Larry Hancock

James, Bishop did say that when in New Orleans, Bishop had seen Oswald in a training film, apparently Oswald had simply been in a group at the camp where Bishop felt he was trying to "get in" with Anti-Castro exiles.

The problem is, that while some of Bishop's stuff can be corroborated and hangs together a good deal does not; one person known to me was with Bishop during a group of polygraph tests and said Bishop would come across totally truthful for

about 3 minutes out of ever 10 or 15 but would consistently just start going off apparently just generating stories. Obviously it made him difficult to use as a source.

Oh, and on another note, in early JFL literature there was often speculation that it was Oswald, in his infiltrator role, who exposed the supposed camp that was busted in the McClaney raid. Perhaps he did but now that we have the full FBI documentation on it we also have their sources - in reports written in the summer of 1963 - and their informants were exiles and not Oswald. They go into considerable detail into how the informants came to them and who they were, probably because they had to evaluate bringing charges. In the end their was no prosecution because no individuals were at the scene when the bust was carried out.

OK, so I'm going to jump in with some observations about what we do know about camps circa 1963. Virtually all of this comes from i) the FBI bust of a U-Haul full of explosives at the McClaney farm and ii) investigations by Garrison staff including Harold Weisberg - who were obviously eager to place any of Garrison's suspects ranging from Ferrie and some misc. Cuban exiles to Oswald himself at "camps" in the summer of 1963. Here's what we have on camps; these are completely separate from pre-Bay of Pigs training at Belle Chase and the abortive CRC sponsored summer/fall CRC/Hemming/Sturgis/DeJoseph/Ferrie camp that never actually jelled.

1) The McClaney farm bust was not a training camp, it was a holding area for a parked U-haul and the FBI had full details on what was in it from an informant in Miami before they made the bust, even an inventory list. However this is often written up in early JFK works as a full fledged training camp - the local media coverage may have created that impression?

2) A ""target range" which was apparently used by local Minuteman and possibly other right wing groups and which might have been loaned out to virtually any anti-communist folks for target practice. Firing was heard coming from that location by the Cuban exiles who were at the camp described below...

3) A camp organized by Ricardo Davis, purportedly to be funded by wealthy Texans (per Davis) and sponsored with personnel from the Christian Democratic Movement out of Miami. The funding Davis promised never emerged and when the FBI busted the McClaney farm U-haul these folks were taken off and sent immediately back to Miami. David Boylan's memo discusses this and there is much other documentation on it as well. Again, in early JFK material this is sometimes discussed as an Artime/SNAFE/CIA camp but that appears to be totally untrue and would be in direct conflict with the CIA's deal with Artime to do all his training and preparations outside the U.S.

On a side note, in regard to the Tannenbaum film, I need to point out that a host of good researchers have spent much time looking for that including the archivist where Tannenbouam says it went - with zero results. For myself I find it pretty incredible that anyone associated with the HSCA could have concrete evidence of Oswald associating with potential conspiracy suspects only months before the assassination and i) never write an internal memo on it, ii) apparently never show it to any other staff, iii) not make a copy of it or blow up any frames as momentos and iv) of course not do anything to get it into the HSCA report. Also given that Garrison himself was in frequent communication with HSCA staff you might supsect they would mention it to him as they did a variety of other leads relevant to his supects including Thomas Beckham. And I don't think anybody has been able to get a straight answer from Tannenbaum on why he did nothing with such a smoking gun piece of evidence...if it really existed.

PPS...it's also worth noting that Arcacha Smith was long gone from New Orleans by the summer of 1963 and that Ferrie's exile related activities seem to have significantly tapered off with his departure - although as Russo documents in his book, they had been intense proior to the Bay of Pigs fiasco.

James, if you take a look at footnote 86 in my book you will find reference to several other documents on the CD that corroborate and expand on David's post. I would be very surprised to have seen Robertson at any of these camps and I'll expand on that on the new Ferri thread John set up.

Weisberg worked for Garrison investigating numerous rumors about 1963 camps and Garrison would have loved to find Ferrie, Arcacha Smith or any of his suspects associated with them. However that turned out just not to be the case. Indeed the individual who seems to have facilitated the 1963 camp in David's memo was none other than Ricardo Davis. Bringier identified him as the "purchasing officer" and person who selected the site. Al Osner tracked down the Christian Democratic Party folks who organized the camp and supplied people for it and interviewed Vega in Miami. The upshot seems to be that Davis had promised financial support from some wealthy Texans and nothing ever emerged, the whole thing was pretty low key, underfunded and short term and everybody bailed out after they heard about the FBI raid on the McClaney farm when they picked up the U-Haul.

