Larry Hancock

These journalists have been invited to be on a panel at the November JFK Lancer conference in Dallas and based on my initial contact with them I have high hopes that they will present on their experiences and be available for individual questions as well.

It also looks as if we will have the archivist for the Penn Jones papers there and hopefully the archivist for the Weisberg papers as well - as part of a panel on research resources.

Dawn, thanks for sharing the news. J was part of a private email group I operated a number of years back and we spoke many times before meeting in Dallas once. He gave me a fascinating tour that weekend and I think I met Lynn at that time as well. Later I had a chance to introduce him to Madeleine Brown.

I recall seeing him at a distance once at a DP memorial ceremony in latter years and I had known he was heavily involved in the Wallace work. I think the only time he really was visible to the public was in his relatively recent appearance in William Remond's video.

I'm sorry to hear of his passing but glad I had the chance to ride with him when he recreated his race down Elm the afternoon of November 22 - from his surveillance assignment. It was interesting to hear him describe all the problems they had with the DPD comm gear of the time.

I sure wish J had been the first one on the Sixth Floor though! We would have at least know one way or the other about the rifle, Fritz picking up the shells and that darn paper bag.

Not a very good escape plan indeed.... especially when you get into the micro details and find that Bowers 1) observed the train coming back though the yard from the East e.g. downtown, which means the tramps placed themselves on a train with the engine pointed to go back through DP where all the cops in the world would be, 2) Bowers stopped the train because he was looking down from his tower and saw a tramp in an open hopper car - not three tramps hiding in a fake locked freight car (if so then there should have been four tramps taken in) and 3) per Holt once they got in they saw the car contained a good amount of explosives (which might make you think twice about using it for an escape). And of course there are a few other parts of the story such as showing up in DP with a stack of ID to hand out only an hour or so ahead of time... pretty tight schedule... which seem a little questionable.

On the other hand, all this seems to have prevented anybody from doing a real investigation of Holt. His daughter give an extensive amount of detail about her fathers contacts including names and companies at one of our Lancer conferences and in the past 4 years I have seen nobody actually investigate what she produced. She passed on a lot of solid data that could be validated one way or the other (not just cited but investigated) - and none of them have really been pursued because the tramp story gets all the attention instead, it even did a great job of misdirection on Garrison and chewed up resources for him and the HSCA. Sometimes disinformation can be a cover - and like Fonzi points out, you can also defeat investigation by ensuring all the time and money gets spent on false trails. Heck, it might even make sure that nobody spent any time on photos of people in DP seriously except for the tramps....

Why would Holt give out disinformatin and even fool his family.....possibly to protect them and as trade for a retirement package for himself? Forget the tramps, dig into who Holt really worked for and the timing of his information becoming public if you want to judge his story.

-- Larry

I agree with Ron. They were three tramps.  If they were connected to the assassination in any way, the planners of the crime would have to have been idiots and we would have solved this crime a long time ago.  I mean, what kind of an escape plan is "go run out to a train and hope it heads out of town before you're discovered" when you can calmly walk out the back of the TSBD and get in a Rambler or sneak down the back stairs of the Dal-Tex or County records Building?  As much as I've enjoyed reading Weberman's website, his obsession with the tramps has crippled the progress of his research. 

It just amazes me that the same people who blindly accept there were three or more shooter teams, signal men, and radio men in Dealey Plaza, also seem to think these men would try to escape by running off and hiding in a train car.  It's just weak.  It's a single-bullet theory of the conspiracy crowd--it only makes sense because people want it to make sense.  Just because the WC and the Posnerites desperately cling to the idea that Oswald would kill without an escape plan doesn't mean we have to assume the real killers were equally as stupid.  I believe the real killers were smart.  They got away with it didn't they?

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I think we need to be a bit more specific about what Nagell said....

He said that that while in Mexico City, during his involvement in contacts with

both U.S. intelligence (and after threatening to defect and hand over sensitive information to foreign powers ala Oswald in Russia) and Soviet intelligence he was approached by the KGB to do two tasks. One was to monitor an Lee Oswald, someone the KGB knew he had been in contact with in Japan and an individual

they felt that might be in the process of being maneuvered in a manner

that would cause severe embarassment if not worse to the Soviets due to

his prior time in Russia. This was shortly after Oswald's return to the U.S. and

at a time in which we now know he was working on a manuscript which

was extremely critical of the Russian system.

The second task was to establish contact with Cuban exiles whom the

Russians had heard were beginning to discuss plans to attack either JFK or

RFK or both and blame it on Castro (and possibly the Soviets as well).

Nagell followed up on both assignments, spending most of his time

on the exiles. He also did only minor contact and monitoring of Oswald.

However it was not until he went from Florida to New Oreleans in August

of 1963 that the two tasks came together - and there is some reason to

think that Nagell may even have pointed out Oswald to these initial exile

conspirators to help maintain his contact with them, in the same fashion he

had pointed them at Vaughn Marlowe (ex Marine, FPCC member, etc)

in Los Angeles.

