Robert Prudhomme

LOL Thank you! Hope I get them!

Despite our differences, and that we often get on each other's nerves and tend to fight sometimes, I often think of the members here as family. Actually, these qualities pretty much sum up my family, and a Christmas spent with my family, in-laws (and outlaws) can often turn into a real donnybrook.

I'd like to wish everyone here a Merry Christmas and all the best in the New Year!

In the spirit of keeping an open mind, I've gone back over the first day statement of Bill Shelley, and taken a closer look at the end of the Darnell film.

As I re-read Shelley's statement of 22/11/63, I began to wonder if I had not misinterpreted one important thing Shelley had stated.

"I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Calvery who is an employee of this same building."

I had assumed the "corner of the park" to be synonymous with the "little concrete island" (where the raffic light pole is located) but now I'm beginning to wonder if they are not two separate things that just happen to lie next to each other.

The photo below should help to explain this:

View of Elm St. from the steps of the TSBD

Just a guess but, I'm thinking now that the "concrete island" with the traffic light on it might end where the small crowd is congregated around the sign post, as the sidewalk on Elm St. begins at this point. The "corner of the park" might not begin until the large concrete column seen behind the taxi.

As there is no retaining wall or shrubbery from the concrete column to the end of the concrete island, a person returning from the Elm St. sidewalk to the TSBD steps, such as Gloria Calvery, would naturally leave the sidewalk after passing the concrete column, and head directly to the steps.

If Gloria Calvery was not actually down by the Stemmons sign but was, rather, much closer to the TSBD, how long would it take her to reach the concrete column? Did she leave before the last shot?

In the Darnell film, two men, whom many believe to be Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, can be seen walking past the concrete island on the Elm St. extension, as Baker sprints from the island toward the TSBD. Darnell pans to the right to follow Baker, and we lose sight of the two men. However, when Darnell pans back to the left, I believe we get a glimpse of these two men again, and it appears to me, at least, one might be slowing down near the "corner of the park".

Could this be Shelley, and could he have spotted Gloria Calvery, stopped at the corner of the park and crying?

This by no means is any confirmation of Shelley and Lovelady walking to the rail yards together, as I am still convinced the two men in Darnell have nothing to do with each other. It also raises some other questions that are just as difficult to answer.

Robert,

That's pretty much what I was suggesting a few weeks ago when I posted the "very short Couch / Darnell GIF" which I claimed showed Shelley crossing over Elm Street Extension towards the island / peninsula, while my putative "Lovelady" continued walking / running towards the railway yards / parking lot.

I'm looking forward to somebody's "stepping up to the plate," and his or her stabilizing (?), blowing up, and / or enhancing the "Possible-Lovelady" talking with "Lady In Black" on the steps in Darnell.

--Tommy, the Droll

I see certain members at ROKC have "stepped up to the plate" for us and deduced that our "Possible-Lovelady" is either a white haired dude or a blonde haired woman with short hair. Of course, this was only after they turned the contrast up so high, PL's entire head was a blob of bright white.

In the spirit of keeping an open mind, I've gone back over the first day statement of Bill Shelley, and taken a closer look at the end of the Darnell film.

As I re-read Shelley's statement of 22/11/63, I began to wonder if I had not misinterpreted one important thing Shelley had stated.

"I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Calvery who is an employee of this same building."

I had assumed the "corner of the park" to be synonymous with the "little concrete island" (where the traffic light pole is located) but now I'm beginning to wonder if they are not two separate things that just happen to lie next to each other.

The photo below should help to explain this:

View of Elm St. from the steps of the TSBD

Just a guess but, I'm thinking now that the "concrete island" with the traffic light on it might end where the small crowd is congregated around the sign post, as the sidewalk on Elm St. begins at this point. The "corner of the park" might not begin until the large concrete column seen behind the taxi.

As there is no retaining wall or shrubbery from the concrete column to the end of the concrete island, a person returning from the Elm St. sidewalk to the TSBD steps, such as Gloria Calvery, would naturally leave the sidewalk after passing the concrete column, and head directly to the steps.

If Gloria Calvery was not actually down by the Stemmons sign but was, rather, much closer to the TSBD, how long would it take her to reach the concrete column? Did she leave before the last shot?

