Robert Prudhomme

As if all of this is not bad enough, how did Baker actually see Oswald through the small pane of glass in the vestibule door?

Click on the diagram below to enlarge it.

If you take a straight edge ruler and line up Baker's position at the top of the stairs with the position Oswald was in when spotted by Baker, you will see that the vestibule door window was nowhere near Baker's line of sight, and that he could not have seen Oswald from the top of the stairs. As he was following hard on Truly's heels, he would naturally make a hard left turn as he left the stairs, and his line of sight would be even further away from being able to see Oswald.

Now, it can be argued that Baker was a good cop, and that he would have made a wide sweep of the landing in his search for bad guys. However, tere are a couple of things wrong with this argument.

First, Baker was in a hurry to get to the roof. As the 2nd floor landing was not a big room at all, would he make a wide sweep, or would he sweep the room with his eyes?

The second problem with the "wide sweep" argument can be seen in the photo below:

This is the view Baker would have had as he emerged from the stairwell onto the 2nd floor landing, although, judging by the angle of the wall, I believe the photographer is actually further away from the stairs than the diagram above shows us as Baker's position.

How did Baker make a "wide sweep" with all of those boxes stacked there?

Okay, I think it is time to counter the arguments Mr. Gilbride has put forth.

Mr. Gilbride's belief that the 2nd floor lunch room encounter between Baker/Truly and Oswald actually occurred is dependent on four things. In reading these four points, remember that Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles, both in 3 inch heels, had to pass through the 2nd floor landing, undetected (and not seeing or hearing Truly and Baker) with nothing more than the vestibule door between them and Baker & Truly.

The points are:

1) That Roy Truly actually went through the vestibule door and allowed it to close behind him.

2) That the automatic closer on the vestibule door was a very fast closer.

3) That the vestibule door was completely soundproof.

4) That Truly and Baker were on the other side of the vestibule door long enough to allow Adams and Styles to pass through the 2nd floor landing, undetected.

Using these four points, I am going to demonstrate why the 2nd floor lunch room did not happen.

Frazier repeats his claim of seeing Oswald after 12:30 in this interview recorded by the Sixth Floor on 7/13/2013.

http://www.c-span.org/video/?313792-1/lee-harvey-oswald-kennedy-assassination

Comments begin at the 34:30 mark.

(When asked if he saw Oswald after the shooting) "I did. This was, oh, I don't know exactly how many minutes later, but the lady I was standing next to - some of the people - Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady - they went down toward the Triple Underpass. Because before they went down there, a lady come by - a woman came by - and she was crying and she said that somebody has shot the President. And so, we looked bewildered, and I turned to Sarah and she said 'She said somebody has shot the President.' And I said 'I thought that's what she said.' She said 'She did say that.' So we stood there for a few minutes and I walked down to the first step where Billy was standing down there at the bottom of the steps. I looked around and it was just total chaos there. And then from there I started to go down to see if I could find Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady. And there was so much chaos down there I said, 'Well I better go back to where - back to the steps. And I did. I walked back to the bottom of the steps and then I walked out to the corner of the building right there where Houston comes up the side of the building. And I was talking to someone - it was a lady - and I looked to my left and come walking along the side of the Texas Schoolbook building was Lee Oswald."

Moderator Stephen Fagin: "Walking along this side of the building? Houston Street?"

Frazier: "Yes. Yes. Houston Street. So he'd come around from off the dock there. So he walks up, and I'm talking to this lady. He didn't say anything. And he crosses Houston. I watch him cross Houston as I was talking to the lady. And he gets over to the other side of Houston and then he crosses Elm. And somebody said something to me and I turned - and he was about halfway across the street - and when I turned back he was gone in the crowd. I don't know what happened to him."

This certainly contradicts Buell Wesley Frazier's testimony to the Warren Commission:

"Mr. BALL - You didn't see the President's car at the time you heard the sound?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL - But you stood right there, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right. Stood right where I was.

Mr. BALL - And Mr. Shelley was still standing there?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

Mr. BALL - And also Billy Lovelady?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place?

Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.

Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?

Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there?

Mr. BALL - A police officer.

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.

Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right."

Hi Sandy

Here is the Altgens 6 photo, with A.J. Millican in his hard hat, seen near what I thought was the easternmost lamp post before reaching the TSBD entrance.

