Robert Prudhomme

Excellent breakdown and analysis, Alistair.

I must admit, I thought you were a bit of a dud when you first started posting here but you have certainly proven me wrong on that count.

P.S.

I cringe whenever someone says Adams MUST have taken longer or Shelley's "ten minute" statement doesn't work.

This is like playing "Where's Waldo?". I'll bet no one can find him.

And no, I don't believe he is the potbellied guy in the white shirt with the skinny black tie seen behind Lovelady in Altgens 6. Shelley was too lean to be that guy, who is likely Molina or Williams.

I've noticed it was getting a little dull around here so I thought I'd liven things up a little with something that's been bothering me for a while now.

Those that believe Shelley and Lovelady can be seen in the Darnell film, strolling westward down the Elm St. extension while Baker runs for the TSBD front entrance, are fond of saying it must be Shelley and Lovelady that are seen in Darnell on the extension, as they cannot be seen on the steps.

While Billy Lovelady can plainly be seen in photographs and films on the steps, it has occurred to me that, while the six foot tall Buell Wesley Frazier and his slick 'em back hair stick out like a sore thumb, no one has ever positively identified Bill Shelley on the top of the steps where he claimed he was standing. For that matter, there were an awful lot of people who claimed to be standing on the top step, and photos and stills don't show it to be that crowded.

Now, before anyone starts going on about how many witnesses supposedly saw Shelley there, and how that proves he must have been there, think about this. A white helmeted police officer ran up the stairs and entered the front door, and NO ONE on the top step saw him; not even Frazier who was standing right in front of the door and who likely had to move out of the way to let Baker get by.

SERIOUSLY??? Three rifle shots go off barely 20 yards above your head and a helmeted motorcycle cop almost runs you over going into the building, and you don't see him?? I do not believe it for one second.

The other thing I do not believe is Frazier's lack of recall when it comes to Prayer Man. Frazier spent many years not only refusing to admit PM was Oswald, he could not even recall anyone actually standing in the corner where PM obviously was; despite the fact he was looking directly at PM in the corner in the Darnell film.

Can you really look directly at someone standing all by himself on the west end of the top step, and not see that person?

Obviously, you can, as Frazier proves to us. Therefore, in light of Frazier's recall or lack of, I do not find it strange in the least that people can recall seeing Shelley on the top step, and the possibility exists he was never there. I need proof.

WHERE IS WILLIAM HOYT SHELLEY???

On 31/12/2016 at 1:54 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

Ignore the undeletable message above this.

You have completely lost the ability to make a rational comment, Bill. This discussion is going nowhere, if you refuse to see reality for what it is. Therefore, I am going to place you on my Ignore List. Have a nice life!

On 31/12/2016 at 1:54 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Ignore Sand Larsen intro above.

" I have said all along that Shelley's comments are supported by the Darnell film if Bart is correct that it is Shelley and Lovelady moving between the cars parked on the Elm Street extension"

That's a big IF, Bill. There is about as much evidence to support this as there is to support Prayer Man being Oswald. Let me know when they find some better video.

" That Shelley and Lovelady saw co-worker Gloria Calvery running up towards the TSBD crying as they stood on the steps and then they started moving away from the stairs and towards her."

Nope. This is contradicted by first day statements AND Warren Commission testimony. Remember, no cherry picking evidence to make a pet theory work.

"  As they were crossing the street so to get to the Island, they met her in passing just prior to stepping up on the Island near the tree next to the concrete monument."

Nope again. There is not one single thing in any of the statements or testimonies to support this. And, if there was, it would be contradicted by both Shelley's and Lovelady's testimony to the Warren Commission. Remember, cherrypicking ist verboten, ja?

" The difference between us is that I know that one's recall can be slightly off and still be true to the evidence whereas you think even the slightest error in someone's recall is a lie. My experience has been that in a stressful situation that involve surprise and shock - a witness will remember things in segments and his or her mind will fill in the blanks after the fact in an attempt to make sense of the things they remember. I don't know anyone, with the possible exception of yourself, that has never found out later that they had a detail wrong in that they were certain that had gotten right."