However it is interesting that Vega mentions that the American "trainer", apparently someone other than Davis was ex-Navy, large and red faced and claimed ot have been at the Bay of Pigs on Destroyer Escort 510. Sound like anyone you know?

-- Larry

John, my remarks were to the point that I think this is a very important topic and you have done a fine job bringing it out as an issue. JFL's sex scandals included Monroe and Matthew Smith makes a strong case that Roselli and company plus the FBI had her bugged, Exner whom Roselli allowed to use his phone knowing it was bugged by the FBI and Rometch whose affair with JFK gossiped about by Baker to all his cronies (per his own statement). Given that Roselli, Hoover and Baker all knew about such affairs and knowing that Hoover was very much inclined to accomodate Texas oilmen like Murchison - who gave him tips on wells that made him good money - it seems likely that Hoover may even have gossiped about such things when they were all hanging out at La Costa together. Summers does a good job of detailing that sort of thing in his book on Hoover. On a side note I should mention that Hoover owned one very mysterious share in Dallas Oil and Uranium, the company with a representative in the DalTex building.

Given this broad knowledge I feel that many of the people often thought of as "at risk" such as Hoover, Murchison and perhaps even Johnson had "doomsday" class leverage over JFK. You have described Johnson using leverage during the VP nomination, we know Hoover used it on JFK and RFK and who knows what Murchison could have done with his lobbiests and media assets if he had decided to put that into play in 1964.

That was the real point to my remark - the press had let Kennedy slide during his first administration but a dedicated PR campaign with that sort of ammunition would have been another story indeed. JFK had to stretch to cover the whispering campaign about his healty during his initial push for the nomination and it appears some of that was pushed by Johnson. My personal view is that this all suggests that the individual or individuals who decided to literally kill JFK had more personal and more emotional motivations than eliminating him as a political or economic threat in a second administration. Just my opinion of course.

John, I certainly belive Cliff Carter's history, activities and reported later day confession are extremely important. Equally important is that Carter was in Texas and working the Dallas trip advance with Puterbaugh - which is very interesting in that Carter did not play a visible role but rather gave advice and counsel to Puterbaugh from a distance...... creating a window into all aspects of the security and motorcade planning. If Carter were complicit he could very will have been key in passing on such information to the tactical people.

I haven't run across anything to really bring any other aide into it but I might suggest you pay a bit of attention to Johnson's military advisor and aide Howard Burris - who did make a special trip down to Texas in conjunction with the JFK visit. According to Burris he carried down briefing documents to prepare Johnson for a confrontation with JFK on international affairs. Given both the trip schedule and Johnson's lack of interest in such things - not to mention JFK's agenda for the Texas trip - well it would be fascinating to have more detail on the reason for that trip. And if you want an oil connection, that name will lead you in some interesting directions.

Stephen and James, to put my own oar in the camp thing...

I think we can make a good case that Ferrie was still involved as of 1962 with the attempt to set up the CRC sponsored camp that involved Hemming and associates. I say that because I have seen photos from that period showing Ferrie with Larry DeJoseph - and with him in planes, cars etc in New Orleans. Hemming says that Ferrie was helping them with his plane and that certainly appears to be true.

However I've seen no sign that he was involved with the "camps" of 1963 which were something totally different - and one of which was not really a camp but rather a U-Haul with explosives for bombs...but that's another story. Anyway, I think he was in action there as related to anti-Castro affairs until that time - he may have dropped out about the time Arcacha Smith started having his problems and eventually left town.

John, something that your posts continue to point out is the unfortunate breadth of knowledge of the JFK sex scandals. Certainly it is clear that Hoover had sufficient ammunition from both the Exner and Rometch scandals (not to mention the Monroe information) to exercise extreme leverage over both JFK and RFK. The thought that his job was actually at risk is rather unrealistic given that sort of leverage. And of course Hoover was directly connected to Texas oil men, primarily Murchison. Summers does a fine job of laying out a lot of those associations in his book on Hoover and its clear that Hoover did well off oil investements recommended by his Texas friends. As a side note I have previously mentioned the one very mysterious share owned by Hoover in Dallas Oil and Uranium. And of course DUO had an office in the DalTex.

