Paul Brancato

14 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Same as Cicci.

 

Love this clip from my all time favorite movies. You think magic button might refer to a high tech weapon? 

Cliff - what is your interpretation of ‘magic button’? 

2 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

I haven't read the book but as far as I know Valenti didn't say anything about Johnson getting a call; just making one. Which in your scenario means Johnson was told, before sitting with Valenti on the plane, to order the body sent to the plane.

 

The Secret Service and others were there with the body before the incident but not, as far as I know, with machine guns drawn.  Someone drew a weapon when Dr. Rose tried to stop them in the hallway.

 

What led you to the idea that something was missing in Pat's account?

 

Unless you think Johnson really was innocent of the plot and didn't know what was happening, why would he as president take orders from the military about such an important matter?

 

If it's true Johnson was just following orders, Valenti was fooled.  He referred to Johnson's call as "his first command decision" that was "an intuitive decision and a good one".

LBJ was apparently going nuts on the flight home. If he was the mastermind that doesn’t make sense. He was the beneficiary, and probably knew what was going down. Guilty as charged up to a point, but I don’t see him as the guy at the top. 

27 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

From Pat on p.3 in this thread:

From Jack Valenti's 1975 defense of Johnson, A Very Human President.  Valenti sat with Johnson on the plane while waiting for Mrs. Kennedy, and was intimately aware of Johnson's thoughts during this period. "before Air Force One departed for Washington, Johnson had also made his first command decision, on his own, to wait for the body of the dead president to be brought aboard before he gave an order to be airborne. This was an intuitive decision and a good one." So... Johnson, a man famous for seeking advice, had decided not to leave without the body, and had come to this decision entirely on his own, after reaching Air Force One. Hmmm..." 

I said Johnson ordered the body to be brought to the plane because he knew Jackie would accompany it and, more importantly, because he could not let Dr. Rose do the autopsy.

The scuffle in the hallway when Dr. Rose briefly resisted was with what is usually termed the secret service, at least one of whom had a weapon.  In any case, it's clear that Johnson knew who to call because the body was delivered to the plane.

Seems to me that there is something missing in this particular moment. It’s implied but not stated. And it’s unclear who went into parkland machine guns drawn. So it could be another entity, military probably, and what Valenti saw may have been LBJ following orders. 

Roger - focus on one thing for a sec. Do we know that LBJ ordered the body to be taken from Parkland? If so, who did he so order?

Maybe Oswald was an FBI informant. Seems likely to me 

Kind of with Stu on this. If there is groundbreaking research I want to read it, always. But in this case I prefer to wait and let one of the big boys analyze the info therein. 

How does one rectify this account with all the witnesses to the event, none of whom recall as far as I know shots from the front? There was no crowd around Lennon, as there was around RFK. It doesn’t make sense that the doorman was shooting. So who shot Lennon in the chest? 

As far as I’m concerned it’s a false debate. I read the article this morning. As usual NYT doesn’t really clarify what’s going on. And when they call for full disclosure after 25 years, using the JFK act as proof that this works, it’s a bunch of baloney. 

Certainly does make one wonder.

Interesting Doug, at least to me. Funny how Chuck Schumer (sp?) is touting the JFK act success to support a plan proposed in Congress to release all UFO files in 25 years. 

Did Mary say June was QJWIN? Or was it Jerrie? 
It’s too bad Hank and Mary never sat down with each other and worked through this mystery together. 

6 hours ago, David Whelan said:

Paul, you can hear Dr. Halleran talking about John's wounds in this audio clip:

https://davidwhelan.substack.com/p/dr-david-halleran-lennon-shot-at

Thanks - does the autopsy report confirm this? I’m recalling Noguchi’s autopsy of RFK which is very clear even while ignored by msm. 

3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Bill Kelly discredited Elena Garo.

Betsy Wolf found out that Angleton had Elena and Duran pirated off the day of the assassination to two different locales.

I agree why three different threads on this?

Jim - I’d like to read this. Where can I find it? 

Why has Ben made three threads out of one story?

Elena Garro paid a heavy price for the story she told, and she stuck by it. I think it shouldn’t be lumped in with the other sightings, and we should consider what Pat Speer said here not too many months ago - that like Ben said LHO could both be in MC and be impersonated there, by phone or in person, but unlike Ben that LHO might have been off on his own doing none of the things we are told he did. We could also keep in mind that once we accept that possibility there is no particular reason it has to be on those exact dates at the end of September. 
Can you imagine an armed LHO entering the Russian Embassy in MC and having to be talked down? Ridiculous on its face. Why the Russians made up this fiction and PBS aired it I don’t know, but Ben, come on man. 

David - I’ve never heard what Pete says about shots from the front. Would you mind elaborating on what the Roosevelt hospital doctor said, and what his role was that day? 

10 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

Humm, if I said that about you, I'm pretty sure I'd get a moderator warning.

Anyway, I think it is embarrassing that this thread is still going. The case for a John Lennon assassination conspiracy is ludicrous--it is built on reading miles between the lines and on choosing to see dark, sinister implications in meaningless discrepancies in the reports/accounts on the shooting.

Maybe so, but can’t you stay out of it? You’ve made your point several times. 

