Robert Prudhomme

You sound about as bright as Baker.

Figured out the difference between the 3rd and 4th floors yet?

Thomas

Despite your pathetic attempts, you cannot escape the fact that, if Oswald heard Truly and Baker or Adams and Styles through the closed vestibule door, or any other part of the TSBD, then surely A & S and T & B could have all heard each other if they were all mere feet apart on the 2nd floor.

Give it a rest!

Bumped for Thomas

Oh yeah, they spent a good ten minutes wandering around the 3rd floor, Thomas. Now you're just getting stupid.

Adams and Styles, or the "four heels" as you refer to them, were even further away from Oswald than Truly and Baker, or else they would have met Truly and Baker below the 2nd floor landing, wouldn't they, bright boy? According to you, they are so far upstairs, Truly has time to stop on the stairs, return to the vestibule door, enter the vestibule and let the door close behind him, before they arrive at the 2nd floor landing. They must have barely started down from the 4th floor when T & B first arrived at the 2nd floor landing.

So, once again, how is Oswald suppose to hear all of this from so far away, through a closed door, when Adams, Styles, Truly and Baker can't hear each other through the same closed door, when they are mere feet from each other on the 2nd floor?

Try imaging the following things, Cowboy Bob:

"Lunch room ceiling, Third floor floor, Lunch room walls, 3" heels, Sounds, Two women walking across 3rd floor floor in 3" heels, Two women walking down wooden stairs from third floor floor to second floor floor in 3" heels, Wooden stairs, Wooden stairs, Wooden stairs, Darn vestibule door not completely soundproof after all (large glass pane does not block sound, etc), Hmmm. Two guys tromping up wooden stairs from first floor, Wooden stairs, Wooden stairs, Wooden Stairs, One of whom is wearing boots -- motorcycle boots!, Wooden stairs, Wooden stairs, Wooden ... "

--Tommy

Third floor? Come on, Thomas, you mean to say you don't even know that Adams and Styles watched the motorcade from the 4th floor?

Bumped for Thomas

Nothing like watching an LN so hard at work so late into the night.

Oh, but I forgot, none of them were listening.

Thomas

Despite your pathetic attempts, you cannot escape the fact that, if Oswald heard Truly and Baker or Adams and Styles through the closed vestibule door, or any other part of the TSBD, then surely A & S and T & B could have all heard each other if they were all mere feet apart on the 2nd floor.

Give it a rest!

Adams and Styles, or the "four heels" as you refer to them, were even further away from Oswald than Truly and Baker, or else they would have met Truly and Baker below the 2nd floor landing, wouldn't they, bright boy? According to you, they are so far upstairs, Truly has time to stop on the stairs, return to the vestibule door, enter the vestibule and let the door close behind him, before they arrive at the 2nd floor landing. They must have barely started down from the 4th floor when T & B first arrived at the 2nd floor landing.

So, once again, how is Oswald suppose to hear all of this from so far away, through a closed door, when Adams, Styles, Truly and Baker can't hear each other through the same closed door, when they are mere feet from each other on the 2nd floor?

Try imaging the following things, Cowboy Bob:

"Lunch room ceiling, Third floor floor, Lunch room walls, 3" heels, Sounds, Two women walking across 3rd floor floor in 3" heels, Two women walking down wooden stairs from third floor floor to second floor floor in 3" heels, Wooden stairs, Wooden stairs, Wooden stairs, Darn vestibule door not completely soundproof after all (large glass pane does not block sound, etc), Hmmm. Two guys tromping up wooden stairs from first floor, Wooden stairs, Wooden stairs, Wooden Stairs, One of whom is wearing boots -- motorcycle boots!, Wooden stairs, Wooden stairs, Wooden ... "

--Tommy

Third floor? Come on, Thomas, you mean to say you don't even know that Adams and Styles watched the motorcade from the 4th floor?