Matthew Smith has written several books which deal with the possiblity that Roselli in particular may have been involved in instigating and attempting to use sexual blackmail on the Kennedy's over a three year period....eventually becoming very frustrated when all the projects worked but none gained any signficiant leverage other than for Hoover since they all were kept suppressed and out of the media.

Other than that minor DalTex mystery, you also have to consider that if the oil men had really put pressure on Hoover its unlikely he would not have shared information on Kennedy's affairs, given Hoover's personality he would probably have enjoyed doing so. And given Murchisons immense lobbying network with people like Davidson, I can't avoid the thought that if Murchison had truly wanted to blow JFK out of the 64 raise he had access to a doomsday class election weapon in the sex scandals.

Another thought, from everything I have studied about the oil men, they were extreme individualists. They may have played cards together and they may have done deals together when each thought they could get something they wanted. But to think that they trusted each other enough to initiate a group assassination project is just too much for me personally. On the other hand as I mention in the book, there is concrete evidence - and much more gossip - to suggest that individually they did broach eliminating Kennedy with a variety of people. In particular I feel that H.L. Hunt had good reason o anticipate that some of the offers from he and his sons might produce an attack in Dallas or on the Texas trip.

Finally, in regard to the TFX scandal, I should note that JFK was equally upset with Johnson over both the the TFX and Baker scandals; in his long distance very early morning call to Johnson at the Ranch in Texas in October he chewed out Johnson on both points.

Stan, I think you are on a good trail there.

In support of it you have several informants who reported Rugy making a very low key, fast trip to Vegas only days before the assassination... where McWillie was working and where Roselli had gone after losing his FBI tail.

You have the call from the Desert Inn to recruit Belli to covertly defend Ruby... most likely coming either from Roselli or McWillie, certainly from someone Belli's partner had known in Havana.

And then you have Alex Gruber as a potential side channel for orders and money out of LA to Ruby - not to mention Ruby's call to him the afternoon of the assassination.

None of this solidly confirms that Ruby was contracted in advance to eliminate Oswald, however it suggests to me that if Ruby was performing some minor tasks and then got called in for a desparation effort to eliminate Oswald - as the only resource available - it's pretty clear to see where he was getting his direction.

Ron, it's pretty clear that Helms like many other CIA officers felt jutified in telling lies as a normal matter of course. Now that we are getting access to a host of JMWAVE operations documents as well as more documents relating to Cubela's activities post 1963 two things become clear a) the CIA did try to get Cubela involved in leading a coup but he repeatedly told him that was impossible and that no coup could possibly work without Castro being killed first he continually demonstrated interest only in assassinating Castro.

From a historical perspective Cubela was a far better candidate for assassination than a coup as he had proved ineffective in politics initially contending with Castro after the revolution - yet he had led one of the successful student political assassination teams targeting Batista's leadership.

Interestingly a document pre-Bay of Pigs discusses options and preparations for getting a "pill" to Cubela. Now unless they were going through a lot of work to enable him to suicide at will, it certainly looks like assassination was on the docket well before any 1963 meeting. And of course the signature on the related JMWAVE memoranda is David Morales.

Tim, Oswald didn't have to be killed in Cuba or taken to Cuba - he just had to be eliminated at a time and place which would have reflected him attempting to flee in that direction. Something probably most easily staged in Mexico. In any event the frame would have been further enhanced by planting some credible documents or other evidence connecting him to Castro. And if you want some pure speculation the people involved could very well have taken him out in Mexico and arranged to leave the body of a known Cuban agent with him. There was a considerable list of such and tagging and monitoring Cuban agents in Mexico was an ongoing thing for people like Phillips and Morales among others.

Great thread. A good answer to Dawn’s question about the importance of JFK forum’s.

Al refers to a second patsy in another part of the motorcade. I suspect he is right about this. But I would have thought there would have also been a second patsy in Dealey Plaza. The conspirators must have been aware that an examination of JFK’s wounds would reveal two gunman. Framing Oswald would never have been enough. They needed two patsies. The other man, like Oswald, would also have had links with left-wing groups. After all, the original plan was clearly to blame it on Castro in order to instigate an invasion of Cuba. For this to work both men had to be killed. One possibility was to kill them at the scene. This definitely did not happen. A second way was to get them together and kill them on their way to Cuba. Had they set up a pilot to take them to Cuba? Was the original plan to have the plane shot down on route? If this had happened, an invasion of Cuba would have been inevitable.