Nagell also said the first use of Oswald was going to be in September in

the Washington/Baltimore area.....which tallies directly to a series of letters

Oswald wrote in late August about a move to the northeast and which nobody

has ever explained at all - except Nagell.

Well said Pat, something that many younger folks have a hard time with is that for the OSS guys and the Eastern Establishment/Ivy League of the CIA this wasn't about work and about projects. It was a crusade, good vs. evil (and during the Stalin era in particular I'd probably agree to that). The experience in Eastern Europe after the war gave them the feeling it was a fight for survivial. Besides, networking and 'opinion shaping" were natural for these guys.

If you use Luce and Pawley as an example its plain to see that nobody had to pay them, you just fed them the right information at the right time - heck, read some of the CIA documents on Pawley and you find him bringing info to the agency. There were a host of influential volunteers to fight the red menace. Many of the original backers of the National Security movement were more rabid than the agency people - Pawley and Lindburgh come to mind. There was a whole network of volunteers on the periphery of the agency, even willing to fund dangles and other activities and feed back information.

You will find a good deal about Hendrix in my book and I think he's an excellant example....the Agency targeted him, fed him information that won him awards and made his reputation and he "went with the flow". He made a couple of mistakes including one in Chile, filed the news story before the news happened (always a risk for an inside guy I suppose, you want to jump the competion with the story but somebody slips the schedule on you, how embarassing...grin).

I've read any number of reports where the media refused to confront, challenge or even investigate not only CIA but the military for fear of jeapardizing their sources. Heck, when you are the CIA you don't need money to buy reporters, you use information. And all of them, Wisner, Dulles, Angleton - loved to meed with the press at lovely expense tab lunches.

-- Larry

(was it Wisner that refered to it as playing his Wurlitzer - something like that..

[

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Larry, you understate the case. It was Wisner's "MIGHTY wurlitzer." There have been some good articles written about this over the years. Bernstein wrote one for Rolling Stone. I think you're pretty much right on that these men saw it as their patriotic duty. I just don't picture Ben Bradlee or Joe Alsop cashing checks from one of Tracy Barnes' or Cord Meyer's cut-out companies, do you? The one guy I'd like to know more about is Hal Hendrix. Were his stories CIA plants? Or was he simply given more access than others because of his friendly attitude? I know he gave Seth Kantor info on Oswald long before anyone else had it. I think Hendrix also turned up in Chile around the time Allende was over-thrown. Has the CIA ever admitted to what extent he was working with them, and what extent he was working FOR them?

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Jim, I'm far from understanding exactly what the CIA was doing in this regard.

It's pretty easy to follow that they would have overseas projects to influence public opinion via the press. And that they would have used the media in various regime change or regime preservation operations - plenty of examples of that.

And as John points out, Wisner and company certainly had the contacts and the connections to inflence Eastern and media establishment types who were associated with them - best not to forget that during most of the cold war that wouldn't take anything more than an appeal to patriotism. It's also clear that many of the CIA honchos liked their contacts with the press and their ability to mold opinion (or cover up secrets) via the media (was it Wisner that refered to it as playing his Wurlitzer - something like that..I'm sure John will know. Of course who didn't, look at the Johnson tapes for of that.

One of the big questions from the Church report is whether the Agency was using reporters and writers as sources and informants - both internationally and in the U.S. (as they did with businessmen and scientists in Domestic Ops) or whether they were actually paying them to write articles and generate stories in the

U.S.?

Much of all the rest sounds like general CIA SOP - until you get into the dirty tricks of CHAOS in the 60's and 70's which were orders of magnitude beyond that.

It's the issue of actually paying writers and authors for general stories or books that blows me away - as described in the Phillips post....I just don't follow it at all plus it seems rather unnecessary. Targeted projects, sure, but just paying to have the Russians as the bad guys - seems like a waste of money?

-- Larry

Larry

Where do you think Ian Flemming's 007 would fit into this?  Did the British have a similar program?  What about the Soviets?

Just thoughts.

Jim root

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John and Jeff, although certainly not any sort of proof, I thought the following

excerpt from Shawn Phillips web site in regard to his father (who was David Phillips brother) was rather interesting in this context. Especially keeping in mind that James went on to become a rather famous spy/action novel writer (apparently with no strings attached):

.............

Shawn certainly had an opportunity to learn about personal and artistic integrity first hand from his father. Here is an autobiographical passage from an early work:

"I was a Marine corps officer in War the Deuce, and caught a dasy-clipper in the ankle, on Iwo Shima. While I was convalescing in the Klamath hospital, a civilian stopped by my ward and asked how I would like serving my country even more. I had done some writing before the war, and he showed me how I could resume that pastime, while obstensibly having no connection with the agency [CIA]. All I had to do was thread certain angles into my prose.

Those angles, naturally, were that all my heavies had to be communists or socialists, thick-necked, brutal blunderers and slobs. My heros, naturally again, would be clean-cut, clean-living, boyish Yanks. Always, in time's nick, they would be able to protect democracy fron the stain of alien ideas. I declined."

Paying writers secret bonuses to slip anti-communist propaganda into their fiction and non fiction was a common CIA practice of the time. Imagine the temptation to an injured young man, with no guaranteed future or job.

