Martin Blank

here you go:

When his car trunk was examined (at his suggestion), authorities found a number of most interesting items. Unfortunately, the majority of these were never formally entered into the record and most were not returned to Nagell after his conviction for bank robbery was eventually overturned.

The items that are available are amazingly similar to items also in the possession of Lee Oswald. They include:

(1) One miniature Minolta camera and developing kit.

(2) Fair Play for Cuba leaflets.

(3) The P.O. Box for the Fair Play for Cuba committee in New Orleans, Louisiana. The committee which had only one member. Lee Oswald.

(4) Cuban and Communist literature including the Case against Cuba by Corless Lament, one of the documents also being used in New Orleans by Lee Oswald.

(5) A notebook containing the unlisted telephone number of the Cuban embassy, the same number as found in Oswald's notebook.

(6) The notebook also contained names of individuals who would much later be identified as CIA personnel from its Los Angles office. (The names were submitted by the FBI to the CIA in October '63 and eventually verified by the CIA as being names of actual employees)

In addition, the trial files for Richard Nagell also contain an identification card, the card being a military ID with Nagell's photo and the name and signature of Lee H. Oswald.

I do think, though, that the Tippit murder was premeditated, not so much by the DPD per se as by Westbrook, Croy and .... uh .... a guy who looked a bit like the "Lee Harvey Oswald" we all think we know, but was wearing a white t-shirt and dark pants in the early afternoon of 11/22/63. I think Westbrook brought the infamous wallet to 10th & Patton and introduced it into evidence there. I think he got the Eisenhower jacket and a .38 revolver from a certain person in a white t-shirt who , again, looked a little like the LHO we all think we know.

Jim,

I can see reasons for premeditation, or execution of a backup plan. "LHO" dropping his wallet at the crime scene is too 'over the top' to have been planned. Especially when another wallet was "found on LHO" when he was arrested. You'd think the original plan would have been coordinated to a high degree.

Was there a reason for killing JDT other than making LHO a "cop-killer?"

Tom

Tom,

I agree that dropping a wallet seems over the top for a plot to frame LHO. But how else can the wallet be explained? Are you saying that maybe it was part of a seat-of-the-pants backup operation?

If so, I wonder why the perps happened to have the wallet in their possession. (Maybe they had a whole war chest full of LHO-related props?)

check nagell's trunk

Good point, Martin.

Nagell had a copy of Oswald's military ID card. Did he have anything else Oswald related?

off the top of my head i think he had a piece of paper that appeared to be someone practicing LHO's signature on it; have to go back and look

yeah, jim, you just want it to be a CIA job because that's what the facts say

I do think, though, that the Tippit murder was premeditated, not so much by the DPD per se as by Westbrook, Croy and .... uh .... a guy who looked a bit like the "Lee Harvey Oswald" we all think we know, but was wearing a white t-shirt and dark pants in the early afternoon of 11/22/63. I think Westbrook brought the infamous wallet to 10th & Patton and introduced it into evidence there. I think he got the Eisenhower jacket and a .38 revolver from a certain person in a white t-shirt who , again, looked a little like the LHO we all think we know.

Jim,

I can see reasons for premeditation, or execution of a backup plan. "LHO" dropping his wallet at the crime scene is too 'over the top' to have been planned. Especially when another wallet was "found on LHO" when he was arrested. You'd think the original plan would have been coordinated to a high degree.

Was there a reason for killing JDT other than making LHO a "cop-killer?"

Tom

Tom,

I agree that dropping a wallet seems over the top for a plot to frame LHO. But how else can the wallet be explained? Are you saying that maybe it was part of a seat-of-the-pants backup operation?

If so, I wonder why the perps happened to have the wallet in their possession. (Maybe they had a whole war chest full of LHO-related props?)

check nagell's trunk

the impartial reader can see a lot.

It should not be required for me to write a thesis about his book, or to defend it with logical categories.

sorry but it is. if you make a point you should be able to back it up with facts, dat, etc. what you seek is for your words to be accepted at face value. nope ain't the way it works. but for you logic never enters the equation.

In fact, this is an informal FORUM dedicated to discussions about the JFK assassination.

according to merriam-webster what you are referring to are not discussions, i.e, there has to be give and take. here's the definition:

consideration of a question in open and usually informal debate

I'm extolling Jeff Caufield's book as second to none in this discussion -- and your response amounts to Ad Hominem attacks about my style of writing.

here's what ad hominem means: (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining. what I see being made are not ad hominem attacks against you but reasoned and logical arguments against your methodology and not your style.

