Robert Prudhomme

From the Warren Commission testimony of William Shelley, April 7, 1964:

" Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. "

" Mr. SHELLEY - Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together. 
Mr. BALL - And then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't think anything about it. 
Mr. BALL - What did it sound like to you?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn't real loud.
Mr. BALL - What happened; what did you do then? 
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't do anything for a minute.
Mr. BALL - What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound:? 
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like it came from the west. 
Mr. BALL - It sounded like it came from the west? 
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute. "

See the contradiction? Or is that just an honest witness having a wee bit of difficulty recalling the events?

21 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

Shelley Testimony:  11/22/63

Shelley's first day account of where he ran into Gloria Calvery crying

 

I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the president has been shot.

this girls name is Gloria Calvery

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As I said on the other thread, quite the glaring contradiction to his WC testimony, eh what?

22 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

Shelley Testimony:  11/22/63

Shelley's first day account of where he ran into Gloria Calvery crying

Quite the glaring contradiction to his WC testimony, eh what?

On 31/12/2016 at 2:15 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Bob,

Don't get all "paranoid again" quite yet.  LOL

As I said about a year ago, I believe that all of the FBI statements of the (100 or so) TSBD employees that were taken in early 1964 are legitimate, typed-up copies of the signed statements.

If I were you, I wouldn't lend too much credence to Thierry Speth's individual identifications of the gals in the "Calvary, Reed, Hicks, Westbrook" group, although the group itself (sans Calvary?) was, IMHO, probably where Speth said it was.

--  Tommy

I don't think I'm being paranoid at all, Thomas. (well, not too paranoid, anyways LOL)

After all, the very reason this forum exists is because a lot of us believe the official story is a prevaricated fabrication, and I don't believe for one second the FBI was above tampering with evidence.

There were five women in that group; June Dishong, Karen Westbrook, Gloria Calvery, Karan Hicks and Carol Reed.

So far, we know that all of them except for Dishong made statements to the FBI on March 19-20, 1964. I have been unable to find any statement or affidavit for Dishong, nor have I found any other affidavits from the other four women.

Despite their close proximity to the assassination, none of these women were called to testify before the WC.

Stan Dane at the ROKC found a high school photo of Karen Westbrook, She was eighteen years of age at the time of the assassination, and photos of her on Elm St. look very similar to her high school photo although no conclusive match can be made.

Gloria Calvery, captured on film on Elm St., looks nothing like her high school senior photo, although this is still a topic for debate in some circles. Calvery was twenty-one at the time of the assassination and the woman ID'ed as Calvery not only looks older, she also appears to be Hispanic or Black, while there is no doubt Calvery was white.

No one has turned up anything on Reed or Dishong yet, as far as I know.

The Karen (sic) Hicks whose photo you found in the HSCA report is a thin faced dark haired woman while the Karan Hicks by the Stemmons sign was blonde haired and somewhat full faced, making a match difficult but not impossible. The only other lead turned up on Hicks was by Stan Dane at the ROKC, who searched through Dallas yearbooks for a "Karan" the same age as Hicks. He found a Karan Snodgrass of the right age in the same yearbook as Karen Westbrook. Unfortunately, he did not post a photo at that time. Perhaps someone in contact with that site could ask Stan about this. Bart?

Anyways, despite the efforts of many of us to place Gloria Calvery somewhere else on Elm St., we have the sworn statements to the FBI of her and three other women placing them exactly where they claimed to be, that being the first group of women east of the Stemmons Freeway sign.

As I have asked before, if that is not Gloria Calvery seen with Dishong, Westbrook, Hicks and Reed, where was the real Gloria Calvery, and why did Westbrook, Hicks and Reed, as well as Gloria Calvery, swear statements to the FBI that this woman who was NOT Gloria Calvery was Gloria Calvery?