According to historians of the era, many writers succombed to this temptation. Among them, from internal evidence, are the authors of two series of contemporary spy thrillers the " Assignment--" series, and the Chet Drumm series both would have seemed to have cooperated and taken money to write just that kind of work.

Not Shawn's father.

Twenty years later, when James Atlee Phillips began to write his own spy series to support himself, his heavies were not communist or socialists, who were thick-necked, brutal blunderers and slobs. Nor were his heroes clean-cut, clean-living, boyish Yanks, who, always in time's nick, saved the world and protected democracy fron the stain of alien ideas.

Jim, at the time in question Hemming was a civilian. He had separated from

the Marines before going to Cuba. Over the years he did have other

reserve and other military connections but that was later and I've never

laid it all out on a timeline myself.

If memory serves, during theat general time frame of the L.A. Oswald contact Hemming was also considered as an informant by the CIA and had a provisional security clearance with them - reasonably so as he certainly did key inside information about Castro's new Cuba and personnel in Castro's infrastructure.

There is extensive documentation on his informant activity with both the CIA and FBI in the CIA segregated files. As usual I'd say he was normally one or two steps ahead of either agency though.

Now Hemming does describe a special relationship with James Angleton and

refers to being given military transport to DC via El Toro. However that

would have been a completely separate issue and I'd have to leave it to

Gerry to explain that. I imagine you can get Newman's book through

interlibrary loan and I think it would definitely be worth your while. Beyond that Noel Twyman's book probably has the most in depth interviews with Hemming and I'd recommend that as background as well.

As to any Angleton - Hemming connection, as I say, that's totally beyond my

grasp and I'd be the first to being clueless on that.

I'm not able to contribute anything that would help in the question of Meyer's murder but offer the following observation about Angleton's interest in her diary.

Angleton was a "collector" of very special executive quality dirt, in particular material that could be used for blackmail and other leverage. Perhaps he simply thought of it as "intelligence", certainly he represented it as such. It was well known that he ran his own bugs in D.C. including those on Agency personnel and that he shared anecdotes from the tapes with his boss. He maintained his own private vault and after he was fired the staff assigned to inventory it and reclaim material into the regular files were amazed at the contents, much of which apparently had nothing to do with his department or assignment (including a set of RFK autopsy photos).

Angleton also did his own black bag jobs, reportingly including ones on the French Embassy in D.C. in 1963.

So we find Angleton collecting Meyer's diary, Mann's safe contents and manuscript and RFK's autopsy photos. And having the autonomy to do so and very possibly collect it into his own private archive - perhaps only to be shared with Richard Helms? Or to be used to leverage further "collections". One thing is certain - nobody ever seems to have questioned James Angleton, he pretty much did what he wanted. Perhaps his collection explains that. Perhaps it also explains why he (and CI/SIG) were allowed to know about and insert themselves into virtually any plan or project on a non-compartimentilized level, the only part of the Agency to have such reach.

The question then is whether Angleton's collection of Meyer's diary is signficant to the JFK conspiracy or merely SOP for Angleton.

Gary, that's a very good point. NSA intercepts pretty much define sources and methods - and of course would essentially give away further intel of that sort. The NSA has given more push back than any other agency even on JFK era intercepts.

Can anyone else cite actual released NSA intercepts - especially in the last decade and relating to currently active aras like Saudi oil?

If Posner is really writing from NSA intercepts - it brings up a major question on whose agenda is at work here. His footnotes ought to be most educational!

-- Larry

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/thenewswire/...aims-sau_1.html

"based on National Security Agency electronic intercepts"

My that Posner sure has good intelligence connections!

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Ryan, there is a bit of description in Newman's book...I get the impression

Hemming wanted to find out a whole lot more about Oswald, and why

it seemed like Oswald knew something about Hemming when they first met.

I can imagine that might not be a quick discussion, especially given

Oswald's skills at not answering questions. You can also speculate there

might have been more talk about Cuba and Castro since Hemming was

just back from there.

Gerry may post something more about it if he sees this thread but there's

not much more detail about the actual discussion at the gate....Hemming does

say he had other things to do at El Toro including catching a military flight

out.

Jim, you and anyone else interested in this thread, should really read Newman's Chapter 7 on Oswald's "Early Cuban Connections". Newman correlates Delgados statements with a great deal of Hemming interview material and CIA documents on Hemming.

Hemming definitely states that he met Oswald at the Cuban Embassy in L.A., that he regarded him as penetrator for Naval Intelligence, trying to insert himself with the new Castro personnel. He also began to suspect that Oswald might have been specifically targeted on him as well.

Newman also quotes his interview with Hemming in which Hemming very specifically describes going out to meet Oswald at El Torro - that is on page 105 of Newman's book. Hemming was confronting Oswald over their encounter at the embassy.

Jim, that's a great question. I don't know that the FBI went as far as to maintain

list of all correspondants to target groups such as SWP; I suspect they did indeed maintain master lists of actual members and officers. I do have a document that specifically says anyone who was an officer or politically active (including in demonstrations) in any of the target subversive groups had to be placed on the master watch list (Hoover's pick up and intern in case of hostilities list). Actually according to that FBI reg. Oswald should have been held on the formal watch list after his actions in New Orleans but that's antother story.

