Richard Hocking

Bill Kelly wrote:

... I always wondered why the TSBD employee who was visiting a friend working at a parking lot on Elm didn't pass Oswald when he returned to work, and that's because Oswald had cross Elm and was on the other side of the street

You are referring to Charles Givens, I believe. If Givens and Officer Harkness testimony are both accurate, the scene in front of the TSBD plays out something like this:

On hearing the shots, Givens starts back towards the TSBD. Officer Harkness goes to the back of the TSBD to watch the exits. After only a minute or two, Harkness moves back to the front entrance. By his own estimate, he is there at 12:33, guarding the front door. Givens claims after briefly surveying the scene from Houston and Elm, he tries to re-enter the TSBD and is turned back by a policeman (Harkness). So Givens remains outside with other TSBD employees who cannot go back in. Skaggs, Murray and other photos show Roy Edward Lewis and a man I believe is Givens standing on the TSBD steps with Harkness and Officer Smith standing guard at the door.

If Oswald left the front door after 12:33, he would have to have somehow gone past the two officers and also not been noticed by the employees (including Lewis and Givens) milling around the steps and the front of the TSBD.

This gives strength to the argument you suggested, that Oswald left through the rear exit of the building, which was not secured until well after the front entrance had guards posted.

Richard,

I believe your "5" is very possibly KTVT cameraman Don Cook, wearing the ID badge on the left side of his jacket. He appears in one of the James Murray photos also, at around the same time.

Chris

Many thanks, Chris.

Here is one of the Murray photo's from Robin Unger's site, showing a different angle on the two men.

Another photo from Robin's site. Not sure who took it, but Don Cook is labeled in it.

So, if Don Cook is #5, who is unidentified man #6?

One candidate is Pierce Allman of WFAA.

Allman was standing on Elm St. near Bill Newman when shots were fired.

He initially ran up the slope of the Grassy Knoll, then went inside the TSBD to call the station (encountering LHO as he entered the front door).

He remained at the TSBD for awhile.

Still need more definite information to place him on the front steps for the above photos.

Edit Update: Allman apparently fit Oswald's description of a man with "crew cut" hair. For Allman to be man #5 or 6, one of them should have a crew cut. I cannot tell from these photos.

Also, we can exclude Robert MacNeil who also entered the TSBD around the same time as Allman. MacNeil had blond hair.

Miss Geneva Hine made an interesting statement in her testimony.

"...

Miss HINE. Yes, sir: I was alone until the lights all went out and the phones

became dead because the motorcade was coming near us and no one was calling

so I got up and thought I could see it from the east window in our office."

How would callers know exactly what time the motorcade was passing the TSBD so they could refrain from calling?

Unfortunately, Mr. Ball does not ask a most logical followup question to determine whether the lights going out and the phone calls ceasing are related to power going off rather than a lack of phone calls.

One other item of interest is her testimony of looking out of an East facing window. She would be the only TSBD employee to do so. Her description of the shots is markedly different from the employees on the other floors inside the building.

"The building vibrated from the result of the explosion coming in... they sounded like cannon shots they were so terrific... "

If there was a shooter in the Dal-Tex building 2nd or 3rd floor, Miss Hine would have been right across the street and experienced the primary shock waves of the rifle fire.

Another part of her testimony that raises questions:

Miss HINE. Yes: I knew it and the girls were discussing it in the office that

morning. Many of them, probably six, had not seen the President close. You

see, I had seen him on two different occasions and I had been very close to him

and so they were lamenting thst they couldn’t go out so I spoke up and said

“I will he glad to answer the telephone so you girls may go out and see the

motorcade” and I had previously answered the telephone when we were in the

other building before we moved in this building, so they were delighted and I

thought nothing about it.

We know Miss Hine had worked in Texas at the TSBD since 1956. President Kennedy was visiting Texas for the first time.

We are left with the impression that Geneva left Texas twice during the last three years on trips that took her "very close" to the President. Once again, Mr. Ball asks no followup question to reveal any details about this interesting claim.

There are two men, both of whom I believe to be news men standing at the top of the entrance steps in Willis 02 and also in Skaggs 12. They may be from WFAA or KTVT. Some time ago I saw a photo that had these men's names, but I have been unable to remember or locate the source.

I am hoping that posting these photos may jog the memory of one or more members here.

The number labels on the photos:

1. I believe to be Roy E. Lewis

2. I believe to be Charles Givens

3 and 4. Officers Barnett and Smith

5. ???

6. ???

7. College Boy

Edit: typo

Skaggs 12 Cropped with photo of Charles Givens insert:

Skaggs-12-w-Givens_zps753d9083.jpg

....

The tall blond woman bears a resemblance to the tall woman standing behind the Truly and Reid figures in the Weigman frame posted by Bjørn Gjerde in Post #872 of this thread.

Also in the Skaggs #12 photo, note the two black men standing on the steps. The one on the left I believe to be Roy Edward Lewis.

Could the black man next to him be Carl Edward Jones? OTOH his short stature brings to mind the reference from Fritz about Oswald eating lunch with "Junior" and a short black man whose name he could not recall.

http://www.jfkassass...?album=24&pos=3

Focusing back on the two black men on the steps in Skaggs 12, here is some WC testimony from Charles Givens (below). Givens was over on Record Street with Edward Shields when he heard the shots.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. GIVENS. Three.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you heard them?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, we broke and ran down that way, and by the time we got to the corner down there of Houston and Elm, everybody was running, going toward the underpass over there by the railroad tracks. And we asked--I asked someone some white fellow there, 'What happened ?" And he said, "Somebody shot the President." Like that. So I stood there for a while, and I went over to try to get to the building after they found out the shots came from there, and when I went over to try to get back in the officer at the door wouldn't let me in.