As I pointed out earlier, there is a traffic lamp post on the concrete island, but Thomas tells us that one does not count.

"How do you know that the motorcycle cop she saw in front of the TSBD was Baker? Maybe she didn't get there until several minutes after the assassination, by which time another motorcycle policeman or motorcycle policemen might have appeared upon the scene." [T. Graves]

Here is your first clue, Thomas. What do you usually find with a motorcycle cop? [bobby P.]

Gosh, Bobby.

Beats the heck outta me. Hmmm.

A donut?

Another motorcycle cop?

--Tommy

Motorcycle cops typically arrive on motorcycles. Was there another motorcycle outside the TSBD?

From Thomas Graves:

"In the Willis photo, below, disregard the circled-in-red "Black Dog Man" for the moment, but please do note blond-haired Karan Hicks standing "under" the Stemmons Freeway sign, between Carolyn Reed and "Gloria Calvary." Peggy Joyce Hawkins was probably 40 feet up the sidewalk from Hicks."

By "up the sidewalk", I assume you mean toward the TSBD entrance. This would place Hawkins and her four year old child between "Gloria Calvery" and A.J. Millican, who is standing near the easternmost lamp post.

Unless I misinterpreted you, and you meant that Hawkins was closer to the TUP than Calvery, we should be able to see Ms. Hawkins in Don Roberdeau's Zapruder still, seen below:

Now, this may seem strange, and I'll be damned if I can see it now but, I seem to recall a post on this forum, from a long time ago, about observing the movements of a small child next to one of the women numbered and labelled here. Is it possible Gloria Calvery is not the only misidentified person in this photo?

"And what makes you think that "the retaining wall" Hawkins took refuge behind was the short wall across Elm Street Extension from the TSBD? Because it "works" with your theory-in-progress?"

Uh, no, Thomas, I think it has more to do with there being only one retaining wall in that immediate area.

"How do you know that the motorcycle cop she saw in front of the TSBD was Baker? Maybe she didn't get there until several minutes after the assassination, by which time another motorcycle policeman or motorcycle policemen might have appeared upon the scene."

Here is your first clue, Thomas. What do you usually find with a motorcycle cop?

"

From the WC testimony of Linda Willis:

<quote on, emphasis added>

Mr. Liebler: Did you hear any shots, or what you later learned to be shots, as the motorcade came past you there?

Miss Willis: Yes; I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two real fast bullets together.

When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of

slumped forward, and then I couldn't tell where the second shot went.

<quote off>

From the WC testimony of Nellie Connally:

<quote on, emphasis added>

Mrs. Connally:...I heard a noise, and not being an expert rifleman, I was not aware that it was

a rifle. It was just a frightening noise, and it came from the right. I turned over my right shoulder

and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck.

Mr. Specter: And you are indicating with your own hands, two hands crossing over gripping your own neck?

Mrs. Connally: Yes; and sit seemed to me there was--he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood,

no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down.

<quote off>

From the WC testimony of Clint Hill:

<quote on, emphasis added>

Mr. Specter: Now, what is your best estimate of the speed of the President's automobile as it turned left off of Houston

onto Elm Street?

Mr. Hill: We were running still 12 to 15 miles per hour, but in the curve I believe we slowed down maybe to 10, maybe to

9...Well, as we came out of the curve, and began to straighten up, I was viewing the area which looked to be a park. There

were people scattered throughout the entire park. And I heard a noise from my right rear, which to me seemed to be a

firecracker. I immediately looked to my right and, in so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential limousine and I saw

President Kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward and to the left...

<quote off>

The Zapruder film shows JFK reacting to throat trauma from the first shot:

From the HSCA analysis of the neck x-ray:

<quote on>

Evaluation of the pre-autopsy film shows that there is some subcutaneous or interstitial

air overlying the right C7 and T1 transverse processes. There is disruption of the integrity

of the transverse process of T1, which, in comparison with its mate on the opposite side

and also with the previously taken film, mentioned above, indicates that there has been a

fracture in that area. There is some soft tissue density overlying the apex of the right

lung which may be hematoma in that region or other soft tissue swelling.

Evaluation of the post-autopsy film shows that there is subcutaneous or interstitial air overlying

C7 and T1. The same disruption of T1 right transverse process is still present.