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A very interesting post, John. With respect to the plane to Cuba, however, I have these thoughts or questions.

Certainly the pilot did not know he would be going on a suicide mission. So how did the pilot expect to get into Cuba? Certainly Cuba was actively guarding its air space after the assassination in fear of a possible U.S. attack.

Another point: if indeed there were two patsies in Dealey Plaza why was the second patsy not used? It would have saved Arlen Specter a lot of grief, to be sure!

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Robert, that is a great piece of information on Masen and Ruby!

It also tends to corroborate the WC testimony by a friend of Ruby

and McWillie that Ruby was using simple coded messages to communicate

to McWillie during the time in which Ruby was first interested in and visited

Cuba.

Robert, we've also turned up a document which states that Oswald applied for a job at the Devilbiss Company in the general area of the Trade Mart after he was employed at the TSBD. There is no specific date on hisjob application but Dallas Eyewitness news investigated and were told that Oswald had been there about two weeks before the assassination. I'd say someone was covering all the bases. The application was picked up by the FBI but not specifically mentioned in its report on Oswald's job searches.

-- Larry

Jim,

  The motorcade route was finalized about November 7, 1963.

Are you sure about this?

Winston Lawson told the Warren Commission that he arrived in Dallas on the 12th and that the decision about whether to use the Trade Mart or the Women's Building hadn't been made yet. The decision about what building to host the lunch would have dictated the route used. They drove over several routes with Lawson and Sorrells making suggestions.

Late in the afternoon of November 18th, there was a meeting of various interest groups (who was going to sit at the head table, who would get tickets, etc.)

and Lawson said:

"Mr. Puterbaugh, for example, the liaison man that went with me from Washington, was there. And I had just come from going over the route with the police earlier that afternoon, and I told them as a point of information that this was the route as we had it now, unless it was changed later. "

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/lawson.htm

Steve Thomas

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Excellent points, Steve, as we've come to expect from you.

Although the November 19 Dallas Morning News reported that the final luncheon site hadn't yet been decided, it was finalized on the prior day, but too late for the DMN deadline.

A luncheon at the Women's Building on the Fair Grounds site would have still led the motorcade through downtown Dallas, via Harwood Avenue, before heading east [rather than west toward the Trade Mart] as FDR's 1936 motorcade had done. What's more, moving through the downtown area was key requirement imposed by the White House, according to SS agent testimony:

QUOTE ON:

Mr. Lawson:

But the route that was chosen was chosen because it was the consensus of opinion that it was probably the best route under the circumstances. It allowed us 45 minutes to go from the airport to the Trade Mart at the speed that I figured the President would go from past experience with him in advances, and as a regular working agent riding in a followup car. It allowed us to go downtown, which was wanted back in Washington, D.C.

[WCH IV page 326]

QUOTE OFF

The foregoing is important because on or about November 10 - while the final luncheon site was still undetermined - somebody named "Oswald" applied for a job in the parking lot of the Southland Center/Southland Hotel, in the process asking about the view the building afforded of downtown Dallas. [per Hubert Morrow of the All Right Parking concern]

The Southland complex is located on Olive Street, one block from the Harwood Avenue motorcade route, which route was fixed at White House insistence [per Lawson, above], irrespective of the final luncheon site.

It has been suggested this job application was a red herring, an imposter masquerading as Oswald inquiring about an advantageous position for a sniper, prior to the assassination. I would argue, however, that the real Oswald - at somebody else's suggestion - applied for the job, in the event that the Trade Mart was NOT chosen as the ultimate luncheon site. A job at the Southland complex would have put Oswald one short block - well within sniping range - from the motorcade on Harwood.

[How did the "Oswald" who applied for this job KNOW there was a job opening at the Southland Hotel parking lot? Any answer would be speculative, but let us remember that Alpha 66 firebrand Antonio Veciana testified he had in September 1963 seen Oswald in the company of Veciana's handler - Maurice Bishop - in a building that was most likely the Southland Center. Again, I feel compelled to stress that this is purely speculation on my part, but it should be noted nevertheless that Oswald had been in the building before, at somebody's else's suggestion, if Veciana's testimony can be believed.]