Mr. BELIN. Did you tell him you worked there?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes; but he still wouldn't let me in. He told me he wouldn't let no one in.

Mr. BELIN. This was the front of Elm Street?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes. So I goes back over to the parking lot and I wait until I seen Junior.

So Givens runs from Record Street over to the corner of Houston and Elm, then goes to the front entrance of the TSBD where the Officer at the door refuses to let him in.

The timing would work for him to be the short black man standing next to Roy Edward Lewis on the steps.

Earlier in his testimony, Givens references being with Junior Jarman at the start of the lunch break:

Mr. BELIN. Now what did you do when you got down there on the first floor?

Mr. GIVENS. When I got down to the first floor Harold Norman, James Jarman and myself, we stood over by the window, and then we said we was going outside and watch the parade, so we walked out and we stood there a while, and then I said, "I believe I will walk up to the parking lot."

All of this fits well with Oswald claiming he was having lunch and saw "Junior" and a short black man whose name he could not recall.

Edit: location typo

Duncan, Is your Lewis suggestion based on physical resemblance, or do you have any information on Ron Lewis being in Dallas on 11/22/63?

Edit: one additional thought. If we know Ron Lewis' height, it could be used as a another factor to consider in the ID of college boy. Perhaps someone with a New Orleans focus might be able to chip in on this.

In the opening post of this thread, Bill Kelly linked a video with a figure later nicknamed "college guy"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDccfK-RRE&feature=player_detailpage

going through the Cook / Cooper film, I noticed this guy:

Cook_frame_0011-CollegeGuy-.gif

He is just walking away from the Entrance Steps to the TSBD. Close resemblance to college guy.

The Youtube link to the Cook Cooper Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kaVM2-9f3Q&feature=player_detailpage

He appears briefly at around the 1:46 mark.

If it's the same guy, we should be able to get a relative Time Stamp for the unidentified video that Bill Kelly posted.

Nice catch, Richard.

I think "College Boy" can also be seen very briefly a little bit later, at 2:21 in the same Cook-Cooper Video. He's standing in the street at the far right of the frame, in the background, not far from the three-wheeler motorcycle. I think the tall blond woman so prominent at 1:47 is also visible to the left, behind the police car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kaVM2-9f3Q&feature=player_detailpage

--Tommy

The tall blond woman bears a resemblance to the tall woman standing behind the Truly and Reid figures in the Weigman frame posted by Bjørn Gjerde in Post #872 of this thread.

Also in the Skaggs #12 photo, note the two black men standing on the steps. The one on the left I believe to be Roy Edward Lewis.

Could the black man next to him be Carl Edward Jones? OTOH his short stature brings to mind the reference from Fritz about Oswald eating lunch with "Junior" and a short black man whose name he could not recall.

http://www.jfkassass...?album=24&pos=3

In the opening post of this thread, Bill Kelly linked a video with a figure later nicknamed "college guy"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDccfK-RRE&feature=player_detailpage

going through the Cook / Cooper film, I noticed this guy:

Cook_frame_0011-CollegeGuy-.gif

He is just walking away from the Entrance Steps to the TSBD. Close resemblance to college guy.

The Youtube link to the Cook Cooper Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kaVM2-9f3Q&feature=player_detailpage

He appears briefly at around the 1:46 mark.

If it's the same guy, we should be able to get a relative Time Stamp for the unidentified video that Bill Kelly posted.

That's a great find Richard. Does anybody recognize him?

He shows up again in Skaggs #12 in front of the West Entrance column, behind the car.

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=24&pos=3

In the opening post of this thread, Bill Kelly linked a video with a figure later nicknamed "college guy"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDccfK-RRE&feature=player_detailpage

going through the Cook / Cooper film, I noticed this guy:

He is just walking away from the Entrance Steps to the TSBD. Close resemblance to college guy.

The Youtube link to the Cook Cooper Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kaVM2-9f3Q&feature=player_detailpage

He appears briefly at around the 1:46 mark.

If it's the same guy, we should be able to get a relative Time Stamp for the unidentified video that Bill Kelly posted.

It is highly unlikely the woman running past Lovelady and Shelley on the Elm St. Extension (in the Couch film) is Gloria Calvary.

The sequence of photos and film should establish the relative likely locations of L&S and Calvary at various times following the shots.

Begin with the last shot fired.

L&S are still on the Entrance Steps.

Calvary, Reed, Westbrook, Hicks, and Dishong are seen together on the curb in front of the Walkway of the North Pergola, in Zapruder.

Next comes the Couch clip, taken moments after the last shot.

L&S are seen moving down Elm St. Extension quite a ways from the steps when the unidentified woman runs past them.

After James Darnell jumped off Press Car 3, he runs West towards the underpass.

As he enters the Pergola area his camera captures Calvary, Hicks and Reed, still together and now on the grass but still in front of the walkway.

At about this same time, one of the Press buses that was behind Press Car #3 has turned the corner onto Elm and is now passing by the North Pergola area. Cabluck is inside.