The opening of mail to him was triggered by different factors after his return from Russia. One being his incoming mail from overseas/Russia and the other being his having been placed on a watch list during his time in Russia while he was sending mail back to the U.S. However beyond that its obvious that the FBI was continuing to have their postal office informants monitor not only his mail (which doesn't mean opening it but does mean surveillance on source and destination as well as moves). Newman documents that at length and I have an FBI document that shows they were doing the same with Robert Oswald in 1963 as far as monitoring one of his changes in residence.

I wish we could answer your question one way or the other but I suspect that

Oswald did not come onto the FBI radar that early. However it might be worthwhile checking some of the magazine subscriptions he held as a Marine because that would be a very good place for him to come under ONI and FBI monitoring at the same time.

-- Larry

John

Try the testimony of Nelson Delgado, Oswalds Marine buddy and that of Agent Hosty.  Most telling is the recorded interview of Oswald in New Orleans where, I believe, he discribes how he first started reading socialist material as a young boy.  Also his letter to the Socialist Workers Party (a recent post of mine) gives his own account of the fact that he had been studying Marxist thought for months and was desirous of learning more.

Larry

What thoughts do you have on when Oswald's mail was first being opened.  I have suggested that it may have began with his letter to the Socialist Workers Party (within weeks of his seventeeth birthday and his enlistment in the Marines).

Was this the begining of his life as a "patsy?"

Jim Root

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John, lots of sources on this, I'd certainly suggest you read John Newman's

book which tackles it in detail. I've presented before on the problems Oswald

had with his mail in Dallas.....his receipt of the mailed material was one of the

things that was monitored by the FBI. Indeed his mail was opened as part

of the FBI intercept program on incoming overseas mail and Oswald filed a protest

to the Post Office department in NYC about it. That doesn't seem to have made much difference toall the postal inspectors (T-1, T-2 who were also FBI sources) in his mail chain). There is no doubt that he ordered and received this sort of mail.

I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone do a detailed study of the extent

to which he actually read it or discussed it.

Jeff, William has clarified the source and high level differences in the books in a separate post.

I confess that I need to reread the new Estes book and ask some questions before I fully understand where Billy Sol stands on the tapes. He speaks of having sold off some tapes to Hoffa and it is unclear to me exactly what he might still have in his possession. However he also states that there are still unnamed participants in Texas who are a threat to him, makes it clear that he has not and will not name all names and certainly presents that there is still some fear of retribution if he does more. I see no sign that he is going to provide any tapes to validate the story. Perhaps as importantly, he refutes his statement to the Justice Department that Kyle Brown was in a meeting with Carter and can corroborate the JFK information from Carter. Estes says that the real person will remain unnamed. This seems to be in direct conflict with Brown's statements in William's videotape. Again, all this continues to cast down on rather than lead to any corroboration for Carter or Wallace's statements to Estes. I hope that we can get some further clarification from Billy Sol himself.

As to Carter's work back in Texas, supposedly (and per his oral history at the LBJ library) he moved back to Texas to either begin campaign preparations for the 1964 election with Johnson on the ticket as VP (a bit hard to swallow) or perhaps to support a general Democratic slate in Texas (he is not specific). On a side note, Carter did indeed do some advance work for the JFK trip, we know for example that he visited Dallas. However he did not personally participate in the final advance work immediately prior to the visit but seems to have stayed in constant touch with Jack Puterborough (sp) from a distance. That strikes me as a bit odd given Carter's personal touch but then Dallas really was not a Johnson city and Cliff may not have had the personal connections he had in south Texas.

On your VP / November 22 question. It's unclear there was any thought or discussion given to that and knowing Johnson's character I doubt he would have even thought of a VP before he had to recruit one for the 64 campaign.

In regard to Baker, personally I don't see Baker as anything more than a "nexus" that events pertaining to the assassination may have jelled. He was important for bringing certain people in touch with each other as part of his many business dealings and for creating the scandal that put so many of them at risk, but I think that was it.

And yes, Johnson's purported concerns about a Communist conspiracy or about possible war don't seem to have much to do with his actions the afternoon and

evening of November 22 - unless somebody has scrubbed a lot of information out of the historical record. On the other hand it seems to me that there should probably have been more of a defensive response by the Joint Chiefs or by the Sec of Defense than there was. It's rather amazing to me that at the height of the Cold War, the President could be assassinated by parties totally unknown for some two hours and that the Joint Chiefs did not even elevate the DEFCON status.

...good thing it wasn't a Communist conspiracy, Larry

Larry,

Since Mr. Estes no longer has to fear retribution from LBJ for "keeping his mouth shut", has he expressed a willingness to release the taped conversations with Carter in 1971 for verification and corroberation of his story?  William Reymond discussed his French version of Estes story in this forum and indicated that his publisher would probably not be interested publishing the English version.  Perhaps the publisher was concerned about liability in the US courts. 