Adams and Styles, or the "four heels" as you refer to them, were even further away from Oswald than Truly and Baker, or else they would have met Truly and Baker below the 2nd floor landing, wouldn't they, bright boy? According to you, they are so far upstairs, Truly has time to stop on the stairs, return to the vestibule door, enter the vestibule and let the door close behind him, before they arrive at the 2nd floor landing. They must have barely started down from the 4th floor when T & B first arrived at the 2nd floor landing.

So, once again, how is Oswald suppose to hear all of this from so far away, through a closed door, when Adams, Styles, Truly and Baker can't hear each other through the same closed door, when they are mere feet from each other on the 2nd floor?

Yup. Totally surprised to hear anyone coming back into the TSBD. And, of course, he would have known ALL about the assassination. Maybe by osmosis?

Now, how is it Oswald is the only person who can hear anything through the vestibule door?

Going to threaten to cry and leave, as you do at ROKC on a regular basis?

And Oswald would care about someone coming up the stairs because........

He worked in a large building with many other people. Do you think he peed his pants every time he heard someone coming up the stairs??

From Richard Gilbride:

"The lunchroom doorframe was 7-8 feet from the vestibule doorframe. Truly described Baker as almost directly in the lunchroom doorframe, facingOswald, who was 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. He could see that Baker had his gun in Oswald's gut and he could see Oswald's facial expression. The point-of-view which enabled these details to be gleaned came about because he had moseyed up beside Baker, i.e. "When I reached there..."

Truly was afforded this view of Oswald when Baker turned back to ask Truly if he knew Oswald. It may have been 7 feet, at most, from vestibule door to lunchroom door but, when Truly leaned in through the doorway, with the door open, he would have reduced that to 4-5 feet; plenty close enough to see what was going on when Baker turned to speak to him.

"Baker also corroborated Truly in that he left "immediately" after hearing Truly's "yes", but he also estimated the elapsed time (between first sighting Oswald and then heading for upstairs) as 30 seconds (III p. 258)."

The majority of that 30 seconds was taken up by Baker confronting Oswald, Truly realizing he wasn't being followed up the stairs and Truly returning to the vestibule door. I still maintain Truly was in the vestibule no longer than 4-5 seconds, requiring the automatic closer to be VERY fast, as Adams and Styles would require time to cross the 2nd floor landing.

"When Truly, 2-3 steps up toward the 3rd floor, realizes that Baker is not following him and heads for the vestibule door-

Adams & Styles are already beginning their descent down the stairs from the 3rd floor.

Truly, even if he heard their high heels resonating from the stairwell behind him, would be more concerned with determining what Baker was doing."

Truly would have heard Adams and Styles coming down the stairs but was more concerned about Baker and, therefore, this would not register in his brain?? Seriously, Richard? This is a joke, right?

"And the vestibule door remained closed for 8-10-12 or more seconds out of Baker's estimated 30 seconds. And the time period that Truly was inside the vestibule was the time period that Adams & Styles passed by on the landing."

It may have remained closed for this period of time but, that would have been before Truly entered the foyer. Truly himself was in and out of there so quickly, the door was probably still closing when they headed up the stairs again.

"And even if Truly had heard their muffled high heels, he had no cause to mention that- in fact, he had cause not to mention that. And even if Baker had heard their muffled high heels, his focus was on the suspect in front of him."

You are allowing your unjustified bias against Roy Truly to cloud your perspective of reality.

"Adams' focus was on getting downstairs and outside and with the vestibule door closed she had no reason to think that anyone was inside there, i.e. no reason to attune her ears to a muffled conversation going on inside. Besides, she apparently heard the elevator cables moving while on the 2nd-floor landing and her attention was drawn to that."

Your opinion again, and totally unsupported, as Adams herself admitted to having a great curiosity. And what a coincidence, that the elevator should begin moving just after Truly heard voices in the vestibule. If the elevator had started up earlier, he might never have found Baker.

"From the beginning I have maintained that this newly-installed, heavy-duty door was put in place to help muffle sounds from the landing and stairwell, so that people in the lunchroom could eat in relative peace and quiet."

And yet, Truly had no trouble hearing Baker and Oswald through this door. Perhaps it was still closing when Truly returned to the landing, making it a slow closing automatic door closer. Of course, that would have made the door still open when Adams and Styles came through. Which do you prefer?