Cabluck photo #3 captures Calvary, Westbrook, and Dishong in just about the same location as the Darnell frame mentioned above.

These photos show that L&S have had additional time to move further West, either on the Elm St Extension or on the traffic island, while Calvary and the girls are still in front of the Pergola walkway. The distance between L&S and Calvary is shrinking.

At this point, we should insert one more structural consideration. There is a concrete barrier wall that extends from the end of the colonnade of the North Pergola quite a ways towards the point of the traffic island. It is not very high, but looks high enough that women in skirts and high heels would walk around it rather than try to scale it. So Calvary and the girls had two possible routes to get back from their position: Take the sidewalk East towards the tip of the traffic island and cross the Elm street extension to the steps, or walk up the grassy slope to the enclosure at the east end of the colonnade where there is an opening to the Elm St. Extension.

So where did the L&S encounter with Gloria Calvary occur? Unless L&S turned around and went back toward the tip of the traffic island, it is likely that the encounter happened very near the colonnade enclosure opening when Calvary was hurrying back to the TSBD.

Thank you for that analysis, Richard. There definitely seem to be some mistakes in Shelley's testimony and his first day affidavit. Do you think Shelley and Lovelady were at the 1st floor elevators when Truly and Baker arrived there and that Shelley received orders from Truly at that time to guard the elevators? Do you think they were there when Victoria Adams arrived from the 4th floor?

I am still trying to sort this all out. The witness testimony is a free for all with Lovelady and Shelley giving contradictory statements at various times. Regarding your first question (did Shelley and Lovelady arrive at the elevators before Truly and Baker?), consider this: Baker is about to enter the building at just about the same time that James Darnell hops off the convertible at the corner of Houston and Elm. Darnell runs to the West (with Camera running in his hands), and goes all the way to the area in front of the colonnade. That is a distance greater than the distance Truly and Baker would have to cover to get to the NW stairs on the first floor. Darnell then takes film of Calvary on the grass just a few steps from her motorcade viewing spot by the Curb on Elm St.

Now unless Shelley and Lovelady came all the way down to where Gloria was, they still have not had their encounter ...

So the boys still need to pass by Calvary (presumably near the East colonnade enclosure, hear the news from her, go to the first RR tracks, then return to the TSBD first floor through the west entrance to get to the NW stairs. That all makes it very difficult for me to believe S&L were at the elevators when Truly and Baker arrived there.

Regarding your second question, if I were going to place a bet, I would put money on Vicky Adams getting down to the first floor before anyone else arrived there.

It is highly unlikely the woman running past Lovelady and Shelley on the Elm St. Extension (in the Couch film) is Gloria Calvary.

The sequence of photos and film should establish the relative likely locations of L&S and Calvary at various times following the shots.

Begin with the last shot fired.

L&S are still on the Entrance Steps.

Calvary, Reed, Westbrook, Hicks, and Dishong are seen together on the curb in front of the Walkway of the North Pergola, in Zapruder.

Next comes the Couch clip, taken moments after the last shot.

L&S are seen moving down Elm St. Extension quite a ways from the steps when the unidentified woman runs past them.

After James Darnell jumped off Press Car 3, he runs West towards the underpass.

As he enters the Pergola area his camera captures Calvary, Hicks and Reed, still together and now on the grass but still in front of the walkway.

At about this same time, one of the Press buses that was behind Press Car #3 has turned the corner onto Elm and is now passing by the North Pergola area. Cabluck is inside.

Cabluck photo #3 captures Calvary, Westbrook, and Dishong in just about the same location as the Darnell frame mentioned above.

These photos show that L&S have had additional time to move further West, either on the Elm St Extension or on the traffic island, while Calvary and the girls are still in front of the Pergola walkway. The distance between L&S and Calvary is shrinking.

At this point, we should insert one more structural consideration. There is a concrete barrier wall that extends from the end of the colonnade of the North Pergola quite a ways towards the point of the traffic island. It is not very high, but looks high enough that women in skirts and high heels would walk around it rather than try to scale it. So Calvary and the girls had two possible routes to get back from their position: Take the sidewalk East towards the tip of the traffic island and cross the Elm street extension to the steps, or walk up the grassy slope to the enclosure at the east end of the colonnade where there is an opening to the Elm St. Extension.

So where did the L&S encounter with Gloria Calvary occur? Unless L&S turned around and went back toward the tip of the traffic island, it is likely that the encounter happened very near the colonnade enclosure opening when Calvary was hurrying back to the TSBD.

There is another question I would like to know the answer to that is directly related to your question, Tommy.

What time did Truly call Aikens at the North Houston Warehouse to dig up Oswald's employment records?

During part of his testimony, Truly said he probably called Aikens 10-12 minutes after seeing LHO in the Lunch Room.

That would represent a pretty darn quick turn around from defending Oswald as an employee to notifying the police he was a possible suspect.

Pat,

From what you posted, it looks like the format will be "panel discussions". I did not see anything about taking questions from a public audience.

"This is the first time this elite group will publicly discuss their work,”

50 years later.

Hi Richard

“Bill feels that the traditional Lunch Room story accepted by both the WC and the Critical Community is strong enough to stand on its own to vindicate Lee Oswald.”