It would be interesting to find out from Mr. Reymond how he compares the content of his book with the new English version.

I re-read your chapter on the End Game (20) and noted that the Dallas trip was an exception to Carter traveling with LBJ, presumably moved from advance man to work on the 1964 election.  Kennedy was the President not Johnson, and JFK was  planning to dump Johnson in 1964, so whose campaign was Carter working on as Secretary of the Democratic National Committee?  Did Carter know in advance that LBJ would become President after the Dallas trip?  Mr. Carter was certainly busy on the phone and into action early on the cover-up (Calls to DA Wade, the Chief of Police, etc).

When did Hubert Humphrey enter the picture as Vice President?  Or another related question might be who became acting Vice President on November 22?  Was Carter discussing the Vice Presidential slot with candidates before Dallas?  The presidential succession amendment to the constitution was not in effect in 1963.

The last sentence of End Game brings into question where was Bobby Baker in these events, besides being a major potential scandal or indictment for Johnson, similar to wheeler dealer Estes, and the possible complicity of Fred Black who was LBJ's, Hoover's, and Baker's neighbor? 

LBJ's often stated concern for a nuclear war after the assassination seems to me to be very disingenious, especially in light of his failure to inquire about the nuclear football and with the acting members of the JFK/LBJ war cabinet in the immmediate aftermath of the fatefull day.

Jeff Dahlstrom

One of the biggest problems at present is that it is extremely difficult to boil out specifically what details he was told first hand by Carter or Wallace versus his general observations about the JFK assassination - and other conspiracies.  Unfortunately his book also seems to remove the possibility that we can ever get direct corroboration - if I am correct in reading what I think he says about the tapes.  He also states that Kyle Brown was not a personal witness in the meeting with Carter....even though Estes did identify him as a witness to the Justice Department.  This disclaimer is also in direct conflict with Brown's Remond video remarks that he was indeed present in person.

Up to this point I had developed one (unpublished) scenario as to how the bottoms up information in my book would connect to a Johnson/Carter/Wallace scenario.  Estes newest version of the plot pretty well blows away that scenario although his statement of a direct involvement of Marcello/Trafficante opens up other speculation.  Perhaps the more significant issue is that his newer remarks speak to a much broader conspiracy with a much greater number of people involved in Texas and with a direct involvement by two or mor major crime families. 

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William, many thanks for clearing the source up for all of us, that eliminates

one part of the mystery on the new book. It's truly unfortunate that your version is not available in the U.S. in English,. As you say, I'm afraid this turn of events is going to make it harder rather than easier to investigate Johnson's actual involvement.

-- Larry

Few words on this book because i hate to see good researchers as Larry and others wasting their time and energy.

1) The Estes book is not a translation of JFK, le dernier temoin

2) The book is a first draft that Tom Bowden and myself wrote back in 2000. This draft was used by the publisher to shop the project around. It was a failure and one reason was that lot of BSE's claims were not backed by fact and some of them were in direct conflict with others evidences.

I guess, it was Tom and myself position all the time. Back then, we grew more and more unconfortable with Billie's story. Or, may i say, Billie's stories.

And it's one reason why the draft is pretty heavy on Billie's childhood and business deal and pretty light on the JFK assassination.

3) Then, my publisher asked me to do a different book. A book with hard facts and evidences. With less Billie but more JFK. And this time, the rule was pretty simple : each Billie Sol's allegations must be prove right/ So, Tom and myself started a very deep and long investigation on Billie's claim and with a strong emphasis on the Texas mafia. JFK, le dernier temoin and the video documentary were the results of this new investigation.

4) few months ago without asking my publisher, Tom or myself approvals, Billie Sol published the 2000's first draft hoping that our community will buy it thinking that it was a translation of the book or an updated project. It's not. This move will have several consequences. Most of them are none of my business. But let me say that today i'm very sad. Even if Billie printed a very short stack of copies, this move will add another shadow's layer on his credibility and then, on our ability to solve JFK's assassination.

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Jeff, you probably know that Estes recently broke his leg in two places and has some other medical problems. I surely hope he does feel well enough to actively participate in November. I also hope to have the chance to get some further comments from him before the conference so that I can better deal with the new information in his book.

One of the biggest problems at present is that it is extremely difficult to boil out specifically what details he was told first hand by Carter or Wallace versus his general observations about the JFK assassination - and other conspiracies. Unfortunately his book also seems to remove the possibility that we can ever get direct corroboration - if I am correct in reading what I think he says about the tapes. He also states that Kyle Brown was not a personal witness in the meeting with Carter....even though Estes did identify him as a witness to the Justice Department. This disclaimer is also in direct conflict with Brown's Remond video remarks that he was indeed present in person.

Up to this point I had developed one (unpublished) scenario as to how the bottoms up information in my book would connect to a Johnson/Carter/Wallace scenario. Estes newest version of the plot pretty well blows away that scenario although his statement of a direct involvement of Marcello/Trafficante opens up other speculation. Perhaps the more significant issue is that his newer remarks speak to a much broader conspiracy with a much greater number of people involved in Texas and with a direct involvement by two or mor major crime families.

