Richard Hocking

Adele Edisen and her bizarre experience fit somewhere into this discussion. After being drugged with LSD by Dr. Rivera, Adele was given Oswald's name, contact information, and a message to deliver to Oswald: "... Write down this name: Lee Harvey Oswald. Tell him to kill the chief" This was several months before the assassination. If Oswald himself was being programmed, the contact from Adele Edisen can be seen as an attempt to reinforce his programming. If Oswald was not being programmed, it is difficult to imagine what purpose it would serve to have an outsider contact Oswald and reveal that she had information that linked him to an upcoming assassination attempt.

Thanks for the Couch Film Stills. One of the problems with Identifying individuals is the lack of other photos of these people who said they were on the steps, for comparison. Outside of Lovelady, Oswald, and Frazier, I have not found much. Other TSBD employees who said they were on the steps at the time of the shooting (or seen there by someone else) include: Carl Jones, Madie Reese, Avery Davis, Roy Lewis, Mrs. R. Reid, Joe Molina, Sarah Stanton, Bill Shelley, Pauline Sanders, Otis Williams, Judy McCully, Ruth Dean. Out of this Other group (above) the persons of highest interest to me (from an identification standpoint) are Joe Molina, Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton

Many thanks to Pat Speer, James Fetzer. Thomas Graves and Bernice Moore for your replies and help. I am going to try and assimilate all this and see if it helps me to clear up some questions about the people at the front entrance.

Robin, Have A, B, C, D, E, or G ever been positively identified? Did the WC ever present any of this photographic evidence to witnesses and ask them to pick themselves out in the picture?

John, your post hits some of the top items I am interested in locating: Access locations to the basement from inside the building; access to the basement from the exterior; lines of sight from these points; and also the possibility of tunnel access from the basement. I found an old tunnel map that appears to show the Dallas Tunnel system Plan extending across Elm St, between Market & Houston Streets, probably a couple hundred feet from the basement of the TSBD. http://www.dallastun...l-Plan-1980.jpg I have also been through a number of photgraphs at the Mary Ferrell site, among others, but have not found anything that really helps. Thanks for your reply.

I have a few questions about the layout of the TSBD and I am hoping someone here may be able to help. Specifically, how many access points are there from the 1st floor to the TSBD basement? The diagrams I have leave some room for interpretation. I am also interested in finding out if there is a direct line-of-sight to the rear elevators from basement access point(s). Thanks in Advance!

Pat, I feel LHO being out in front at the time of the shooting is still an open issue, and certainly has not been disproved. Oswald being in the lunchroom earlier does not preclude his presence outside the entrance at the time of the motorcade. I am leaving the Altgen's photo discussion in the hands of others. My original point was that the timeline sightings of Oswald allow for the possibility that he may have been out front of the entrance at the time of the shooting. IMO, Fritz's interview note has a supportive statement when LHO says he was with Shelley (I gave several reasons why in my first post). The counterpoint suggested by several posters was that Bookhout's report showed that the Oswald/Shelley encounter occured later, (after LHO is reportedly seen on the 2nd floor by Baker & Truly). The implication was that the 2nd Bookhout report was more reliable than Fritz's notes. That is when I made the post about Bookhout's two reports, and the fact that Bookhout report of the 24th contradicts the Bookhout/Hosty report of the 23rd, regarding what Oswald reputedly said. The fact that Bookhout appears to have changed Oswald's answers is suspicious. Bookhout also introduced new elements in the 2nd report, regarding the Shelley timeline that look like they are there to revise the timing of Shelley and Lovelady being by the 1st floor elevator. Fritz's notes are suspect, but on a scale, I would rate their credibility above a 2nd generation FBI report that appears to have been retro-fitted with new and changed remarks attributed to Oswald.