• Yes I get that part but obviously in official circles it doesn't otherwise we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Furthermore if it could or was ever likely to ‘stand on its own to vindicate Lee Oswald” we still wouldn’t be having this conversation.

“I think there is another option. We cannot exclude the possibility of Prayer Man/Oswald going up to the second floor after Truly and Baker had passed through the Lobby. And perhaps after Campbell had ascended the Lobby stairs to the 2nd floor (to vindicate the sighting by the storage closet). Getting Oswald from the 6th floor to the lunch room in time to see Baker is problematic. Getting Oswald from the front lobby to the 2nd floor is not”

• Whilst it is true that the second floor lunchroom encounter cannot be discounted it is also true that both lunchroom encounters cannot coexist. Therefore one or the other has to be in error or even an error that led to a fabrication?

“We know a group of employees went up to the 2nd floor offices right after the assassination. It is entirely possible LHO also decided to go. We have no evidence that precludes this possibility. Could he have made it all the way to the lunch room? Possibly.”

• There are many things that could have happened and some are indeed possible but by all accounts the Baker/Oswald (+Truly) encounter did not involve a group merely these three. So common sense dictates (just like common sense would dictate if someone is going to take the time to hide a gun they would also take the time pick up the shells) that the incident happened before a group ascended on the second floor otherwise there would have been many more accounts of the event.

“A simple sighting of Oswald on the 2nd floor would give strength to any lunch room story, whether it happened as advertised by the WC or was simply a last resort fabrication by the conspirators to get LHO as close to the NW stairs as possible.”

• And this is why I assume this encounter is important to the FBI/DPD but not for reasons of potentially exonerating Oswald but because they needed to put him closer to the sixth floor.

At the end of the day in my opinion there is one fundamental problem with the Baker sees Oswald on the second floor story and that is that Truly did not see him. Truly (according to reports) led this charge of the light brigade up the stairs but he didn’t see or hear anything that alerted his attention to the second floor lunchroom and the question is why?

Are we really to believe that he was fearlessly so far ahead of the gun toting Baker in search of the big bad guys that had just shot JFK that he didn’t see or hear anything when he passed the door thus allowing Oswald and opportunity to slip past the door but unfortunately for him just in time for Baker to see him? Then we have the body popping Oswald sitting, standing and leaning against the table, the counter and the coke machine.

I am sorry but it’s just too much of a pill to swallow. I think Sean is onto something when he says it likely happened on the first floor and the reason Truly didn’t see Oswald through any door before Baker was probably because he hadn’t caught up with Bakers 0-60 in 3.2 seconds dash to the front door vestibule yet. Maybe he should have worn his Nike’s?

Regards - Steve

Steve,

you appear to have inferred content in my post that was neither there, nor implied.

• At no point did I say a group of people entered the Lunch Room. That is an element you introduced.

• You also introduced "both lunchroom encounters" ?? I am aware of only one alleged encounter in the Lunch Room.

• Likewise your last two paragraphs also appear to be taking me to task for items that were not in my post. Were these directed at me?

Just to clarify, my original post had one main idea: Prayer Man/Oswald may have gone up to the second floor. If he did go up to the second floor, it is possible he may have been seen in the vicinity of the Lunch Room.

My replies in purple - RH

Hi Richard

Actually I am not taking you personally to task on any issue, so I am sorry if you perceived that from my response as it was not my intention. I was merely commenting that both encounters cannot coexist and it has to be one or the other.

I still do not know what you mean by "both encounters" ... ? RH

Your comments did however seem to imply there was another option but actually it appears to be just another way of describing a possible second floor encounter which is fine if your hold sway to that event happening. As for the group of people going up the stairs shortly after the assassination and LHO potentially doing the same, well of course this is possible, but again it seems to be just another explanation of how Oswald gets to the second floor lunchroom encounter?

I am not "endorsing" a 2nd floor encounter. I am saying that Oswald may have been seen on the 2nd floor (perhaps in the vicinity of the Lunch Room). There is a difference.

In piecing together Oswald's movements after the shooting, I don't think we should assume he never went to the 2nd floor. RH

Don’t get me wrong I understand you want to explore all possibilities and I respect that (after all I have read all 60+ pages) but Sean is trying to lay the foundation for the second floor lunchroom encounter never happening at all and ironically with every anomaly you guys raise with the second floor encounter you are indirectly helping him to lay it.

Exploring all the possibilities will hopefully lead to the most accurate explanation of what happened. As I have said several times in this thread, Sean is doing a remarkable job. For the most part, I believe he is spot on. There are however, a few points in his narrative where I think alternative possibilities exist. RH

I am no expert like some of you and I don’t pretend to be, but if the encounter did not take place on the second floor, then logically wouldn’t this explain why much of it doesn’t make sense? Bill makes a good point when he says “it would be physically impossible for Truly not to see Oswald if he was going through the lunchroom door” and I not only agree with this point but I believe it to be a perfect example that if you can’t make the second floor encounter work after fifty years then surely there is something fundamentally wrong with it? What if the second floor lunchroom encounter (SFLE) anomalies are in fact errors because there was no second floor lunchroom encounter?

As far as I know nearly every single piece of the JKF case has been argued a thousand times or more; but I have personally never heard anyone argue this point before.

The recent introduction of Prayer Man into the mix has stirred things up a bit. As I said in another thread, early researchers did an outstanding job, but they did not have this information on Prayer Man available to them. RH

Regards – Steve

PS: For what it’s worth Richard I think you have been doing a good job in this thread and have made some excellent points.