In the Darnell film, two men, whom many believe to be Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, can be seen walking past the concrete island on the Elm St. extension, as Baker sprints from the island toward the TSBD. Darnell pans to the right to follow Baker, and we lose sight of the two men. However, when Darnell pans back to the left, I believe we get a glimpse of these two men again, and it appears to me, at least, one might be slowing down near the "corner of the park".

Could this be Shelley, and could he have spotted Gloria Calvery, stopped at the corner of the park and crying?

This, by no means, is any confirmation of Shelley and Lovelady walking to the rail yards together, as I am still convinced the two men in Darnell have nothing to do with each other. It also raises some other questions that are just as difficult to answer.

Ok, I made this post on my website because Bob Prudhomme pulled up an old post from ROKC by Lee Farley, that I decided to dig into the paperwork a little more yesterday, I want to thank you for that since this will go into V2 of Prayer Man The Movie

I thought the imagery was already plain obvious, but I tossed in 4 statements (2 each) in comparison to their WC testimony as well.

http://www.prayer-man.com/billy-nolan-lovelady-and-bill-shelly-did-leave-the-steps-almost-immediately-after-the-shots-were-fired/

I only have one question, looking at Lovelady's hand written statement, does it not look erratic the way it is penned down? Like there are pauses before he continues? Not that this is some major thing, but the fluency of writing that doc looks kind of odd.

Bart

I see you have doctored the thread on ROKC that you posted the link to. The first post of the thread by Lee Farley, although partially quoted in the next post, has been deleted. A bit ironic, coming from the group that is currently hounding Duncan MacRae about deceptive and misleading practices, wouldn't you say?

Can you believe that almost all of the first generation of critics overlooked just how important this was?

I mean Weisberg actually thought the WC did a nice job on this episode.

It was not until Garrison in 1968 that anyone looked at it suspiciously.

To me today, its central to the plot.

One look at the diagram prepared of the relationship of the Sniper's Nest to the limo at z224, showing the SN to be removed 9° laterally from a centre line running lengthwise through the limo, was enough to tell me the SBT was impossible; unless, of course, the bullet went through JFK's cervical vertebrae.

In order for the bullet to miss the right side of the cervical vertebrae, and still pass through the right side of JFK's trachea, it would have to be travelling a right to left path through JFK's neck of at least 26-28°. Even allowing for JFK's head being turned to the right 5°, this still required a right to left path of 21-23° through his neck.

This right to left path through JFK would have placed the bullet on a trajectory to the left of Connally, and it would have gone nowhere near Connally's right armpit.

P.S.

The trachea, at the level just below the Adam's apple, does not turn when the head turns.

Immaterial or inconvenient?

I believe Mr. McBride has just given you some good advice.

If the "white blob" could be simply explained as matter of being over-exposed - which everyone seems to agree that it is -

You didn't even bother to read the thread!

Everyone does NOT agree that the "white patch" in the x-rays is the result of over-exposure.

Indeed, the only two persons who are currently engaged in this forum debate who are professionally trained to make such judgments, Drs. Mantik and Chesser, actually took measurements on the real autopsy x-rays, and both concluded that the x-rays were NOT over-exposed. So the truth is the opposite of what you just wrote!

Those forum members who claim otherwise can't even get into the archives to conduct tests due to lack of expertise. I wish they could get in so that they could at least attempt to provide us with quantitative data to support their scurrilous speculation. But, until they do provide quantitative data to support their claims, their conclusions are nothing more than an assortment of unsupported assertions that do not derive from the scientific method.

"They will wear you down."

I'm a cherry picker? Says the man who believes only what he wants to believe from the evidence.

P.S.

I was being sarcastic with that post, but I seriously believe no one on the steps really knew what was going on in the first few minutes. I know I would not calmly walk back into a building that had a homicidal maniac running loose with a rifle inside it.

Whether you think this wound is at T-1, as the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel, claimed, or T-3, as Kennedy's doctor George Burkley initially reported,

Job #1 of the JFK murder cover up -- suppression of the physical evidence.

Job #1 of JFK Pet Theorists -- suppression of the physical evidence and the T3 back wound.

You'll never see me disagree with you on this one, Cliff. Entrance wound at T3, straight into the top of the right lung where the bullet disintegrated into powder.

Where's your proof?

