Larry Hancock

Paul, of course you are free to believe Hall, who is demonstrably unreliable, I was in Tulsa when he was picked up in his dotage, for smuggling meth, but I'm afraid you'll have to do it without me. Of course the Odio story is intriguing, I talked with Fonzi personally about it at length. I know you find it a path to linking in your right wing people of interest to the actual attack....I think the incident might well have been part of a general positioning of Oswald as I discuss in the book, but that's as much as I can speculate on and I've seen nothing yet that allows me to take it further. Just my opinion, Larry

Tommy, there are a few instances of Oswald being sighted in Miami, which might reflect an early trial run to come up with somebody who looked enough like him to pass....I have a couple of photo comparisons on my web site that offer potential "doubles". There are several instances of someone looking like him and using his name in Dallas in the weeks right before the assassination, generally setting it up so he would be remembered as being seen at various points up and down Main Street looking for a job. That keeps things flexible if the tactical plan has to undergo some alteration at the last minute. So if you have a series of impersonations in place its certainly possible that Odio could just have been another "plant" putting his name in play with someone who might bring it up later. For that matter, there may have been other similar "plants" with people who decided never to come forward....as did Odio herself. As I keep saying, we really don't know all the elements of the plan, we only know something of what happened....as to how that compares with all the preparations made, my guess is that there were other things and other people who had been set up to implicate Oswald and that just did not jell when the plan fell apart after the shooting.

I'm afraid its a bit more complex than that not to mention that I make no claim to fully understand the Odio incident. Let me give it another shot. The two individuals who approached Oswald in New Orleans were exiles known personally to Nagell all the way back to Mexico City. While Martino knew that they were exiles playing at being Castro agents, he may not have personally known them. He corroborates Nagell in a general sense as to their role playing. Nagell had no contact with the two after New Orleans, he did know they had been in Miami previously as had he. Nagell speculated that the two men he knew had visited Odio, and gave further info about them. Given that he was already in jail at the time of the visit he may have simply been making an assumption....I've never been able to figure out how he could have specifically known that. His futher descriptions may be more accurate about the fellows in New Orleans than the two men at Odio's. Personally I'm not sure that it was Oswald at Odios, there are timing issues. You are probably aware that two exiles have made statements that they were the visitors and that Oswald was with Odio when they showed up - no corroboration for that but it did a nice job of confusing the whole issue. The premise there would be that Oswald was playing his "look for exiles buying guns and tell the FBI role" and he had tripped over the fact that Sylvia was shopping for guns. The tie breaker for me is two fold. The two men at Odio's did know Amador's true war name and that goes back to people in Miami who had been involved with the Castro assassination attempt with Veciana inside Cuba. That brings up some very interesting names. Second, she thought the men looked - which means dressed, groomed, etc - more Mexican than Cuban which seems to support Nagell's story of exiles traveling up from Mexico City, joining with Alpha 66 and eventually going from Miami, to New Orleans and ultimately to Dallas. Given that Martino recruited Alpha 66 types for the Bayo-Pawley mission, that suggests he also knew at least that overall group of exiles. I'm not sure I would call the two "double agents" since they really were not working for anyone other than their own interests in finding a patsy...at least in New Orleans. If one or both of them showed up in Dallas with Oswald, that is almost a bit strange. Given the number of Oswald impersonations in Dallas, setting him up, I can almost visualize it as the two exiles with an Oswald impersonator. -- I wish I knew that full answer, Larry

A few comments just because you did move to another thread..grin. First, Director Hoover would have loved for the visitors to be Hall, Howard and Seymour - given the last minute inquiry from the Warren Commission and his reply to that effect, that would have nullified the whole issue of conspiracy. Actually it speaks highly to the FBI field agents that they carried on and essentially neutered the formal FBI reply to the commission - leaving open the door to conspiracy, something Hoover would have preferred to avoid at that point. Certainly there would be no reason for them to use other photos since the Director wanted the Bureau solution to be those three individuals. Second, neither Hall, Howard nor Seymour map out to the two exiles Nagell had discussed being associated with from Mexico City on to LA and then to New Orleans....suggesting that it was other people at the Odio apartment. In addition Sylvia's father wrote to her that the people using his true and highly confidential war name had to be fakes .....while posit in SWHT that the only people who would have known his true name were those involved in the Veciana associated attack on Castro that put Odio into prison....definitely not Howard and Hall. In my conversations with Gaeton we discussed the photos and he himself showed Sylvia a set of photos - I don't have it in writing but as I recall that included the two and she passed on them with him as well. Finally, you state that Hall called Odio as if it were some proven fact...it is not. And in that point, Hall was so unreliable that neither Hemming nor Howard trusted him and one of the right wing groups he spoke to in California had him take a polygraph just to vet some of his basic story - nobody trusted the man. I'm sure this will continue though....come on lurkers, doesn't else somebody want to talk with Paul or add something in here.....

Great work Tommy! First off I suspect you are right and either she just mispronounced the name or Fruge heard it wrong....after all Rose was not in very good shape and getting a name like that pronounced just right could have been a challenge anyway, its not like anybody asked her twice or really tried to straighten it out when she was in better health. Heck, they just dumped her back on the street - mostly because nobody wanted to admit how badly they had handled the whole thing in intercepting the sailor with the drugs. As to the missing page/pages, based on my experience I'd say its more likely a clerical error. I bet if you did a request for that document now you might well get all the pages. In any event, I've always been convinced that the drug story was solid and she was indeed naming people who were seriously involved in drug smuggling. Larry

COMMENTS BELOW, Larry, I detect that the door is still not slammed shut for my Edwin Walker theory. PAUL, IF YOU COME UP WITH ACTUAL NEW DATA ON INDIVIDUALS INVOLVED IN THE DALLAS ATTACK I'LL BE HAPPY TO LOOK AT IT. I WOULD SUGGEST YOU PUT IT IN A NEW THREAD. THIS THREAD IS FAR TOO LONG, TOO BROAD AND I WILL NOT BE CHECKING IT ANY FURTHER. AS TO THE WALKER THEORY, I DON'T FIND IT VIABLE NOW NOR DID I AFTER EXAMINING THE RIGHT WING CONNECTIONS FOR SOME SIX OR SEVEN YEARS WHEN I FIRST STARTED LOOKING INTO THIS LONG, LONG AGO. First, you acknowledge the direct participation of at least one DPD officer -- and one other DPD officer who covered for him (e.g. refused to disclose his name). Secondly, you continue to suggest that Jack Ruby fully fit the bill for a street-level asset who could fill in all the needed information of a "Dallas Intelligence Network". We have evidence, for example, that Ruby probably drove some of the shooters to the murder site that morning. We know that he had loose connections with DPD officers through his striptease club. This is indeed a lower level -- yet it is too low. It is not conducive, IMHO, to the sort of "Dallas Intelligence Network" that Rip Robertson would find indispensible. I'M AFRAID YOU REALLY NEED TO DO MORE HOMEWORK ON COVERT ACTION, SOMEONE LIKE WALKER WOULD BE TOTALLY UNNECESSARY FOR EXPERIENCED PARAMILITARY FOLKS PLUS HE WOULD HAVE HAD NO OPERATIONAL CREDIBILITY OR TRUSTED CONNECTIONS. ANY PARAMILITARY ACTION TEAM WOULD HAVE SELECTED THEIR OWN AMBUSH POINTS AND THIS TEAM HAD BEEN WORKING TOGETHER FOR SOME TIME. PICKING OUT THE PLAZA WAS CERTAINLY NOT A CHALLENGE, ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW IS THE GENERAL ROUTE AND FOR THAT MATTER EVERY POLITICAL MOTORCADE IN DALLAS CAME DOWN MAIN STREET. I'M DON'T SEEM TO BE ABLE TO GET ACROSS THESE POINTS BUT I'VE SAID THEM ENOUGH, NO NEED TO REPEAT THEM FURTHER. I REALLY SEE NO BENEFIT IN CONTINUING THIS FURTHER, IF YOU OR ANYONE ELSE HAS QUESTIONS, EMAIL ME. IF YOU HAVE NEW DATA START A NEW THREAD. LARRY

