Robert Prudhomme

Sorry, Robin, but I've seen better quality gifs than this one, and there is definitely a person there. 

21 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Robert,

Thanks for 1) reminding me that Lovelady may actually be in Darnell, bending down as though talking to the woman in front of him on the steps, and 2) for pointing out that the testimony of the three women with Gloria Calvary (which I did recall were nearly identical) might have been designed to create a false reality. (I need to look at that Darnell film again and see if I can still see Lovelady.)

I have a question for you... what makes us think that the four women identified nearest the Stemmons sign are Karan Hicks, Carol Reed, etc.? I mean, those numbers above each person are identifications determined by assassination researchers, I assume, and could be wrong. Should we be looking for a different group of four women? Or can we have confidence in the identification of those women? Three out of four of them, that is.

Good question. To be quite honest, although we know what Gloria Calvery looks like, we have no idea if the women ID'ed as Hicks, Westbrook, Reed and Dishong really are these women. he only way we know they were the first group of five women east of the Stemmons sign is that is what the carbon copy FBI statements tell us.

In short, we really don't know much of anything but I'll tell you this much. I'm slowly beginning to appreciate just how thoroughly we've been had, and that the perpetrators of this cover up wove such an intricate web of deceit, we may never fully unravel it. The thing I don't get, though, is why go to such trouble just to falsely place Gloria Calvery 30 feet from the limo at the first shot?

I guess all we can do is try to produce high school photos of Karen Westbrook, Karan Hicks and Carol Reed. Luckily, they don't appear too old and a couple of them would not have been out of high school long.

LOL Sandy, that's why they're called the Wonder Years....you wonder how you're going to survive them.

And yet, when they're 25 years old and don't have much time for you anymore, you'd give anything to go back to those simpler times. I envy you, my friend, I really do.

Hi Sandy

As I just pointed out in another thread, everyone seems intent on finding the real Gloria Calvery, after discovering the Calvery ID'ed just east of the Stemmons sign looks nothing like the real Calvery.

What everyone forgets is that, between March 19-20, 1964, Gloria Calvery, Karen Westbrook, Karan Hicks and Carol Reed all gave statements to the FBI in which each of them stated they were standing in a group with the other three. We know Calvery was misidentified but we have no way of knowing if the other three really are Westbrook, Hicks and Reed.

However, the chances of all four being the wrong people are quite slim, and one of the few possibilities remaining are that the FBI statements are fraudulent.

For some bizarre unknown reason, someone (or a group of someones) found it necessary to have Gloria Calvery on the north side of Elm St., just east of the Stemmons Freeway sign.

Who was this other woman, and where was the real Gloria Calvery?

I know, Robin but, the point I was trying to make is that there is not another group of five ladies between Calvery's group and the Stemmons sign. Correct?

Curiouser and curiouser.

Hi Bill

Let me begin by saying I agree with you 100%; the Hispanic/black looking woman popularly identified as Gloria Calvery does not look one BIT like the high school and wedding photos of Gloria Calvery.

Before you returned to this forum, we spent a great deal of effort trying to establish just where Calvery was at the time of the assassination, if that was not her standing with Dishong, Hicks, Westbrook and Reed. We also tried to determine if that long legged lady in the black skirt seen booking it for the TSBD at high speed in Darnell could be the short and slightly dumpy looking Gloria Calvery seen on her wedding day. We had about as much luck as they have had debating the PM/Oswald issue, and only ended up annoying each other.

It finally dawned on me that it was not really that important to find Calvery. What became more important was examining how hard someone (or a group of someones) worked at establishing that the Hispanic/black woman, seen in Zapruder and other films, was the oh-so-white Gloria Calvery.

I cannot seem to find a statement taken from June Dishong. However, Gloria Calvery, Carol Reed, Karan Hicks and Karen Westbrook all gave statements to the FBI dated 19-20 March, 1964. Each statement is practically a carbon copy of the other three (and I mean IDENTICAL, literally almost word for word), and each woman vouches for the presence of the other three at their position just east of the Stemmons Freeway sign.

Their statements to the FBI can be found at this site: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0355a.htm

Use the following numbers to locate their statements (last three digits)

Westbrook - 22H679

Hicks - 22H650

Reed - 22H668

Calvery - 22H638

As each of these four ladies vouches for the other three in her statement, it now becomes much more difficult to dismiss the statement of Gloria Calvery, and go looking for her elsewhere on Elm St. Now, I have never investigated Westbrook, Dishong, Reed and Hicks to see if they actually resemble the ladies identified as being them in the stills but, it would seem to me that the more people you involve in a fraud, the more difficult it becomes to maintain. OTOH, it would be great if one of the resident bloodhounds (hey Thomas!) would get on the trail of the other four ladies and see what turns up.