If that WAS actually Gloria Calvery seen with Dishong, Westbrook, Hicks and Reed, the evidence given by Lovelady and Shelley has some serious holes in it. There is film evidence showing the dark complected woman ID'ed as Calvery remained on the grassy area just east of the Stemmons Freeway for several minutes; LONG after Baker supposedly entered the TSBD. As Lovelady's and Shelley's testimonies, and Shelley's statement, are pivotal on making contact with Calvery before they saw Truly and Baker entering the TSBD, "Calvery's" remaining where she observed the assassination for several minutes after the last shot calls into question the veracity of the evidence given by Shelley and Lovelady.

On 31/12/2016 at 3:44 PM, Bill Miller said:

So this was just a 'filler' response?  

" I'm sorry but, I must have missed that memo. Would you mind terribly explaining how you reconciled their first day statements with their WC testimonies again? "

It might have been. What kind of punishment do I face for this faux pas?

Oh THAT photo. Sorry, had a hard day bucking and loading firewood for a lady friend of mine.

The evidence I am referring to is just about the only thing there is that gives us any indication of Bill Shelley's height. It is a photo of him in the uniform of a ROTC lieutenant in his senior year in high school. In this photo, Shelley is standing beside another ROTC lieutenant who towers over Shelley by about a foot.

With Bill Lovelady being 5'8" tall, Shelley would have to be, at the least, 5'9" to be seen as being taller than Lovelady in the Darnell film.

For Shelley to be 5'9", his fellow officer would have to be 6'9"; very uncommon for someone in 1945. If his fellow officer was 6'3", that would make Shelley 5'3", and, therefore, that would eliminate him as a candidate for the man seen in the Darnell film.

I hate to be a fly in the ointment but, I no more believe that is Shelley and Lovelady walking in Darnell than I believe PM is Oswald. I believe there is a strong possibility both are true but, as they say, BS don't pay for the whiskey. I need more proof and refuse to accept these things on faith. As you might have guessed, I am an atheist, too.

LOL Sorry, dude.

Where would I find the HSCA photo #39?

Karan Hicks made her statement to the FBI on March 20, 1964. Could they have married after the assassination? It seems like a remarkable coincidence for there to be two James Daniel Hicks at the same place.

Thomas

I tried to PM you but no luck.

As I said, the problem is the FBI statements of these women all place them exactly where this group of women is standing. If it was a "mistake", I'm starting to think the "mistake" began some time just after the assassination, and is being perpetuated to this day.

On a brighter note, everyone,  have written two letters in my quest to determine how tall Bill Shelley was in 1963. Bill passed away in 1996 but I believe I have, with the help of others, found an address for his son, William B. Shelley. I have also found the address for a journalist who interviewed Shelley in the early 1970's.

As you know, all evidence thus far indicates Shelley was a very short man; much shorter than the 5'8" Bill Lovelady. In the gif that is purported to be Shelley and Lovelady walking down the Elm St. extension, Shelley is obviously taller than Lovelady. If I receive proof of Shelley being a short man, this will disprove this gif.

He is directly in front of PM.

To be quite honest with you, Bill, I have been reading all of your posts and have not forgotten anything you have said. I just don't agree with anything you have said.

As I stated on another thread, your theories will only work if we completely ignore a good portion of the testimonies of Lovelady and Shelley. I simply cannot accept these methods as being sound.

Hi Thomas

According to this photo Carol Reed is the taller head scarf wearing woman.

And he makes Karan Hicks as the shorter blonde sans scarf.

Of course, he also makes Calvery to be an Hispanic/black woman so..........

Edit: unable to post photo with names below it.

22 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

The engaging in conversation from what was reported to have been said would have taken less than a few seconds.

So let me ask you a question .... Whether Gloria met Lovelady and Shelley while they still had their feet on the steps or had merely just started walking away from the steps ... tell me what difference would that point make in the grand scheme of things that would make that a deliberate sinister point concerning the event in question when we have it on film. You keep alluding to it as if these two men entered into some plot to deceive someone over the timing of when Gloria came running up to them. What would be the possible motive for that meeting being moved just a few seconds either way? I cannot see without there being something to gain from it that anyone would see the exact moment of meeting Calvery anything other than an innocent timing recollection. Hopefully you can enlighten me and others by explaining yourself.