Alright, I'm back now so to continue a bit: I'm certainly not painting the entire DPD with one brush. I believe most DPD officers had no idea what was going on that day. Yet there were some DPD officers -- and I won't call them "dirty," I'll call them ultra-rightist -- who believed it was patriotic to oppose JFK in any way possible. They wouldn't be bribed or blackmailed by Jack Ruby to participate -- they'd be motivated by their own politics. PAUL, IF YOU CAN NAME THEM AND CONNECT THEM IN SOME SOLID FASHION TO THE TACTICAL TEAM I'VE NAMED THEN CERTAINLY I COULD APPRECIATE THEM BEING DRIVEN BY POLITICS. BUT YOU WOULD NEED TO DEMONSTRATE THE CONNECTION. IN CONTRAST IT IS POSSIBLE TO AT LEAST PRESENT LEADS AND SOURCES WHO TIE PEOPLE LIKE ROSCOE WHITE AND TIPPETT TO JACK RUBY AND IN TIPPETT'S CASE ALSO TO THE CUBAN EXILE COMMUNITY VIA THE PART TIME JOB HE HELD AT A SPANISH LANGUAGE THEATRE THAT WAS FREQUENTED BY CUBAN EXILES. AND IT IS VERY POSSIBLE, AND I DO IT IN SWHT, TO CONNECT RUBY TO CUBA, CUBAN EXILES AND SPECIFICALLY TO HAVANA CASINO FIGURES ASSOCIATED WITH JOHN ROSELLI DURING HIS TIME IN HAVANA...FOR THAT MATTER THE SAME THING CAN BE DONE FOR JOHN MARTINO. MARTINO STATED THAT HE PLAYED A COURIER ROLE TO DALLAS AND THE PEOPLE THAT WOULD HAVE ACCEPTED HIM IN SUCH A ROLE INCLUDED TRUSTED CUBAN EXILES AND FOR THAT MATTER JACK RUBY. And since you raised the history of political assassination, I'll also raise the case of the attempted assassination of De Gaulle in 1962, because extreme right-wing policemen were also involved in that attempt, according to De Gaulle himself. I WAS SPEAKING OF POLITICAL ASSASSINATION AS IT ORIGINATED INSIDE THE CIA AND THE METHODS AND PRACTICES OF ITS OFFICERS, IN THIS INSTANCE SPECIFICALLY TO DAVID MORALES WHO BOTH CONDUCTED TRAINING IN SUCH ACTIVITIES AND WAS ASSOCIATED WITH THE CASTRO ASSASSINATION PROJECT BOTH BEFORE AND AFTER HARVEY BECAME INVOLVED WITH IT. (3) While others outside the DPD could rent that parking space behind the Grassy Knoll, it tended to be reserved for DPD officers, Sheriff Deputies, and other local government officials. I'm aware that no DPD officers were assigned to that area during the motorcade -- yet that says nothing about off-duty policemen. Also, there was little to prevent policemen from wearing their uniforms before or after a shift -- i.e. while they were off-duty. Furthermore, if an off-duty policeman was doing something illegal, what better cover could he hope for than to wear his uniform? TO THAT I WOULD AGREE, INDEED IN SWHT I SPECIFICALLY POINT OUT ONE INDIVIDUAL IN A DPD UNIFORM WHO WAS TURNING AWAY THE EARLIEST OFFICERS UP THERE AND WAS INDEED IDENTIFIED AS A DPD OFFICER.....BUT WE NOW KNOW THAT IN CONTRAST TO WHAT HE SAID THEN HE WAS NOT ASSIGNED THERE. UNFORTUNATELY ONCE THE OFFICER REALIZED WHAT HE WAS SAYING HE REFUSED TO COMMENT FURTHER AND NAME THE ACTUAL OFFICER. I think I've clarified that I'm not comparing Walker with Rip Robertson. My only question is that if Robertson wanted Dallas intelligence -- and if he had a choice between mobster Jack Ruby and former General Edwin Walker, who would he choose? ROBERTSON HIMSELF WOULD NOT HAVE CHOSEN, HE WOULD HAVE BEEN DIRECTED TO RUBY VIA ROSELLI. HOWEVER IF HE HAD TO GO IN AND PICK SOMEONE HE WOULD HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR SOMEONE WITH KNOWN CONNECTIONS TO DPD AND LAW ENFORCEMENT TYPES AND RUBY WOULD STILL HAVE FIT THE BILL. ROBERTSON DID NOT NEED ANY COVERT ACTION PLANNING ASSISTANCE FROM A FORMER GENERAL, WHAT HE NEEDED WAS STREET LEVEL INFO. I can be convinced that Walker wasn't involved -- if somebody shows conclusively that people unconnected with Walker fully comprised the ground-crew, then I'll fold my hand. (That means, of course, that the DRE cannot be involved -- or Loran Hall, or Gerry Patrick Hemming.) AS I'VE SAID BEFORE, I DO BELIEVE INDIVIDUALS ASSOCIATED WITH HEMMING WERE INVOLVED IN A SUPPORT ROLE, ROY HARGRAVES FOR ONE. HOWEVER AT THAT POINT IN TIME HARGRAVES WAS RUNNING INDEPENDENT OPERATIONS WITH CUBAN EXILES HE TRUSTED, NOR FOR HEMMING. I CERTAINLY BELIEVE THAT HEMMING COULD HAVE HEARD SOMETHING OF THE PLOT, MY RESEARCH TELLS ME NOBODY REALLY TRUSTED HALL, CERTAINLY NOT HEMMING. AS TO THE DRE BEING INVOLVED, OTHER THAN BEING AN INITIAL SOURCE OF INFO ON OSWALD I DON'T SEE THE GROUP PER SE INVOLVED AT ALL...ON THE OTHER HAND CERTAIN POTENTIAL EXILE PARTICIPANTS BELONGED JOINTLY TO DRE AND ALPHA 66. HOWEVER IF THEY WERE RECRUITED IT WAS BECAUSE OF THEIR PERSONAL ABILITIES, NOT THEIR ORGANIZATION. Yet Walker was involved in New Orleans, in Miami, and in the company of rightist fanatics like Joseph Milteer in Georgia. One cannot set dismiss the right-wing and make the JFK murder into an entirely CIA-Mafia plot, because the right-wing insisted on a front-row seat (e.g. Milteer was in Dealey Plaza that day). AGAIN AS I'VE MENTIONED EARLIER, THE NSRP AND CERTAIN OF ITS SENIOR OFFICERS, INCLUDING GALE AND SWIFT IN LA WERE MOST DEFINITELY MAKING PLANS TO ATTACK JFK AND OTHERS. MILTEER WAS AWARE OF THAT AND IF HE WAS IN DALLAS HE MAY VERY WELL HAVE BEEN SCOUTING FOR THEIR PLANNED ATTACK. I DON'T DISMISS THE RIGHT WING AS A THREAT TO JFK. ACCEPTING THAT ANY OF THOSE FOLKS WOULD PASS THE ACID TEST OF BEING TRUSTED BY THE TIGHTLY BONDED AND EXPERIENCED GROUP THAT I DO BELIEVE CONDUCTED THE ATTACK IS ANOTHER STORY ENTIRELY. THERE WERE SOME INTENSE PERSONAL BONDS THERE, SOME OF THEM GOING BACK TO INDIVIDUALS WHO HAD BEEN JOINTLY UNDER FIRE AT THE BOP AS WELL AS IMPRISONED TOGETHER AFTERWARDS. I realize you're not trying to convince me of the innocence of Edwin Walker, Larry. I appreciate your feedback. I look forward to your further comments.

Paul, I'm rushed for time but I'll be back later... Quickly however, in no way am I stating Ruby ran the Dallas operation - I don't seem to be getting that across to you. I'm stating that he was a minor asset used to support and enable tactical operations in Dallas due to his connections and knowledge of the city. In regard to comparing Walker to Robertson, there simply is no comparison if you know anything about Robertson - plus the tactical team assembled to kill Castro was closely bonded to Robrertson as were a number of exiles. They trusted him, they accepted him; in no way would that translate to taking operational orders from an unknown individual with no field operational experience with them. I'll provide a bit fuller response later - but to clarify, any points I make are in support of the scenario I've offered or an effort to explain it. In no way would I attempt to argue off of a Walker scenario and honestly I don't envision that anyone could ever offer you sufficient "proof" to shift you off of it. I'm certainly not attempting to do so.