Thanks, Steve

Hi Richard

“Bill feels that the traditional Lunch Room story accepted by both the WC and the Critical Community is strong enough to stand on its own to vindicate Lee Oswald.”

• Yes I get that part but obviously in official circles it doesn't otherwise we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Furthermore if it could or was ever likely to ‘stand on its own to vindicate Lee Oswald” we still wouldn’t be having this conversation.

“I think there is another option. We cannot exclude the possibility of Prayer Man/Oswald going up to the second floor after Truly and Baker had passed through the Lobby. And perhaps after Campbell had ascended the Lobby stairs to the 2nd floor (to vindicate the sighting by the storage closet). Getting Oswald from the 6th floor to the lunch room in time to see Baker is problematic. Getting Oswald from the front lobby to the 2nd floor is not”

• Whilst it is true that the second floor lunchroom encounter cannot be discounted it is also true that both lunchroom encounters cannot coexist. Therefore one or the other has to be in error or even an error that led to a fabrication?

“We know a group of employees went up to the 2nd floor offices right after the assassination. It is entirely possible LHO also decided to go. We have no evidence that precludes this possibility. Could he have made it all the way to the lunch room? Possibly.”

• There are many things that could have happened and some are indeed possible but by all accounts the Baker/Oswald (+Truly) encounter did not involve a group merely these three. So common sense dictates (just like common sense would dictate if someone is going to take the time to hide a gun they would also take the time pick up the shells) that the incident happened before a group ascended on the second floor otherwise there would have been many more accounts of the event.

“A simple sighting of Oswald on the 2nd floor would give strength to any lunch room story, whether it happened as advertised by the WC or was simply a last resort fabrication by the conspirators to get LHO as close to the NW stairs as possible.”

• And this is why I assume this encounter is important to the FBI/DPD but not for reasons of potentially exonerating Oswald but because they needed to put him closer to the sixth floor.

At the end of the day in my opinion there is one fundamental problem with the Baker sees Oswald on the second floor story and that is that Truly did not see him. Truly (according to reports) led this charge of the light brigade up the stairs but he didn’t see or hear anything that alerted his attention to the second floor lunchroom and the question is why?

Are we really to believe that he was fearlessly so far ahead of the gun toting Baker in search of the big bad guys that had just shot JFK that he didn’t see or hear anything when he passed the door thus allowing Oswald and opportunity to slip past the door but unfortunately for him just in time for Baker to see him? Then we have the body popping Oswald sitting, standing and leaning against the table, the counter and the coke machine.

I am sorry but it’s just too much of a pill to swallow. I think Sean is onto something when he says it likely happened on the first floor and the reason Truly didn’t see Oswald through any door before Baker was probably because he hadn’t caught up with Bakers 0-60 in 3.2 seconds dash to the front door vestibule yet. Maybe he should have worn his Nike’s?

Regards - Steve

Steve,

you appear to have inferred content in my post that was neither there, nor implied.

• At no point did I say a group of people entered the Lunch Room. That is an element you introduced.

• You also introduced "both lunchroom encounters" ?? I am aware of only one alleged encounter in the Lunch Room.

• Likewise your last two paragraphs also appear to be taking me to task for items that were not in my post. Were these directed at me?

Just to clarify, my original post had one main idea: Prayer Man/Oswald may have gone up to the second floor. If he did go up to the second floor, it is possible he may have been seen in the vicinity of the Lunch Room.

Sean has created a persuasive analysis showing the evolution of the second floor lunch room story. And he has used that analysis to conclude that the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter is a fabrication.

Bill feels that the traditional Lunch Room story accepted by both the WC and the Critical Community is strong enough to stand on its own to vindicate Lee Oswald.

I think there is another option.

We cannot exclude the possibility of Prayer Man/Oswald going up to the second floor after Truly and Baker had passed through the Lobby. And perhaps after Campbell had ascended the Lobby stairs to the 2nd floor (to vindicate the sighting by the storage closet).

Getting Oswald from the 6th floor to the lunch room in time to see Baker is problematic. Getting Oswald from the front lobby to the 2nd floor is not.

We know a group of employees went up to the 2nd floor offices right after the assassination. It is entirely possible LHO also decided to go. We have no evidence that precludes this possibility. Could he have made it all the way to the lunch room? Possibly.

A simple sighting of Oswald on the 2nd floor would give strength to any lunch room story, whether it happened as advertised by the WC or was simply a last resort fabrication by the conspirators to get LHO as close to the NW stairs as possible.

As Sean is still trying to be convince us that the Second Floor lunchroom encounter never occurred and was the result of Baker and Truly being told what to say by the nameless screenwriter of the epic JFK assassination coverup, I call your attention to three facts - that the date on the handwritten statement that Sean refers to, with the crossed out "drinking a coke" is dated September 24, 1964, after the Warren Report was written and the day before it was publicly released. What the puck?

Why are they still concerned about this? Because they know its significance, and the fact that if it is reviewed in detail, as the SS did, it exonerates Oswald as being the Sixth Floor Assassin because if Baker saw Oswald through the window of the closed lunchroom door, and Truly, ahead of Baker didn't see him go through that door, he didn't enter the lunchroom through that door but through the other door that leads to the offices which he left by.