Mr. LOVELADY - I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.
Mr. BALL - Who was this girl?
Mr. LOVELADY - Gloria Calvary.
Mr. BALL - Gloria Calvary?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Where does she work?
Mr. LOVELADY - Southwestern Publishing Co.
Mr. BALL - Where was the direction of the sound?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right there around that concrete little deal on that knoll.
Mr. BALL - That's where it sounded to you?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; to my right. I was standing as you are going down the steps, I was standing on the right, sounded like it was in that area.
Mr. BALL - From the underpass area?
Mr. LOVELADY - Between the underpass and the building right on that knoll.
Mr. BALL - I have got a picture here, Commission Exhibit 369. Are you on that picture?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Take a pen or pencil and mark an arrow where you are.
Mr. LOVELADY - Where I thought the shots are?
Mr. BALL - No; you in the picture.
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, here (indicating).
Mr. BALL - Draw an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. You got an arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you. Where were you when the picture was taken?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right there at the entrance of the building standing on the the step, would be here (indicating).
Mr. BALL - You were standing on which step?
Mr. LOVELADY - It would be your top level.
Mr. BALL - The top step you were standing there?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah.
Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.
Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley.
Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---
Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see anything there?
Mr. LOVELADY - No, sir; well, just people running.
Mr. BALL - That's all?
Mr. LOVELADY - And hollerin.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to go down there?
Mr. LOVELADY - I don't know, because everybody was running from that way and naturally, I guess---
Mr. BALL - They were running from that way or toward that way?
Mr. LOVELADY - Toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from that direction.
Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
Mr. BALL - How many steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25.
Mr. BALL - Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.
Mr. BALL - Then what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time.
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could.
Mr. BALL - Had people started to run?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.
Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run or walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Medium trotting or fast walk.
Mr. BALL - A fast walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Somebody hollered and I looked.
Mr. BALL - You turned around and looked?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did you go in the ordinary Small door?
Mr. LOVELADY - You know where we park our trucks--that door; we have a little door.
Mr. BALL - That is where you went in, that little door?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north end of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - That would be the west end, wouldn't it?
Mr. BALL - Is it the one right off Houston Street?
Mr. LOVELADY - No; you are thinking about another dock.
Mr. BALL - I am?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes; we have two.
Mr. BALL - Do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - East, and well, it would be east and west but you enter it from the south side.
Mr. BALL - Now, the south side---
Mr. LOVELADY - Elm Street is that little dead-end street.
Mr. BALL - That's south.
Mr. LOVELADY - I drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from this direction; that would have to be west.
Mr. BALL - You came into the building from the west side?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Through that, those raised-up doors.
Mr. BALL - Through the raised-up doors?
Mr. LOVELADY - Through that double door that we in the morning when we get there we raised. There's a fire door and they have two wooden doors between it.
Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie?
Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.
Mr. BALL - What is her full name?
Mr. LOVELADY - I wouldn't know.
Mr. BALL - Vickie Adams?
Mr. LOVELADY - I believe so.
Mr. BALL - Would you say it was Vickie you saw?
Mr. LOVELADY - I couldn't swear.
Mr. BALL - Where was the girl?
Mr. LOVELADY - I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl as she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what.
Mr. BALL - Did you see any other people on the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, yes; by that time there were more; a few of the guys had come in.
Mr. BALL - And you stayed on the first floor then?
Mr. LOVELADY - I would say 30 minutes. And one of the policemen asked me would I take them up on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL - Did you take them up there?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; I sure did.
Mr. BALL - Mr. Lovelady, your testimony will be written up and it can be submitted to you for your signature if you wish and you can make any changes, or you can waive signature and we will make this your final---
Mr. LOVELADY - I want this to be the final one.
Mr. BALL - All right; you waive signature?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Thanks very much.

It's quite simple, Bill.

Baker was on Houston St. when he heard the first shot. By the time he revved his motorcycle to make his dash to the TSBD, he had already heard the 2nd and 3rd shots. It is estimated, if you believe his testimony, it took no longer than twenty seconds for him to begin the dash until he was going through the front door of the TSBD. 