COMMENTS BELOW IN CAPS: Larry, I reviewed your END GAME chapter last night, and your summary above is fitting. I don't know if you'll agree today, but in your chapter, END GAME, you make a statement in which I believe I can insert the claims of Harry Dean regarding Edwin Walker and the JBS in Dallas. Here's your specific statement regarding the CIA-Mafia conspiracy that you are tracing: "What they did not have were two things: time and a Dallas intelligence network." (SWHT/2010, p. 299) BY THAT PAUL, I MEANT THAT THE TEAM OUT OF FLORIDA DID NOT HAVE "FIELD INTELLIGENCE" E.G. A LONG TIME GEOGRAPHIC FAMILIARITY WITH DALLAS - ROADS, ROUTES, BUILDINGS, TRAFFIC - ALL THE ELEMENTS IMPORTANT TO ATTACK PLANNING. THEY ALSO HAD NO INSIDE CONTACTS WITH DPD OFFICERS WHO MIGHT GOSSIP ABOUT SUCH THINGS AS SECURITY PLANNING, ROUTES, TRAFFIC CONTROL ETC. JACK RUBY AND HIS WIDESPREAD KNOWLEDGE OF DALLAS AND CONTACTS WITH DPD OFFICERS PROVIDED EXACTLY THAT. HE WOULD ALSO HAVE BEEN FAMILIAR WITH OFFICERS WHO MIGHT BE APPROACHED FOR PERIPHERAL ASSIGNMENTS - KNOWINGLY OR UNKNOWINGLY ASSOCIATED WITH THE TACTICAL PLAN. OF COURSE AT THE TIME SOME OF THOSE LITTLE JOBS MIGHT HAVE SOUNDED TOTALLY INNOCENT OR UNRELATED TO THE MOTORCADE OR EVEN SECURITY...AFTERWARDS, ANOTHER STORY. JUST DOING SURVEILLANCE ON SOMEONE - LIKE OSWALD - COULD HAVE BEEN HANDLED THAT WAY. BY USE OF THE WORD INTELLIGENCE WAS STRICTLY IN REGARD TO TACTICAL INTELLIGENCE FOR THE TEAM AND THE ATTACK. I want to pursue this opening with the words of Jim Garrison in 1968, to the effect that the JFK murder conspiracy would never have gone forward without assurances of cooperation from high-level people in the Dallas Police Department. I KNOW GARRISON FELT THAT WAY AS DO MANY PEOPLE; I DON'T AND AS A MATTER OF FACT IN THE REAL WORLD THE MORE PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT A COVERT ACTION THE WORSE IT IS; REAL PROFESSIONALS DON'T WANT OR NEED A BIG SUPPORT NETWORK. I SHOULD ALSO POINT OUT THAT ANY TEAM BEING TRAINED TO GO INTO CUBA AND KILL CASTRO CERTAINLY WAS NOT COUNTING ON ANY EXTENDED LOCAL SUPPORT OR ASSURANCES FROM HIGH LEVEL PEOPLE. Your END GAME, Larry, tends to give the DPD a free pass by considering that the CIA-Mafia plot simply bamboozled them. Jim Garrison would not draw that conclusion, and neither would Penn Jones or his key witness, Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig. I UNDERSTAND PAUL, HOWEVER I DON'T GIVE THE DPD A TOTALLY FREE PASS IN TERMS OF CERTAIN INDIVIDUAL OFFICERS, BUT AS AN ORGANIZATION YES I DO. TALKING ABOUT THE DPD AS AN ENTITY IS SORT OF LIKE TALKING ABOUT THE CIA AS AN ENTITY, I DON'T FIND IT THAT USEFUL NOR DO I FIND ANY SIGN THAT IS THE WAY TRUE COVERT ACTION WORKS IN THE REAL WORLD. A LOT OF PEOPLE TALK AS IF IT HAPPENS THAT WAY BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT THE ACTUAL HISTORY SHOWS...THAT IS WHY I STUDIED THE HISTORY OF POLITICAL ASSASSINATION IN NEXUS. Roger Craig noted that the area behind the picket fence at the Grassy Knoll was always controlled by the DPD, because it was a DPD parking lot. There was only one gate of entrance/exit into that parking lot, which was controlled by a rented key. The public had no access back there in 1963. WHILE I DO THINK CERTAIN OF CRAIG'S OBSERVATIONS ON NOVEMBER 22 ARE VERY IMPORTANT, THE PARKING LOT WAS NOT STRICTLY A DPD PARKING AREA....YOU NEED TO DO FURTHER HOMEWORK ON THAT AND A NUMBER OF FOLKS HAVE DONE THAT ALREADY. YOU SHOULD ALSO NOTE THAT NO DPD OFFICERS WERE ASSIGNED TO THAT AREA DURING THE MOTORCADE; SECURITY OTHER THAN THAT ON THE OVERPASS STOPPED AT HOUSTON. OF COURSE YOU ALREADY KNOW FROM SWHT THAT I DO PLACE "DIRTY" DPD OFFICERS - AT LEAST ONE - BEHIND THE FENSE, THAT IS IN SWHT, BUT THAT WAS A MATTER EASILY FACILITATED BY RUBY. It's no accident that people (and cameras) saw uniformed DPD officers up on the Grassy Knoll when JFK was murdered. The question is, of course, how many Dallas players could be drafted into a plot to murder JFK. William Turner offers a quick answer -- the DPD in 1963 was composed of radical right-wingers. One could not join the DPD in those days, says Turner (Power on the Right, 1971) without being a member of the Minutemen, John Birch Society, KKK or some other right-wing organization, e.g. the Friends of Walker. Would it be difficult to find voluunteers from the DPD to join a JFK murder plot from among these types? Insofar as the CIA-Mafia plot that you outline needed a "Dallas intelligence network" very quickly, then the rightist paramilitary people who actually lived in Dallas would stand up front and center. Here's where Ex-General Edwin Walker comes in. (And here's where Harry Dean's memoirs can fit in.) So, I'd propose a couple of tweaks to your scenario, Larry -- starting with that "Dallas intelligence network." I'd insert Edwin Walker precisely at that point. I'd enlist DPD officers Roscoe White and/or JD Tippit on the ground at the Grassy Knoll (as "badge man"). Other off-duty DPD officers, members of the KKK, would also be on hand up there. PAUL, I UNDERSTAND YOU WANT TWEAKS BECAUSE YOU HAVE YOUR MIND SET ON FITTING WALKER INTO THE CONSPIRACY, THAT'S FINE WITH ME BUT I DON'T FIND IT NECESSARY OR CREDIBLE. Wes Swearingen adds a notation to his CIA-Mafia plot as well -- that in Dallas at the time of the JFK murder in Dealey Plaza, there was a military man on leave taking movies of JFK passing by and being murdered. He hit the ground after the shots rang out. When he looked up, there were two DPD officers standing above him, demanding his film. They ripped it up and walked away. In conclusion, Larry, I'd ask how you might conclude that Jack Ruby had paramilitary organizational skills that Ex-General Edwin Walker, with 30 years US Army experience, somehow lacked. YOU MISS THE ENTIRE POINT PAUL, RUBY PROVIDED INFORMATION AND CONTACTS TO THE PARAMILITARY TEAM. BUT TO EQUATE SOMEONE LIKE EDWIN WALKER WITH AN A PROFESSIONAL CIA COVERT ACTION SPECIALIST LIKE RIP ROBERTSON IS SIMPLY LUDICROUS.....

Paul, for reference I'll give you a Cliff notes version of the "on the ground" scenario. I know this is way to minimalist to please a lot of folks but I'm not pushing it on anyone. The actual attack in Dallas was carried out by a well trained paramilitary team which had been practicing and doing dry runs to infiltrate Cuba and carry out a sniper attack on Fidel Castro for over a year. That group had evolved out of the earlier poison pill attempts and was very deeply compartmentalized out of JMWAVE, being run directly by Rip Robertson and with oversight by David Morales and support by John Roselli. Both men were still working with William Harvey in 1963 and met with him in late spring of that year. At that point in time Harvey had learned from Angleton of the back channel negotiations by JFK with Castro and I believe Harvey carried that word to Miami where it was passed via Morales and Robertson to selected individuals in the exile community as well as to the Castro assassination team. Those early efforts by JFK went into a bit of a limbo during the summer but reignited that fall and in NEXUS I go over the fact that some of Morale's Cuban counter intelligence team was assigned to seriously investigate the back channel....that effort was carried out in Miami and Mexico City where those assets and Morales were both active. Specific plans to attack JFK began at that point, Oswald was contacted and began to be manipulated as a patsy. Jumping ahead to Dallas to get into the ground level of the operation, it was easy enough to infiltrate the shooting team into Dallas, compared to going into Cuba that was a snap. The only thing they needed was somebody with good local intelligence about Dallas and the DPD, they got that via Jack Ruby and Roselli used his own connections in LA to bring Ruby in for a minor role that turned major only after the plan fell apart. They money for Ruby came from LA, I discuss that at length in the book. Actually Ruby also made a fine contingency second patsy since he had already tried to do business with Castro and had a track record connecting him to Cuba already. That sort of thing had made him known to Roselli who was working in Havana during Jacks early travel to the casino's there. The tactical team had already practiced complex attack scenarios and as I mentioned before, Veciana tells us that the Dallas scenario had all the elements that some of them later used unsuccessfully against Castro in an attempt in Latin America. It involved blocking the route - I describe the use of an ambulance and very possibly a pick up, perhaps with a bomb - the motorcade was late however and the blocking just missed, the ambulance was pulling out of the Elm/Houston intersection just as the motorcade turned the cornor off Main. The pick up had diverted several of the cops in the plaza, particularly the two on the bridge, facilitating infiltration of the shooters. Diversions were arranged behind the fence to draw people there and allow exfilitaration of the shooters. The two men on Elm performed a dual role, monitoring whether the primary attack had to be aborted or not, presenting a diversion for the driver of the limo and just possibly in place if a car bomb had needed to come into play. I posit to back up attack sites as well. As far as the patsy effort went, simply making sure a rifle that could be traced to him was found at the scene of the crime tied him to the shooting, regardless of where he was ultimately found and his "legend" by that point pointed to Castro. The plan Veciana decribes was equilly sophisticated including false documents and even photos showing the intended patsy associating with the parties to be framed. I should probably point out that Harvey's basic notes on generic assassination projects note that it was always desirable to have a patsy in place connected to the Soviets and to place the blame on them. As Martino tells us the plan aborted with his capture and the chance at planting additional material associating him with Castro was lost. In the book I discuss the after the fact to insert at least some of that material into evidence and how that was frustration by the lone nut ploy. That's pretty much it in a nutshell, not all that many people involved, a scenario that had been practiced and would even be used again, solid paramilitary craft. -- hopefully that might structure reading of the relevant chapters in SWHT - which are not nearly as tightly organized as they would be if I were writing it now...sigh, Larry I

Well Paul, between SWHT and NEXUS I name some of the tactical people who I think were on the ground in Dallas, I specify the overall ambush scenario including diversions and blockages and I also specify my prime suspects for the people who organized the team and most likely directed it on the ground. What I do not do is state exactly who I think was shooting from what position which I don't know. I also get very specific on Ruby's role and who brought him into it and how and present several outlines of the day by day timing of the whole thing. In SWHT I spend a lot of time focusing on who I think contacted Oswald, how he was maneuvered, the things that were going on around him in Dallas etc. I also go into great detail drawing out the relationship between the CIA folks, the exiles and the criminal links that were involved. As far as I know I make one of the more specific "connect the dots"s scenarios between origin and execution that is on record - in particular I would refer you to the End Game chapter in SWHT. I won't pretend I can name all the individuals nor lay out the exact details of the tactical plan but for example I name the two fellows on Elm Street and I also present two specific possibilities for Oswald impersonators...you can find those photos on my web site...although it has been hacked a couple of times and I haven't looked recently. Its certainly specific in a lot of places -- I really don't know how to answer your "what am I missing question", as I've said, if folks have specific questions, just email me, I really don;t have the time to replicate the whole process here nor an interesting in debating scenarios. It's seems that Ernie and I are the only one's commenting on this huge thread anyway ....? Larry