For some reason, when I tried to use the link to the Bookhout report [several posts above this] I got a "this page not available" notice from the Mary Ferrell site. So I went to and found two reports that Bookhout participated in. The first one done on 11/23/63 is a combined report of Hosty and Bookhout: http://history-matte...eport_0318b.htm This first report, done the day after the assassination contains no reference to Oswald talking to Shelley. Oswald said he had lunch on the 1st floor at noon, went up to the 2nd floor to get a coke, and then after hearing what happened, he decided there would be no work performed that afternoon and went home. The second report is Bookhout's personal report done a day or two later, on the 24th or 25th (one date appears at the top, the other at the bottom). It should be noted that the notes of the interview have been destroyed and this is a report based on those notes.: http://history-matte...eport_0322a.htm This report, like Fritz's notes, has its share of problems. And it creates a whole new set of contradictions with other witness testimony: 1. This version states that After the encounter with Baker on the 2nd floor (12:31), Oswald went down to the 1st floor, "stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room". In the first report (the combined Hosty/Bookhout report above) Oswald is quoted as saying he had lunch at noon. So a day or two later, Bookhout has Oswald eating lunch after 12:30 instead of the earlier time of 12:00 in the first interview. Then the report continues (to the #2 below) 2. "He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman BILL [last name difficult to read.] and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of BILL [again the last name appears smudged or re-typed but you can basically make out enough to assume it is SHELLEY], he did not believe there was going to be any more work that day..." So if you give Oswald 5-10 minutes to eat lunch, another 5-10 minutes to stand around and talk with Shelley on the front steps, Oswald is now leaving the TSBD at 12:42 - 12:52. This version would also put Oswald on the entrance steps for several minutes right around the same time that Brennan and Euins are giving the Police their descriptions of the guy they saw in the SE corner window. And how about the WC estimated time of LHO leaving the TSBD (12:33)? 3. Shelley gave two versions of what he did after the shots were fired. A.) 11/22/63: Ran across the street; talked to Gloria Calvery; went back into the TSBD; called his wife; went to guard the back elevator; went upstairs with the Police to search. http://jfk.ci.dallas...28/2877-001.gif B.) WC testimony April 7, 1964, beginning here: http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page329.php Brief summary of related points [by me]: - Truly and an officer (Baker) went into the TSBD " 3 or 4 minutes" after Shelley had talked to Calvery. - Then Walked at a fast walk down to the railroad yards accompanied by Lovelady, stayed for about a minute and a half, and walked slowly back to the TSBD. [by this account, it is now 7 - 10 minutes after the shooting - RH] - re-entered the TSBD through a West entrance, and goes to guard the elevator. - Never saw Oswald after lunch Neither version of Shelley's testimony agrees with Bookhout's assertion that LHO said he and Shelley talked for 5 minutes on the steps. Both of Bookhout's accounts are contradicted by Vicky Adams, who saw Shelley and Lovelady at the 1st floor elevators as soon as she arrived on the first floor.. Baker also reported seeing 2 men by the NW elevators, less than 90 seconds after shots were fired. The report that includes Shelley contradicts the WC timeline, the Testimony of Baker, Truly, and Adams. It is every bit as suspect (if not more so) than Fritz's notes.

From a Timeline perspective, it was possible for Oswald to be on the front steps at the time of the shooting (as he told Fritz). Carolyn Arnold's interview with Anthony Summers (1978) places Oswald behind the double doors at the entrance as late as 12:25. The next sighting in the testimony is Baker and Truly in the 2nd floor lunch room at about 12:31:30. That leaves open the possibility that Oswald could have been on the steps at the time of the shooting and then gone inside after the shots were fired. On a side note, Oswald said he was on the steps with Shelley. That raises several interesting points: 1. If Oswald was not on the steps, how did he know where Shelley was? Oswald may have seen him there at 12:25, but that is no guarantee that Shelley would have stayed there. 2. Oswald is giving Fritz information that can be cross-checked with another witness. He is now relying on Shelley to provide verification for his alibi at the time of the shooting. Why would Oswald put himself in this position unless he thought Shelley would back him up? If, otoh, Oswald was making up a story, why not say he was behind everyone on the steps where no one noticed him? That would have eliminated the possibility of being contradicted by another witness.