In short, I suggest that the motorcade route wasn't selected to place the President near Oswald's place of work. On the contrary: Oswald's place of work was perfect for the one route leading to the Trade Mart, but would and could have been changed had the Women's Building been selected instead.

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If I recall correctly McClendon also was close enough to Phillips to

have worked with him on a TV project which was going to be a

"CIA case files" series with actual CIA successes showcased. Sort of

taking the CIA to the same level of popular appeal as the FBI.

The project never came to fruition but it leads one to speculate how

someone like Phillips who spent much of his life outside the U.S. came

to be so tight with someone like McClendon - and who else Phillips

might have had similar relationships with? Perhaps there are other

Phillips family or youth connections of equal interest?

You would think Gordon would have been in Phillips book....grin.

Great post Tim, completely escaped my memory with John was

asking about Phillips ties to Texas, probably a really important

connection.

-- Larry

[

The Old Scotsman, Gordon McLendon. I did not know he was involved

with the Dallas Cowboys.

Jack

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Right on, Jack. According to Peter Dale Scott in "Deep Politics" McLendon was a co-owner of the Dallas Cowboys with Murchison.

Let's not get ethnic here, however! (I am 25% Scotch.)

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On the radio Gordon advertised himself as THE OLD SCOTSMAN. He was famous

for recreating baseball broadcasts purely from telegraph reports. This was before

television and network reports.

Jack

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Jack, they came up fine for me although they initially showed as empty...took

about a minute to load on my dial up connection. They are definitely there

in the article though.

-- Larry

quote=Jack White,Jan 6 2005, 01:05 AM]

Hi folks,  just wanted to advise everyone that Mark Bridger

at the folks at DPUK have been kind enough to place Mark's

most recent article on the Masen photos on the DPUK web site.

The link is below and the article is "John Thomas Masen -

A Picture at Last"

http://www.dealeyplazauk.co.uk/articles.htm

You'll find other articles you will enjoy as well if you have

never visited the site.

-- Here's to Mark!    Larry

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The picture was "unavailable".

Jack

Once you have seen the fence sequence in motion it becomes absolutely clear that if nothing else there is motion behind the fence....either someone opening and closing vehicle doors or someone running from the corner of the fence back towards the pergola. Pretty definite evidence of what I would call a second person behind the fence given the fact that the "hatman" shown so clearly by Josiah Thompson in his book would have had a real hard time negotiating his way among the vehicles and around the fence cornor in the required time.

-- Larry

In the next few frames you should see Abraham Zapruder getting down off the pedestal.

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Hi folks, just wanted to advise everyone that Mark Bridger

at the folks at DPUK have been kind enough to place Mark's

most recent article on the Masen photos on the DPUK web site.

The link is below and the article is "John Thomas Masen -

A Picture at Last"

http://www.dealeyplazauk.co.uk/articles.htm

You'll find other articles you will enjoy as well if you have

never visited the site.

-- Here's to Mark! Larry

Dawn, I'm going to jump in with a couple of answers just because I've

talked to Bill about this several times over the past year. Bill is not

a lawyer, he is a writer. He missed the Dallas conferences because he

was covering a trial that went longer than antcipated.

Bill is closely associated with COPA which operates from Washington D.C.

and has support from several volunteer legal personnel. COPA has been in

court numerous times in DC over freedom of information issues. The

Grand Jury effort is one of assembling information and developing legal

strategies that would be "portable" and could be taken into different venues.

There is nothing that ties it to Washington D.C.

There has been discussion by other individuals of doing something similar

but Bill's effort is the most well developed that I am aware of - although I really

don't know where it stands right now as Bill was not there to update us.

Hope that helps just a little.... Larry

"There are researchers persuring the Grand Jury issue tho. Will find out who. As it's slipped my mind."

Bill Kelly in New Jersey. He was to give an update on his progress at NID but couldn't make it.

RJS

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__________________________

Richard,

I assume Bill Kelly is an attorney?

How can he convenve a Grand Jury from New Jersey?

Or is it that he is working with attorneys to attempt this?

Thanks and Happy New Year.