​as barretta used to say "and that's the name of that tune."

for me, the difference between jim and paul has always boiled down to jim believing in and using verifiable evidence and testimony, while paul seems to get his info from voices in the wind and has the idea that things are true merely because he thinks them to be so.

what was west brook's background pre-assassination in addition to DPD

thanks

The CIA is one fine American institution. I don't why in the world the Founding Fathers didn't include it in the Constitution as our fourth branch of government. Thank God for Harry Truman.

fourth branch? they would have done away with the other three

Only hours after Kennedy was shot, CIA agent Gary Underhill left Washington, D.C., and drove to the home of friends on Long Island, N.Y. Underhill says he fears for his life and he must leave the country.

“This country is too dangerous for me. I've got to get on a boat. Oswald is a patsy. They set him up. It's too much. The bastards have done something outrageous. They've killed the president! I've been listening and hearing things. I couldn't believe they'd get away with it, but they did. They've gone mad! They're a bunch of drug runners and gun runners – a real violence group. (my emphasis) I know who they are. That's the problem. They know I know. That's why I'm here.”

The friends offered Underhill sanctuary but he left, never to return. Six months later, he was dead, a “suicide.” The bullet was in his left temple. Underhill was right-handed.

Martin,

According to a memo the CIA sent to the Justice Department, Underhill was never an employee of the CIA. He had only infrequent contact with the CIA (who hasn't? ), and that was just "routine."

I might add that there is no proof that the CIA wasn't telling the truth in that memo.

Therefore, given that Gary Underhill could not have had inside information regarding the assassination, it is reasonable to conclude the his ranting and raving were merely those of "a deeply troubled man," as James DiEugenio astutely describes Underhill in Destiny Betrayed.

As for Underhill's suicide, there is no proof that Underhill could not have shot himself in the left temple with his right hand. And so there is no reason to question his suicide.

Source: John McAdams' Website

<end stupid thinking> <end sarcasm>

(And people say McAdam's isn't a paid disinformant....)

and the cia said oswald never worked for them either

Martin:

No offense to your mother, but please note the sophistication and the knowledge Castro dispelled in that off the cuff speech to a bunch of students. For example, about the rifle, about Ruby, most of all about Mex City.

In five days?

Cliff,

look I have also heard about this drug angle from the late George Michael Evica, a long time ago. There wis also a book about it that is out.

I was speaking in terms of direct causes. There are always ramifications to a huge change in policy.

Martin, yes, Diem was thinking of talking to the north about a settlement, the CIA used this to stir up the military even more.

no offense taken; castro had a slightly better intelligence service than my mom (only slightly) anyway my point was not to compare her to castro but to show how deep and quickly there were doubts in the socio-economic structure. castro was a smart man there's no doubting that. he has survived 11 presidents.

I think at the heart of the vast majority of the political assassinations if not all of them is the removal of nationalists by globalists. The million dollar question is does this make the world a better place?

look around

sorry my mistake

sorry if this is a little scrambled but i'm trying to respond to several different matters. thanks.

i've seen some references that mention that Nhu was talking to the North Vietnamese about a settlement of what the brothers now saw as a purely vietnamese matter before his and his brother's murder. (in this scenario would they have asked America to withdraw, buttressing Kennedy's plan withdrawal or helping to further his deception re: withdrawal. after all. . .

Chiang Kai shek's Kuomintang became heavily involved in the Golden Triangle after they fled China following Mao's victory.

re: castro'ss figuring it all out, anyone with half a brain could figure it out. my mother was a clerk in a bakery and she was asking questions from the beginning. How did they know to look for Oswald? How did they know so quickly, etc. she also thought LBJ was in there somewhere. my point being not that my mother had more than half a brain – she surely did – but that something smelled wrong even to the blue collar element of the population at the time.

but at that time what did you do with those beliefs since all avenues of redress and investigation were blocked. hell even now if you had it all figured out to well beyond a reasonable doubt who would you take the information to? the government or the enquirer

one more thing:

Only hours after Kennedy was shot, CIA agent Gary Underhill left Washington, D.C., and drove to the home of friends on Long Island, N.Y. Underhill says he fears for his life and he must leave the country.

“This country is too dangerous for me. I've got to get on a boat. Oswald is a patsy. They set him up. It's too much. The bastards have done something outrageous. They've killed the president! I've been listening and hearing things. I couldn't believe they'd get away with it, but they did. They've gone mad! They're a bunch of drug runners and gun runners – a real violence group. (my emphasis) I know who they are. That's the problem. They know I know. That's why I'm here.”