And what difference does this make in regards Prayer Man, the fact that they left the steps as said is enough for me. Like I said I don't care if they went to play ping pong.....

If PM is Oswald (which he is) then the whole deck of cards comes down then everything is open to re-investigation, and yes even Gloria and the stroll by those two......

Have you emailed Megan yet Bob?

It's time!!!! Do you want a better copy of the film, or do you wish to fill page after page here?

"edit" had to delete one word for grammar purposes

I hate to break it to you, Bart, and I'm not saying I'm not rooting for you guys at ROKC but, do you really think a handful of us petitioning Megan is going to win the release of a film that has the potential to clearly exonerate Lee Harvey Oswald as the assassin of JFK?

Seriously????

I can just see it now. A package arrives at ROKC, and inside is the original film, with a note that reads, "Here it is boys. You'll find this copy much clearer than anything you've worked with thus far. Please note the name tag over PM's right shirt pocket that says "Lee". Cheerio!"

Call me a pessimist but, these people have worked too hard for too long, and continue to work hard, to give it all up now.

P.S.

And you're right, we do seem to fill page after page here covering the same ground over and over, and ending up going in circles. Sometimes I feel that all I'm doing is keeping a handful of trolls gainfully employed.

Yes, Cowboy Bob,

Please don't stop now. I've almost got enough for a down payment on my next Ferrari.

--Tommy

Wow, Thomas, are you paranoid, or what? You come better than my dog does when I whistle.

No, Bobby, I'm serious. You're the one who called me a paid disinformation agent, after all. Why shouldn't I "dog" you for that?

But a xxxxx! OMG !

Oh, I see, you were talking about Barto, instead.

Wow, I guess I really am paranoid, aren't I?

--Tommy

No, I was addressing Barto when I made the remark, so I obviously was not referring to him.

Bob,

nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Secondly who says that with a handful, a momentum could not be gained.

But what's more interesting is you rather fill page after page here and wherever else discussing the film and so does Tomas Graves (you will not get the magic word from me sunshine) than write one email asking about it.

Your intentions are crystal clear.

Thank you and sleep well.

B

And what, pray tell, are you implying with that remark, Barto?

Let me tell you something, oh arrogant son of ROKC. Are you not smart enough to figure out they would burn that film before they ever gave it up, if it had the potential to exonerate LHO?

For that matter, they likely burnt the damn thing years ago, along with any other evidence that might upset the apple cart.

Do you have any concept at all just who we are dealing with here? Do you not think they are not already twelve steps ahead of your troop of Boy Scouts, and are not the least bit intimidated by anything you do?

Get a grip on reality, man!

Where's your proof?

And what difference does this make in regards Prayer Man, the fact that they left the steps as said is enough for me. Like I said I don't care if they went to play ping pong.....

If PM is Oswald (which he is) then the whole deck of cards comes down then everything is open to re-investigation, and yes even Gloria and the stroll by those two......

Have you emailed Megan yet Bob?

It's time!!!! Do you want a better copy of the film, or do you wish to fill page after page here?

"edit" had to delete one word for grammar purposes

I hate to break it to you, Bart, and I'm not saying I'm not rooting for you guys at ROKC but, do you really think a handful of us petitioning Megan is going to win the release of a film that has the potential to clearly exonerate Lee Harvey Oswald as the assassin of JFK?

Seriously????

I can just see it now. A package arrives at ROKC, and inside is the original film, with a note that reads, "Here it is boys. You'll find this copy much clearer than anything you've worked with thus far. Please note the name tag over PM's right shirt pocket that says "Lee". Cheerio!"

Call me a pessimist but, these people have worked too hard for too long, and continue to work hard, to give it all up now.

P.S.

And you're right, we do seem to fill page after page here covering the same ground over and over, and ending up going in circles. Sometimes I feel that all I'm doing is keeping a handful of trolls gainfully employed.

Yes, Cowboy Bob,

Please don't stop now. I've almost got enough for a down payment on my next Ferrari.

--Tommy

Wow, Thomas, are you paranoid, or what? You come better than my dog does when I whistle.

According to the testimony of Shelley and Lovelady, they (and I assume everyone else on the steps) did not know of the assassination for the first 3-4 minutes, and only found out about it when Gloria Calvery returned to the steps from down by the Stemmons sign.

Where's your proof?