On the film of the right side, taken post-autopsy,there are two small metallic densities in the

region of the C7 right transverse process. These densities are felt to be artifact, partly because

of their marked density, because there is a similar artifact overlying the body of C7, and because

these metallic-like densities were not present on the previous, pre-autopsy film. Therefore, I

assume that these are screen artifacts from debris present in the cassette at the time that

this film was exposed.

<quote off>

Several years ago I was curious about the trajectory of the air pocket over-laying the C7 and T1 transverse processes.

I asked James Gordon if he could show what a T1 to C7 trajectory looked like on his anatomical model and he came up with

this:

The air-pocket points directly to the throat entrance.

Hi Cliff

Thanks for that post. What you and Gil Jesus present is also a very real possibility, dependent, of course, on whether or not there was a trajectory that would line up with a shot through the windshield. It also depends on whether or not someone would deliberately shoot through a sloping windshield.

What I also found interesting in your post starts at about 5:10 in Mr. Jesus' film. I believe we are looking at a photo of the tie; still knotted but with the left neck loop severed. On the lower anatomical left of the knot is a yellow circle around what I presume would be the "nick", although it appears to me this "nick" is not actually at the edge of the tie.

Considering that a shot through the tie knot would likely show up on several parts of the tie, once un-knotted, can this spot circled in the film be the actual nick?

What do you believe caused the nick in the tie?

I don't know.

The visual evidence indicates that it was something sharp enough to slice through a single layer of the tie in a short line.

The visual evidence indicates that the slice in the tie is not inconsistent with whatever sliced through the several layers of shirt underneath the tie.

The visual evidence indicates that the slits in the shirt—allowing for the flexile nature of the fabric in the two sides of the shirt—are not inconsistent with the placement of the wound in the throat.

The visual evidence therefore suggests strongly that the nick in the tie, the shirt slits, and the throat wound all were created by the same item, whatever it was.

The forensic analysis of the shirt slits has eliminated a bullet as the cause, as documented in this thread.

You say it was a bone fragment. I'm not convinced that it was. If it was, it is unfortunate for all of us that it coincidentally created a hole that was mistaken by a host of medical personnel as a bullet wound, then created neat little slits in the shirt.

Ashton

Hi Ashton

I'm not totally convinced it was a bone fragment either. I threw this possibility out there to see how it fared, and if anyone else had input on this possibility.

If the throat wound was caused by something travelling at high speed, either into JFK or out of JFK, a bone fragment would seem to be a strong contender at this point, as well as the blood soluble poison flechettes often brought up in these discussions.

However, can we completely rule out a bullet or bullet fragment? I know that spectrographic analysis has shown there was evidence of bullet jacket metal in the bullet hole in the back of JFK's shirt, and no evidence of the same metal in the material of the collar but, is this conclusive?

If a bullet or fragment of a bullet was travelling through the flesh of JFK's neck, it would make sense that it would be coated, at the very least, in blood as it neared the supposed exit wound in the throat. As the skin is quite thin just below the larynx, is there a possibility this bullet or fragment exited JFK's throat with a coating of organic material still on it?

Is it possible this bullet or fragment passed through JFK's collar and deposited only organic material on the way through?

It's times like these I wish there was a forensic investigator posting here, experienced with entrance wounds, exit wounds and what gets deposited by a bullet on its way in and out. We might find out it is perfectly normal for a bullet not to leave traces of metal on clothing if it has a layer of blood on it as it passes through that clothing.

If she was between the light poles, as we see them in the drawing you linked to, we should be able to find her, either in a Zapruder still or one of the photos of that area.

I would tend to think she would be closer to the TSBD entrance. The retaining wall runs from the pergola all the way up to the concrete pillar next to the concrete island, as seen in the drawing you linked to. It is lowest near the island, and she could have jumped over it. Or, she may have considered the concrete pillar as part of the retaining wall, and simply ducked behind it.

It is interesting that you pointed out, in the post-assassination still of Calvery, Hicks and Reed, that there is a small person standing with three ladies in the background of this photo, over near the pergola. However, as Mrs. Hawkins' child was only four years old, and this person is easily up to the shoulders of the three ladies, I think this person might be a bit big for a normal four year old.