Dave, Tommy, Bill, and all: Here is the updated TSBD timeline, with some additions and corrections, and references provided. I am still hoping to get more feedback and info. I have included questions and observations at the bottom of this post. Timeline: 12:00: Eddie Piper sees Oswald on the 1st floor of the TSBD. 1 12:00 – 12:10: (estimated time) Bonnie Ray Williams goes to 6th floor to eat lunch (sees and hears no one) (?) 2 12:12: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in hallway between front door and double doors a few minutes before 12:15 3 12:15– 12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in the1st floor Lunch Room 4 12:15: Arnold Rowland sees man with Rifle on 6th floor West Window (slender, dark hair, light shirt open at neck; other man was "colored" hanging out of East corner window) 5 12:15– 12:20: BRW takes elevator from 6th to 5th floor leaving partially eaten chicken behind (?) (sees and hears no one) 6 12:18: Howard Brennan sees man on 6th floor (no rifle visible at this time). (w/m, early30's, slender, 165-75, light clothing) 7 12:20- 12:25: Carolyn Arnold looks through glass door and sees Oswald inside on 1st floor near front of TSBD 8 12:26- 12:30: Ruby Henderson sees two men on 6th/ or Top floor. One dark (Mexican or Negro), and was wearing a white shirt. The other man was the taller and lighter of the two 9 12:28: Richard Carr sees heavy set man, what, glasses, tan sport coat in 2nd window from East corner, 6th floor. 10 12:29: Carolyn Walther sees two men w/ Rifle in 5th floor SE corner Window. (one man wearing brown suit coat) 11 12:29 Robert Edwards see w/m in 6th floor SE corner window, light colored shirt, short sleeve, open neck, possibly thin 12 12:29 Ronald Fischer sees Man in 5th floor "right corner" window, man was laying down,could only see head, light headed and open neck shirt, man was in his twenties (Fischer will later change floor to 6th and shots from 4 to 3.) 13 12:29 – 12:30: Geneva Hine notes the lights are out on her phone system as motorcade approaches TSBD. 14 12:30: Shots fired at JFK Limo. 12:30: Amos Euins sees Blackman with rifle in 6th floor SE corner window (later changed to white man) 15 12:30: Howard Brennan sees white man w Rifle in 6th floor SE corner window 16 12:30: Jack Dougherty is 10 feet west of West Elevator on 5th floor (within sight and sound of NW stairs); hears one shot. 17 12:30: Dillard Photo taken 3-15 seconds after shots shows Norman and Williams in SE 5th floor corner windows (and possibly Jarman inthe 4th window from the SE corner). They say they run to West Window after shots. 18 12:31: Vicky Adams and Sandra Styles descend the NW Rear stairs from the 4th floor to the 1st floor (see & hear no one). 19 12:31: Otis Williams runs up NW stairway to 4th floor (sees no one) goes back to his 2nd floor office (?) 20 12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (probably Shelley & Lovelady according to Adams) 21 12:31: Officer Barnett runs to guard back of TSBD (and Fire Escape on East Side). 22 12:31:30: Officer Baker and Roy Truly on 2nd floor by NW stairway; claim to see Oswald in Lunch room. 21 12:32: HSCA analysis show boxes in 6th floor window rearranged within 2 minutes of shooting. 22 12:32 – 12:33 Mrs. Reid returns to her 2nd floor office. Oswald calmly walks by her with coke in hand. 23 12:32 – 12:33 Deputy Roger Craig arrests a woman in her early thirties attempting to drive out of a private railyard parking lot. She was in a brown 1962 or 1963 Chevrolet . Craig turns her over to Deputy Sheriff Lummy Lewis. 24 12:32– 12:36: Carr sees the same man he previously saw in the window, walk away fromthe TSBD and get into a Rambler Station Wagon 10 12:32– 12:33: Officer Baker sees man on 3rd or 4th floor, w/m, 30 yrs old, 5'9, 165 lb, dark hair, light brown jacket. Manager vouches for this man and Baker lets him go. (Baker 11/22/63 affidavit) 25 12:33– 12:34: Officer Barnett moves from Back of TSBD to guard the Front entrance . 22 12:33 James Worrell see a man in a dark sportcoat and light colored pants dash out of the back of the TSBD about 3 minutes after shots fired at motorcade. Man was late 20's /early 30's, 5'8", dark brown hair. Ran South on Houston. 26 12:33– 12:34: Dougherty takes West Elevator down to 1st floor. (?) Talks to Givens. 27 12:33– 12:34: Baker and Truly on 4th or 5th floor, spot East Elevator, but West elevator is missing 28 12:33– 12:36: Officers Mooney, Vickery and Webster arrive at 1st floor rear elevator. Vickery & Webster take stairs up. Mooney takes elevator up to 2nd floor, where power goes off, he switches to the stairs and encounters " some men he believes to be officers" in plain clothes coming down the stairs. He passes these men and continues up. 29 12:33– 12:36: In his report of 11/23/63, Det. Harry Weatherford claims that he, Mooney, Boone, Walters, and Webster all went into the rear of the TSBD together and ascend the stairs. Weatherford goes out the window to search the roof of the loading dock, then comes back in and searches the first floor [sic] with an"unknown DPD Detective" (?) Then he goes to the top floor and eventually joins Mooney & Co. on the 6th floor 30 12:34– 12:35: Lillian Mooneyham sees man standing behind boxes on 6th floor of TSBD. 31 12:34– 12:36: Officer Mooney arrives for first quick survey (does not go to "sniper lair") of 6th flloor, sees no one, then goes up to 7th floor. 