Please save your amateur psychological analysis for someone who is actually interested in reading it.

The saddest thing we see in the JFK research community is researchers who fall in love with a pet theory, and blind themselves to anything logical and rational as they are afraid it will threaten their pet theory. You yourself have criticised the Prayer man supporters for this, yet do not see it in yourself. It becomes necessary for them to cherry pick the pieces of evidence that support their pet theory, and reject all other evidence as

1) confused

2) mistaken

3) lying

4) misremembering (my personal favourite )

5) altered

6) the list goes on but I can't think of anything right now

On 31/12/2016 at 1:54 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

Ignore sandy Larsen intro above

Wait a minute Bill. Now we have to ignore the first day statement where Shelley ran across to the island and talked to Gloria Calvery there.

Will you please make up your mind which piece of evidence you plan to go with, as they all seem to contradict each other?

You can't simply cherry pick whatever evidence happens to work with your current theory.

21 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

I don't think Mr. Miller quite understands the concrete island concept. The concrete actually stopped just to the east of that big tree in late 1963. The concrete was added on either side of that tree as so many people were walking around it, the grass was being destroyed. You can see the difference in old and new concrete. As we have located them in the middle of the street and way west of the concrete island, I wonder how they could have been on the concrete island and looked back to see Baker and Truly "fixin' to get ready" to go up the stairs, as Baker and Truly hadn't even met when S&L were well past the island?

On 31/12/2016 at 1:54 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

Ignore the Sandy Larsen intro above

Robin

" Mr. SHELLEY - We walked down the middle of the little street.
Mr. BALL - The dead-end street?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. "

On 31/12/2016 at 1:54 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

Ignore the undeletable message above this.

Wow, I've never seen it from this angle before, Robin. Thanks for that.

So, "they" are way past the concrete island, and Baker hasn't even met Truly yet. Something stinks to high Heaven here.

On 31/12/2016 at 1:54 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

Ignore the undeletable message above this.

Hard to see how there could be a curb (kerb?) on the left side, as there seem to be vehicles parked on either side of the Elm St. extension. Aren't they out in the middle of the extension?

Running Woman, OTOH, appears to be on the sidewalk in front of the TSBD.

21 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

Last location seen in Couch, of the two walking men

 

Not exactly on the concrete island. I wonder if they returned to the concrete island before turning back to see Baker and Truly "fixin' to get ready" to go up the stairs?

On 31/12/2016 at 1:54 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

Ignore the Sandy Larsen message above. It keeps popping up and I can't delete it.

Sorry, Robin, Couch gif. I can't seem to keep the two straight.

"Shelley" definitely seems to be taller than "Lovelady".

One round in the chamber and two more in the clip? Unless someone removed the clip, took the two bullets out of the clip and re-inserted (carefully) the clip in the magazine, I don't buy it. Would these two rounds not be in evidence?

The clip can be seen protruding from the magazine as the rifle is carried to the DPD. If there were two rounds still in the clip, the elevator bar would not have allowed the clip to fall out.

"For all they knew, there could've been 20 assassins in that building. They had their guns out, ready for anything."

Sure, Tom, and as soon as they found C2766, they hollered "We found THE rifle!" and the search for the other 19 assassins abruptly ended. Pull the other one, it plays Jingle Bells.

On 31/12/2016 at 1:54 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

Please ignore the wording above regarding Sandy Larsen. Something is wrong with the "Quote" feature, and I cannot get rid of the above logo.

That being said, Bill, there are a few things wrong with your theory.

First, was there really enough time for Gloria Calvery to run back up from where she witnessed the assassination, for Calvery to have a fairly involved conversation with Shelley and Lovelady and for Shelley and Lovelady to be 25 steps down the Elm St. extension BEFORE Truly and Baker had even climbed the steps?

" Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL - And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
MMr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in."

Please note that Shelley said "on" the island and not "near" or "close to" the island.

So, according to Shelley, they did not actually see Baker and Truly enter the building, they were only "at the first step like they were fixin' to go in." Would you call that conclusive proof, Bill, or would you sat that was merely an assumption?