Edit; It just occurred to me that the traffic light pole on the island might be considered one of the poles, placing her much closer to the TSBD, and out of Zapruder's camera's view.

In an FBI memo, the damage to the tie is described as "a HOLE in the outer layer of the tie that exposes the white inner lining". So there's a HOLE in the outer layer, and a NICK in the tie...

I was, after all, only having a bit of fun, but a "HOLE in the outer layer" is merely a restatement of a NICK in the holy tie, and neither is a "hole through the tie." I believe that we all now are in agreement on this point. I sure hope so.

Does everyone agree that the 'stain' is a dried blood clot?

No.

Ashton

What do you believe caused the nick in the tie?

"Between the light poles" and "150 (?) from the TSBD"

Interesting way to locate a witness. She could not have been too far down Elm St. if she was able to get behind the retaining wall so quickly.

Hi Tom

It does look like a dried blood stain, now that you mention it.

I am reluctantly beginning to lean toward the implement that caused all this damage as being a sharp little piece of bone from somewhere in the C3 and C4 cervical vertebrae. I know this may sound crazy but, all of the evidence points toward this.

1. Jerrol Custer (x-ray tech at Bethesda autopsy), in his deposition to the HSCA, stated that the x-ray he saw of JFK's neck showed many small metallic fragments in the vicinity of cervical vertebrae C3/C4.

2. Lt. Richard Lipsey, observing the autopsy, stated in his deposition the belief a bullet entered the back and went down either into the chest or abdominal cavity, and another bullet struck JFK low in the back of the skull, sending a fragment of bullet out through the throat. As Lt. Lipsey had no medical background, it can only be surmised this information came from the doctors performing the autopsy.

3. As reported earlier, a spectrographic analysis of the slits in the shirt collar turned up no traces of bullet metal, while the same test on the hole in the back of the shirt showed evidence of copper bullet jacket.

4. The "nick" in the tie looks too coarse and rounded to have been made by a scalpel.

A frangible bullet either glances off the base of the skull or goes through the lower base of the skull and impacts the spine at C3/C4; disintegrating the bullet and sending a bone particle through the trachea, throat and collar, nicking the tie on its way by. The sharpness of the bone particle might account for the slits in the collar, and might explain why some described the throat wound as appearing ragged. It would be expected that a non-deformed FMJ bullet would leave a very clean and smooth exit wound.

I've been looking at every photo I can find of JFK in a shirt and tie, both on 22/11/63 and on other dates. Between the man's physique and the style of shirts he wore, every photo seems to show him with the collar of his shirt high up on his neck and the knot of his tie against his Adam's apple or larynx.

The tear in JFK's trachea was at the 3rd tracheal ring, well below the larynx, as seen above. Also seen above is the correct tracheostomy site, with the incision made between the 2nd and 3rd tracheal rings, although this can be modified slightly to suit individual cases. Even though Perry may have made the incision at the same level as the tracheal tear, the tube is well down into the trachea, and the inflatable cuff is seen at the level of the 5th, 6th and 7th tracheal rings, guaranteeing a seal well below the tear in the trachea.

While all of this makes sense, it places the throat wound, to me anyways, below the top of the collar and the top of the tie knot.

So far, I have seen no evidence stating whether the nick in the tie was with that section of the tie on top (level with the top of the tie knot) or on the bottom, to the left of the tie knot.

However, I do have another question. If this bullet went through the right side of JFK's trachea, and then went through the neck band of his tie on the left side of the tie knot, would this not suggest a bullet travelling in a right to left direction through JFK, and likely headed toward Greer?

How did this bullet end up hitting Connally in the right armpit?

If those slits lie overtop one another when the shirt was buttoned up, the nurse with the scalpel made that gash through three layers of shirt; a single layer on the button side and a double layer on the button hole side.

It is a little frightening to think this might have been done just to remove a tie. As I said earlier, did no one think of loosening the tie a few inches first?

Robert,

How about a little experiment? As I understand it, you go shooting so own guns? How about getting an old shirt and firing a (reduced velocity) bullet through it in the same position as the slits in JFK's shirt appear and see if you can replicate those slits? Maybe post photos of the results?

I suppose I could do the shirt collar up around a small roast, and fire a bullet through that. Thing is, I'll have to get hold of some full metal jacket ammunition, as a soft point bullet might begin to expand as it travels through the roast.