29 12:34: Inspector Sawyer enters Front of TSBD, enters Passenger elevator; runs into "this Man"; goes up to 4th floor 32 12:35: Baker and Truly are on roof of TSBD 33 12:36: Euins tells Officer Harkness shots came from 5th floor TSBD 34 12:36– 12:37: Harkness arrives at rear (North Loading dock) door of TSBD. Sees "some Secret Service Agents".35 12:37: Sawyer retrurns to 1st floor, goes out in front to set up Command Post. 32 12:40 – 12:45: Dep. Craig hears whistle. Sees light green Nash Rambler Station Wagon stop; sees w/m, 140-150, brown hair, in his 20's, white T shirt, runs down slope and gets inside. The Driver of the vehicle was husky latin, dark wavy hair, tan windbreaker jacket. Craig runs over to report this to the Command Post in front of the TSBD entrance and encounters a SS Agent ("40 years old, sandy-haired with a distinct cleft in his chin. He was well-dressed in a gray business suit") 24 12:45: Description of suspect broadcast by DPD: w/m, 30, 5'10, 165, 30-30 (Winchester Rifle on Channel 2) 36 12:50 – 12:55: SSAForest Sorrels returns from Parkland Hospital to the rear entrance of the TSBD and enters the building with no one checking his ID, the first genuine SS Agent to arrive on the scene. 37 12:58: Captain Fritz arrives at front entrance of TSBD 38 12:58: Mooney Leans out window and Signals Fritz, who is standing in front of TSBD (After leaving the 7th floor,Mooney, Vickery, and Webster went down to 6th floor, where Mooney discovered SE corner window "sniper lair", empty shells, chicken remnants and soda.. 39 1:22: Boone and Weitzman discover Rifle they idenitfy as a 7.65 Mauser, concealed between boxes on the 6th floor 40 References: 1. Eddie Piper Dallas Sheriff Affidavit of 11/23/63; also WC Testimony 2. Bonnie Ray Williams WC testimony , Vol. III, pp 169-173 (left 6th floor at 12:20; was up there for 15 minutes) 3. CD5:41 Archives from Mary Ferrell Timeline 4. Anthony Summers 1978 interview with Carolyn Arnold/ Jim Marrs, Crossfire p. 49 5. Arnold Rowland, interviewed by Arlen Specter and Gerald Ford before the Warren Commission (10th March, 1964) 6. Bonnie Ray Williams WC testimony , Vol.III – Page 173, March 24, 1964; http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page173.php 7. Howard Brennan Dallas Sheriff statement: November 22, 1963. (Description). Howard Brennan FBI Report: January 7,1964. (Gave 12:18 as time of sighting) 8. Arnold's 26 Nov 1963 statement is published by Weisberg (1967) p. 210, with discussion on pp. 74-75.The original handwritten statement says 12:25. When retyped by the FBI the time was changed to 12:15 (Guth & Wrone 1980, p. xxxii).
 This is cited by Don Thomas in Rewriting History:Bugliosi Parses the Testimony, http://www.maryferre...s_the_Testimony 9. Ruby Henderson FBI statement of 12/6/63. Saw men on 6th floor after ambulance had departed. 10. Richard Randolph Carr: http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf, p. 8 11. http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf 12. Robert Edwards WC Testimony on April 9. 1964, Vol VI, pp. 203- http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page203.php 13. Ronald Fischer Dallas Sheriff's Statement: November 22, 1963. 19H475; FBI Report: December 2,1963. CD205 14. Geneva Hines WC Testimony, 4/7/64 http://www.aarclibra...df/WH6_Hine.pdf 15. James Underwood WC Deposition,4/1/64, Vol. VI, p. 170, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page168.php 16. Howard Brennan Sheriff Statement: http://jfk.ci.dallas...28/2823-001.gif 17. Jack Daugherty WC testimony: http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page380.php 18. Dillard photo. Regarding Jarman: Mike Regan says Gary Mack told him he examined the negatives which confirmed Jarman in the 4th window from the SE Corner. http://educationforu...opic=4624&st=45 post #50. 19. Vicky Adams Warren Commission Testimony, 4/7/64 20. The Elevator Escape Theory by Richard Gilbride, http://www.reopenken...t/gilbride.html,pp 21-22 21. Officer Baker WC Testimony, Vol. III pp.247-263 22. from Comparison of Dillard and Powell photos, 6HSCA 110-115 23. Mrs. Robert Reid WC Testimony, http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page274.php 24. Roger Craig, When They Kill A President, 1, http://www.ratical.o.../JFK/WTKaP.html 25. (Officer Baker Affidavit), http://jfk.ci.dallas...04/0426-001.gif 26. James Worrell WC Testimony, Vol. II, p. 196, http://www.jfk-assas...ol2/page196.php 27. Jack Dougherty WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p 380, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page380.php 28. Baker