Paul, actually the lone assassin arose out of an immediate need to deal with indications that American intelligence officers had been involved and also to ensure no broad investigation that would expose a host of CIA activities that went on in and around Oswald. While Hoover (unwillingly) and Warren (pressured by Johnson) went along with it the whole thing originated at the National Security Council level with Johnson taking the lead and Bundy following along. It probably involved a legal presidential national security directive which remains classified. I see no rupture at all and if you read NEXUS you will find my very specific view of how the assassination conspiracy began, who incited it and who carried it out. As I mentioned in one of my recent posts, its even possible that the tactical team was made promises about Cuba that were never intended to be carried out - some of them including John Martino wondered about that in later years. On the other hand, of course there was a high level division over Cuba, which made JFK's back channel approach to Castro so extremely risky. As you see in SWHT my view is that was the final straw in triggering a limited move by select CIA officers such as Angleton and Harvey and Morales to address what they considered treason and a national security risk. -- Larry

I understand your scenario Paul, obviously I disagree, I'll simply leave you with it. Larry

OK, HERE WE GO WITH COMMENTS: We tend to agree that Oswald in NOLA was in contact with pro-Castro and anti-Castro Cuban Exiles, as well as double agents. There were Cuban Exiles from Miami who tried to make Oswald into their patsy for a possible Washington DC murder of JFK. We have hard evidence gleaned from letters from Oswald's own hand to the FPCC and CPUSA, about a move to Baltimore. AGREED This drama was witnessed by Richard Case Nagell -- it involved a phony Castro supporter and a genuine Castro supporter. The skullduggery was thick.. CERTAINLY A PHONY CASTRO SUPPORTER, HARD TO TELL ON THE OTHER ONE...HE MAY HAVE BEEN A TRIPLE, MAY HAVE BEEN GOING BACK AND FORTH, BOTTOM LINE AS FAR AS OSWALD WAS CONCERNED THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO BE CASTRO AGENTS AND MARTINO CONSIDERED THEM BOTH TO BE ANTI CASTRO You suggest that a JFK murder in DC was possibly foiled by Nagell’s efforts, or by Oswald's failure to obtain a Cuban visa in time, or both. In any case, you opine that the Washington DC plotters were -- at a high level -- the same as the Dallas plotters -- correct? NAGELL CAME ON TOO HARD AND FAST IN NEW ORLEANS AS HE HAD IN MIAMI, HE KNEW HE HAD LITTLE TIME, HE COULD NOT UNDERSTAND WHY OSWALD WAS NOT HEEDING HIS WARNING AND HE HAD NO CLUE THAT OSWALD HIMSELF WAS GOING TO STICK IN CONTACT WITH THE GUYS TO COLLECT AND HOPEFULLY REPORT ON THEIR PLANS....MOST LIKELY TO THE FBI.. THE CUBANS TWEAKED TO NAGELL AND SET OUT TO ELIMINATE HIM AND HE HEADED FOR THE BORDER....HE WAS LIKELY TRAILED AND MAY EVEN HAVE KILLED ONE OF THE CUBANS TRAILING HIM. AS FAR AS OSWALD GOES, IT APPEARS THAT HE BROKE CONTACT WITH THE TWO AT THAT POINT AND ITS UNCLEAR WHETHER ONE OR BOTH RECONNECTED WITH HIM IN DALLAS. IT MAY HAVE BEEN NEITHER OR IT MAY HAVE BEEN SOMEONE CLAIMING TO KNOW THEM OR HE MAY SIMPLY HAVE BEEN FOCUSED ON THE GUN DEALINGS WITH THE ALPHA 66 AND DRE GUYS THAT WERE GOING DOWN IN DALLAS. ASSUMING THAT HE WAS COLLECTING INTEL FOR THE FBI, THEIR BIGGEST PRIORITY AT THAT POINT IN TIME WAS BUSTING CUBAN EXILE WEAPONS PURCHASES. AT THIS POINT I'M NOT SURE AT ALL THAT THE TACTICAL OPERATION IN DALLAS WAS ORGANIZED BY THE TWO GUYS WHO CONTACTED OSWALD IN MIAMI, INDEED I DOUBT IT. I SUSPECT THE DALLAS PLOTTERS SIMPLY PICKED UP ON HIM AS A PATSY AND WHAT WENT ON IN MEXICO CITY SOLIDIFIED THAT FOR THEM. THE ONLY THING THAT WAS VIRTUALLY CERTAIN WAS THAT WITH A NEW BABY DUE HE WOULD BE IN DALLAS BY NOVEMBER. You then suggest that these plotters took advantage of Oswald's trip to Mexico City to form a totally a new image of Oswald as a "loose cannon" that could be traced to Fidel Castro. NO, NOT REALLY, OSWALD MAINTAINED THE SAME IMAGE HE HAD, A CASTRO SUPPORTER, - THE ODIO INCIDENT PITCHED HIM AS A LOOSE CANNON BUT AS SOMETHING OF A MERCENARY WHO COULD KILL EITHER CASTRO OR KENNEDY - BY MEXICO CITY HE WAS LOOKING MUCH MORE FRENETIC AND DISTRACTED AND NOT MUCH LIKE THE PICTURE GIVEN TO ODIO. CERTAINLY NOTHING IN MEXICO CITY HAD THE FLAVOR OF HIM KILLING EITHER CASTRO OR KENNEDY DEPENDING UPON HOW HE FELT ON A GIVEN DAY. I If I have that right, then my question is why did these plotters believe that Oswald went to Mexico in the first place? Or are we possibly observing two sets of plotters -- those who sent Oswald to Mexico, and those who formed a new plot involving Oswald as a "loose cannon"? I DON'T SEE THE ODIO GUYS BEING INVOLVED IN MEXICO CITY AT ALL. WHETHER OR NOT EITHER WAS INVOLVED IN THE DALLAS ATTACK IS BEYOND ME. THE ODIO INCIDENT MAY WELL HAVE BEEN THE LAST GASP OF A PLAN THAT STARTED IN NEW ORLEANS AND TARGETED WASHINTON DC. JUST NOT SURE. There is also disagreement between JFK researchers about whether Oswald was really recorded at those Embassies in Mexico City -- Oswald's photographs and voice are nowhere to be found. Also, the descriptions of Oswald given by the clerks often fails to match Oswald at all. PERSONALLY I AM CONVINCED OSWALD WAS IN MEXICO CITY, I AM UNCONVINCED HE WAS AT ODIO'S THE MOST SIGNIFICANT PART OF MEXICO CITY IN REGARD TO DALLAS IS THE TELEPHONE IMPERSONATIONS AND BILL SIMPICH IS DOING A FANTASTIC JOB OF EXPOSING THAT. You then suggest that the Dallas plot only became firm as of October 1st, after Oswald's failure to get a Cuban Visa. But what were the plotters hoping to do in case Oswald succeeded in getting a Cuban Visa? Again, are we looking at two sets of plotters here? OSWALD HAD NO MONEY TO TRAVEL BEYOND MEXICO CITY EVEN IF HE HAD A VISA. ALSO, THE CIA GUYS INVOLVED HAD EXTENSIVE EXPERIENCE WITH THE MEXICO CITY EMBASSY VIA THE AMSANTA PROJECT