Dawn

ps There are other efforts re GJ also, may or may not be affiliated with Bill Kelly's

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Tim, a reporter was contacted by an individual who claimed to have been an FBI agent assigned to the Roselli murder investigation in Miami. This individual described the memos to the reporter - whose name is in my book but which I don't recall at the moment. The individual allowed the reporter to tape the call, no name is given as far as the Agent goes and as far as I can tell no copies were offered (they may not have even existed any longer at the time the call was made?). The last I know of this the authors of Roselli's biography contacted the reporter and even listened to the tape but that's as far as it goes. Anyone really interested in digging into that could consult the HSCA segragated files which do contain requests from local law enforcement and FBI to the CIA for names and other information as the investigation progressed. The memos may even contain names of the investigators - there are a lot of files on this as the CIA was trying to figure out how not to cooperate while not looking distainful of legal process (hardly ever works for them but they try). From their perspective murder just doesn't rank up their with national security on sources and methods.

Interestingly enough the times given by the individual for the meeting do correspond to one of those small windows where Ruby was traveling and in which his actual location is not solid for a few days at a time.

-- Larry

Great thread Tim; as per some of my thoughts for very specific research that still needs to be done, here goes:

Locating the Roselli FBI and organized crime surveillance files for the last six months of 1963.

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

First, Larry, I had the idea from thinking about the section in your book where you discuss research and investigation still needed!

With respect to Rosselli, I understand an investigative reporter had seen FBI reports of two meetings between Rosselli and Ruby in late summer or early fall of 1963. Has this been confirmed as true? Does anyone have copies of the FBI reports?

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I'd like to share two other thoughts in response to Tim's original questions.

First, I think that in approaching individuals who have never gone on

the record or those who did at a point in time when the official story was

the only way to go without putting your reputation or career at risk, it would

be very desirable to create a "briefing book". This book would essentially

be a list of FBI agents, Medical Personnel, Secret Service agents and other

investigators or witnesses who eventually decided to either express their

doubts in the official investigation, to share the fact that they had either been

ordered to ignore or manage information or to actually discuss instances

in which information had been witheld or destroyed.

After starting with Hosty, Siebert, Oneil, Burkley and others I think this could

be a very valuable project to create a resource to help people know they would

not be "going it alone" and also as a background document for legal staff

working on grand jury or court of inquiry filings. In line with that I would say

such a briefing document should be shared with all the living Oswald family.

I'd also like to note that the key element in really getting either started is to offer concrete testimony or evidence which was not reviewed as part of any initial investigation. That was the approach that was used successfully in the Henry

Marshall situation as related to Billy Sol Estes.

Second, a research group could join Bill Kelley's grand jury effort by working on a specific background document listing instances where evidence was suppressed, managed or simply not presented.....and which would counter the evidentiary conclusions presented to the WC by the FBI and DPD. We have all seen lots of posts and lots of instances of this but it needs to be collected and vetted to put it into shape in order to support any potential legal opportunities. Its great

to make lists of names that we would like to see talk but personally I doubt that

very many in the "suspect" or "guilty knowledge" category are going to fess up at this point in time. On the other hand a couple of well documented briefing books as outlined above could go a long way to documenting the case for a cover-up (which is really the strongest case we have now in my opinion).

-- Happy New Year everyone

Great thread Tim; as per some of my thoughts for very specific research that still needs to be done, here goes:

Areas for research…

John Martino’s telephone records for October and November of 1963 – unfortunately BellSouth tells us no records of that age still exist. Question

is, is that really true?

The new CIA document releases offer a huge opportunity; one area of special interest is all the JMWAVE summary and operational reports – which include JMWAVE’s own surveillance (using special exile shadow teams) on targeted exiles.

Private files (possibly donated to Universities) of the media people who covered Cuban and exile activities circa 1963, these include notebooks and photos. If there were resources this should also be extended to media coverage of exile activities in Mexico City.

Contact with the Division 5 FBI staff, Secret Service staff and Police Dept Intelligence staff who monitored exiles in Dallas, New Orleans and Miami – possibly fruitless but by this time they might be willing to talk about any suspicions they had at the time. Especially if researchers did enough homework to give them a briefing book on the doubts, concerns and issues raised by a host of FBI and Secret Service employees to date. These folks need to know that they would not be the first ones to start talking about things they saw that they still wonder about. This could also be extended to all the personnel on AF1 and AF2 ….non-Secret service personnel.

Locating the Roselli FBI and organized crime surveillance files for the last six months of 1963.