This means that, if you believe Lovelady's and Shelley's testimonies, there is only twenty seconds for Gloria Calvery, short as she was, to make her way from where she witnessed JFK being shot, down near the Stemmons sign, to the front steps of the TSBD. Still within this twenty seconds, she must tell S&L about the assassination PLUS answer a couple of their questions. STILL within this twenty seconds, S&L must then leave the steps of the TSBD and be 15-25 steps down the Elm St. extension when they looked back and saw Truly and Baker entering the TSBD together.

There simply just is not enough time for all of this to occur before Baker entered the building.

Capiche?

Bill Miller said:

" Using a measurement of distance those most people are familiar with ... it is 60feet from home plate to the pitchers mound at a baseball field. It is 90feet from home plate to first base. Shelley and Lovelady could have easily seen their co-worker coming  towards them crying and visibly upset to which they left the stairs and started towards her. The Darnell film shows two individuals meeting a running woman at a distance of around 3 car lengths from the stairs leading up to the entrance of the building. I have added a couple of photographs to offer a better snese as to just how close that meeting took place. At the same time - both men would be correct to say they had not yet left the front of the TSBD. But even if they had not been clear or left out that they started towards her - it would not take away from the timing of their meeting with co-worker Gloria Calvery. If it is truly Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady seen in the Darnell film (which seems probable), then the response given later in Shelley's testimony of it being three to four minutes having passed before encountering Gloria is simply a misstatement rather than some smoking gun. Three to four minutes was the total estimate of how long the two men were out in the Plaza before returning to the building. The notion that this was a slip-up from a script hardly by an actor seems rather absurd to me when Shelley had said several things that was in conflict with the official version of Lee being the assassin"

I'm sorry, Bill, but your theory does not work unless you completely ignore Bill Lovelady's testimony.

" Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say. 
Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time. 
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could. 
Mr. BALL - Had people started to run? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps. 
Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. "

Lovelady is quite clear about not leaving the steps until he and Shelley conversed with Gloria Calvery.

I do not see how you can interpret being on the steps with being in front of the TSBD.

On 31/12/2016 at 7:44 AM, Bill Miller said:

That was already explained with a detailed breakdown of their statements and how they played out with the Darnell film.

I'm sorry but, I must have missed that memo. Would you mind terribly explaining how you reconciled their first day statements with their WC testimonies again?

LOL Well it's not like there isn't an awful lot of assuming going on already, such as PM and the gif allegedly showing Shelley and Lovelady walking down the Elm St. extension together. We might as well join the club.

One of us is going to have to go back in a time machine and take some higher resolution videos of everything.

The problem is those darned FBI statements from these women. They place them on the north side of Elm, halfway to the TUP.  It looks like everyone else is accounted for.

LOL

Then how do you reconcile that part of their WC testimonies in which they both state they did not leave the TSBD steps until Gloria Calvery returned to the TSBD steps and engaged them in conversation?

The taller girl was Carol Reed. Karan Hicks was the shorter blonde seen crying in one of the film stills.

I can't recall where I saw it but it was mentioned somewhere that our Karan Hicks was not married to James Hicks. You never know with this whacky case, though.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uh oh, hang on. I just went back and read her FBI statement. She gives her name as Mrs. James Daniel (Karan) Hicks, 19 years of age. Maybe she is this guys wife, unless there was another James D. Hicks?

21 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Shelley had just told the order of events and how he and Lovelady saw Calvery running towards them - that they crossed over to the divider - that when they looked back that they saw Truly and Baker at the top step on their way into the building - and how they remained on the divider for about a minute before walking on towards the RR Yard. One might conclude from the timeline Shelley gave for he and Lovelady returning to the building three minutes later that Shelley simply misspoke about seeing Calvery minutes later following the shooting.

One might conclude a lot of things, if one merely skims over the evidence, as you have apparently done here.

You do realize that both Shelley and Lovelady testified to the WC that neither of them left the steps of the TSBD until Gloria Calvery had returned to these steps and engaged these men in conversation, don't you?

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/7461156

Never seen this before. Bill Shelley giving a statement to the FBI on March 18, 1964. Go to Page 20.