And what difference does this make in regards Prayer Man, the fact that they left the steps as said is enough for me. Like I said I don't care if they went to play ping pong.....

If PM is Oswald (which he is) then the whole deck of cards comes down then everything is open to re-investigation, and yes even Gloria and the stroll by those two......

Have you emailed Megan yet Bob?

It's time!!!! Do you want a better copy of the film, or do you wish to fill page after page here?

"edit" had to delete one word for grammar purposes

I hate to break it to you, Bart, and I'm not saying I'm not rooting for you guys at ROKC but, do you really think a handful of us petitioning Megan is going to win the release of a film that has the potential to clearly exonerate Lee Harvey Oswald as the assassin of JFK?

Seriously????

I can just see it now. A package arrives at ROKC, and inside is the original film, with a note that reads, "Here it is boys. You'll find this copy much clearer than anything you've worked with thus far. Please note the name tag over PM's right shirt pocket that says "Lee". Cheerio!"

Call me a pessimist but, these people have worked too hard for too long, and continue to work hard, to give it all up now.

P.S.

And you're right, we do seem to fill page after page here covering the same ground over and over, and ending up going in circles. Sometimes I feel that all I'm doing is keeping a handful of trolls gainfully employed.

Why did Shelley and Lovelady go back into the building after the last shots? Simple. The same reason you could see everyone else going into the building.

Their lunch break was almost over.

Dear Robert,

As Lovelady wrote in his First Day Affidavits, their lunch period started at 12 noon and lasted until 12:45.

The assassination occurred at 12:31.

Why would those people go back in the building thirteen or fourteen minutes early to get ready to go back to work with all that excitement going on outside?

I think most of those people are going back inside in Couch / Darnell to either 1 ) get to a telephone before one of their colleagues did, or 2 ) to throw up in the bathroom.

--Tommy

Most of them, including Frazier, Truly and Campbell, had not eaten their lunch yet.

Does that crowd slowly climbing the stairs look like they know the President has just been murdered? Do you think they would be re-entering the building, or even hanging around the entrance, if they knew there was a homicidal maniac with a rifle loose in the building?

Anyone ever told you that you are a bit of a horse's ass, Thomas?

My 2 cents on this. Gerda Dunckel's identification of Shelley & Lovelady in the Couch film still stands up. They left the steps long before Baker arrived there. Lovelady, about 5'4", is easily recognized by his checkered shirt and balding head. Shelley looks just like the guy ID'd by Tom Scully as what Shelley really looked like. And we know that they had stood together up on the front landing.

Lovelady's handwritten affidavit initially reads: "...After it was over we went back into the building and went to work." But we know, in retrospect, that nobody went to work- the workers milled around, hung out for a roll call, and were eventually dismissed for the day. Lovelady, when writing this sentence, was referring to a timeframe many minutes after the shots.

He crossed out "went to work" and so amended this sentence to read: "After it was over we went back into the building and I took some police officers up to search the building." He is still referring to a timeframe many minutes after the shots. This portion of his affidavit has nothing to do with his actual behavior after the shots.

Gauging from Gerda's film analysis, Lovelady & Shelley went down the Elm St. Extension just after the shots. In their testimony they clarified something they had first brought up in their FBI blanket-interviews a few weeks earlier. They had remained at the 1st railroad track 1 1/2- 2 minutes, then returned inside via the West Annex ramp.

They omitted not only their return to the front landing, through the warehouse, but also what had transpired on the ramp while they while they were at the 1st railroad track.

This is how important Gerda's discovery was. It's the sword that slashes the Gordian knot, on the mishmash of information wrapping the front landing just after the shots.

Did Shelley and Lovelady get a chance to talk to Gloria Calvery on the concrete island before they took off down the street to the railyards?

Why did Shelley and Lovelady go back into the building after the last shots? Simple. The same reason you could see everyone else going into the building.

Their lunch break was almost over.

Maybe he slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

You can see all of that, but you can't see the entire walking trip to the railyards was a complete fabrication, and Shelley and Lovelady went back in the front entrance shortly after the assassination?

Interesting.

How come I gotta do all the dirty work?

Thanks, Thomas, I'd forgotten about Thierry Speth.

I did try to contact Gloria's brother by phone but I barely got six words out before he hung up on me. I guess he's had his share of annoyance calls over the years.