The woman ID'ed as Gloria Calvery seen standing below the "T" in "RIGHT". This photo clearly shows her group to be the only group of five ladies to the immediate east of the Stemmons Freeway sign.

So, did Gloria get to the steps before Lovelady and Shelley did? According to Lovelady she did.

21 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

Good question Bob

Where was Shelley after he came back from the tracks. ?

What time did Lovelady go up to the 6th floor after he came back from the tracks ?

 

THAT depends on whether or not you actually believe Shelley went down to the rail yard, as he claimed he did in his WC testimony. According to his 1st day statement, he went back inside the TSBD and phoned his wife after speaking to Gloria Calvery, and never said a thing about going to the rail yard.

" The Testimonies are contradictory to one another, that is part of the problem."

Once again, no kidding.

21 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

The Testimonies are contradictory to one another, that is part of the problem.

Now we're getting somewhere!

Wasn't Shelley inside all the time after the assassination?

Are you just pretending not to comprehend what I am saying, Robin? I can take a joke as well as the next guy but, I would appreciate it if we could have a serious discussion here.

Why do you think I would quote this part of Lovelady's testimony

" " Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes."

if I thought Lovelady and Shelley had already left for the rail yard as Baker approaches?

How could Calvery have beaten Baker to the steps? And, if Baker beat Calvery to the steps, how could Shelley and Lovelady leave the steps before Baker got there, if they testified to speaking to Gloria Calvery WHILE she was on the steps, prior to their leaving the steps??

21 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

That's the point, during the Baker run Lovelady and Shelly are standing over near the concrete island ?

 

NOT according to their WC testimonies. You will have to prove that to me. I do not believe that is Shelley and Lovelady seen in the film (Couch? Darnell?) walking down the Elm St. extension together; just as you do not believe PM is Oswald.

" Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes."

21 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

That's NOT Couch, it's Darnell

So it is. Now that we have that straight, the person whose head is just below PM's right elbow is my choice for Lovelady.

This was discussed on here before, and suddenly all of the stills of this person showed him to have dazzling white hair; much the same way Shelley and Lovelady, walking down Elm together, suddenly both acquired plaid coats.

21 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

If the running woman is NOT Gloria, how was it possible for Gloria to have run from her position watching the motorcade to the TSBD doorway, and then to have had a conversation with Lovelady and Shelley before they leave the steps,

and before Officer Baker starts to run from his parked motorcycle.

If the running woman WAS Gloria Calvery, it was still impossible for her to have a conversation with Lovelady and Shelley BEFORE Baker reached the steps. Watching the film (Couch or Darnell?) Baker is obviously going to beat Running Woman to the steps.

NO ONE is going to convince anyone here that Running Woman made it to the steps before Baker did.

Lovelady's head can be seen below PM's right elbow.

21 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

it's your assertion that the frame shows Lovelady bending over NOT mine.

the burden of proof is on you, NOT me

So get a lawyer and sue me if you're that upset.

21 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

the fritz notes "out with Bill Shelley in front" comment most likely does not refer to the assassination Timeline

but instead actually refers to the Timeline just prior to Lovelady going home.

Crop from the Bookhout report

 

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0322a.htm

Wow, pretty cool customer. Was Bookhout stating Oswald blew JFK's brains out, went downstairs, had lunch on the 1st floor, and then went outside and hung around with Shelley for five or ten minutes before heading home?

" Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.  "

I told you precisely where to look. It's not hard to see.

Please post the relevant Couch frame?? Are you serious? Find it yourself.

21 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

Bob

If the running woman is Gloria, then they could not have been on the steps during the encounter

because Shelley and Lovelady are near the concrete island as she runs past them ?

That is a strange form of logic, Robin. Based on a whimsical assumption that Running Woman was Gloria Calvery, are you suggesting both Shelley and Lovelady committed perjury?

It's in the Couch film.

We must be reading different WC testimonies for Lovelady and Shelley, Robin. In the ones I'm reading, they testified to remaining on the steps until Gloria Calvery came back to the steps and told them about the assassination. Even then, they did not leave immediately, but questioned her as to the veracity of her information before leaving.

21 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

I looked at Darnell and Couch films and read the Testimonies.

I see it this way.

Lovelady and Shelley leave the steps and start walking diagonally across the the concrete island, as they almost get there Gloria Calvery and Baker reach there position

as Gloria is running passed them crying she say's the president was shot and keeps running.

Lovelady said in his Testimony that someone yelled out, and then he turned around from his position near the concrete island, and saw Baker and Truly enter the TSBD

 

Lovelady and Shelley then proceeded to walk down to the railway tracks and returned a while later and entered the TSBD via the back entrance

at 12:50PM we see Lovelady in front of the steps in the Hughes and Martin films.

at 2:00 PM we see Lovelady and Oswald in the DPD

 

You deduced all of this from reading the testimonies of Lovelady and Shelley?