Truly testified that he didn't know Baker saw Oswald through the window of the closed door until sometime later, and heard it through the grapevine, just as Baker later heard that Oswald bought the now famous coke and Mrs. Reid saw him with it in his hand.

The clincher however, is when they called Truly back to the Post Office Annex to get him to answer one question under oath - does the lunchroom door with the window through which Baker saw Oswald - does that door have an automatic door closing mechanism - and the answer is yes - it does, securing the fact that the door was tightly closed when Baker saw Oswald on the other side of it - and Truly didn't see Baker go through it.

So Sean would have us believe that the master coverup artists - the author of the fictional second floor encounter - made all this up in order to hide an even more telling truth - that the Baker-Oswald-Truly encounter occurred at the front door.

Now its possible that Oswald is "Prayer Man" and he was like an invisible fly on the wall on the top steps of the front door - and maybe "Prayer Man" even held the door open for Baker, but if that's the case, then when Baker and Truly went to the rear of the building, Oswald - whether Prayer Man or not, he went up the front steps and entered the vestibule of the lunchroom from the south door - so Baker saw him through the window of the closed door - and while Truly continued up the steps to the third floor, Baker investigated - and confronted the man - Oswald.

Now if this story was concocted by anyone, why wouldn't they tell Truly that he had to see Oswald go through the door ahead of Baker? Why would they tell Baker that he saw Oswald through the window of the closed door - and why would they create a scenario that exonerates Oswald?

Hi Bill

I don't want to point out the obvious but Sean is trying to exonerate Oswald by trying to prove he is in fact ‘Prayer Man’.

The Oswald/Baker/Truly encounter on the second floor having a coke and singing ‘I do like to be besides the sea-side’ has done nothing to exonerate Oswald in fifty (50) years? So I really don’t get why you (if you believe Oswald is innocent) are so unwilling to entertain the ideas Sean is putting forward.

1. The Oswald/ Baker encounter (initially with or without Truly) happened on the first floor close to where Oswald/Prayer Man was already located (near the first floor steps/doors/vestibule?

The fact that Oswald/Prayer Man had a coke/didn’t have a coke/maybe had a brandy and coke doesn't change the fact that if Oswald is Prayer Man (who we can clearly see is standing on the steps at the time of the shooting) he can’t be the 6^th floor sniper?

1. The statements of Baker/Truly have evolved over time and been ironed out to make the whole encounter plausible and more favourable to a descending Oswald from the 6^th floor coupled with the lone nut persona of an Oswald calmly smooching around the second floor lunchroom drinking a coke and listening to Nat King Cole whilst everyone else in Dealey Plaza is in a state of turmoil and concern because the President has just been shot.

In my opinion the Oswald in the lunchroom looking like an Arctic cucumber distorts and negates the image of an Oswald doing a Usain Bolt down four flights of stairs to such an extent that the Oswald Bolt image (however improbable) is conveniently replaced with the cool callous ‘he must be one psycho SoB’ killer drinking a coke image and therefore counteracts any exoneration one may afford Oswald.

1. The chances that Baker (with or without super hero Truly) encountering Oswald twice (once on the first floor and once on the second floor) would appear to be (using a Don King quote) “slim and none and slim is out of town”.

Baker and truly mention one incident (even though there appear to be countless versions of it: sitting Oswald, standing Oswald, sleeping Oswald, Oswald dancing around with a brandy and coke, leaning Oswald, walking Oswald ... Oh I give up!) and herein lies the basis of Seans thesis.

If there was only one incident and it happened on the first floor and without any other/new proof that Prayer Man is someone else (and we are not talking about people who work somewhere else or even just flew into Dallas that very morning and decided “out of all the bars steps in all the towns you had to walk stand on this one”) by process of elimination Prayer Man becomes more likelier with every fallen Prayer Man candidate to be Oswald.

Now that’s what you would call exoneration.

Will Sean pull it off? I don’t know. Is he having a good go? You bet he is. However he still has a long ways to go and of course he has to avoid the 'Big Guns' who could start throwing a few more ‘credible’ Prayer Man alternatives in to the works at any time, but that aside the cog of Prayer Man being Oswald and the Marrion Bake encounter taking place on the first floor is slowly beginning to turn.

Regards - Steve

Hi Steve,

Addressing only the section of your last paragraph that I have bold faced, what other credible Prayer Man alternatives do you feel are out there?

My belief is we have already covered the alternatives in a thorough manner. And the outcome keeps turning out the same.

Big Gun or squirt gun, they all have to pass the same litmus test.

Sean,

Yes, I think you are right. Campbell is probably one of the encircled persons in the background this Wiegman frame.

Bjørn Gjerde

WeigmanLarge4c.jpg

If that is Campbell in the Red Circle, his description of "next to the curb on Elm street

adjacent to the street signal light" still works.

It may also help ID some of the other individuals. There is a group of 5 women on that side of Truly and Reid.

Campbell identifies Bonnie Richey, Carolyn Arnold and Jeraldean Reid as "standing at my elbow".

Bonnie Richey remembers Campbell, Carolyn Arnold, Virgie Baker, Betty Dragoo, and Judy Johnson in the group by the Curb.

Virgie Baker includes Bonnie Richey, Carolyn Arnold, Betty Dragoo, and Judy Johnson.