"And then, Robert, you present a scenario where Baker has to make a "wide sweep" of the 2nd-floor landing in order to catch a glimpse of Oswald in the plate-glass window- as if he were a horse with blinders following Truly, and could never turn his head to look to the right."

Wrong again, Richard, and I believe you know better, but are just pretending you don't. Baker would be making a hard left turn, at the top of the stairs, in order to follow Truly to the 3rd floor stairs. From the vantage point of the top of the stairs, the window in the vestibule door does not line up with the lunch room door, and he would not be able to see into the lunch room. If he tried to make a big sweep to the right, in order to inspect the room, he would have run into the boxes seen in this photo:

Hi, Bob!

And what if Oswald was standing real close to that large window, looking through it to see who was loudly coming up the stairs in motorcycle boots (or in "heels" coming down)? Do you think Baker could have seen Oswald as he turned away from the window and started walking back into the lunch room?

Hmmm?

--Tommy

I thought no one could hear people on the stairs through that door.

From Richard Gilbride:

"The lunchroom doorframe was 7-8 feet from the vestibule doorframe. Truly described Baker as almost directly in the lunchroom doorframe, facingOswald, who was 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. He could see that Baker had his gun in Oswald's gut and he could see Oswald's facial expression. The point-of-view which enabled these details to be gleaned came about because he had moseyed up beside Baker, i.e. "When I reached there..."

Truly was afforded this view of Oswald when Baker turned back to ask Truly if he knew Oswald. It may have been 7 feet, at most, from vestibule door to lunchroom door but, when Truly leaned in through the doorway, with the door open, he would have reduced that to 4-5 feet; plenty close enough to see what was going on when Baker turned to speak to him.

"Baker also corroborated Truly in that he left "immediately" after hearing Truly's "yes", but he also estimated the elapsed time (between first sighting Oswald and then heading for upstairs) as 30 seconds (III p. 258)."

The majority of that 30 seconds was taken up by Baker confronting Oswald, Truly realizing he wasn't being followed up the stairs and Truly returning to the vestibule door. I still maintain Truly was in the vestibule no longer than 4-5 seconds, requiring the automatic closer to be VERY fast, as Adams and Styles would require time to cross the 2nd floor landing.

"When Truly, 2-3 steps up toward the 3rd floor, realizes that Baker is not following him and heads for the vestibule door-

Adams & Styles are already beginning their descent down the stairs from the 3rd floor.

Truly, even if he heard their high heels resonating from the stairwell behind him, would be more concerned with determining what Baker was doing."

Truly would have heard Adams and Styles coming down the stairs but was more concerned about Baker and, therefore, this would not register in his brain?? Seriously, Richard? This is a joke, right?

"And the vestibule door remained closed for 8-10-12 or more seconds out of Baker's estimated 30 seconds. And the time period that Truly was inside the vestibule was the time period that Adams & Styles passed by on the landing."

It may have remained closed for this period of time but, that would have been before Truly entered the foyer. Truly himself was in and out of there so quickly, the door was probably still closing when they headed up the stairs again.

"And even if Truly had heard their muffled high heels, he had no cause to mention that- in fact, he had cause not to mention that. And even if Baker had heard their muffled high heels, his focus was on the suspect in front of him."

You are allowing your unjustified bias against Roy Truly to cloud your perspective of reality.

"Adams' focus was on getting downstairs and outside and with the vestibule door closed she had no reason to think that anyone was inside there, i.e. no reason to attune her ears to a muffled conversation going on inside. Besides, she apparently heard the elevator cables moving while on the 2nd-floor landing and her attention was drawn to that."

Your opinion again, and totally unsupported, as Adams herself admitted to having a great curiosity. And what a coincidence, that the elevator should begin moving just after Truly heard voices in the vestibule. If the elevator had started up earlier, he might never have found Baker.

"From the beginning I have maintained that this newly-installed, heavy-duty door was put in place to help muffle sounds from the landing and stairwell, so that people in the lunchroom could eat in relative peace and quiet."