Speaking of assumptions, let's talk about the Darnell film. Are you actually able to see Baker run up the steps and enter the TSBD, immediately after crossing the Elm St. extension, or do we once again have to assume that is what Baker did? I would hate to have to fight this in a court of law based on all of the assumptions you would be asking the jury to make.

One final assumption we have to make for your theory to work is to assume two fellows seen walking down the Elm St. extension are Shelley and Lovelady, and that if (and that is a big if) Darnell had stayed on them a few more seconds, we would see them turning around to witness Baker and Truly "at the first step fixin' to go in". But, there is another problem here. These two fellows are not on the concrete island. Rather, they are in the middle of the Elm St. extension between cars parked on either side. PLUS, they don't appear to have conversed with Gloria Calvery yet, if you are one of the True Believers who maintain they spoke to her on the concrete island. Now, if they had already spoken to her, would we not be able to see her somewhere in the vicinity of the concrete island? Or did she give the news to S&L, and then run into the TSBD well ahead of Baker, just so she wouldn't be captured on the Darnell film?

For a short dumpy little woman, that Gloria SURE could run. Lickety-split!

As they say, "Confusion to your enemies!"

On 02/01/2017 at 5:47 AM, Alistair Briggs said:

I think it is fair to say that witnesses (across the board) to such a momentous event are likely to get certain details wrong whether in terms of exact timings or exactly what they saw. We can't expect every single person to see everything or correctly remember everything, so there has to be some lee-way there. Having said that though, I mean there is being wrong and then there is being wrong... Shelley and Lovelady seem to be all over the place with their timings and what they did/saw it just can't be chalked up to 'simple errors' on their part...

Was it yourself who is currently on the case of trying to find out the exact height of Shelley?

Yes, I am. I.m not having a lot of luck so far.

21 hours ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

 

I've been trying to make sense of this whole thing for years now. It's enough to drive one mad. As you say, S&L's 3-4 minutes on the steps makes a mockery of Baker's early entry into the TSBD. Just what kind of cover up was this?

I also find it interesting that, in his statement to the FBI, Shelley states that he and Lovelady " accompanied some uniformed officers to the railroad yards just west of the building....", yet the two men some claim to be S&L walking down the Elm St. extension are clearly not with any uniformed police officers. It should be interesting to see how this is dealt with.

Edit: Not sure how the "21 hours ago, Robert Prudhomme said:" got up there....weird

On 01/01/2017 at 9:09 PM, Alistair Briggs said:

The thing is, at this moment there is something formulating in my head about something to do with all the timings, but I don't want to get too ahead of myself with my own thinking else I confuse myself. I feel I have to point out that I don't really have any pre-concieved ideas about all this, I'm just trying to work through a few things. As something of a heads up, my thinking hasn't got to the 'Baker and Truly' on the stairs, as I'm kind of looking at things from 'the other way round'. Hopefully that won't come across as too defensive (or too cryptic) on my part.

Clearly a simple error misspoken by Mr Belin. In the entire testimony the name Shelley can be found 5 times and always alongside Lovelady, whose name can be found 6 times, the only difference being the above which is clearly just a simple error.

To be honest Robert, I'm not really getting the point of your response as you have made no reference to the 2 'important' parts of my previous post. 1) Whether my contention in the first paragraph was correct. 2) Whether the notion of the 2 minutes (based on the quoted testimony) was so ridiculous or if I was missing something.

Regards

Think about this when you are attempting to calculate how long Vickie Adams and Sandra Styles took to come from the fourth floor window to the first floor, where they supposedly met Shelley and Lovelady. This is from Shelley's statement to the FBI:

 “Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the westside door of the building about ten minutes later. I remained in the building until about 1.30p.m. When I was asked to go to the Dallas Police Dept to furnish an affidavit.”

Do you think Vickie took ten minutes (or longer) to come from the fourth floor?

On 01/01/2017 at 10:10 PM, Robin Unger said:

If you want to do photo analysis you need to get better frames.

 

Greer must have found those flags out on the fenders awfully distracting when he was driving.

22 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Cite and quote the source for your position as that is not what I have read - and I have been quite thorough by quoting the witnesses in my response .... you should be able to extend the same courtesy.