Combining all their recollections and the photos, it seems like there was a cluster of eight TSBD staff: Truly, Campbell and Reid were adjacent to or mingling with Virgie Baker, Bonnie Richey, Carolyn Arnold, Betty Dragoo and Judy Johnson.

I would like to see one other view of Campbell for comparison purposes, but I am not aware of any.

I don't know if Truly has been identified out in front of TSBD, but here are my suggestions in a frame from Wiegman and a frame from Darnell. In the Darnell film, 'Truly' is seen spinning around after Baker has run past him.

PDVD_671_TrulyCampbell_ed.jpg

DarnellBakerTrulyl.jpg

Bjørn Gjerde

Bjørn,

Not sure if anyone else has picked out these three together in Weigman, but your ID looks solid to me.

Here are snippets of Campbell's testimony with my Boldface added:

" ... Mr . Truly and I decided to view the motorcade

and took up a position next to the curb on Elm street

adjacent to the street signal light . I recall that. at the

time of the assassination of President John F . Kennedy, Texas

School Book Depository employees, Firs . Bonnie Richey, Mrs .

Carolyn Arnold and Mrs . Jeraldean Reid were standing at nay

elbow and likewise witnessed the assassination ."

Also Campbell's description as given to James Leavelle on 2/17/1964:

"I had forgotten about the parade. I startd to lunch with Mr. Truly.

When we got downstairs Mr. Truly asked if I wanted to wait and see the parade. We waited on the front steps until the parade turned off Main Street on to Houston Street. We then walked across Elm Street and stood on the curb near the parade as it turned from Houston Street down under the underpass. ..."

So you have solid corroboration from Campbell.

Jeraldean Reid told Mr. Belin she was wearing a jacket and scarf, and that she stood next to Truly and Campbell. That also corroborates your ID.

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page274.php

Do you see any woman in Darnell that matches Reid in your Wiegman frame?

Richard,

There is a similar-looking woman as Mrs. Reid nearly at the same spot in 3 Darnell frames:

Wiegman

Wiegman_PDVD_668_Reid.jpg

Darnell

Darnell_Image1~3_Reid.jpg

Bjørn Gjerde

Bjørn,

It all fits nicely and matches the testimony.

Truly and Campbell have moved back towards the steps with Truly in the lead and Campbell a few steps behind.

Truly has his encounter with Baker.

Mrs. Reid lingers at her position on the curb for a few moments, looking West toward the Underpass, then heads back to the Entrance and up to the 2nd floor.

Well done.

I don't know if Truly has been identified out in front of TSBD, but here are my suggestions in a frame from Wiegman and a frame from Darnell. In the Darnell film, 'Truly' is seen spinning around after Baker has run past him.

PDVD_671_TrulyCampbell_ed.jpg

DarnellBakerTrulyl.jpg

Bjørn Gjerde

Bjørn,

Not sure if anyone else has picked out these three together in Weigman, but your ID looks solid to me.

Here are snippets of Campbell's testimony with my Boldface added:

" ... Mr . Truly and I decided to view the motorcade

and took up a position next to the curb on Elm street

adjacent to the street signal light . I recall that. at the

time of the assassination of President John F . Kennedy, Texas

School Book Depository employees, Firs . Bonnie Richey, Mrs .

Carolyn Arnold and Mrs . Jeraldean Reid were standing at nay

elbow and likewise witnessed the assassination ."

Also Campbell's description as given to James Leavelle on 2/17/1964:

"I had forgotten about the parade. I startd to lunch with Mr. Truly.

When we got downstairs Mr. Truly asked if I wanted to wait and see the parade. We waited on the front steps until the parade turned off Main Street on to Houston Street. We then walked across Elm Street and stood on the curb near the parade as it turned from Houston Street down under the underpass. ..."

So you have solid corroboration from Campbell.

Jeraldean Reid told Mr. Belin she was wearing a jacket and scarf, and that she stood next to Truly and Campbell. That also corroborates your ID.

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page274.php

On the day of the assassination, Oswald's supervisor Bill Shelley gave an affidavit in which he mentioned the name of Gloria Calvery (click to enlarge):

The affidavit leaves no room for ambiguity.

Shelley "ran into" Gloria after leaving the front steps of the building and running "across the street to the corner of the park".

By the time of his and Billy Lovelady's April 7 WC testimony, however, the encounter with Gloria has been mysteriously transplanted to the front steps themselves.

Shelley:

Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute

...

Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Lovelady:

Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah.

Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street.

It couldn't be clearer.

The two men don't run into Gloria out across the street, she now runs up to them and becomes the reason why they leave the steps.

Most bizarrely of all, as we have seen earlier in this thread, both Shelley and Lovelady are now timestamping their departure from the front steps to some 3 minutes after the shooting. Even Ball is taken aback by the extravagance of their over-estimation.

And it in turn yields the wildly implausible timestamp of between 3 and 4 minutes for their looking back from the 'island' and seeing Baker and Truly about to enter the building.

**

It's clear that somebody at some point--somebody other than the WC folk--prevailed upon Shelley and Lovelady to delay their departure from the front steps by several minutes.

But why?

I've already suggested two likely reasons:

1. The police were initially admitting that the Baker-Oswald-Truly encounter happened on the front steps just after the assassination. In order to make this story work, the timeline had to be stretched to minutes rather than seconds: Oswald was 'stopped' on his way out of the building some 3-4 minutes after the shooting. He had time to make his descent from the sixth floor.