WC Testimony, Vol. III, pp. 258-259 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page258.php 29. Luke Mooney WC Testimony, Vol. III, pp. 283-284 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page283.php 30. Harry Weatherford, Dallas Sheriff Supplementary Investigation Report, http://mcadams.posc....ny/weatherf.htm 31. Lillian Mooneyham, FBI Report: January 10, 1964, 24H531 32. Ins. Sawyer WC Testimony, Vol VI, pp 318-320, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page319.php 33. Baker WC Testimony Vol. III, p 262 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page262.php (Baker took total of 15 minutes, spent about 10 minutes on roof) 34. Harkness WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p. 310 http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page310.php 35. Harkness WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p. 312, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page312.php 36. DPD Description of Suspect broadcast; Mary Ferrell Chronologies Vol 4 Nov 22 1963 pg 172, Tape #1 gives 12:37-12:45; JFK Assassination Chronology 22 Nov 1963 pg 49 gives 12:45 as time; http://www.terra.es/...rios/cintas.htmgives 12:45 37. SSA Forest Sorrels, Vol VII, p. 347-348,WC testimony, http://www.jfk-assas...ol7/page347.php 38. Captain Fritz, WC Testimony, Vol IV, p.204 http://www.jfk-assas...ol4/page204.php 39. Mooney signals Fritz, http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page284.php, Fritz arrived and was in frontof TSBD at 12:58, then went inside according to his WC testimony, 37 40. Dep. Eugene Boone, WC testimony, Vol 6, pp 204-205. http://www.jfk-assas...ol4/page205.php Other Related Reading: "The Elevator Escape Theory" by Richard Gilbride, http://www.reopenken...t/gilbride.html Greg Parker Website; http://reopenkennedy...-cop-encounters "The Man in the Dark Sports Coat" by William Weston http://www.manuscrip...PQ/sports~1.htm Duke Lane thread on Lancer forum : http://www.jfklancer...g_id=82512 Don Thomas , "Rewriting History: Bugliosi Parses the Testimony" http://www.maryferre...s_the_Testimony "Dealey Plaza Conspiracy Witnesses, HSCA Staff Report", http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf "A Comprehensive Review of Reclaiming History", by James DiEugenio Questions and observations: 1. Electrical Power Events: Geneva Hine's phone system lights go off, just before12:30. Was this a power outage or just no calls at that time?; Truly and Baker are unable to get an elevator down from the 5th floor less than a minute after the shots. Sandra Styles said she and Vicky Adams tried thepassenger elevator in front, but when it did not work, they went to the backstairs. The West elevator has power when Mooney gets on the 1st floor,then loses power on the 2nd floor, 12:33-12:36. Who cut power to elevator at that precise moment? Select Elevator circuits and possiblyt he phone system circuit were reported off, but I have seen no report of all power to the TSBD being off, which would have happened if the Main Circuit breaker was thrown. The 3 elevators would have been on their own dedicated circuits, as would the phone system. The evidence supports the possibility that selected circuits may have been turned on/off at various times just before and after 12:30. This rules out random fuse failure (or circuit breakers being tripped) and supports the notion of manipulation of the power circuits. Was the Fuse/Breaker box located in the basement of the TSBD? 2. Why is there no exchange of information with Mooney when he is passing the men he believes might be DPD officers on the stairs? They would have been the very first respondents on the scene. If you were Mooney, wouldn't you at least ask them a few questions … like Had they seen a man with a rifle roaming around on an upper floor? And why were they were leaving the scene so soon? 3. There are three general descriptions of unknown men seen on the upper floors, in some cases with rifles, just before and at the time of the shooting: First man: a younger white man who was slender. Second man: another white man who may have been older, heavier, and wearing a tan jacket or coat and possibly glasses. Third man: a dark complected man who may have been Latin/Mexican/Negro. 4. Secret Service men were reported on the back entrance dock and at the front entrance within minutes of the shots, and well before Forrest Sorrels was the first actual SS agent to return to Dealey Plaza/ TSBD. 5. Unidentified men who were thought to be police officers: A. "Some" plain clothes officers seen by Officer Mooney as he ascends the NW stairs from the 2nd floor B. Weatherford searches the 1st floor with an unknown DPD detective 6. Unidentified Civilians: A. Man seen in front elevator by Sawyer B. Two men seen by rear elevator seen by Baker (may be Lovelady and Shelley) 7. Individuals seen leaving the scene: A. Man seen by Worrel B. Man seen by Carr C. Man seen by Craig D. Woman in car arrested by Craig. (edited for spacing and syntax)

