private emails, I tried to accurately paraphrase the essence of Gary's position. BTW, Gary originally contacted me to identify James Darnell. I asked him for his opinion on PM and he replied.

GM exact quote in Purple below:

"As for PM, I think he’s Billy Lovelady who was shorter and heavier than Oswald; also, the Couch film shows two other men, not Shelley and Lovelady, walking along Elm so that means Lovelady must still be on the steps."

I feel like I am doing a bit of tight-rope walking here, acting as a go-between, but I did it because I know there are forum members who are interested in what Gary Mack's take is on PM.

To be perfectly clear about my own position:

• I remain convinced that Lovelady and Shelley are leaving the Steps area before Baker arrives as seen in the Couch film

• I believe PM is Lee Oswald

• Frazier and LHO are both visible in the Darnell shot, and they both are the proper height.

Another message from Gary Mack to clarify his position, paraphrased in Purple below:

[begin paraphrase]

Gary is positive of his identification of Jimmy Darnell in the Cook film.

Gary is having second thoughts about the ID of the man in the Brown suit and hat in the Bond #5. Not positive at this point of his ID.

Regarding PM: Gary feels PM is Billy Lovelady who was shorter and heavier than Oswald. He also says the Couch film shows two other men, not Shelley and Lovelady walking along Elm, so Lovelady must still be on the steps.

[end paraphrase]

A final note: Gary is a member of this forum and may be contacted through the Personal Message feature.

Regarding the Bond #5 photo, Gary Mack says the man in the Brown suit and hat is actually Wiegman.

He also sent a film clip from a Don Cook/KTVT film. Gary said James Darnell is the guy with no hat, with the camera at 1:59 in the film clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kaVM2-9f3Q&feature=player_embedded

Hi

Can you please ask GM who he thinks 'Prayer Man' might be?

Thanks - Steve

Hi Steve,

In post #57 (p4) of this thread Bill Kelly posted this concerning Gary's opinion:

" ... Mack also says that no one who worked at the TSBD saw Oswald on the steps, or said they did, and the man is too short to be the 5' 9" Oswald, and that by the time the frame is filmed Oswald is on or waiting for the bus, which doesn't make any sense if Baker runs into Oswald on the second floor about a minute later. I think Gary will alter that statement after reflection. ..."

Edit: Gary replies that the quote above concerns a different film clip (not the Darnell clip with PM in it).

This quote is probably in relation to the clip posted by Bill Kelly in his original post on this thread. To my knowledge, no one has identified the photographer/source of that clip.

Regarding the Bond #5 photo, Gary Mack says the man in the Brown suit and hat is actually Wiegman.

He also sent a film clip from a Don Cook/KTVT film. Gary said James Darnell is the guy with no hat, with the camera at 1:59 in the film clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kaVM2-9f3Q&feature=player_embedded

Interesting excerpt from Dave Rietzes site (from another forum)

Officer "E"

.......Though I didn't see exactly where the shots came from, I knew in my own mind they probably came from the corner building as the sound was right and because of the pigeons. So I headed there, got off my motor and entered the building (the Texas School Book Depository). It took a while because of the crowd; they had started moving in every direction.

The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do......"

http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles6.html

Another very interesting quote from Baker, Ray. Do you know when that interview took place? It is presented in the context of evidence for the HSCA, but I did not see a date for the quotes.