The friends offered Underhill sanctuary but he left, never to return. Six months later, he was dead, a “suicide.” The bullet was in his left temple. Underhill was right-handed.

i know there were several cia people who were involved in the bay of pigs and in the assassination who were were transferred to vietnam and eth rest of SE Asia. Ted Shackley took Carl E. Jenkins, David Morales, Raphael Quintero, Felix Rodriguez and Edwin Wilson with him to Laos

I suspect DeGaulle figured out things pretty quick as well. Three world leaders all in the crosshairs at about the same time. Who would have thought Castro would be the last man standing.

Another world leader in the cross hairs at about the same time:

Ngo Dinh Diem, SVN.

In 1963 the Corsican Mafia a/k/a "the French connection" controlled the world's heroin production while the Sicilian-American Mafia controlled smack distribution in the States.

Pre-Fidel, Havana was the central depot for heroin distribution.

South Vietnam was the gateway to the yet-developed poppy fields of the Golden Triangle Laos/Burma/Thailand.

So the leaders of the USA, France, Cuba and So. Vietnam were all targeted for removal.

Interesting coincidence, eh wot?

Wow! I never looked at those events as linked in that way. Thanks for sharing that.

Whe one looks back at Iran Contra in that light it makes one realize how much the drug situation influences military and foreign policy decisions.

Intersting how when attention drifted away from the overthrow of Cuba it shifted immediately in the direction of Vietnam. Most everybody got what they wanted anyway. Ironic how in both cases all the energy had so little affect with response to communism.

Excuse my ignorance but was the geographic area that Dugalle wanted to step away from and seemed to be so central in the incentive to kill him relevant to the drug trade or was that smoke and mirrors in your opinion?

many of the 20th-21st century's wars were fought over oil and heroin

BTW, how about this one?

If Oswald is supposed to be a sharpshooter-- Stephen King has him actually saying that word as he aims at Kennedy in his stupid mini series--why would he choose a manual bolt action rifle in that situation?

I agree Mike, not only was the American pundit class completely gulled, but did anyone or any network, or media pick up Castro's two speeches?

I am pretty sure they were available.

oswald was so great a shot he didn't need good equipment; he could compensate with skill. now before anyone says or thinks anything -- just kidding

the pundit class wasn't ruled they were controlled. they reported; they didn't ever investigate. not kidding on this one.

Douglas, this is a rare time when I disagree with you. First

It looks like Hunt is the tramp. And Harrelson is there, smirking and having

a urine stain on his pant leg. The other man's identity has never been

satisfied. He definitely is not Sturgis.

The man in the raincoat attire looks like Hunt also. Supposedly Hunt said

he was in the postal annex (I think it's called) on a high floor watching the

assassination with binoculars.

I don't know which is true, if either. But there is a tramp photo where

Dorothy Hunt, Howard's wife, is in the picture with her hand to her mouth as

if shocked while looking at the 3 tramps. The 2 of them in the same picture.

Kathy C

Kathy - that photo is on sensationalist/disinfo sites. The woman is a bystander in Dealey and looks nothing like Dorothy. She's shocked because she thinks she's seeing the cops arresting the perps. You can see her in other photos outside the TSBD. She's not even looking at the old tramp.

If it were Dorothy and Howard - why would Dorothy be shocked? She was an intel pro.

I agree that Howard Hunt is not the old tramp. I have strong leanings toward accepting the tall tramp as Charles Harrelson, though.

I, too, have wondered about that lackadaisical, hatted figure crossing the street in the Cancellare photo - wondered if it is Hunt. It's important in the Dealey pix to keep an eye out for persons who look like they're from out of town. There are few men in raincoats in the photos - other than Danny Arce, and the policemen who apparently expected a long day, chance of rain.

It's also interesting that Tall Tramp and Foreign Tramp look like they bought their polo shirts in the same place.

President John F Kennedy greeted a crowd on a misty morning rain in Fort Worth at 8:45 a.m. central standard time. The weather in Dallas had been rainy, but the sun came out before the president's plane had landed. The plexiglass "bubble" top had been removed from the car. The Secret Service knew the president preferred not to use the bubble, unless it was inclement weather, according to media reports.

​where would they have hung their raincoats up?

W. Averell Harriman was tasked with negotiating the Limited Test Ban Treaty after John J. McCloy refused to participate. McCloy wanted a comprehensive treaty that was, McCloy felt at the time, available to the World after the Cuban Missile Crisis.

I personally believe this may be the single biggest contributor to the ultimate death of Kennedy.

I cannot seem to shake a feeling that there is a tie to the failure of the first Limited Test Ban Treaty that was to be signed at the Paris Summit, the U-2 incident that led to the failure of the Paris Summit, to Lee Harvey Oswald's defection to Soviet Union and the downing of the U-2. All may coincide with John J. McCloy's disdain for both treaties.

Jim Root

sometimes i think that the U-2 affair was a joint soviet-american hardliner project.

kennedy was trying to disguise withdrawal plans and johnson escalation plans

Oh, please! Who wrote this nonsense?