Good series of posts - thank you Roger. I think your explanation for the swearing in on AF 1 makes sense. What’s not entirely clear is whether LBJ was taking orders from the get go when he ordered the body of JFK be taken from Parkalnd and onto the plane. I believe he also ordered the Limo to be flown out. All of this is suggestive of his prior knowledge, but not proof of it or of his prior involvement.
I am going to assume that the assassination was ordered from a high level. If it was LBJ then one can view all his subsequent actions through that lens. But if the coup was managed through the MIlitary/CIA there was no reason for them to doubt that LBJ would comply. Perhaps Madeleine Brown had it right when she said that she thought LBJ was brought in the night before. He surely wasn’t going to stop it, and if she is telling the truth he was thrilled. 
MacBird - was that the name of the Broadway show? It remains most logical, most like human nature. 
Question for Jim D - where is the line between LBJ and Hoover? 

Indeed we are still here. When I wrote my trading cards I settled on LBJ as the most likely suspect. Since then I’ve been down many roads. I’m certain he knew, and would have acquiesced to any such plan. Episode 9 doesn’t prove anything but it’s mighty suggestive. 

I’d like to hear from John Newman on this. I hope he has something to say.

1 hour ago, Richard Booth said:

Yeah, footnotes and citations would be great. But this IS Rob Reiner, so half this stuff he isn't even aware of and he's just reading from a script he was given...

I doubt that. A writer is credited, but your conclusion isn’t likely, given Rob’s intro. 

6 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Who is SAMUEL CUMMINGS?

Interarms (formerly  Interarmco and officially the International Armaments Corporation) was the world's largest private arms dealer, and once had enough weapons in their warehouses to equip forty U.S. divisions. The sole owner was Sam Cummings, who got his start working with the CIA to procure weapons for the 1954 coup in Guatemala

A most interesting individual was James P. Atwood (April 16, 1930- July 20, 1997).

A top US Army Intelligence agent and important CIA contract worker and former FBI employee who ran guns, drugs, counterfeit rare German daggers, stolen archives and much more in and out of various countries from his headquarters in Savannah, Georgia.

During his career, Atwood worked with the CIA's Sam Cummings, Tom Nelson, Jim Critchfield and many others

Atwood's activities are linked to Robert Crowley (who knew him and disliked him) ,to Jim Critchfield and a number of other CIA luminaries.

Arrested by the Army's CIC in the early 60s, for misuse of government mail, tax fraud and other matters,  Atwood  got the CIA to force the charges against him dropped. All the paperwork was supposed to have been destroyed but a copy of the 62 count indictment plus the Chicago Federal judge's orders have survived.

 

Gregory Douglas writes "It was an easy matter for Cummings to procure two silenced .38-caliber pistols, two 7.65-mm surplus Argentine army Mausers"

 

Tony - interesting subject and conjecture. I do agree with Nick - I find it inconceivable that the MC could have been misidentified as a Mauser at first. 
when you mentioned Atwood it rang a bell. I don’t think one can look at Cummings and Interarmco without looking at Merex. I believe that Atwood was connected to both. I tried to post a link but it won’t take. The issue of ‘gun running’ comes up over and over again when studying the assassination, such as the weapons being stolen from the 112th and sold to Minutemen and Cubans, being investigated by the three goons who later found them selves on the 6th floor of the TSBD - ATF agent Ellsworth, FBI Hosty, MI Ed Coyle, meeting together at the time of the assassination because their sting of the gun runners had been interrupted the night before by Dallas Police, Jack Ruby in so many ways, Alpha 66. I think the identification of the TSBD rifle is a crucial point, and the truth still eludes us. There is recent evidence being dug up suggesting that LH Oswald was involved in this, not as a gun runner but as an agent investigating same. I know PD Scott decades ago conjectured that LH Oswald’s gun purchases were part of a Congressional investigation into illegal maiil order arms sales. But the truth may be much deeper than that. 

25 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Ben:

How do you know that he is palsy walsy? Did I miss something.?

Uh - no I don’t think so. Everyone is such an expert, and they are sure Rob Reiner is less so. He is shining a spotlight on this because unlike us he can. Give the guy credit and a free pass for now. 

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

It's real easy to be an armchair quarterback, isn't it Doug. What would you have done to prevent the death and misery in Gaza? What would you have done with the troops in Afghanistan?

Biden is one of the few Americans who are trying to free hostages and get humanitarian aid to Gazans. He should be thanked, not blamed.

Out of curiosity, did you blame President Carter for his failed attempt to rescue the hostages in Iran? Did you blame Ronald Reagan for the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut? (I could go on, but I'll stop there.)

 

What was Reagan’s response? I would say to Doug we should never have gone into Afghanistan or Iraq. 
Brown University study from 2021 on the costs of post 9/11 conflict? 940,00 at least, including 432,000 civilians. There is much more to this study. Google Costs of War Brown University. The political blowback in Europe of 25 million refugees is ongoing. 
I do think, as Leslie called my attention to this, that we should remain civil. If I have failed to do so I would appreciate knowing that. I finally, after 10 years, put someone on ignore after repeated insults. 

Jim - thanks for reminding me of where I heard that upside down story in the Crown about Nkrumah. That’s really troubling. 
btw I finally put someone on my ignore list. Feels good.