Larry Hancock

Very interesting article Douglas, talk about deep politics. And as to Robert, I'm afraid this sort of language is nothing new, at least in terms of his prior comments on Johnson, JFK etc.

Steve, a couple of things. First off my impression is that Orcabaro had been in Dallas for some time and did not leave immediately, he stayed for a few months at least, maybe more. Somebody interviewed him later in Puerto Rico, I forget who. What had changed that fall was that Alpha 66 had begun aggressively fund raising and recruiting in Dallas and traffic at the house had really picked up, with out of towners staying there. During Oct/Nov it clearly became a contact point with people coming and going every night. Both Alpha 66 types and DRE types visited and people like Amelio Diaz (DRE) lived there. The house itself was rented by Jorge Salazar, Vice Sec. of Alpha 66. The burst of traffic in early Nov is what brought it to the attention of Walther's mother. At least one source document that Stu located stated that Veciana had been to the house multiple times on trips to and through Dallas...but we have not been able to corroborate that. Several of the folks who either lived there or frequented the place - like Oswaldo Aurelio Pino - were either being investigated by the FBI or were FBI sources. There is some reason to believe that the FBI even put the place under at least part time surveillance in November. The FBI certainly had a mission to investigate exile organizations in order to interdict any actual military activities and certainly weapons purchases. Yet we only have bits and pieces of records on that sort of thing, especially from Heitman. Actually we have lots of post assassination documents and interviews showing the FBI was very well aware of many of the activist exiles and groups...we just don't have the pre-assassination equivalent. Heitman would seem to have been the guy looking into that - there is plenty of indication the FBI knew these people but finding the pre-assassination data is the open challenge.

Steve, I don't think the time was quite that short....I cover the points you mentioned above in SWHT and as I recall he had been in the house longer than that and did not exit that quickly...in fact there is good evidence that he was interviewed during the following year by the FBI and had been a source for them previously....indeed he seems to have been the source who helped them write off the report of Oswald at the Harlandale house. You might want to search my blog for posts on Harlandale and on Heitman.... there is some new information there on both subjects.

Paul, if you truly want to review Nagell's story you need to do a lot of homework. You can read what Dick Russell and I have presented in our books but beyond that I would encourage you to go to the actual huge collections of Nagell related documents. Many you can find online but if you want a sequential presentation of his documents, statements and contacts (including with various Congressmen) you can find them on my CD document collection available from Lancer. It is a very complex story, with Nagell's remarks depending very much what was going on between him and the government at various points in time. That is definitely not something you will find in the simplistic stories available on the internet. if you dig I promise you will be able to answer your question. Oh, that would be the Keys to the Conspiracy CD...

Yikes indeed Martin...well called...need to throw the penalty flag on that one.....

Jon, you do realize that we have Nagell's Army records and that he was recruited into Army military intelligence (CIC), served and was promoted in it don't you? He served in field intelligence in Korea and in CIC in Japan...

Ken, I really have no idea as I was never involved with the administration of the Lancer web site....posted a lot of times but I assume the rules are much the same. To tell the truth I've never worried much about posts as I assume that anyone can and probably will grab something off a public forum. For that matter I assume the same for my blog......protecting something personally posted on the internet is pretty problematic....reminds me of telephone calls on the old party lines, you just assumed somebody had their pone picked up on your call. I will ask Deb about it when I have the chance....