AND INDEED PART OF HIS VISIT THERE MAY WELL HAVE BEEN ASSOCIATED WITH AN ANTI-CUA, ANTI-FPCC PROPAGANDA PROJECT TOTALLY APART FROM ANYTHING RELATED TO DALLAS. IF HE HAD MANAGED TO GET A VISA HE MIGHT WELL HAVE BEEN TURNED INTO A PROPAGANDA ASSET ON THE ORDER OF NEW ORLEANS. AGAIN, A MATTER OF DIFFERENT THINGS GOING ON WITH AND AROUND OSWALD WITH DIFFERENT AGENDAS. (In Harry Dean's scenario, the original plan given by Guy Gabaldon in Southern California was for Loran Hall and Larry Howard to deliver Oswald to Gabaldon in Mexico City, and then for Gabaldon to give Oswald phony instructions regarding Dallas. As Harry Dean heard the plot first-hand, the JFK murder was to take place at the Trade Mart. Yet this Dallas plot was firmly set in place two weeks before Loran Hall and Larry Howard made their trip to give Oswald a ride to Mexico.) I THINK PLANNING FOR DALLAS BEGAN SOMETIME IN LATE SEPTEMBER, AGAIN, WITH THE BABY DUE, YOU COULD COUNT ON OSWALD BEING IN DALLAS BY NOVEMBER Your theory and Harry Dean's theory agree fully that the setup of Oswald in Dallas was done without Oswald's direct knowledge. Oswald was totally ignorant of any role he was playing in Dallas from the time he arrived there -- so he had to be managed. I SUSPECT OSWALD CONTINUED TO PLAY MULTIPLE ROLES AFTER HIS ARRIVAL IN DALLAS AND MAY EVEN HAVE BEEN GETTING A BIT TIRED OF IT ALL. I'M NOT SURE HE HAD TO BE "MANAGED" ALL THAT MUCH, HE CERTAINLY HAD TO BE MONITORED AND PERHAPS NUDGED NOW AND THEN. ONE KEY THING TO REMEMBER IS THAT OSWALD COULD HAVE BEEN PATSIED AS AN ACCESSORY TO CONSPIRACY AND WITH LEADS POINTING TO CASTRO SIMPLY BY PLANTING A RIFLE AND OTHER MATERIAL CONNECTED TO HIM AT A KEY POINT. YOU CAN BET THAT EVEN IF HE HAD BEEN OUT FRONT AND THE POLICE HAD FOUND "HIS" RIFLE, HE WOULD HAVE BEEN PULLED IN AND A CASTRO SPONSORED CONSPIRACY WOULD HAVE SURFACED. I THINK WE ALL MAKE A FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKE IN ASSUMING THAT EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED WAS ACCORDING TO PLAN - WE HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING EXACTLY WHAT THE DETAILED PLAN FOR THAT DAY REALLY WAS. PERHAPS OUR BEST CLUE IS FROM VECIANA WHO DESCRIBED IT AS VERY SIMILAR TO A PLAN DEVELOPED TO KILL CASTRO. If Gerry Patrick Hemming was telling the truth when he claimed that he offered Lee Harvey Oswald double the market price for his rifle if he would bring it to the TSBD on 22Nov63, then this is a bit of information that Harry Dean did not know about. I GREATLY RESPECT HEMMING'S INTELLECT, BUT AS HIS BROTHER HAS SAID, GERRY PROTECTED HIMSELF BY SPREADING SO MUCH BS THAT IT WAS SAFE TO ASSUME HE WOULD NEVER REVEAL ANYTHING REALLY DAMAGING. THAT I BELIEVE. First, it suggests that plans had been changed to murder JFK at Dealey Plaza, instead of at the Trade Mart, as Harry Dean expected. Secondly, it means that Hemming was more deeply involved with Loran Hall and Larry Howard than Harry Dean knew. OF COURSE I DISAGREE - ALTHOUGH GIVEN THE CALIBER OF THE TACTICAL TEAM I SUSPECT THERE WERE AT LEAST THREE POTENTIAL ATTACK POINTS WITH TWO IN THE PLAZA AREA, ONE POSSIBLY WITH A LONG RANGE SNIPER AT THE TRADE MART AND ONE AT THE AIRPORT - VERY SIMILAR TO WHAT VECIANA DESCRIBES. You then suggest, Larry, that during the month of October 1963, the plotters began selecting other patsies -- just in case they might be needed. Jack Ruby was a candidate, as was Loran Hall and possibly Carlos Quiroga. I MAY NOT HAVE BEEN CLEAR ON THAT, WHAT I BELIEVE IS THAT OTHER INDIVIDUALS WERE IDENTIFIED WHO COULD BE ASSOCIATED WITH OSWALD AND ALSO BE PRESENTED AS BEING EITHER CASTRO SUPPORTERS OR SIMPLY IN THE PAY OF CASTRO AGENTS - GIVEN THAT RUBY HAD MORE THAN ONCE TRIED TO DO BUSINESS WITH CASTRO AFTER THE REVOLUTION, THAT MADE HIM A GREAT CANDIDATE. IF THE PLAN HAD COME DOWN AS I BELIEVE IT WAS CRATED, A NUMBER OF CONVINCING LEADS WOULD HAVE TIED IN CASTRO. AS MARTINO RELATES, THE PLAN FELL APART AND WAS NEVER FULLY EXECUTED. I would add here that Guy Gabaldon acted suspiciously one night in a Los Angeles restaurant when out of the blue he hired a female restaurant photographer to take a dozen photographs of Harry Dean from many different angles. Was Harry Dean also considered as a candidate for patsy? After all, Harry could also be associated with Fidel Castro in official records. Two others feared they could be made into patsies because of their past affiliation with Fidel Castro -- Hemming and Nagell. Following the murder of JFK, all of these guys would be reported in contact with Oswald before the assassination. But the information was never used. For example, as you point out, Larry, the FBI can be shown to have officially avoided investigating either Quiroga or Hall to the fullest. Is it possible that this frustrated the actual plotters? OH I THINK THERE WAS SOME FRUSTRATION, OF COURSE THE SHOOTERS AND SOME OF THE PEOPLE DIRECTLY INVOLVED HATED JFK AND WERE PERSONALLY HAPPY TO SETTLE A SCORE BUT THERE WAS CERTAINLY FRUSTRATION OVER CUBA. I WILL ALSO SAY THAT THERE ARE INDICATIONS THAT SOME OF THE PEOPLE INVOLVED LATER CAME TO QUESTION WHETHER THEY HAD SIMPLY BEEN USED TO KILL JFK AND ATTACKING CUBA HAD NEVER BEEN IN THE CARDS. Harry Dean and I affirm today that the plotters who murdered JFK were hoping for the USA to invade Cuba and kill Fidel Castro -- first and foremost. Yet the "Lone Assassin" theory of J. Edgar Hoover (and promoted actively by LBJ, Earl Warren and Allen Dulles) would politically undercut that hope. SWHT CERTAINLY MAKES THE CASE THAT THE LONE ASSASSIN THEME UNDERCUT THAT HOPE ALL RIGHT, BUT AS YOU KNOW I PRESENT THAT AS BEGINNING AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT, IN ORDER TO AVOID A POLITICAL CRISIS AND ALSO TO AVOID AN INVESTIGATION THAT WOULD LIKELY HAVE IMPLICATED AMERICAN INTELLIGENCE OFFICERS IN THE CONSPIRACY AS WELL AS SURFACED A GREAT MANY ONGOING INTELLIGENCE OPERATIONS. BUT THAT'S THAT'S ALL IN THE BOOK. SO I'LL STOP HERE. -- LARRY