That is a reasonable point Andric. I would add though, that if Dougherty were involved in the plot, it may have been a very limited role. Something like just holding the elevators on the 5th floor for a period of time. He may not have known or been required to know what else was happening in the grand scheme of things. With his ability to confound conversation, I doubt that there would have been much need to coach Jack too extensively. Just my .02.

Bill Shelley Billy Lovelady Jack Dougherty Danny Arce Charles Givens and by some accounts, Bonnie Ray Williams and/or Hank Norman may have helped out. According to the statements of all the employees, the only account of a stranger or unknown person in the TSBD on the morning of 11/22/63 was an 80 year old man that talked to Danny Arce. anybody recognise the cop?. The civilian reminds me of Marlon Perkins.

Daugherty is a mystery man. His WC testimony is comical. Is it genuine? The slapsick comedy is a great tactic to deflect attention in a different direction. It was done in the Garrison/Shaw trial with the guy who said he fingerprinted his daughter when she came home to make sure it was her. It popped up again in the HSCA hearings when Witt brought in his umbrella, and it inverted when it was opened up. BTW, I have been working on the Timeline and hope to have an update soon.

Lets say that he looked like an 80 year old man. He asked Arce where the restroom was, and then went in the building to find it. Must have been in pretty good shape to walk up the front stairs! The "Geezer Bandit" bank robber here in San Diego looks like an old man, but was caught by a surveillance camera running like an Olympic Champ across the parking lot when a dye pack exploded on him. LOL He probably wears a special mask to make him look a lot older than he is. The "old man" who talked with Danny Arce was probably E. Howard Hunt in one of his many disguises. Or Dave Phillips. He had an acting background, you know. --Tommy With you on this. I should put quotes around "80 year old man" in the future.

Bill Shelley Billy Lovelady Jack Dougherty Danny Arce Charles Givens and by some accounts, Bonnie Ray Williams and/or Hank Norman may have helped out. According to the statements of all the employees, the only account of a stranger or unknown person in the TSBD on the morning of 11/22/63 was an 80 year old man that talked to Danny Arce.

Good catch David. I will have to check my notes and see where and when I got the notion that Mooney met two officers coming down.

bump Tommy, Mooney said he encountered Two men coming down the stairs. Regarding the Black guy guarding the rear gate, it would have been great if someone would have asked him his name or described him. I hope to devote some time on this in the next few days.

David, Checked out your spreadsheet. Looks good. We are on the same page regarding time-stamping and locating individuals in and around the TSBD just before and just after shots were fired.

David and Tommy, Will be updating the Timeline as I go through your suggestions and additions. Keep it coming. I have also found some additional interesting sources. I am trying to get an updated timeline as my available time permits. Next version will hopefully have references attached. David: it sounds like your Spreadsheet project is very close to what we are looking at on the timeline. Bill: You said, "It would be totally cool if someone would come up with a program that allows us to merge all of these chronologies together, though keeping their integrity, possibly by using a different color or font for each one." That would be an incredible tool, and it is exactly what digital databases are designed to do. I know that everything involved in this Timeline (for example) has been researched and discussed by many others over the years. There are volumes of data out there. The task would be to funnel all the good stuff into a central repository. One of the problems is that so much of the resource data is in PDF format. That adds an additional layer of complexity in translating the pdf data into a text format that would importable into a database. Lots of manual work if you know of a dedicated group of people with sufficient time available.