...You seem really interested in this Tommy so I'll give it another shot.. "I think I understand correctly that in your neck of the woods people would say "Coke-Cola" when they wanted a (brand name) Coke, right? Or was "Coke-Cola" also used to refer to soft drinks in general? I'm so confused..." -- Graves ".....yes, "coke" was generically used for sodas...." -- Hancock Sorry, Larry, but that's not what I was asking. I was asking if the slang expression "Coke-Cola" was used to refer to soft drinks in general. .....no, "coke", small capital c was used, as in the "coke date" I mentioned...and if the girl agreed she could have whatever soda she wanted... "Was (brand name) Coke even available anywhere in the TSBD? (I don't think so, so maybe this whole "Coke-Cola meant (brand name) Coke in Oswald's case" is a moot point, don't you agree?)" -- Graves ".....have no idea where this question is going, as far as I know there were only two soda machines in the TSBD?" -- Hancock OK, based on the assumption there were only two soft drink machines in the building, I'll rephrase the question: Do you think it was possible to buy a brand-name Coke (not to be confused with a brand name Coca-Cola) in the building? .....wow, not following you at all but obviously if you purchased a "soda" from the "Coca-Cola" branded machine...as reflected on the machine's name in photos...then you had a brand named "Coke"...unless of course someone cunningly restocked the machine with different brands, something that would make the machine operator unhappy I suspect... Which leads right into the final question: If so (i.e., that brand name Coke was available in the TSBD), which do you think Oswald was drinking: A Coke, a Coca-Cola, or a Dr. Pepper? Feel free to speculate at will. Let yourself go, Larry. I promise not to quote you on it. (Fingers crossed behind back) .......well given that Oswald (if I recall correctly) is on record as preferring Dr. Pepper, I would speculate that was what he bought and had in his hand....purchased from the machine on the first floor. Now if that machine were empty or if he felt especially adventurous that day, maybe he went upstairs to get a Coke. Even us dedicated Dr. Pepper drinkers go wild on occasion. I don't think he ran downstairs and rushed thorough the door and bought a Coke as an alibi....just my opinion of course. I'm not sure about your continued differentiation of Coke and Coca Cola, they were treated as one in the same, just a matter of personal expression. Of course since no bottle from the break room was taken into evidence and the bottle that was ...from either the fifth or sixth floor, depending on whether or not you belveve Alyea apparently was not tested for prints (which if it was from the sixth floor seems like a huge oversight...I mean, prints from cardboard boxes but no print from a bottle found in the area of the so called snipers nest?). ......and if anyone is joining this forum for the first time and this dialog seems sort of obsessive....you're probably right...

You seem to be saying you think Oswald was confronted on the second floor. ....no, not necessarily, what I'm saying is that if he were confronted in the break room and holding a Dr. Pepper bottle he had brought it up from the first floor not running down the stairs from the sixth, buying it out of the Coke machine and then being confronted....a scenario I've always been skeptical about... Regardless, did you and your buddies actually say "Coke-Cola" instead of "Coke?" .....I didn't but I recall several folks doing so, can't say why or how widespread it was....probably some were just wise cracking with it as I said in the post... Jesis Maria. If one of your friends wanted a (brand name) Coca-Cola, would they ask for a "Coca-Cola," a "Coke-Cola," or a "Coke" for cryin' out loud? .....could have been any of them giventhe time, circumstances and who they were talking to....personally I would have said "coke", but I was a teen at the time and teens often play with words to show off... I think I understand correctly that in your neck of the woods people would say "Coke-Cola" when they wanted a (brand name) Coke, right? Or was "Coke-Cola" also used to refer to soft drinks in general? I'm so confused... .....yes, "coke" was generically used for sodas....when I started college I recall the student handbook talking about getting acquainted with new friends by asking a girl out on a "coke date"....it was a simpler time back then... Did they say Coke-Cola because they were they afraid if they just asked for "Coke," people would think they were referring to cocaine? (Just kidding.) .....no, not a chance.... What would they say if they wanted a Dr. Pepper? LOL ....Dr Pepper..... Fascinating stuff. You do realize that, technically, the machine in the second floor lunch room was a (brand name) Coca-Cola machine, not a (brand name) Coke machine? .....yeah, that's pretty clear in the photo Do you think that Jewish, Washington D.C.- born and Iowa-raised David Belin said "Coke-Cola" and it got transcribed incorrectly? What about former Kansan, Harry D. Holmes? .....have no idea, and I think this gets into an area where way too much can be made out of word choices... Was (brand name) "Coke" even available anywhere in the TSBD? (I don't think so, so maybe this whole "Coke-Cola meant (brand name) Coke in Oswald's case" is a moot point, don't you agree?) .....have no idea where this question is going, as far as I know there were only two soda machines in the TSBD? You don't think Oswald said "Coke-Cola" when he was talking about a Dr. Pepper, do you? .....have no idea but generally Dr. Pepper drinkers would be pretty specific because if they did not ask for a Dr. Pepper by name they would likely get a coke. What, if anything, do you think Oswald had in his hands when he was confronted by some policeman somewhere in or around the TSBD: 1 ) a Coca-Cola, 2 ) a Dr. Pepper, or 3 ) a hard-to-find Coke? (I'm talking name brands, here.) .....Seems like this is moving into an area of humor (hard to find Coke?) so I'll just pass on this question..... Final question: Where do you think Oswald was when he was confronted by Baker or some other, unnamed, policeman in or around the TSBD around 12:35 on 11/22/63? .....I certainly think Oswald was confronted on the first floor - exactly when and how many times by different officers is unclear to me. I've always had questions about the second floor encounter and I've never thought the timing worked as the official story gives it. Personally I think its an open question and much like exactly who shot from where is something that will never be fully resolved at this late date. Beyond that, I never have and probably never will buy into the official WC shooting scenario with Oswald on the sixth floor behind the cartons and showing up in the second floor with a soda in his hands according to the timing offered in the WC report.