And yet, Truly had no trouble hearing Baker and Oswald through this door. Perhaps it was still closing when Truly returned to the landing, making it a slow closing automatic door closer. Of course, that would have made the door still open when Adams and Styles came through. Which do you prefer?

"And then, Robert, you present a scenario where Baker has to make a "wide sweep" of the 2nd-floor landing in order to catch a glimpse of Oswald in the plate-glass window- as if he were a horse with blinders following Truly, and could never turn his head to look to the right."

Wrong again, Richard, and I believe you know better, but are just pretending you don't. Baker would be making a hard left turn, at the top of the stairs, in order to follow Truly to the 3rd floor stairs. From the vantage point of the top of the stairs, the window in the vestibule door does not line up with the lunch room door, and he would not be able to see into the lunch room. If he tried to make a big sweep to the right, in order to inspect the room, he would have run into the boxes seen in this photo:

I imagine the pile of boxes kept going to the right of this photo, limiting Baker's "sweep" to the narrow lane seen above.

As I expected, you have left out one of the key points of Truly's testimony; that Roy Truly returned onto the 2nd floor landing and was able to hear the voices of Oswald and Baker; supposedly through a closed vestibule door that was, according to you, "...put in place to help muffle sounds from the landing and stairwell...". I guess it must have still been closing when Truly returned to the landing.

Could someone explain to me how to go about putting a member on "Ignore"?

See how the vertical row of icons, that mostly contains the nick, has a round icon as the number 5 icon (counting from the bottom)? By matching up the tie knot, as worn by JFK in this black and white photo, with the knot Ashton has tied from the Archives photo tie, the row of icons with the nick can only match the B & W photo row of icons on JFK's anatomical right; IF we believe the tie was only five icons wide at this point.

This now places the nick closer to the centre of the tie knot, and away from the edge of the tie knot. As we have determined already that the nick only goes through the coloured portion of the tie, and not through what appears to be a white backing layer in the tie, placing the nick in the position above eliminates the possibility of this nick being caused by a projectile; either entering or exiting JFK's throat, as this would have made a hole completely through the tie.

If we eliminate a projectile as the cause of this nick, we then must find something else that made this nick.

The only possible explanation so far has been put forward by Ashton Gray.

Somehow you missed my explanation. Or dismissed it.

Suppose there are indeed only 5 icons per row in the nick area. If you take the way Ashton positioned it, but rotate the nick area to JFK's right by 120 degrees, that places the nick squarely in the middle of the BACK side of the knot.

This scenario would indicate that a fragment exited the throat wound, made the holes through the shirt, and nicked the back of the tie. I envision the fragment wasting its final bit of energy pushing the knot away from JFK's chest, before coming to a stop and falling down.

Well, this is always possible, too. What I find most interesting about the nick is that it is so long horizontally, and the holes in the collar, once highlighted, are much rounder; indicating a round fragment or a bullet. The long nick would be a result of the tie material being folded almost in half at the left outer edge of the tie.

JFK was shot in the throat from the front right below his adams apple.

That's a provable fact established by the physical evidence and the Dealey Plaza witnesses and photos/film.

The rest of this discussion is nothing but fake debate.

Did the projectile go over or through the collar, Cliff?

Here is a REALLY dumb question. Has anyone ever seen the back side of the section of tie with the nick in it, or seen a photo of the back side of the tie?

We are assuming the defect does not go all of the way through the tie, simply because this is what we have been told. Can we prove this?

deleted

See how the vertical row of icons, that mostly contains the nick, has a round icon as the number 5 icon (counting from the bottom)? By matching up the tie knot, as worn by JFK in this black and white photo, with the knot Ashton has tied from the Archives photo tie, the row of icons with the nick can only match the B & W photo row of icons on JFK's anatomical right; IF we believe the tie was only five icons wide at this point.

This now places the nick closer to the centre of the tie knot, and away from the edge of the tie knot. As we have determined already that the nick only goes through the coloured portion of the tie, and not through what appears to be a white backing layer in the tie, placing the nick in the position above eliminates the possibility of this nick being caused by a projectile; either entering or exiting JFK's throat, as this would have made a hole completely through the tie.