Background research on Al Gruber in Los Angeles; Gruber represents the key link to who was actually controlling Ruby before the assassination and the following weekend.

Contact with Earl Goltz and development of the box of Ruby-Oswald evidence that was turned over to the DPD and viewed by officers Cash, Preston, Callaham, Keene and Stockard as well as by Wade.

Investigation of the Harrelson trial records to determine the dates and people involved in the exile gun sales scam he was involved with in Florida.

Investigation of the series of names and companies given by Holt as to their being actual CIA front companies connected to Domestic Operations and Tracy Barnes in 1963.

....all of these are real challengies and are definitely not the sort of research

that can be done on the internet; I'm afraid it would require people in the

field and probably some significant expense. But since you asked...grin...

Hi Tim, having asked the same question myself about all I can say is that is what I have tried to address in Someone Would Have Talked.

There is of course a significant list of individuals and incidents, ranging from well known names like Sylvia Odio and Rose Charamie to much less well known names including Gilberto Alverato, Pedro Gonzalez, Jorge Soto Martinez, Ralph Yates, Ray January, SA Patterson and Homer Echevarria.

And of course on the Johnson thread you have Cliff Carter, Billy Sol Estes and his witnesses and Grant Stockdale.

Not to mention mysterious items such as the Kirknewton intercept incident which is still fully classifiedand but which certainly could, like the Cheramie incident, point to rumors/gossip within the Trafficante/Marcello drug running network. And what Admiral Burkley really had in mind in contacting the HSCA to offer evidence of conspiracy.

Of course there are also a string of "Castro did it" remarks but I think if you dig into the actual sources of those remarks e.g. who the informant was working for, what units or individuals floated the reports I think you will find almost all of them associated with people who were deeply into the secret war against Castro and eager to present information which might precipitate action against him - unfortunately the problem of "intelligence advocates" is still around as we have seen recently in the problems with information from exile Iraqi sources.

Very good start John, a couple of new references for me. Plus it is very interesting to note that Seymour Hersch felt Weiner to be involved in a scandal that could have been very threatening to JFK - that would make two since the Rometch scandal was a huge political exposure to JFK given the German connections.

I suggest you check out Robert Morrow's interviews that are relevant to Weiner - see First Hand Knowledge. He interviews two people who had a good deal to say about Weiner and his associates, even connecting one of them directly to Johnson.

The one thing to be careful of in the name searches is that there were several Weiner's - one was indeed high in organized crime but I don't think that is our "Myron" who started as a lawyer from New Jersey.

For further reference, Weiner made frequent trips to Switzerland and returned through Miami, apparently connected to the Bank of Miami Beach, a sister bank to the Miami National Bank. Reportedly the Miami Beach Bank of Carl Epstein had been mob controlled and performed financial tasks servicing the Havana casinos.

Also, Weiner reportedly stopped over in Vagas on his trips back and forth to LA and the west coast and seems to have been a serious gambler - with possibly some serious debts?

John, you've taken this direction much further than I had and are now dealing with names that are new to me. However I can add a couple of observations and suggest one more name of my own.

First it's important to remember that although Johnson's elevation to the Presidency allowed him the political power to eventually neuter the Baker Congressional investigation, he continued to be worried about it for some months. Reynold's was one of his biggest worries because Reynolds remarks directly targeted Johnson with taking pay offs rather than even secondarily through Baker's influence brokering.

Second, it's important to recall that the Congressional investigation was more of a threat to Johnson than Baker who had already resigned his positions in any event. However Baker continued to be exposed both to the Hill law suit over ServeUCorp - which did not settle out of court until October of 1964 and then after that to a Grand Jury which returned 9 indictments in 1966 not leading until an actual trial in 1967.

Baker himself notes that his secretary, Carole Taylor, continued to try and get him to separate from his wife until her death in a private plane crash in May of 1965. Certainly she still retained the leverage of giving testimony up to that point - and she Reynolds had written insurance business for her just as he had for Fred Black according to G.R. Schriber in his book "The Bobby Baker Affair."