Of course, there is also the problem of getting a roast out of the freezer without getting crucified by the old lady.

I wonder how that hole or nick or whatever we would like to call it got into the tie. Looks a bit ragged for a scalpel cut, wouldn't you say?

P.S.

Hate to keep pointing things out to you Ashton but, if you can see daylight through something, as is possible with the tie, that pretty much qualifies it as a hole.

Is it daylight? Isn't it the white 'filler' within the the tie that we see through a hole in the outer fabric of the tie?

Good point, Ian. I assumed I could see the background material through a hole, but closer examination shows there to be white fibrous material in that "hole".

Sandy,

My point was that nobody but Truly, Lovelady/Shelley, and Saunders said they saw Baker running, period, which suggests that very few people were paying attention to what was going on around them there on the "island," in the Elm Street Extension, on the sidewalk in front of the TSBD, and on the TSBD front steps. Clearly, obviously, they were paying more attention to the cars and motorcycles (with sirens on?) speeding down Elm Street, and to what was going on down there on the Grassy Knoll. You know, photographers taking pictures of spectators who had thrown themselves on the ground, etc?

Robert's argument that Pauline Saunder's FBI statement was "cooked" is based on the unfortunate fact that it doesn't jibe with his theory-in-progress, and because it didn't have Saunder's signature on it. I tried to show him that what we were looking at was just an unsigned copy of her signed statement, but it was like trying to make a horse drink after you've led it to water.

--Tommy

Well, Thomas, Ms. Hawkins was obviously paying attention, and saw a motorcycle cop in front of the TSBD; even when he was not running and long after he was supposedly out there. Care to address that for a minute?

How many of these witnesses on the concrete island, the Elm St. extension and the sidewalk in front of the TSBD were called to testify to the WC?

I don't think Thomas quite appreciates the full implications of Ms. Hawkins' statement. She seems to believe the motorcycle parked at the curb and the motorcycle cop in front of the TSBD belonged to each other. Could that be because Baker was the only officer in front of the TSBD in a white helmet, pretty much making him the owner of the motorcycle by default?

Thank God Ms. Hawkins had a small child, and brought that child with her that day. This makes the task of finding Ms. Hawkins so much easier, as all we have to do is look for someone near the entrance with a small child in tow.

However, if she was at the TSBD steps, with child, when she saw Officer Baker, this pretty much confirms Baker did not enter the front door of the TSBD as early as he testified to doing, as I have scoured the Darnell film, and have not been able to find a woman with a small child.

Remember, too, that Ms. Hawkins laid low behind the retaining wall until she felt there would be no more shots, while Baker booked it for the TSBD as soon as he heard the shots. Who do you think got there first?

I wonder how that hole or nick or whatever we would like to call it got into the tie. Looks a bit ragged for a scalpel cut, wouldn't you say?

P.S.

Hate to keep pointing things out to you Ashton but, if you can see daylight through something, as is possible with the tie, that pretty much qualifies it as a hole.

No, it was not a hunch, Greg, and you can take that to the bank. I did a great amount of very careful research on this matter, and there were a great number of other factors that pointed toward Baker not immediately entering the TSBD.

Wasn't Bart Kamp a great defender of Baker immediately entering the TSBD? Or was he always defending Lovelady and Shelley being seen in the Couch/Darnell film, walking down the Elm St. extension as Baker ran in the opposite direction? I recall he left your forum in a big huff at least once, vowing never to return. And then came back a week later. Isn't that what your buddy MacRae does on a regular basis here?

Whatever the case, I have bumped the thread "Who saw Baker enter the TSBD" just to show it was slightly more than a "hunch" that made me question Baker's movements.

Congratulations on being right about the Baker distraction/pause (whatever you want to call it) Robert.

For the record and FWIW, I still contend that the film (Darnell?) shows Baker changing course about 18 feet before reaching the TSBD steps, obviously distracted by something.

Thanks for that, Sandy. Unfortunately, Peggy Joyce Hawkins' statement (wonder if she is related to Sadie Hawkins) does not go into a lot of detail, other than to say there was a motorcycle cop in front of the TSBD "at that time" and that she "heard some remarks over his radio".