David, ( and Tommy, Bill and anyone else who is interested) I have put together a rough draft of a timeline of persons of interest in the TSBD just before and after the shots were fired. I am posting it here in the hopes of getting additional info from members who may be able to fill in some of the blanks, or make corrections. Ideally, I would like to be able to list and time-stamp witness sightings of unidentified (or known) persons who may have been involved in the plot. Rough draft below. (*Note: I am aware of some of the conflicting statements) Timeline: 12:00: Eddie Piper sees Oswald on the 1st floor of the TSBD. 12:05 –12:10: Bonnie Ray Williams goes to 6th floor to eat lunch (sees and hears no one) (?)(2) 12:12: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in hallway between front door and double doors a few minutes before 12:15 (?) 12:15– 12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in the 1st floor Lunch Room 12:15: Arnold Rowland sees man with Rifle on 6th floor (slender, dark hair, light shirt open at neck; other man was dark) 12:15– 12:20: BRW takes elevator from 6th to 5th floor leaving partially eaten chicken behind (?) (sees and hears no one) 12:18: Howard Brennan sees man on 6th floor with Rifle. (w/m, early 30's, slender, 165-75,light clothing) 12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald on 1st floor near front of TSBD (? conflict w 12:12 sighting) 12:26- 12:30: Ruby Henderson sees two men on 6th/ or Top floor. One dark (Mexican or Negro), and was wearing a white shirt. The other man was the taller and lighter of the two 12:28: Richard Carr sees heavy set man, w hat, glasses, tan sport coat in 2ndwindow from East corner, 7th floor. (1) 12:29: Carolyn Walther sees two men w/ Rifle in 5th floor East corner Window. (one man wearing brown suit coat) 12:29 Fischer and Edwards see w/m in 6th floor east corner window 12:30: Shots fired at JFK Limo. 12:30 Amos Euins sees Black man with rifle in 6th floor corner window (later changed to white man) 12:30 Brennan sees white man w Rifle in 6th floor corner window 12:30: Jack Dougherty is 10 feet from West Elevator on 5th floor (within sight and sound of NW stairs); hears shot. 12:30: Dillard Picture shows Jarman, Norman and Williams in 5th floor windows. They say they run to West Window after shots. 12:31: Vicky Adams and Sandra Styles descend the NW Rear stairs from the 4th floor to the 1st floor (see & hear no one). 12:31: Otis Williams runs up NW stairway to 4th floor (sees no one) goes back to his 2nd floor office (?) (4) 12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (accomplices? may be Shelley & Lovelady according to Adams) 12:31: Officer Barnett runs to guard back of TSBD (and Fire Escape on East Side). 12:31:30: Officer Baker and Roy Truly on 2nd floor by NW stairway; claim to see Oswald in Lunch room. (WC testimony) 12:32: HSCA analysis show boxes in 6th floor window rearranged within 2 minutes of shooting. 12:32 – 12:33 Mrs. Reid returns to her 2nd floor office. Oswald calmly walks by her with coke in hand. 12:32– 12:36: Carr sees the same man he previously saw in the window, walk away from the TSBD and get into a Rambler Station Wagon 12:32– 12:33: Officer Baker sees man on 3rd or 4th floor, w/m, 30 yrs old, 5'9, 165 lb, dark hair, light brown jacket. Manager vouches for this man and Baker lets him go. (Baker 11/22/63 affidavit) 12:33: Officer Barnett moves from Back to guard Front entrance of TSBD 12:33 James Worrell see a man in a dark sportcoat and light colored pants dash out of the back of the TSBD about 3 minutes after shots fired at motorcade. Man was late 20's /early 30's, 5'8", dark brown hair. Ran South on Houston. 12:33– 12:34: Dougherty takes West Elevator down to 1st floor. (?) Talks to Givens. 12:33– 12:34: Baker and Truly on 5thfloor, spot East Elevator, but West elevator is missing 12:33– 12:36: Officers Mooney, Vickery and Webster arrive at 1st floor rear elevator. Vickery & Webster take stairs up. Mooney takes elevator up to 2nd floor, where power goes off, he switches to the stairs and encounters "two men he believes to be officers" in plain clothes coming down the stairs. He passes these men and continues up. 12:33– 12:36: In his report of 11/23/63, Det. Harry Weatherford claims that he, Mooney, Boone, Walters, and Webster all went into the rear ofthe TSBD together and ascend the stairs. Weatherford goes out the window to search the roof of the loading dock, then comes back in and searches the first floor [sic] with an "unknown DPD Detective"(?) Then he goes to the top floor and eventually joins Mooney & Co. on the 6th floor 12:34– 12:35: Lillian Mooneyham sees man standing behind boxes on 6th floor of TSBD. 12:34– 12:36: Officer Mooney arrives for first quick survey (does not go to "sniper lair") of 6th floor, sees no one, then goes up to 7th floor. 12:34: Sawyer enters Front of TSBD, enters Passenger elevator; runs into "this Man"; goes up to 4thfloor* 12:35: Baker and Truly are on roof of TSBD 12:35: Harkness arrives at rear (North Loading dock) door of TSBD. Sees "SS Agents". 12:36: Euins tells Officer Harkness shots came from 5th floor TSBD 12:37: Sawyer returns to 1st floor, goes out in front to set up Command Post. Undetermined time: Mooney, Vickery, and Webster leave 7th floor, go down to 6th floor; Mooney discovers SE window box configuration, empty shells, chicken bones and soda. Shortly before 1:00 (?), Mooney Leans out window and Signals Fritz. 12:43-12:45: Description of suspect broadcast by DPD: w/m, 30, 5'10, 165, 30-30 Winchester Rifle 12:44: Roger Craig hears whistle. Sees Nash Rambler Station Wagon stop; sees w/m, 140-150, brown hair, in his 20's, white T shirt runs down slope and gets inside. Craig runs over to the Command Post in front of the TSBD entrance and encounters a SS Agent ("40 years old, sandy-haired with a distinct cleft in his chin. He was well-dressed in a gray business suit") Undetermined time: Fritz arrives at TSBD (sometime before 1:00 ?) 1:22: Boone and Weitzman discover Rifle between boxes

Regarding the timeline of finding of the shells by the SE 6th floor window: We know Baker was the first officer to get to the 6th floor, but he only gives it a quick look to see if there are any people there. Mooney must have arrived on the 6th floor very soon after Baker left. I would estimate roughly 5-6 minutes after the last shot ( ran from Houston and Main to the Parking area ... 30 seconds? Spent " a couple of minutes there" ... 2 minutes? Received word to go to the TSBD and ran over there ... another 30 seconds?). Throw in a minute or two to take the elevator to the 2nd floor and then the stairs up (passing the two plain clothes men he assumes are police officers, between the 2nd and 3rd floors) to the 6th floor ... Mooney should be there for his first look at approximately 12:35 to 12:37. He criss-crosses the 6th floor and decides there is no one there, and then goes to the seventh floor. He does not say how much time he spends on the 7th floor, which includes crawling into a dark cubby hole. At this point, he decides to go back down to the 6th floor and discovers the empty shells, chicken, soda and box configuration by the SE Window. Mooney's report on 11/23/63 states, "... Inside this cubby hole affair was three more boxes so arranged as to provide what appeared to be a rest for a rifle On one of these cartons was a half-eaten piece of chicken." The chicken was in the Snipers Lair on one of the boxes used as a prop for the rifle. His WC testimony 4 months later (3/25/64): ... Senator Cooper. How far was the chicken, the piece of chicken you saw, and the paper bag from the boxes near the window, and particularly the box that had the crease in it? Mr. Mooney. I would say they might have been 5 feet or something like that. He wouldn't have had to leave the location. He could just maybe take one step and lay it over there, if he was the one that put it there. Senator Cooper. You mean if someone bad been standing near the box with the crease in it? Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. The location of the chicken moves 5' to the West. Apparently, the WC did not want the sniper leaving greasy chicken fingerprints on the rifle. It is unfortunate that neither Harkness or Mooney gives a description of the men on the stairs or the SS guys by the back door. Had they done so, we would be able to compare with the several witness descriptions of the men on the 6th floor seen by Brennan, Carr, Crawford, Edwards, Euins, Fischer, Henderson and Rowland. Not to mention individuals seen climbing into station wagons. Bonnie Ray Williams testified he was on the 6th floor until 12:15-12:20, certainly makes him a possibility for the black man seen by Euins and Rowland, although Rowland describes an older looking man. The half-eaten chicken, the lunch remnants left on the boxes, give the impression that William's lunch was prematurely ended when the men on the 6th floor arrived.