Hopefully by November I'll be in a position to offer a more cogent view but a lot of questions need to be addressed first.

Jeff, I have read Estes new book, most of it at least - it is indeed not an English translation of William's book done with Estes. Not having read William's book I can't really compare the two although I can say that there is certainly a variety of new information in the Estes' book, some of which will be pretty controversial.

The book is also in stock and avaliable through Andy W at the Last Hurrah Bookshop.

I hope to explore some of the material in advance of the November Lancer Conference and present on it there; given that his health permits it we also have a commitment from Billy Sol to be at the conference.

Personally I find his personal insights into the Estes scanda and Marshall murder to be consistent and certainly accurate as compared to the independent information available. However the information he received from Carter and Wallace will elevate the controversy on Johnson's role and support. I also think the book would have profited from a good editor.

Of course beyond the conspiracy elements which are only a part of the book, I'd also say that anything Estes writes about himself is always colorful and highly entertaining.

Larry and John,

Have either of you spoken to any researcher that has seen or read the purported book recently published by Billie Sol Estes himself?  It is shown on http://www.billiesolestes.com/ with a picture of the cover and teasers of the contents.  To order the book you have to pay $30 to an online service, usCommerce, which does not even acknowledge that they have copies for shipment.

Is this unverified book titled, "A Texas Legend: The Man Who Knows Who Shot JFK", which is not listed in "Books In Print" at my local book store or library, perhaps another one of Mr. Estes scams?

Jeff Dahlstrom

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Hi David, if only it was that simple. Actually Sierra's support seems to

have been all over the place. As part of his drive for legitimacy and because

he did have some American Corporate support, he managed to get introductions and make contacts with a good number of the old line Cuban "establishment"

that had been in sugar, ranching, mining and land in Cuba. That included companies ranging from King ranch in Texas to Freeport Sulphur in New Orleans. These are all folks who lost when Castro came in but it appears not the sort of people who gave up easily, including the old line sugar establishment in NYC.

However although he got moral support, introductions and advice from these folks it didn't seem to stick once it became clear that he was having no more luck than anyone else really buidling a broad exile base.

It also appears that as soon as he came on to the radar screen as a mover and shaker he began to get "offers" from the other old establishment in Cuba....via guys from the West Coast, from Vegas. Their standard investment type offer, just in case he made a go of it. Since the HSCA never got the books from the Junta it's hard to see where the money came from but it sure appears that the support and influence turned from the old line establishment to the high risk investors as his program began to run into trouble.

"What is interesting is that Oswald does appear to be giving the appearance that he was involved in a plot with the Cubans to kill JFK. I wonder why?"

John, Peter Dale Scott explores all this in immense detail in Deep Politics II, I would recommend it highly.

However I can give you a simple two part scenario as to "why".

1) Oswald was being used as a dangle against the Cubans and the pace had been stepped up considerably in Mexico City, he was carrying credentials including a reported Communist Party card (fake) which significantly enhanced his being a radical. He showed this material to Duran to try and establish himself. And he may well have been instructed to do wild things if they would not accept him....including cursing JFK and even talking about killing him. A good way to try and entrap the Cubans and test them. And of course the impersonator helped this whole pitch by mentioning to the Russians that Oswald didn't know where he was staying but the Cubans could tell them....creating a telephone intercept which someone of a suspicious mind might think implied Oswald was being housed by the Cubans, possibly even in a safe house. None of this is particulary out of the ordinary CI procedure and would have no implications or risk....until the assassination happened.

2) The bad guys know that Oswald is being dangled, is creating a Castro supporter legend for himself. They help it along with a few things like the Odio call back about Oswald being a wild man. And they prepare a variety of other pieces of information which will also make it look like Oswald may have been inspired by if not directly working for Fidel on November 22.

....and nobody wants to deal with that.....enter the Lone Nut..

Steve, I will have a good deal more information about Trull in my

second edition including the introductions and backing Sierra received out

of NYC. If you have my supplement you will find some of it in the

Appendix "The Way of JMWAVE".

Trull had a low level connection (entertainment) to people at the King Ranch

who became connected to Sierra via their old establishment sugar

industry connections in NYC. A number of the old like sugar, ranching and

mining companies all were associated in this way and the connections were

also utilized by David Phillips of the CIA.

Trull was recommended as a sort of cut out to Sierra, not exactly a PR man

but useful in public and with no obvious connections to any particular

backers. It helped keep up the air of mysterous American support for the Junta.

The documents supporting this are referenced in the supplement and in

the second edition which is now targeted for this fall.

You will also find some interviews with Trull about Sierra - and the related documents with my first edition.

Tim, I think its a good thing you are going to try to verify this story by

finding corroboration in the NYC papers. Obviously if the plot was that

well documented there should also be a variety of FBI reports and even

White House documents pertaining to it. That sort of thing would not

have escaped National Security briefings and should have been discussed

by everyone from CIA to State. Its not the sort of thing that pops up in

a newspaper report and goes away if its true. And it would be amazing that all the historical research on the Missile Crisis missed that sort of material.