As all of the film footages seem to show only one motorcycle in front of the TSBD, and we assume the motorcycle belongs to Baker, would we also be correct in assuming the motorcycle cop Ms. Hawkins refers to is Baker? And, can we also assume that being in front of the TSBD "at that time" means Baker was standing still on the sidewalk? This hardly seems to be the way one would describe a man running flat out into a building.

However, there is more to her statement. First, she tells us she had her small child with her. Next, she tells us she walked back to the front of the TSBD.

From her FBI statement:

"She stated she stayed behind the retaining wall until she realized there would be no more shots and then walked back to the front of the TSBD building. She said that a motorcycle police officer was in front of the building at this time and that she heard over his radio some remarks about the railroad yards near the building."

As the retaining wall is also in front of the TSBD, I believe we can all agree that Ms. Hawkins meant the front steps of the TSBD when she stated she walked back "to the front of the TSBD building". I think we can also agree that "at this time" refers to the time she arrived at the steps.

Does anyone see a woman with a small child in front of the TSBD steps in any of the film footages?

Johnny We Hardly Knew Ye, the best-seller written by O'Donnell and Powers, painted a very unflattering portrait of LBJ, especially his conduct following the assassination. Both O'Donnell and Powers each worked for LBJ only until 1965, and the book reflects how reluctant they were to do so. As was noted earlier, the rationale seemed to be that some Kennedy loyalists needed to stay on, to ensure his policies were continued.

If O'Donnell was an inside man, who knew JFK was going to be assassinated, it would astound me. As someone mentioned, he blamed himself for the assassination for the rest of his life. He drank heavily and died young. His role in getting the body out of Dallas was troubling, but I think it sprang from the clear anti-Dallas view which is reflected in their book. Their first thought, which is addressed in the book, was to get away from the city.

Maybe it wasn't misguided naivete but genuine culpability on the part of O'Donnell. Like the rest of them, he should have known the law. Again, if they got to O'Donnell, they got to JFK's real inner circle. Among his close aides, only RFK, O'Donnell and Powers were not establishment types that every president is seemingly forced so be surrounded with.

And a very fortunate thing it was for the conspirators that JFK's close circle had anti-Dallas sentiments, or the autopsy might have been performed at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Portion of JFK's tie showing hole through it.

If those slits lie overtop one another when the shirt was buttoned up, the nurse with the scalpel made that gash through three layers of shirt; a single layer on the button side and a double layer on the button hole side.

It is a little frightening to think this might have been done just to remove a tie. As I said earlier, did no one think of loosening the tie a few inches first?

Here is something else to think about. If you were going to cut the tie with a scalpel, wouldn't it make more sense to grasp the knot and pull enough slack through the knot, so that the knot of the tie was a few inches out from the collar, and cut through the neck loop of the tie without poking holes through the shirt, and possibly into JFK's throat?

The whole "cutting-JFK's-clothes-off-with-scalpels" story stinks to High Heaven, if you ask me.

This photo has always bothered me, as what we are looking at does not make a lot of sense.

For starters, I would presume the slits seen under the button and button hole were made to facilitate an easier removal of the shirt at the collar, and yet, neither slit makes it all the way up to the button or button hole. How did these slits help? From what I can see, it would have still been necessary to undo the collar button.

Next, I have been on our ambulance here as a part time paramedic for the best part of ten years, and have delivered many patients to the ER. If it is necessary to remove clothing, I have never, on the ambulance or in the ER, seen a scalpel used to remove clothing. The weapon of choice, at least in this part of Canada, is the blunt nosed scissors; capable of cutting through boot leather, heavy canvas and thin sheet metal.

I would have cut through the neck loop of the tie with one snip, and cut the corner of the collar holding the button with another snip.

I believe the vertical slits in the collar, seen above, were made after the fact to facilitate the SBT, and it is no wonder to me that a spectrographic analysis of the shirt collar did not turn up traces of metal from a bullet.

P.S.

Judging by the size of these slits, if they had been made by nurses removing JFK's clothing with scalpels, they came very close to stabbing JFK in the neck.

Sorry, Greg, but, considering the way my name has been dragged through the dirt at your forum, for absolutely nothing, BTW, I have a little difficulty seeing Mr. Kamp's comment as anything but an insult, and a petty one at that. Considering the source, I am hardly surprised, though.