Paul, I think you have made it clear over time who you picture as the villains and as I've said, I have no wish to argue or debate anyone's personal view of the conspiracy. My most concrete view of the origins and nature of the conspiracy is in NEXUS - so I've made my view of the villains clear as well. At this point I'm perfectly content to let everyone draw their own conclusions. There's no need to keep covering the same ground repeatedly so I will leave the thread to you. I'm always happy to respond to specific questions, especially about what's in my books and if anyone wishes personal opinions they can always email me.... -- Regards, Larry

MORE COMMENTS BELOW PAUL, IN CAPS TO STAND OUT - FIRST OFF THOUGH, LET ME STRESS THE POINT AGAIN THAT SIMPLY BECAUSE SOMEONE HEARD THE GOSSIP ABOUT OSWALD AND/OR A PLOT AGAINST KENNEDY DOESN'T PUT THEM IN THE OPERATIONAL LOOP FOR DALLAS. LOTS OF OTHER CONSIDERATIONS THERE. THERE REMARKS MAY PROVIDE CLUES BUT ONLY TO THE DEPTH OF THE DETAIL THEY THEMSELVES PROVIDE - THAT IS WHY THE REMARKS FROM THE PARROT JUNGLE ARE SO HELPFUL AS THEY NOT ONLY SHOW A GREAT DEAL OF KNOWLEDGE OF OSWALD BUT ACTUALLY ABOUT HIS MOVEMENTS ONLY WEEKS BEFORE THE SHOOTING....AND THEY ARE ACTUALLY IN AN FBI RECORD AND VERIFIED BY THIRD PARTY CO-WORKERS. NORMALLY THAT'S THE BASIC CUT I USE FOR REALLY BEING INTERESTED IN A LEAD/SOURCE. Larry, thanks for your detailed reply. Here's my feedback: (1) When I say Oswald had “accomplices” I mean it ironically Oswald knew the people who were making him into a patsy, but obviously he didn’t know he was being made into a patsy. Still, Oswald knew them. OK, LETS JUST GO WITH CONTACTS, THAT'S PRETTY DESCRIPTIVE AND IMPLIES NOTHING OPERATIONAL. THE REASON THE NEW ORLEANS CONTACTS NAGELL NOTES ARE PARTICULARLY GOOD IS THAT WE CAN ACTUALLY TIE THEM TO A SEPTEMBER PLOT IN DC BASED ON OSWALD'S OWN LETTERS, THAT'S STRONG STUFF. SO THOSE CONTACTS ARE REAL OPERATIONAL GUYS TRYING TO ASSASSINATE JFK AS EARLY AS LATE AUGUST. THEY COME OUT OF MIAMI TO NEW ORLEANS. Oswald failed to see the vast extent of the conspiracy – and how many of his associates in New Orleans were involved. Harry Dean names three central figures: Ex-General Edwin Walker (whom Oswald perhaps never met but tried to kill), Loran Hall and Larry Howard (who arguably drove Oswald to Silvia Odio's door). Others include David Ferrie, Clay Shaw, Guy Bannister, Carlos Bringuier, Carlos Quiroga, Ed Butler, Gerry Patrick Hemming, Jack Ruby and perhaps some trusted members of DRE and Interpen. (Most of these people had been gun runners and suppliers for Cuba’s revolution and counter-revolution. Harry Dean falls into this same category, which fact supports his account.) I WOULD NOT AGREE, A NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN NO - LIKE QUIROGA - KNEW THAT THERE WAS MORE TO OSWALD THAN HIS ANTI-CASTRO IMAGE. THAT WAS VERY DANGEROUS FOR BOTH THE FBI AND THE CIA BUT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE OPERATIONAL PLOT - I DO AGREE DOZENS OF PEOPLE KNEW ENOUGH TO CONSIDER HIM AS A PATSY BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN OPERATIONAL INVOLVEMENT IN DALLAS. OTHER THAN RUBY I WOULD NOT SIGN UP TO ANY OF THE NAMES YOU LIST AS OPERATIONAL FOR DALLAS (2) Oswald was unknowingly involved in the JFK shooting. He realized far too late that he had been made their patsy. He might have survived his fate if only he had blurted out their names to the News Media when he had the chance – yet even then he behaved as though he still had a chance of obtaining “legal assistance.” I'D AGREE ON THAT POINT...THE INTERESTING QUESTION IS IF HE ACTUALLY KNEW ANY NAMES TO BLURT OUT...REAL NAMES THAT IS....THE ONLY QUESTION IN MY MIND IS WHETHER OR NOT HE HAD PERSONALLY MET RUBY AND SEALED HIS FATE BY NOT POINTING HIM OUT IN THE PRESS CONFERENCE (3) Yes, the FBI treated Oswald as a potential informant after he returned from the USSR. He was perhaps an “informal” source of information who received small sums from the local FBI (as described by Wes Swearingen). Everything changed when FBI Agents had to conform to Hoover’s dictum that Oswald must be the "Lone Assassin." AGREED (4) It seems to me, however, that Oswald was openly Anti-Castro to those who knew him well -- i.e. the conspirators. These right-wing insiders knew this by Oswald's visible relationship to Shaw, Ferrie and Banister, who were fairly well-known. Ed Butler and Carlos Bringuier played along with Bannister's fake FPCC scenario and organized a media campaign around it in August 1963. I WOULD SAY YES AND NO ON THIS, SOME FOLKS IN NO WERE AWARE HE WAS FAKING, OTHERS MAY HAVE BEEN MISLED OR JUST PLAIN CONFUSED. WHAT WE DO KNOW FROM MARTINO IS THAT THE ONLY I IMPORTANT OPERATIONAL PEOPLE THERE, HIS TWO CUBAN EXILE CONTACTS KNEW THAT OSWALD WAS NOT TRULY ANTI CASTRO AND ALSO THAT HE WAS PROVIDING INFO TO THE FBI OR AT LEAST SOME INTEL AGENCY Anti-Castro types made a deal with Oswald through Shaw and Bannister in which Oswald would present himself as Pro-Castro. This is when confusion arose within the Cuban Exile community; Oswald got a street reputation of being a double-agent or a secret Communist (as Silvia Odio’s relatives had warned her about Oswald). Thus pro-Castro posers and perhaps some pro-Castro types would later be fooled by Oswald's charade. NO PROOF OR EVEN LEADS TO SUGGEST THE DEAL WAS THOUGH BANNISTER AT ALL, ACCORDING TO ALL REPORTS THE TWO MEN IN QUESTION WERE NOT FROM NO, PICKED UP ON OSWALD FROM INFO PASSED TO MIAMI AN APPROACHED HIM COLD...THEY WERE UNKNOWN TO THE PEOPLE IN NO WHO ACTUALLY DID SUSPECT THEM OF BEING CASTRO AGENTS (5) It seems to me (based partly on Harry Dean's memoirs) that Bannister's “sheep-dipping” program was ordered and directed by Ex-General Edwin Walker. I say Walker sought revenge for Oswald's shooting at him back in April 1963. Walker and Bannister were Minutemen pals – so this was the most secret pact of all. Even the DRE and Interpen might have been ignorant of this pact, IMHO. COOPERATION FROM BANNISTER WOULD HAVE COME FROM FBI AND POSSIBLY CIA CONTACTS; BANNISTERS OFFICERS HAD EARLIER BEEN CHECKED OUT AS A FRONT PRIOR TO THE BOP AND CIA HAD WORKED WITH BOTH HE AND INCA ON ANTI CASTRO PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES. OSWALD WAS SIMPLY VETTED BY THOSE TYPES OF PEOPLE AND BANNISTER TOLD HIS OWN FOLKS JUST TO LET HIM ALONE AND NOT HASSLE HIM...THAT WAS THE EXTENT OF IT (6) We agree that the key problem with the Odio Incident is that it conflicted directly with J. Edgar Hoover’s demand that Lee Oswald must be the “Lone Assassin.” Arlen Specter would do anything to force all evidence into the “Lone Assassin” theory, even hiding or destroying evidence if necessary. I suspect, however, that Specter’s motivation was purely sycophantic and ambitious. AGREED, ON BOTH POINTS (7) Not only did Hoover document his conclusions by December, but even as early as 29 November 1963, Hoover’s phone call to LBJ already set out the main details of the “Lone Assassin” theory – which remained intact for the remainder of the Warren Commission Hearings. THE LONE ASSASSIN SCENARIO WAS ESTABLISHED AS EARLY AS NOV. 24 IN A NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL MEETING. HOOVER WAS GIVEN HIS MARCHING ORDERS BY LBJ AND ACTUALLY OBJECTED TO THEM BRIEFLY WHEN THE FBI REPORT WAS DONE, ASKING IF HE COULD LEAVE SUGGESTIONS OF A CUBAN CONSPIRACY IN IT...HOOVER IGNORED HIM, AS HE USUALLY DID. (8) I agree with you, Larry, that FBI reports about the DRE are missing because Oswald was probably a major topic of discussion among the DRE, and Hoover could never afford to make that public. PROBABLY MORE OF A PROBLEM FOR THE CIA THOUGH BECAUSE PURSUING IT WOULD HAVE EXPOSED A WHOLE HOST OF PROGRAMS INCLUDING SOME STUDENT PROGRAMS AND SOME JOINT FBI AND CIA PROGRAMS SUCH AS AMSANTA (9) Regarding Hall, Howard and Bannister – and also Hemming – if I can place them together at any point in 1963, I feel justified in naming them all as core conspirators. Hemming told Weberman that he himself offered Oswald double the market price for his rifle if Oswald would bring it to the TSBD on 22 November 1963 – thus Hemming confessed to being a conspirator. MY SUSPICION IS THAT HEMMING WAS AWARE OF A PLOT AND MAY HAVE BEEN APPROACHED; HE TOLD TWYMAN HE WAS ON THE TRAIN EARLY BUT GOT OFF. HE MAY SIMPLY HAVE REFERRED HARGRAVES. I DON'T THINK ANYBODY OF A PROFESSIONAL NATURE - LIKE SAY RIP ROBERTSON OR TONY SOFORZA WOULD HAVE TRUSTED THE REST OF THE LOT AS FAR AS THEY COULD THROW THEM (10) My theory affirms your suspicion that the mainstream right-wing found Oswald on their radar specifically because of the “sheep dipping” farce accomplished by the individuals I named above in New Orleans during the summer of 1963. Harry Dean’s memoirs suggest exactly the same scenario. It was the media events in New Orleans featuring Lee Harvey Oswald as an outspoken and courageous officer of the FPCC that caught the attention of the John Birch Society in San Marino, California. I CAN'T ARGUE THAT IT DIDN'T DRAW ATTENTION, AGAIN MY PERSONAL AND SUBJECTIVE OPINION IS THAT WALKER BY 1963 HAD PERSONAL AND OTHER PROBLEMS TO THE EXTENT HE COULD NOT HAVE ORGANIZED HIS WAY OUT OF A PAPER SACK...JUST MY OWN ASSESSMENT OF COURSE. IMHO, however, even Harry Dean did not realize at that time that Ex-General Edwin Walker had previously planned with Guy Bannister to “sheep-dip” Oswald as early as Easter Sunday, 1963 – the very date that Walker learned from some government official that Lee Harvey Oswald was a suspect in his April shooting (according to Walker's personal papers). Days later, David Ferrie would invite Oswald to New Orleans for a "special task," IMHO. That's when Oswald moved. WHATEVER HAPPENED AT WALKERS IS STILL AN OPEN QUESTION TO ME OTHER THAN THAT SOMEBODY STAGED IT....TO ENHANCE WALKER'S IMAGE AND RAISE SOME MONEY (11) To link the New Orleans “sheep dip” to the JFK murder in Dallas, I would name five suspects: (i) Ex-General Edwin Walker; (ii) mercenary Gerry Patrick Hemming; (iii) mercenary Larry Howard; (iv) mercenary Loran Hall; and (v) DRE leader Carlos Bringuier. All five moved freely between New Orleans and Dallas. OSWALD'S ACTIVITIES IN NEW ORLEANS SET UP THE CONTEXT FOR HIM AS A PATSY, THE NEXT STEP AND THE ONE NECESSARY TO CHART THE OPERATIONAL PATH WAS IN MEXICO CITY AND HAD TO INVOLVE PERSONNEL FAMILIAR WITH THE CI ACTIVITIES AND TECHNICAL CAPABILITIES OF THE COUNTER INTELLIGENCE SET UP THERE.. I see how you connect the dots, Larry. I think that these extra connections that Harry Dean and I offer will harmonize fairly well with your own connections. Please tell me if you think I’ve missed something major. HONESTLY I THINK WHAT YOU ARE MISSING PAUL IS THAT DALLAS WAS ORGANIZED BY TRUE INTELLIGENCE AND PARAMILITARY PROFESSIONALS WITH INSIDE INFORMATION ABOUT OSWALD AND WITH CONNECTIONS TO JACK RUBY FOR LOCAL FIELD SUPPORT....AND THOSE CONNECTIONS GO DIRECTLY BACK TO JOHN ROSELLI