Cite and quote it yourself, Bill. You don't give orders to people around here, do you follow me?

We have been over Shelley's and Lovelady's testimonies so many times, we have almost worn out the witness web page. I don't know what testimonies you have been reading but the ones we have all read here clearly have S&L stating they did NOT leave the steps until Gloria Calvery arrived at the steps.

What is your agenda here, Bill? The rest of us have been discussing you amongst ourselves, and the general conclusion is you seem to be here purposely wasting everyone's time. Is that what you are up to?

HAVE YOU REALLY NOT SEEN THE DOZEN OR SO TIMES I HAVE POSTED THE TESTIMONY OF S&L STATING THEY DID NOT LEAVE THE STEPS UNTIL GLORIA CALVERY ARRIVED AT THE STEPS?

Just for you, one LAST time, here is the relevant excerpt from the WC testimony of Bill Lovelady. Please read it and commit it to memory, as I will not post it again for you:

" Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say. 
Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time. 
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could. 
Mr. BALL - Had people started to run? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps. 
Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes."

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wit.htm

I've even posted the link for you, Bill, so you can go look things up for yourself.

On 31/12/2016 at 1:54 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

On 01/01/2017 at 9:51 AM, James R Gordon said:

Thanks Robin,

Do we have any kind of time stamp for this image? I know Lovelady and Shelly are not insight at this point, but they are out of picture and making their way along Elm.

It would be helpful to know approximately when this image was taken.

James

"....but they are out of picture and making their way along Elm....."

I'm sorry James but, I think there is about as much conclusive evidence that we can see Shelley and Lovelady "making their way along Elm" as there is that proves Prayer Man is Oswald.

Are we not employing a double standard here by assuming we can see Shelley and Lovelady in a poor quality grainy film?

Okay, 1.5 minutes at most. If 1.5 minutes equals 90 seconds, and Oswald allegedly made it from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor in 90 seconds, there is a good chance they would have heard him on the stairs. From what I've read, they were very noisy wooden stairs.

21 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

The contention (and please correct me if I'm wrong here) is that the testimony of Adams created problems for the official WC thinking that Oswald did it because their timing of Oswalds movements from the last shot to the encounter with Baker on the 2nd floor meant that he had to have passed Adams on the way down and she saw no one and heard no one on her way down?

Setting Oswald aside for the meantime, and merely looking at the timeline of Adams.

"Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately. "

"Mr. BELIN - So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, approximately. "

"Mr. BELIN - When you got to the first floor did you immediately proceed to this point where you say you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Well, you showed me on a diagram of the first floor that there was a place which was south and somewhat east of the front part of the east elevator that you encountered Truly and Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS - I saw them there.
Mr. BELIN - I mean; you saw them?
Miss ADAMS - Yes.
Mr. BELIN - Would that have been a matter of seconds after you got to the bottom of the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - Definitely.
Mr. BELIN - Less than 30 seconds?
Miss ADAMS - Yes. "

*Oh just noticed there that backs up my thinking in my earlier post about the word 'encountered' meaning 'saw', I had overlooked the clarification later on in the testimony.

Obviously times have to be approx. so there has to be some lee way. From looking at that though is 2 minutes really that ridiculous a notion or am I missing something really obvious? Taking the highest of those times, 30 secs + 1 minute + (less than) 30 seconds + the some time from that point to the leaving the back door = approx. 2 minutes.

Funny she never ran into Baker and Truly on the stairs.

Also, she was supposed to have encountered Shelley and Lovelady, not Truly and Lovelady.

21 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Cheers Sandy.

*At the moment personally I would like to somewhat err on the side of caution and say that it is an 'alleged' WC alteration. I'm not fully convinced on that point at the moment.

However, would it be fair to say that at that (approx.) 02:00 time Adams would be about to leave the back entrance?

 

Well, think about this. Oswald made it in 90 seconds, and he came from the 6th floor, not the 4th floor Adams was on. Lee also had to stop long enough to wipe his fingerprints off of the rifle and to hide the rifle under a pile of cartons. Adams said they were coming down the stairs pretty quick.

Two minutes? No way.