Scott, you really don't know the source for this?

Then you have not read Newman's book. He said it.

Wow, if you have not read that book then why are you arguing this subject at all?

It would be like arguing the RFK case without reading the Turner/Christian book.

bingo!

kennedy was trying to disguise withdrawal plans and johnson escalation plans

Oh, please! Who wrote this nonsense?

i believe it was you

What you can prove is one thing, what you believe, doesn't count, someone once said, I'll be soon swimming with a pool of sharks, I replied, more like guppies.

guppies eat their young

kennedy was trying to disguise withdrawal plans and johnson escalation plans

Oh, please! Who wrote this nonsense?

i believe it was you

i am ordering a complete and immediate withdrawal from this topic.

I always found this interesting:

In the final analysis, it is their war. They have to win it or lose it.

—John F. Kennedy, 1963

We are not about to send American boys 9 or 10,000 miles away from home to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves.

—Lyndon Baines Johnson, 1964

kennedy was trying to disguise withdrawal plans and johnson escalation plans

There are a number of pieces of evidence that indicate JFK’s policy was one of disengagement. This evidence is both anecdotal and documentary in nature. This is some of ht4e anecdotal

In 1968, (Ret.) General James M. Gavin stated:

There has been much speculation about what President Kennedy would have done in Vietnam had he lived. Having discussed military affairs with him often and in detail for 15 years, I know he was totally opposed to the introduction of combat troops in southeast Asia. His public statements just before his murder support this view.

Paul B. Fay, undersecretary of the Navy under JFK, stated:

If John Kennedy had lived, our military involvement in Vietnam would have been over by the end of 1964.

To Larry Newman, Kennedy said:

“The first thing I do when I’m re-elected, I’m going to get the Americans out of Vietnam. Exactly how I’m going to do it, right now, I don’t know.”

JFK also advised Robert McNamara:

“We are not going to have men ground up in this fashion, this far away from home. I’m going to get these guys out because we’re not going to find ourselves in a war it is impossible to win.

In 1963 Kennedy remarked to his aide Kenneth O’Donnell:

In 1965, I’ll become one of the most unpopular presidents in history. I’ll be damned everywhere as a communist appeaser, but now I don’t care. If I tried to pull out completely now from Vietnam, we would have another Joe McCarthy red scare on our hands, but I can do it after I’m re-elected. So we had better make damned sure I’m re-elected.

Senator Wayne Morse told the Boston Globe in 1973:

There’s a weak defense of John Kennedy. He’d seen the error of his ways. I’m satisfied if he’d lived another year we’d have been out of Vietnam. Ten days before his assassination, I went down to the White House and handed him his education bills, which I was handling on the Senate floor. I’d been making two to five speeches a week against Kennedy on Vietnam. . . .I’d gone into President Kennedy’s office to discuss education bills, but he said, ‘Wayne, I want you to know you’re absolutely right in your criticism of my Vietnam policy. Keep this in mind. I’m in the midst of an intensive study which substantiates your position on Vietnam.’

who cares what historians from the academy say; i want the truth.

like hunter thompson said: History is hard to know, because of all the hired b---s-it

amen,

If Robert Taylor and Glenn Smith were correct that it was “Oswald” driving Ruth Paine's Chevy, it could only have been LEE, and that most likely means that Mrs. Paine was working with BOTH Oswalds. This is just about the time that Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald is sent to New Orleans to hang out with virulent anti-Communists and pretend he loved Castro. It was the start of the frame-up of Lee HARVEY Oswald as the patsy in the assassination of President Kennedy, which would be continued in and around Dallas in the weeks leading up to the hit.

as marina said: “I had two husbands: Lee, the father of my children, an affectionate and kind man; and Harvey Oswald, the assassin of President Kennedy." Did she get them mixed up innocently? Or was it purposeful. Who was the other in addition to Harvey? Was she with both Harvey and Lee?

​Makes you wonder just what was really going on in the paine residence.

this also may have what the paines were referring to in their phone conversion on Nov 22:

Sandy,

I don't believe Marina's husband was working for any intelligence agency.

Nonetheless, the fact Marina's husband got a job at the Texas School Book Depositary is extremely suspicious. It's too convenient. It supports the idea he acted spontaneously in shooting JFK.

I work backward. JFK was killed on Elm Street. What led up to that? Quite some planning, I believe.

Then I work forward. JFK was killed on Elm Street. Why hasn't the truth of his killing been told?

The elegant solution is that Oswald did it, acting alone.

I believe, and I could be wrong, the elegant solution is seductive. But it asks for suspension of belief.

willing suspension of disbelief, Coleridge