Paul, I will provide responses below but lets start in a bit of a reverse order, my comments will be in caps. Harry Dean has been saying since 1965 that Lee Harvey Oswald had accomplices, and he has provided the names of those accomplices he knew about. By connecting Lee Harvey Oswald to the DRE in this way, you are, Larry, without even trying, linking Lee Harvey Oswald to the same personnel cited in Harry Dean’s memoirs, and thus your findings and the memoirs of Harry Dean agree once again. GIVEN THAT I DON'T SEE LEE OSWALD AS KNOWINGLY INVOLVED IN THE SHOOTING OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY, I WOULD REJECT THE USE OF "ACCOMPLICES" EVEN IF YOU PROVIDED SOLID PROOF THAT OSWALD WAS IN THE COMPANY OF INDIVIDUALS NAMED BY HARRY. STATING THAT DRE MEMBERS WERE AWARE OF LEE OSWALD AND HIS APPARENT PRO-CASTRO ACTIVITIES IN NO IN NO WAY ASSOCIATES OSWALD DIRECTLY IN ANY CONSPIRACY, OTHER THAN THE POSSIBILITY THAT HE WAS SET UP AS A PATSY. OF COURSE THERE IS EVERY REASON TO PRESUME THAT RIGHT WING, ANTI-CASTRO INDIVIDUALS IN NEW ORLEANS AND MIAMI - GIVEN THE KNOWN GOSSIP FACTOR OF THE ANTI-CASTRO "COMMUNITY", NO SURPRISE. AS I DEMONSTRATE IN THE BOOK, A BROAD SOCIAL NETWORK OF PEOPLE WERE WERE AWARE OF OSWALD GIVEN HIS MEDIA VISIBILITY THAT SUMMER. KNOWING HIS NAME AND HAVING HIM AS AN ACCOMPLICE IN A PLOT IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT THING. You suggest that the Odio incident illustrates some of the methods the FBI used to forge an image of Oswald as an “loose cannon”. You also associate Oswald with individuals from Cuba – either pro-Castro or anti-Castro, or (like Harry Dean) first pro-Castro and later anti-Castro. ACTUALLY MY REFERENCE TO POSITIONING OSWALD AS A LOOSE CANNON HAS NO RELATIONSHIP AT ALL TO ANY FBI ACTIVITIES. IF ANYTHING THE FBI TREATED OSWALD AS A POTENTIAL INFORMANT, FROM THE FIRST INTERVIEW IN TEXAS AFTER HIS RETURN FROM RUSSIA WHEN HE VOLUNTEERED TO ADVISE THEM IF HE WAS CONTACTED BY ANYONE WHO MIGHT BE A SOVIET AGENT. THE BUREAU'S INTERNAL DOCUMENTS ON OSWALD PRIOR TO THE ASSASSINATION ARE ALL VERY FOCUSED AND HAVE VIRTUALLY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FBI REPORT PREPARED AFTER THE ASSASSINATION WHICH WAS PREPARED VERY SPECIFICALLY TO DOCUMENT HIM AS THE SOLE ASSASSIN. AS TO THE CUBANS WHO FIRST CONTACTED OSWALD IN NO, THEY WERE ANTI-CASTRO CUBANS PRESENTING THEMSELVES AS CASTRO AGENTS...THAT SIMPLE Gaeton Fonzi presented a similar portrait (The Last Investigation, 1993) when he delved into the Cuban connection with regard to Lee Harvey Oswald. You both see in Odio's case the lengths to which the FBI was willing to go to avoid any evidence that Oswald had accomplices, and to protect their sources and their own activities. I WOULD AGREE ON THAT, AFTER THE FBI HAD BEEN DIRECTED TO CREATE A REPORT ON OSWALD AS THE SOLE ASSASSIN, THERE WAS LITTLE INTEREST AND SOME CAREER RISK IN GOING OFF ON ANY TANGENTS. VARIOUS FBI AGENTS HAVE EXPRESSED THE FACT THAT WAS PRETTY CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD AND THAT'S NOT JUST A MATTER OF THIS CASE. FBI AGENTS AND IN PARTICULAR SAIC'S WERE QUITE SENSITIVE TO OVERALL GUIDANCE FROM THE DIRECTOR. Your book, Larry, portrays the FBI report to the Warren Commission as a deliberate deception. The FBI reported that Silvia Odio had simply mistaken William Seymour for Lee Harvey Oswald on her doorstep during the final week of September, 1963. Actually, the FBI knew that Seymour, Howard and later Loran Hall had all denied the claim, and the alibis of Seymour and Howard were verified. CERTAINLY INTERNAL FBI REPORTS DID CONFLICT WITH HOOVER'S RESPONSE TO THE WC ON THE ODIO ISSUE. I'M NOT I RECALL THE EXACT TIME LINES AND WHETHER ALL THE INTERNAL INQUIRY WAS DONE BEFORE HE GAVE HIS ANSWER; I THOUGHT NOT. IN ANY EVENT HE DIDN'T GO BACK AND CHANGE IT SO PRAGMATICALLY I WOULD AGREE. IT WOULD NOT BE THE ONLY INSTANCE IN WHICH INTERNALLY HELD FBI TESTS OR INQUIRIES WERE IN CONFLICT WITH THEIR OWN REPORT OR WITH THE WCR. OF COURSE THE SAME THING CAN BE SAID ABOUT WC STAFF THEMSELVES; ARLAN S. KNEW THE BALLISTICS PANEL REPORT ON CE399 WOULD BE IN CONFLICT WITH THE WCR SHOOTING SCENARIO - HE DOESN'T SEEM TO HAVE RAISED THAT AS AN OBJECTION EITHER. THERE WAS A LOT OF THAT GOING ON. Further, FBI files reported that both Silvia and Annie Odio failed to identify Hall, Howard or Seymour as their visitors. Other FBI records showed that Hall and Howard arrived in Dallas around October 3, staying a few days; and that Hall and Seymour arrived in Dallas on October 17 and were arrested on drugs charges. The FBI withheld all this from the Warren Commission. YEP Finally, as we saw yesterday, Loran Hall had also been retained for questioning regarding the JFK assassination in late November 1963, about redeeming the rifle of Gerry Patrick Hemming pawned to Richard Hathcock and Roy Payne during September 1963. This was also withheld from the Warren Commission. YEP, AS YOU MENTIONED ABOVE, NOBODY WAS TAKING ANY PAINS TO OPEN DOORS AT THAT POINT IN TIME.... Then, Larry, you introduce another figure, Carlos Quiroga from New Orleans. An associate of Carlos Bringuier and the DRE, this Quiroga was known for his claims that Lee (Leon) Oswald was a US-hating Communist, and that Quiroga tried to infiltrate Oswald's FPCC chapter in New Orleans, posing as a Castro supporter. Still, the FBI omits any record of interviews with Quiroga after the JFK murder, even though he might have supported the FBI case that Oswald was a Communist lunatic. AGREED AND VERY CONSISTENT, THE BUREAU HAD BEEN ASSIGNED TO WRITE A REPORT ABOUT LEE OSWALD ALONE AND THAT IS WHAT THEY DID. THEY PROVIDED THEIR REPORT TO THE WC AND THEY ALSO PROVIDED TESTIMONY ON VARIOUS ITEMS OF EVIDENCE AND RESPONDED TO WC INQUIRIES IF AND ONLY IF REQUESTED. THEIR CONCLUSIONS WERE REACHED AND DOCUMENTED AND SIGNED BY THE DIRECTOR WITHIN A MONTH, BEFORE THE WC REALLY EVEN GOT UNDERWAY. Jim Garrison in 1967 did interview Quiroga at length, and linked Lee Oswald with Guy Banister through Quiroga, the DRE and Carlos Bringuier. For this exploration, Jim Garrison was energetically opposed by both the FBI and the CIA. In its own files on Guy Bannister, the CIA linked him with a project code-named QK/ENCHANT from 1960, which involved both Clay Shaw and E. Howard Hunt. GARRISON'S INVESTIGATION WAS OPPOSED FOR A GREAT NUMBER OF REASONS, DIFFERENT REASONS TO EVEN THE FBI AND CIA. THOSE REASONS HAD TO DO WITH CIA DOMESTIC OPERATIONS, FBI SUBVERSIVE OPERATIONS AND KNOWLEDGE OF LEE OSWALD TO BOTH AGENCIES. It is well known that Oswald wrote a letter to the FPCC on August 4, 1963, telling them about his street brawl with Cuban Exiles over the status of Castro’s Cuba, and that the police became involved. It is also well-known that this letter was mailed five full days before this event actually took place near Canal Street and was reported by New Orleans police. ALL OF WHICH HAS TO DO WITH OSWALD'S INITIAL ROLE IN DOMESTIC SUBVERSIVE INVESTIGATIONS AND EVOLVING ROLE IN COUNTER FPCC PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES...NOT SURE WHERE YOU ARE GOING WITH THAT. Then, Larry, you add a new wrinkle; actually Carlos Quiroga delivered these FPCC leaflets to Oswald before the street brawl. This batch of the FPCC leaflets was stamped with the 544 Camp Street address, and was paid for in receipts traceable to the CIA. DITTO Quiroga and Bringuier both lied to investigators; actually Quiroga visited Oswald before the street brawl, and not afterwards. Also, Oswald's landlady saw Quiroga arrive with a stack of FPCC leaflets, 5 or 6 inches thick; not “one or two leaflets” as Quiroga claimed. DITTO Like David Ferrie, Quiroga was a friend of Sergio Arcacha-Smith and his CRC during the period when many Cubans (and Americans like Harry Dean) supported Fidel Castro before turning against him. The CIA, reports Larry Hancock, evaluated Quiroga as a possible CIA asset. Quiroga was passed over, however, because he was gay (and considered more prone to blackmail in those days) and he made too many anti-USA statements. DITTO You suggest, Larry, that Quiroga gave the CIA much inside information about the Garrison case while he was a witness for Garrison. Quiroga also led Garrison astray, so Garrison forced Quiroga to take a lie-detector test. That test showed that Quiroga often lied about Oswald, Oswald's accomplices and some sort of a conspiracy. I SUSPECT QUIROGA KNEW QUITE WELL THAT OSWALD WAS IN CONTACT WITH INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE NOT CASTRO AGENTS AND MUS-REPRESENTING THEMSELVES AS SUCH The lie-detector test also demonstrated that Carlos Quiroga knew Lee Harvey Oswald quite well, and that Oswald was involved somehow in some sort of an anti-Castro operation. Quiroga also knew about the ‘heavy-set Mexican’ often seen with Oswald. DITTO You also suggest, Larry, that “a considerable number” of reports about the DRE during the summer and autumn of 1963 that mention Oswald in New Orleans “are either missing or unreleased.” YEP, BECAUSE I SUSPECT OSWALD WAS MORE WIDELY DISCUSSED THAN ANYONE WANTED TO MENTION AFTER THE ASSASSINATION. ON A RELATED POINT, ITS ALSO RELEVANT THAT A GOOD DEAL OF WHAT WAS GOING ON WOULD PROBABLY HAVE BEEN VIEWED A VIOLATION OF THE CIA'S DOMESTIC LIMITATIONS AND WOULD HAVE LED TO QUESTIONS ABOUT A LOT OF OTHER OPERATIONS THAT IT WOULD NOT HAVE ENJOYED HAVING EXPOSED. I myself see connections of this material with the memoirs of Harry Dean. Firstly, that ‘heavy set Mexican’ is most likely Larry Howard, the frequent companion of Loran Hall. Secondly, Loran Hall is a significant player in New Orleans training camps for Cuban raids, such as the one in Lake Pontchartrain which was organized by Guy Bannister and David Ferrie. I THINK YOU NEED TO TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT THE TIMELINE AND NATURE OF THOSE VARIOUS "CAMPS" ...WHICH VARIES GREATLY FROM LATE 1960-63. A LOT IS SAID ABOUT THE VARIOUS CAMPS AND I FOUND MUCH OF IT WRONG OR VERY SUPERFICIAL. Thirdly, Gerry Patrick Hemming and his Interpen mercenaries were occasionally seen at Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana, just as they were occasionally seen at Ex-General Walker’s home in Dallas, Texas. Fourth, Carlos Bringuier was known to make political speeches for the DRE at events that included Ex-General Walker and segregationist Reverend Billy James Hargis. (Walker admitted to the Warren Commission that he made a cash donation to the DRE). THERE IS LITTLE DOUBT THAT HEMMING AND HOWARD IN PARTICULAR TRAVELED THE FUND RAISING CIRCUIT FROM MIAMI TO DALLAS TO LA. HALL IS A DIFFERENT STORY, NOT TRUSTED BY MANY AND IF I RECALL EVEN FORCED TO TAKE A POLYGRAPH BEFORE BEING ALLOWED TO SPEAK TO CERTAIN RIGHT WING GROUPS IN CALIFORNIA. ONE OF THE POINTS I BRING UP IN ODIO REVISITED IS THAT IT SEEMS POSSIBLE TO ME THAT HEMMING ET AL MAY HAVE TAKEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO GET HALL OFF THEIR BACKS AND OUT OF COMPETING FOR FUNDS (HEMMING CLEARLY WANTED HALL TO QUIT ASKING "HIS PEOPLE" FOR MONEY) BY SETTING HIM UP AS A SUSPECT IN THE ASSASSINATION. MY POINT REMAINS THAT I WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED IF INDIVIDUALS ON THAT RIGHT WINK, ANTI-CASTRO CIRCUIT HAD HEARD OF OSWALD BASED ON HIS PROMINENCE IN NEW ORLEANS. MAKING THAT PART OF THE ACTUAL ATTACK IN DALLAS IS ANOTHER STORY ENTIRELY. HAVING SAID THAT, I WOULD BE REMISS NOT TO SAY THAT I DO DISCUSS THE POSSIBILITY THAT CERTAIN OF HEMMING'S EARLIER ASSOCIATES SUCH AS ROY HARGRAVES WERE INDEED INVOLVED IN DALLAS. HAVING READ SWHT YOU ARE AWARE OF HOW I CONNECT THE DOTS TO MAKE THAT CASE.