Another thing that makes me cautions is that I have a whole series of newspaper reports quoting FBI and DEA sources in 1963 talking about drug busts demonstrating that Castro was running in Chicom drugs in a huge plot against the U.S. Of course when you get into the details you find that none of the people arrested had any ties to anyone except crime figures and none to Castro. Over the years a good deal of info has emerged that shows (its documented well in Strength of the Wolf) that those drug busts had nothing to do with Castro and all involved knew it. The drugs were coming from SE Asia and through France and nobody wanted to talk about the new SE Asia connection replacing Turkey as a source.

You also need to look at the books this bombing plot is being presented in and ask yourself whether there is an agenda going. I'd be the last person to think that Castro might not have had a retaliation strategy as Pat describes but that's another story entirely. Not that Castro shouldn't have been removed decades ago for crimes against humanity....its just too bad the U.S. handled things so poorly the Cubans didn't get a chance to do that themselves.

Thank you Ron, most helpful as always! On the surface of it both the

primary articles seem to be from exiles and are written with an agenda.

Which doesn't mean they are wrong but it true they are picking up some

history totally outside normal historical sources and we would need to

see some FBI documents and wtiness, news coverage etc. - something

beyond what is in the articles and in what Ron turned up.

We do have some fairly new historical sources that show us Castro browbeat

the Soviet air defence commander into firing the SAM that brought down the U2 and almost triggered an American response - with the Soviets being none too happy about that.

While I have no doubt Castro would have used nukes, could he get them, against an American invasion its another thing entirely to start the war knowing the result.

Tim, I'd say if you are going to use this incident as a source then you probably need to go further back to try and find some corroboration as well.

I'm certainly going to see if I can find those two books myself.

-- Larry

If everybody else knows about this great but I'd like to see a source and

some corroboration as it strikes me as a serious cold war history incident that

needs some attention.

I did a web search on Santiestaban. Correct spelling is Santiesteban. I found these two articles about the Manhattan bombing plan:

http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org/oaghf020.php

http://www.sumeria.net/politics/pulverizer.html

The first article cites no sources at all. The second article cites the following two sources for the portion of the article about the plot:

plot to destroy Manhattan in Andrew Tully, White Tie and Dagger. New York: Pocket Books, 1968, 74-78 (Tully mistakenly believes the plot was a Soviet idea, but it was Castro's), also in Andres Oppenheimer, Castro's Final Hour. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1992.

I checked at Amazon.com on these two books. The Tully book is out of print. The Oppenheimer book is still in print, and you can do a search inside the book. I did a search and there is no reference in the book to Santiesteban or Santiestaban, Manhattan, or TNT. There is one reference to New York in the 1980s.

Ron

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Tim, could you please point out your source for the details in the

500 K TNT plot (including where and how the people named would

get that much TNT). If it is in the url you posted I'm missing it

completely. According to your post there was fully corroborated

evidence that Castro was building a half megaton weapon for use

against NYC...

I don't think I'm the only one who has missed such a dramatic incident, it

should have been in all the books about the missile crisis and seems like

a rather huge item to be missing from the history books. Indeed if if

it were true it seems pretty strange that SAC wasn't on its way to Cuba

immediately afterwards. And not only didn't JFK dispatch SAC he began

a covert dialog with Castro only months afterwards?

If everybody else knows about this great but I'd like to see a source and

some corroboration as it strikes me as a serious cold war history incident that

needs some attention.

-- Larry

Ranting about U.S. intervention, Castro warned (in a 1961 speech) that if the United States continued its "aggressive imperialistic policies against Cuba" it was "putting New York in danger of becoming another Hiroshima."  Source:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=27620

Castro's warning was not in jest, but the US ignored it. The US continued efforts to kill him and to sabotage the Cuban economy, e.g. Operation Mongoose.

On Friday, November 16, 1962, FBI agents had discovered a Cuban plot to bomb New York subways and department stores with 500 kilos of TNT--on the Friday after Thanksgiving, the busiest shopping day of the year.  If successful, the plot would have killed more innocent civilians than the September 11, 2001 attack on the World Trade Center.

The plot was foolhardy for it surely would have guaranteed US retaliation against Cuba.  But the fact that Castro sanctioned it certainly demonstrates that arguments that it would have been foolhardy for Castro to kill JFK should carry little if any weight.

The head organizer of the 1962 plot was Roberto Santiesban.  He had arrived in the US on October 3, 1962 on a diplomatic passport as an aide to Cuban's UN ambassador Carlos Lechuga.  (Yes, that's right, the same Mr. Lechuga involved in the 1963 peace feelures!).  Other participants in the plot were two Cuban immigrants named Marino Suero and Jose Garcia who ran a costume jewelry shop on West 27th Street in Manhattan that served as the storage facility for the plot.  Suero and Garcia were members of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee (a name that must surely ring a bell!).

The FBI knew of the plot because it had infiltrated the conspiracy.  It knew that there was a meeting scheduled for Garcia's shop on the night of November 17th.