2. Billy Lovelady needed to be kept on the steps for a little while to help explain away any Oswaldian images that might show up in photos or films of the TSBD front entrance in the immediate assassination aftermath.

**

We can I think reasonably offer a third reason why the authorities, in the very early part of the 'investigation', would have wanted to distort the Shelley-Lovelady timeline:

Oswald was still alive.

The prospect of his going to trial was still a real one.

And he, as defendant, was going to make a very damaging claim from the dock:

I was out front with Bill Shelley.

How, if Oswald was the sixth-floor shooter, could he have known where exactly Bill Shelley was at the time of the assassination?

How was the prosecution to explain away his description of Shelley (and others) on the steps?

The intended solution was to shift Oswald's sighting of Shelley to several minutes after the assassination.

The front-entrance Baker incident having been transplanted up to the second-floor lunchroom, Oswald would now be said to have spotted Shelley at the front entrance on his (Oswald's) way out of the building.

To this end, Shelley needed to be kept on the front steps just long enough for this story to be plausible.

Three minutes would do it.

**

Shelley's name is not mentioned in the joint Bookhout-Hosty interrogation report, written while Oswald is still alive.

It does however make it into Bookhout's solo report, written after Oswald has been murdered:

"out with Bill Shelley in front" is glossed as a post-lunchroom incident event:

He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building.

All that now remains is for Shelley to be asked whether this had ever happened--and for Shelley to answer with an honest 'no'.

**

Thus the quadruple switcheroo:

i) Oswald, in the domino room, sees Jarman & Norman come in the back door of the first floor BECOMES Oswald claimed to have eaten his lunch with Jarman & Norman

ii) Oswald claims to have gone up to the second-floor lunchroom to buy a coke shortly before the assassination BECOMES Oswald claimed to have gone up for the coke just after the assassination

iii) Oswald claims to have been eating his lunch and/or drinking the coke out front when the officer came in to the first floor BECOMES Oswald claimed the officer came into the second-floor lunchroom just after he had bought his coke

iv) Oswald names Bill Shelley as one of the people he was out front with at the time of the assassination BECOMES Oswald named Bill Shelley as someone he spoke with out front several minutes after the assassination.

That lying b*stard, Oswald.

We have him (literally) dead to rights.

As you discussed Sean, Shelley and Lovelady waiting for 3 minutes on the steps before leaving is a No Go. S and L are gone before Baker gets to the steps. Pauline Sanders said it took Baker 10 seconds to get there after the last shot. Baker and the WC are within a few seconds of Sanders estimate. We also have Couch and Darnell.

My best estimate for the Calvary/Shelley/Lovelady encounter is within a minute of the last shot.

"12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, runs past "Prayer Man" and goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (probably Shelley and Lovelady according to Adams) 21"

I am still trying to understand how Lovelady and Shelley were able to proceed West on Elm St. to the concrete island, plus able to look back and see Truly/Baker entering the TSBD, yet be waiting in the vicinity of the elevators to be spotted first by Vicki Adams and then by Marrion Baker; especially if we read Shelley's testimony, in which he describes himself and Lovelady then going to the railroad yards before returning to the TSBD by the rear door. By her testimony, I think Miss Adams was on her way out of the building through the back door before Truly/Baker arrived at the elevators. If not, there is no way they could have not run into each other on the stairs.

Also, according to Miss Adams' testimony, she had returned from the railroad yard to the TSBD and stopped to listen to the two way radio on a police motorcycle parked in front of the TSBD. Presumably, this was Baker's motorcycle, further proving she had managed to get out of the TSBD before Truly and Baker had entered.

Robert,

If you go through the whole timeline, you will see there are various contradictions, along with bits of testimony that are suspicious.

This all goes back to the original intent of this timeline. From the inception, it was never intended to be a theory or a comprehensive explanation on my part. I did not exclude certain witness testimony just because I myself did not believe it.

The intent was to organize witness testimony (including testimony that I do not believe) around certain events that I considered to be significant regarding the events that unfolded in the TSBD just before and just after the assassination. There was some interpretation on my part, especially in assigning times or time ranges to events, but I do have a reasonable argument for assigning every one of those time ranges. I remain open to new information and suggestions.

I have gathered new information since this timeline was first presented. Prayer man is a perfect example, but there are other events and testimony that need to be added.

And I am in the process of updating.

It is important to remember when looking at this timeline that its value lies in being a guide or a frame of reference. So when I do finish the update, it is still going to contain contradictions and some testimony I consider to be suspect.

It is up to the user put the pieces together when trying to interpret what actually happened.

Add Edit: I should include a thank you to Robert for making his point, prompting me to do some necessary clarification.

Hello Richard

Please do not think I was trying to take you to task for errors in the timeline; on the contrary, your timeline makes it much easier to spot discrepancies between the various testimonies.

Keep up the good work!

Thank you Robert. I did not take your post that way.

It has been awhile since it was originally posted. I just felt it was time to clarify what I was trying to accomplish when I first put it together... a timeline that emphasized sightings of unidentified or suspicious individuals that were seen through the windows on the upper floors or near the Stairways, elevators and exits.

I noticed a small error on your timeline, Richard. When Dougherty descended from the fifth floor he purportedly spoke to Piper. The timeline says Givens.

Thanks, Pat. I made the correction on my working copy.