For those who asked, the Kindle version is now available at the following link: http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Warfare-History-Americas-Undeclared-ebook/dp/B00H6UOCS8/ref=la_B004FOXTAK_1_4_title_0_main?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1395714800&sr=1-4 I thought it best to do this here since the other thread was going off in different directions... Larry

No John, our focus is pretty tightly on covert military action. We do stray into some instances of political action but usually as that relates to surrogates and their own agendas. For its size SW is a very tightly focused work. ...the editors (four of them) were vicious..grin. My impression is that British intelligence was far more sophisticated in political action, spy work and areas of classic intelligence. I suspect the remark quoted has to do with intelligence collection, spy work and in particular counter intelligence. The sort of tradecraft one sees in the British operations against German intelligence is amazing. The first post War American covert ops specialists brought in a mix of WWII military experience, OSS field experience in Asia and American commercial business practice. The first place that really jelled was in the Burma triangle/Yunnan invasions authorized by Eisenhower. There the CIA folks profited heavily from the experience of OSS types who stayed behind in Burma and Thailand after wartime service there. And as you know, a number of the commercial covers from that region became fundamental CIA resources for the next two decades, some becoming proprietaries but others simply affiliated and vetted as service organizations for the Agency. --Larry

Giving a brief summary of Shadow Warfare has proved really challenging for me given its breadth - but I'll give it a try. If anyone would like to read the introduction it is on the Mary Ferrell site: http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Featured_Shadow_Warfare_Coming The book operates on four distinct levels. Fundamentally it is a tutorial on the statecraft of covert action, not spy trade-craft but the practices and resources used for deniable action and surrogate warfare. To do that we begin with one of seminal projects, conducted years before the CIA was established. That deniable activity, under FDR, was intended to establish a Chinese bombing mission to attack Japan and divert it from the southern expansion which produced WWII. The personnel for the bomber group were departing San Francisco at the time Pearl Harbor was attacked. Many of the names from that project turn up again in CIA operations from Guatemala to Cuba. As the book proceeds we study the personnel and practices in virtually every major CIA covert operation from Guatemala through Tibet to Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, the Congo, Angola, the Southern Cone, Nicaragua, Angola, Chad, and on to Afghanistan. The next level explores the evolution of covert action through the Cold War, and on though the war on terror up to 2013. That involves a study of the melding in of special operations, of combined intelligence/military assistance activities and the study of both infrastructure warfare (Phoenix and Condor) and counter-insurgency practices. As we discuss that evolution we trace the changes in personnel, discussing CIA paramilitaries, military detailees and eventually the incorporation of commercial contract personnel - as distinct from the CIA security services and old school type contract employees. As the decades progress, we turn to the merger of covert action under the National Security Act of 1947 with military special operations and to the melding of covert and conventional which began in the 1980's but truly exploded following the attacks of 2001 and the decisions of the Bush Administration. We refer to this new form of action as "gray warfare" because so many legal issues are blurred between what the national security act and its code support vs. what is allowed under the military UCMJ code. As one of the book reviewers (publishers weekly I think) notes, readers will be "sated" in regard to discussions of the constitutional and legal issues related to covert warfare. In doing that study we also spend time examining the core legal issues of the various covert action projects - including not only familiar issues such as Gary Webb's exposure of the Contra drug traffic and a discussion of the "understanding" with the Justice Department which freed the CIA - if you were into Dark Alliance this should prove really interesting but a number of issues which relate to intelligence and military personnel themselves. Finally, at the highest level, the book is a study of presidents, administrations, and the personalities that made decisions for covert action. It discusses how that happens, the interaction with Congress and goes on at length to examine Congressional attempts at oversight but also to illustrate what amounts to virtual hypocrisy of Congress in regard to covert action - and the apparent willingness of Congress to totally avoid the fundamental issues in contemporary affairs of national security legislation and code passed some 70 years ago.... Well OK, so maybe that wasn't exactly brief but it is some 600 pages long so... Larry

That's fine David but its my understanding the Kindle version should be out shortly in any event; I'll try get a date on that from the publisher. Oh, I should note that its been difficult to get the Amazon product description updated. The book is actually 600 pages in length (606 to be specific) almost 50 pages of end notes...a great number with appropriate source document or article url links.... -- Larry

In a fit of crass merchandising, I just wanted to let everybody know that Shadow Warfare is now shipping though Amazon and in bookstores.. http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Warfare-History-Americas-Undeclared/dp/1619022443/ref=la_B004FOXTAK_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1395339407&sr=1-1 I stand ready to answer questions but somebody has to read it first...grin. Larry

That's an interesting thought Paul, but unless or until l someone conclusively "solves" the murder I'm not sure anyone will give up their favorite suspect - I see the same suspects discussed now that were on the very early lists but what I haven't seen is anyone giving up their favorites. We see that every time a poll is done. Now I've personally eliminated a lot of sources and leads, some I really hated to give up, but I didn't start with a particular villain so I haven't had to make that choice... It would be interesting and educational to see a few volunteer posts from researchers who have given up a particular suspect whom they were very fixed on - and why.

Fair enough Ernie, I have my own issues with many conspiracy theories - far too easy to pick your preferred villain and work backwards. Seems to be the same in political conspiracies as in politics.

As much as I would prefer to avoid it, I'll probably have to at least follow this thread forward. I can only say, if you do have SWHT/2010 and do reread my appendix on Odio Revisited, you will find my assessment going in a far different direction than I anticipate Paul is going to go... If you have the book, you can make your own comparisons and decisions. Otherwise this is merely a disclaimer for anyone who does not have the book. As far as Ernie's more remarks in the thread, my reaction is that he paints with an awfully broad brush in certain of them. As for myself, I set forth my criteria for acceptable evidence in my Preface, readers are at least forewarned. Personally i find the following generic remark a bit offensive: "And, lastly, the adherents of conspiracy theories NEVER apply their declared standard of acceptable evidence TO THEIR OWN WRITINGS!" -- Larry