If we eliminate a projectile as the cause of this nick, we then must find something else that made this nick.

The only possible explanation so far has been put forward by Ashton Gray. According to him, an assassin, armed with a syringe sporting a 1/4" diameter needle, injected an untraceable poison into JFK's throat at the level of the 3rd tracheal ring which, coincidentally, is precisely the preferred location for a tracheostomy site. To explain the nick that does not go completely through the tie, Mr. Gray hypothesizes that the assassin, in haste and carelessness, first accidentally inserted the tip of the 1/4" needle into JFK's tie knot in his attempt to insert this needle through JFK's collar, realized his mistake, pulled the tie aside and then inserted the needle through his collar and into his throat; ultimately injecting the poison there.

There are a number of problems with this theory.

First, the blood stain on the tie.

I don't know about the rest of you but, I find it a bit spooky that there is blood on the coloured part of the tie while the backing material, seen through the nick, is still a nice sparkling white. Also, if the nick was on the front of the tie knot, why is the spread of the blood stain, seen above in the Archives photo, contained to what would be the front and left edge of the tie? If it was coming from a hole made in the shirt collar, shouldn't we see a blood stain extending all the way to the top of the photo, as the material near the top of the photo would have been at the back of the tie knot, and in contact with the shirt?

In order for a 1/4" diameter needle to take a nick out of a tie, it would have to be extremely sharp. I don't know if all of you can comprehend just how big a 1/4" needle is but, I can tell you that it is huge. I work with copper and plastic tubing a lot, and I cannot imagine using a needle this big. Anyways, if this needle was so sharp it was able to cut out a plug of tie material (an oblong one at that) why did it make a ragged tear in the right side of JFK's trachea? For that matter, how did such a sharp round tipped instrument make a tear in the side of the trachea at all? A tear like that is more indicative of something passing through at a high velocity.

But getting back to the tie, here is how to place the nick on the anatomical left side of JFK's tie knot. Looking at Ashton's tie knot, simply add a square icon to the top of the vertical row containing the nick, making it six icons high. This vertical row now has six icons (the prevailing number of icons seen on the rest of the tie) in it with a square icon at its top. It now matches the row of icons seen on the anatomical left of JFK's tie knot in this photo below, and the nick would be on the left edge of the tie knot:

"And then the thread derails into Gloria Calvery, more than half of that thread is about her, your Gloria."

You simply do not have the smarts to see that everything about the timing of Baker's entry into the TSBD hinges on when Calvery arrived at the steps.

From Sandy Larsen:

1. "Therefore, the 6th icon that seems to be on the front of the knot must really be on a different part of the knot. Which leaves only 5 icons per row on the front of the knot"
   

Please read Post # 388 again, and see why this is not possible.

Only in your mind, Thomas.

Sorry, Tom, but I see six icons in each vertical row; perfectly aligned in two vertical rows.

Here is something else to think about. Look again at the Archives photo:

While it may appear that, in this photo, five rows vertically may be the same measurement as five rows horizontally, this is not actually the case. Being a tie, it is only natural that, through several wearings, the tie would be stretched lengthwise.

I measured the middle horizontal row in this photo, using a ruler up against my monitor, and found it to be 77 mm from the outside edge of one outside icon to the outside edge of the other outside icon.

I then measured the middle vertical row in this photo in the same way, and found it to be 114 mm icon to icon. This is to be expected, as this row of icons is running lengthwise on the tie, and prone to stretching with wear.

Any lengthwise stretching will also tend to compress the rows of icons running across the tie.

So, in this photo of the tie,

the two vertical rows of icons on the face of the knot are in the group of icons that measured 114 mm/five icons, while, according to you, the two single icons above them are in a vertical section of tie, and belong to the group of icons that measured 77 mm/five icons.

With such a difference in spacing between horizontal and vertical rows, how is it that all six icons are aligned so perfectly? Shouldn't the top two icons be noticeably closer to each other?