While I recall people in this part of the country commonly saying "coke" for soda, I do also recall them using the term "Coke-Cola" specifically for Coke - sometimes its hard to get the pronunciation because of our accents...grin. Its a purely subjective impression but I it would sometimes go like this - "hey, lets go get something to drink, who wants what - OK that's three Dr. Peppers and two Coke Colas (if you were trying to be a wise guy, otherwise you would just say two Cokes...I knew a few wise guys). Your observations on the second floor machine machine make perfect sense to me. And I think your comment on Belin is interesting, why not just say soda? Or did he want to generate a generic answer - "yeah, he had a soda pop" for some reason. Easy to put too much into the wording I suppose, but actually which sort of bottle Oswald was holding might be very important. If he had a Dr Pepper bottle in hand it seems he would have come up from downstairs... if he had a Coke in hand, there would have to have been sufficient time for him to buy one out of the machine on the second floor before being challenged.

I checked with my friend Jerry Dealey who knows a great deal about the TSBD, he provided me with the photos and we polled our contemporary memories of the period. We are both of the opinion that: Coke and Dr. Pepper were marketed by by separate companies with separate bottlers. They each had their own branded soda machines. You would find a Dr. Pepper machine that might have had Pepsi, Nehi, Crush etc but not Coke. Coke and Dr. Pepper each had their own machines and their own distribution - of course Dr. Pepper had an especially strong network in Texas where it originated. You would find a Coke machine with just Coke products. The machine on the second floor is clearly a Coke machine; the one by the refrigerator on the first floor is not in our opinion. It's Dr. Pepper. If you wanted a Dr. Pepper you would get it on the first floor, a Coke on the second. There is not bottle tray by the machine on the first floor although one might be leaning by the stairway, there clearly is an empty tray by the second floor machine. For what its worth... Yes, they were separate brands. The 1st floor was Dr Pepper, although at thetime they may have also had Pepsi, RC, Nehi, or other brands. But NOTCoca-Cola.2nd floor would have been Coke, Sprite and Crush (I think). Not sure fromthe photos exactly what brands, other than back in the day they would onlyallow certain brands in. The machines were owned by the respectivecompanies, and put in under an agreement.

Tommy, I'm trying to get some details on the actual soda machines and empty pick up crates in the building circa 63. One of the things that complicates matters is in those days many people referred to any soda as a "coke", coke was a generic term. If somebody went to the trouble of saying Dr. Pepper, that likely means they saw a Dr. Pepper. Right now what I don't know is if soda machines on the first floor and break room were both stocked with both types of sodas. Working on it.

Thanks Ernie, your information has been very informative and will be helpful in preparing for the upcoming release, thanks for sharing it.

Ed, having been there at that period in time I can witness that cribs were fairly large, normally wooden and did not fold....baby carriages were metal, pretty bulky and did not fold either...not like today's. Certainly if I were moving back then neither would have fit in a car trunk, certainly not a crib and putting either on the car roof would be a chore and likely scratch the car. If you had access to a pick up it would be ideal, no disassembly, just lift both up into the bed of the pick up and off you go. A truck not be needed but a pick up makes sense.

I suggested to Bill that given both the timing and the broad distribution list I suspect the NSAM has to do with bringing the VELA nuclear detection satellites online in support of the imminent nuclear test ban treaty.

I understand Greg and personally I have serious problems with several aspects of the official timeline and encounter....I just though Robert's diagram and photo might stimulate further discussions or even bring out some lurkers...would be nice to see some new faces posting.

I'm still waiting for a discussion of Robert's post 139 and an explanation of why two guys hell bent on charging up those stairs (which means hard turns at each half stair level to get up the next)....would see Oswald standing over by the coke machine....especially with all the between them and the door. That has never seemed right to me unless something refocused them them away from the roof and into the break room... especially since Baker was pretty clear about wanting to get up to the roof ASAP... And of course if Oswald had just gone through the door and it was still swinging shut its hard to see how he would be standing well inside with a soda or even facing back to the door. Robert's post and the photo make the issue very clear, would be nice to get back to it.

That would be five

Bart, Powell gave a variety of statements, first an internal MIG report to his boss on his activities that day, then to the FBI, both in the early days after the assassination; he also handed over his film. All that should be available in the documents at MFF with a search. It's also on my CD Keys to the Conspiracy from Lancer. As to the 112th, anyone truly interested in this needs to dig into the extensive research that the ARRB performed on the 112th, both its headquarters and its field offices including several more interviews with 112th personnel. They also explored the actual duties of the unit and its role in security. All that should be available on line but I do know its on the CD I just mentioned because we got the original documents early on and most of them were scanned for the CD.