The additional name I would bring to your attention is that of Mickey Weiner, a lawyer, lobbiest and close associate of Bobby Baker in 1963. He was also associated with Fred Black - probably much more closely than Black was willing to admit on the stand given that Weiner did manage to pick up some aircraft industry work and work from Otis Elevator, one of Black's clients who was involved in a scandal later in the Johnson administration that seriously worried Johnson again (you will find that in my book). Weiner was suspected as using the same girls for business purposes as Baker and a Justice Department file on Rometsch mentions Weiner and his girls. Rometsch went to parties in Myron "Mickey" Weiners suite along with Bobby Baker. Weiner also kept an apartment in Hollywood . Margarete Broom, Baker's secreatary from 1955 to 1961 stated that Myron had "made Baker's office his second office".

Weiner seems to lead to some other names and yet another set of rumors about his possible knowledge of a conspriracy in JFK's death, he also leads to money going through a Miami bank - but that's another story and it's Christmas eve.

-- good hunting

Tim, I wish I could cite you the specific sources - my remark was based in

what I heard of Lamar Waldron's presentation in Dallas last month. Lamar

did cite several references ranging from State Department documents to

correspondance by RFK. Several of the State Department items were in

a publication available from one of the book resellers at the conference and

Lamar had brought a copy as well. Unfortunately I was not in a position

to take detailed notes on his presentation. I know Lamar is pretty tied up at the

moment but I would be happy to contact in in a few weeks and get the

specific references.

John,  given the Luce's aggressive conservatism (both husband and wife) I find it very consistent that they would have been doing deep background exploration on any potential democratic candidates.  I suspect that they saved the "ammunition" as you speculate - but simply because Kennedy was the primary candidate in 1960 and by 1964 when he was running as a war candidate over Viet Nam they may not have been that opposed to him. 

In regard to the Luce's [sic], LIFE and the war against Castro it is certainly true that the Luce's [sic] [an apostrophe is used to denote possession, not plurality] kept up the "get Castro" drumbeat but the more I study this subject the more indications I find that Luce was probably no more an ongoing source of a call to get rid of Castro than was RFK and at times there may even have been more mutual interest than I might have imagined.  An example is the TILT mission, where I once viewed it to be an almost rogue operation by JMWAVE personnel I have recently been reviewing correspondance between Pawley and Marshall Carter which clearly gave the go ahead for LIFE's involvement on the chance that the mission might provide proof of Russian and Cuban duplicity and demonstrate missiles still in Cuba.  This occurs at the same time that the Kennedy administration was itself moving to a formal position that the agreement with the Russians for non-intervention was null and void since the UN inspections which were part of that agreement had run into a stone wall and were obviously not going to happen. 

--  Larry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

While Kennedy obviously paid lip-service to many positions, it is naive to cite the U.N. inspections aspect of the no-invasion pledge - especially given the secret deal to remove the Jupiter missiles from Turkey, as well as the most obvious fact that Castro never at any time agreed to U.N. inspections. The evidence of the removal of the missiles was provided at sea, where U.S. overflights were met with removal of the tarps to reveal the missiles heading back to Russia. Castro had made it clear from the beginning that he would not accede to inspections, and no serious person ever thought they would occur on Cuban soil. So what is the source of the above blue-inked assertion "that the Kennedy administration was itself moving to a formal position that the agreement with the Russians for non-intervention was null and void since the UN inspections which were part of that agreement had run into a stone wall and were obviously not going to happen?" It had always been the official position that the agreement was null absent the inspections, but there was no movement toward doing anything about that. Thus, the Life sponsored Operation Tilt, intended to embarrass JFK.

Secondly, the assertion that Kennedy "by 1964 ... was running as a war candidate over Viet Nam?" Huh? I understand the misspeak about 1964, which Kennedy did not live to see, but the ignoring of NSAM 263 in the shaping of such a conclusion is another thing.

Tim Carroll

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks John, that's an excellant synopsis; it certainly sounds as if Hoover was not the only one who had some strong leverage over JFK and RFK.

There are pretty strong indications that Johnson was willing to take serious action to cover his trail when scandals got really nasty. Plus we do know that he was still concerned over Baker and that scandal even after he had taken the Presidency....that's when he made the remark about paying Baker a million dollars to shut up.

I've often thought that there were real mystery deaths related to people that knew Ruby was more than the WC pictured him to be in terms of crime connections and probably in terms of an Oswald association.

I think you have added a very good lead that there are another set of deaths relating to the Johnson/Baker scandal..... sort of reminds me of Estes and the west Texas deaths.

-- Great work! Larry