... Mr. HARKNESS - Several officers at the area, and it was a lot of people around. I don't know whether they were going in or out or not. I couldn't say that. Mr. BELIN - Then you went around to the back of the building? Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN - Was anyone around in the back when you got there? Mr. HARKNESS - There were some Secret Service agents there. I didn't get them identified. They told me they were Secret Service. Mr. BELIN - Then did you say around the back of the building? Mr. HARKNESS - Yes; I stayed at the back until the squad got there. ... DJ Seems like Luke Mooney's testimony needs to be fitted in here. One of the first members of the Dallas Police to enter the TSBD (after Baker) was Luke Mooney. Mooney tried to use the West Elevator at the back of the building. When it wouldn't work, He went over to the stairs and started to go up. On the way up, he encountered two men in plain clothes, who he assumed were Police. His WC testimony below (excerpt): ... Mr. MOONEY. I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the staircase. Mr. BALL. Did it work with a push button? Mr. MOONEY. It was a push button affair the best I can remember. I got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on. Mr. BALL. You were alone? Mr. MOONEY. I was alone at that time. ... [end quote of WC testimony] Ball never asks Mooney to ID these two men, or why Mooney felt they were deputy sheriffs. The phrase in his testimony " I believe they were deputy sheriffs" falls short of definitively identifying individuals that he knew beyond doubt were deputy sheriffs. Why did Mooney not ask these men for ID? To my knowledge, these men have never given testimony or been identified. Given the timing of the sightings, it seems plausible that the two men Mooney saw coming down the stairs may have been the same "Secret Service" men that Harkness saw at the back of the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Bill, thanks for posting the link to OPEN. I agree with you that this has implications for sites like the JFK Assassination Forum. My first take on offering OPEN as an alternative to SOPA is that it may be easier to eat the elephant one bite at a time, and that offering "more moderate" legislation, will make the lawmakers look more reasonable in their attempt to garner support. I am sure there are "piracy" issues that need to be addressed, but this is also a convenient excuse for TPTB to begin reining in Free Speech on the Web. That is their real objective. The U.S. Government just tossed Habeas Corpus down the drain in favor of Indefinite Detention, with barely a murmur from the controlled MSM. Now they have turned their sights on a largely unregulated area of free speech - the internet. Is the timing of these actions coincidental? I suggest that all forum members consider contacting the appropriate Congressmen regarding the JFK Act oversight hearings, SOPA, and OPEN.

Richard, Let's not forget the Harper Fragment. It traces back, through JFK's position at Z-313, to a window on the far west end of the TSBD. I believe some witnesses reported seen a man with a rifle in this window a short time before the assassination. And isn't there a man's face in that window in a Powell or Dillard photo taken right after the hit? --Tommy Agree Tommy. Harper's Fragment and Dillard photo are two pieces of physical evidence that would support the possibility of a shot from the West End of the TSBD. JBC's wounds could also be a result of shot(s) from the same vicinity. One other thing, something that ties into a recent, and very contentious thread in this forum ... consider the possibility that a shooter was firing from a Western-facing window in the TSBD: This would offer a much more concealed location, not visible to the majority of the crowd in Dealey Plaza, which was concentrated primarily near Houston Street and the intersection of Houston and Elm. The main drawback for a shooter in this western location would be the inability to see the target until the Limo was actually in the Kill Zone. One possible solution would be an accomplice on the street that could signal the shooter when the Limo was just about to enter the Kill Zone. You know, Somebody who could give a hand signal, or open an umbrella and pump it in the air, or something similar. I am sure you have seen other TUM discussions, where the argument has been made that TUM was unnecessary because of a spotter next to the shooter. From a triangulation standpoint, The TSBD is a natural location for one of the shooters. I am just very suspicious of the confusing testimony surrounding the "sniper's lair" in the East 6th floor location.

Tom (and John), I had not seen the Wheaton interview before. Very interesting. Thanks for posting it.