I don't think its necessarily silly Tommy, I just think it would need to be tested....including trying to map it out against a timeline for the guys coming up the stairs. Actually it sounds like a valuable exercise since it would address what seems to have been a long term issue with the encounter.

Speculate at will Tommy, I think that's required to get an Oswald who walked upstairs to the soda machine and at least according to some reports was occupied with getting a soda (we are talking pop bottles) over in front of the window to become noticeable to two guys who were rising up the stairway to the top floor. At least that seems to have been their goal since they tried and elevator first which would have bypassed the lunchroom floor. I certainly can't say Oswald wasn't peering through the glass, but I think that's the only option to get their attention. I've been at those stairs and you literally just swing around from one set to the other as you are use them - and it would be a tight turn if you were in a hurry and basically running up them. I certainly don't recall the wording from the two men at this point, how does their description match the scenario of seeing Oswald approaching the window from the direction of the soda machine in order to be visible?

Tommy, I certainly think you could make a case that he went up the front staircase but if he does that and goes directly to the soda machine then I think chances are slim that two men who are running up the back stairs would see him through the small window in that vestibule. I suggest taking a look at the floor plan and the angles of view,.....if they had actually seen him entering the outer vestibule door or even seen it closing it might have attracted their attention to look in but otherwise if they are rushing up the back stairs to the roof, which is Baker's scenario, I don't know what takes them over to the door to look into the break room. The angles are poor for that from the back stairs...this was a major focus of one of the very earliest books which discussed the "encounter".

Paul, that's the sort of question that requires a much fuller answer than can be given on a forum post....I need to ask you if you have read either NEXUS or Shadow Warfare, where I deal with Morales' career at length over decades? The short answer lies in how you define "rogue". I find no evidence that he conceived of any major operation using CIA assets entirely outside his various assignments. On the other there is a good body of at least circumstantial evidence that he enabled and incited individuals the Agency was working with to go way beyond the charter and personally endorsed those activities...activities that would be interpreted as unsanctioned at headquarters level extending to torture, murder and political assassination. As a devout anti-communist I think its fair to say the Morales felt that there was war going on and such activities were realities of warfare....to be perfectly honest if you read the report of the Lindbergh study group you find pretty much the same attitude, the necessity to abandon ethics and morals to fight on a level playing field. So...I find Morales involved with third party activities going way beyond those sanctioned in CIA operations. I suspect that in Latin America Morales may even have become personally involved on occasion, oversight was virtually non-existent there when he was essentially doing the formative work that evolved into Condor. What he might have personally done in a similar vein in Vietnam is a matter of opinion. I also suspect Morales directly influenced a number of individuals who themselves were involved in a good number of things the Agency would never have sanctioned....or at least wanted to see reported back up the chain of command.

Paul, you really do throw terms like "CIA high command" around in a pretty broad fashion. The documents I'm talking about are everyday work documents, the sort any manager deals with on a routine basis. They tell you when Morales is in the office and what he was working on at the time. And of course they only tell you bits and pieces of that... But they do tell you what his day job was - and give you some clue as to when he might have been away from Miami. This has nothing to do with animosity, or attitude, it has to do with holding a job. For those who want to know what Morales was really doing in the summer of 63 and when he might have been able to work in his own private agenda to check out Oswald based on info coming back from New Orleans though his exile contacts....there is work that could be done on that....if you wanted to dig into it; then again just speculating is easier and probably more enjoyable.

Paul, you still need to do some homework on Morales...and since you have SWHT you should be easily be able to do better than what you just posted. What you described was not at all Morale's job at JMWAVE, other than the fact that his operational duties would have provided supplies, transportation, housing and logistics for the very limited Roselli/Harvey projects ...limited in both manpower and the number of its actual missions. And those had dropped off to virtually nothing by the summer of 1963, if anything the exiles involved were simply in a holding pattern in their own camp. You have to pay attention to the chronology, what Morales was actually doing in the summer of 1963....and that's fairly easy today unlike back when Fonzi was working on it. You can find dozens of JMWAVE operations documents involving Morales and they give a good view of his job - which was as the manager of the largest CIA base in the world at that point in time. Second in command to Shackley and operationally responsible for all the missions from infiltration and exfilitration to the activities of the AMMOTs. And no doubt swamped with paperwork and budget issues like any manager at that level. Just read the TILT memos that are signed and countersigned by Morales and get a real feel for his activities....for that matter, somebody might want to go through those memos, do some date stamping against the NO photo.