Involved in the plans to arrest the conspirators were Alan Belmont, the number two man at the FBI and John Malone, the head of the FBI's New York office.  Belmont was in telephonic contact with Malone as well as other New York FBI agents charged with keeping surveillance on the plotters.

Malone reported to Belmont that they had Suero and Garcia in sight and could easily arrest them.  Belmont asked if they had yet spotted Santiesban.  Malone replied that they had the area around the UN under surveillance but had not yet seen him.  Belmont ordered Malone to hold off on Suero and Garcia lest their arrests would allow Santiesban to escape.  Two hours later, Malone relayed field agent reports that Suero and Garcia seemed skittish but again Belmont wanted to wait for Santiesban.

In mid morning on the 17th the FBI finally saw Santiesban walking on Riverside Drive heading for a car with UN diplomatic plates.  That was it.  Belmont ordered the agents to swoop down and arrest all three.

Santiesban saw the FBI agents approaching and took off running.  He even managed to pull away when an FBI agent grabbed him.  Finally several FBI agents tackled him and managed to pin his arm behind his back as he reached for a pistol.

Suero was plucked from his car without incident.  Garcia was in his shop stacking grenades and detonators when he was arrested.

Other agents arrested the Cuban missions switchboard operator and her husband. The FBI estimated their may have been as many as 25 or more other me,bers of the plot.  From interrogation and captured documents they discovered the target list also included Manhattan's main bus terminal and the Statue of Liberty.

If Castro would send a man into New York City under a diplomatic passport to plot mass murder how can anyone argue that he would not have done anything as foolhardy as to plot the murder of John Kennedy? 

It should be remembered that Castro had warned the US that he would target New York City if the US did not stop what he considered US "terrorist" attacks on Cuba, clearly not an idle warning.

On September 7, 1963 Castro warned that US political leaders would not be safe if the US continued efforts to kill Cuban leaders.  On that very same day Rolando Cubela, a member of Castro's Cabinet, approached the CIA and offered to murder Fidel Castro for the US.  Not only did the CIA ignore Castro's "warning" and accept Cubela's offer, it even gave him assurance (whether true or not is certainly debateable) that JFK's own brother enthusiastically endorsed his murderous scheme.  The CIA even prepared a Papermate pen with which Cubela could poison Castro.  CIA case officer Nestor Sanchez handed Cubela the poison pen in Paris at the very hour Kennedy was killed in Dallas.  At the same time, Castro had scheduled a meeting with French journalist Jean Daniel who came to tell him how much JFK wanted to make peace with Cuba.

When Lisa Howard, the CBS journalist who had helped initiate the peace feelures with Castro, found out about the ongoing plots to kill Castro in the midst of the peace initiatives she was so upset she helped start Democrats for Keating in New York (RFK's Senatorial opponent) even though she knew her involvement risked her journalistic career.  Within months thereafter she was dead, an apparent suicide.

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Tim, two follow up observatins on Pat's remarks.

First, Castro had been in ongoing backchannel communication with JFK all through 1963 and this channel was expanding in the fall of 1963 with the direct use of personal representatives just having been approved by JFK. I'd have to think that if Fidel felt cornored and at extreme risk he could easily have gotten that message directly to JFK... in fact there is no evidence it was even a point being brought up by Castro as an objection to or condition to the dialog. Nor was it brought up by Castro when he reached out to Johnson offering Johnson the out of staging some sort of attack against Cuba in order to ensure his victory in the next election.

Second, nobody has ever accused Fidel of being bashful. I have to think that if he wanted to really communicate that he felt his back was against the wall he would have called a press conference in the middle of Havana and said it loudly and clearly. He would not have brought it up during a random dialog at the Brazilian consulate. Interestingly enough the Cubans have always challenged the articles that came from those remarks, claiming that Castro had actually said that the exiles were so dangerous they could as easily be a danger to JFK as to him. Considering that the reporter who did the story can be shown to be part of the Phillips media network and that virtually all the exile suspects were ready to pitch the article as supporting a Castro sponsored Oswald, I'd consider it just a little suspect. Even Roselli introduced it during his testimony..... its at least possible that it was spun as part of the Castro did it disinformation story line.

-- Larry

Pat wrote:

The entire argument that Castro would risk WW3 to kill Kennedy relies on the presumption that Castro saw no other way to avert his own murder. Since Castro had not sent Kennedy any personal warnings or attempted any urgent personal contact, there is no reason to believe that level of desperation existed.

Pat, if Castro's statement on September 7, 1963 was not an express warning to JFK ("American political leaders") what was it?  What else was he to do, call JFK on the phone and say, "Hey, buddy, call it off or you'll get yours!"  The fact that his warning was public not private only added emphasis to it.

As to the argument why had Castro not killed the underlings, what good would that do if they were following administration policy?  They were replaceable and would certainly be replaced with others following the same policy.

And of course Castro executed the men the CIA sent into Cuba to kill him.

The murder of JFK could be considered an act of desperation by a cornered man but so, of course, could the plot to bomb New York City with 500 kilos of dynamite on the day after Thanksgiving of 1962.  Which is why that 1962 incident is so relevant to our discussion.

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