Robert Prudhomme

The crazy thing about Baker's testimony is he actually states the pigeons were flying up to the roofs, not off the roofs, and he was not even sure which building it was.

Robert Prudhomme, on 13 Dec 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

Robert Prudhomme, on 12 Dec 2015 - 10:12 PM, said:

David Von Pein, on 12 Dec 2015 - 9:41 PM, said:

Robert “Bob” Prudhomme said

Isn't it funny that none of the Parkland doctors saw something so obvious, and right out in the open?

Yes, I agree. It is.

But there's also no doubt whatsoever that a great big hole WAS there in the RIGHT-FRONT-TOP area of JFK's head.

And here's the inescapable proof....

Dave (and Bugsy, wherever you are)

Did anyone ever figure out what that strange bag-like thing is that can be seen hanging on the right side of JFK's head? It's not brain matter, that's for sure. Whatever it was, Jackie must have had a devil of a time getting it all stuffed back inside JFK's skull, and getting all the bone pieces and scalp sections matched up, so the Parkland doctors would never be able to see this wound. Clint Hill was right there. Funny that he never described her doing re-constructive skull surgery, isn't it.

Hey, if this wound was closed up, and the Parkland doctors could not see a wound in the back of JFK's head, how did they know there was a large head wound?

And another question.

If Jackie glued everything on the right front of JFK's head back together, to the point the Parkland doctors could not even see this wound, why wasn't it still glued back together when JFK got to Bethesda? From what I recall, the coffin had a pretty smooth trip across country, and I don't remember any reports of them dropping the coffin.

Why do the autopsy photos show the right front of the head as a large gaping wound, if it left Parkland as an undetectable wound?

Bumped again for David (and Bugsy, wherever you are)

It's not like the group on the steps of the TSBD were not a friendly, affable bunch that didn't speak to each other. According to Buell Wesley Frazier's WC testimony, they were all chatting quite amiably before the arrival of JFK.

"Mr. BALL - Did you go out there with somebody?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL - Who did you go out there with?
Mr. FRAZIER - I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this boy Billy Lovelady and just standing there, people talking and just talking about how pretty a day it turned out to be, because I told you earlier it was an old cloudy and misty day and then it didn't look like it was going to be a pretty day at all.
Mr. BALL - And it turned out to be a good day?
Mr. FRAZIER - Pretty sunshiny day.
Mr. BALL - Warm?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was pretty warm.
Mr. BALL - Then let's see, there was Billy Lovelady and you were there.
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?
Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name.
Mr. BALL - Were you near the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step down from the top there."

So, this friendly old bunch was just talking and talking about what a pretty day it was, but three shots ring out at the POTUS, a white helmeted cop runs through their midst, and everyone on the steps doesn't know about the cop within a minute???

Here is something to think about. How many times in a 50 year period does the following happen in the space of a minute?

1. The POTUS goes by the TSBD in a limo.

2. Three rifle shots are heard in Dealey Plaza.

3. A uniformed, white helmeted motorcycle cop roars up to the curb, hops off his motorcycle and goes tearing up the steps of the TSBD.

Kind of a semi-memorable moment in time, no?

Let's assume Pauline Sanders actually did see Baker go up the steps, as the FBI stated she did in their report of 24/11/63. As she seems to be the only witness on the steps who saw Baker, do you think she just calmly said to herself "Oh my, well, you certainly don't see that every day" and quietly went back to her desk? I hardly think so. If she was anything like the women I know, she would have shared this strange sighting with her neighbours on the steps (which included Molina and Frazier) and everyone on the steps would have been talking about the cop running into the building within 30 seconds; where he was going, why he ran into the building, was it connected to the shots they heard, etc.

When Joe Molina and Buell Wesley Frazier were asked, at their appearance before the WC, if they had seen Baker enter the TSBD, don't you think it likely they might have at least offered "Well, I never actually saw the cop myself, but Pauline Sanders saw him, and everybody on the steps was talkin' about him within the next minute or so."

Or, continued on in a straight path between the ladies and the stairs. The maddening thing is, anything could have happened after Darnell panned away from the steps.

I just noticed something, Thomas. Where is the tall, suit-wearing guy waving his arms at Baker? I see a guy just about to go up the stairs who has his left hand on the railing, and lets go of the railing to turn to look at Baker, but he is not waving Baker up the stairs by any stretch of the imagination.

Bob,

With all due respect...

That guy's left hand is not on the handrail.

Unless, of course, you think that handrail jutted out about five feet from the building.

Sounds like wishful thinking to me...

--Tommy

So, where is the arm waving you speak of?

He quite obviously either had his left hand on something, or was reaching with his left hand for something, and what we see is him pulling his left hand back to his body. Nothing more.

P.S.

And I still think that looks like Lovelady, just below PM, facing the camera and rising up after exchanging words with the person below him.

Thank you, Tommy, but all I gather is about 1/4 - 1/2 second (if that) at the close of the film clip, of Baker apparently veering for the right-hand mid-section of the entranceway stairs. That he apparently went up the stairs just right of the railing.

I don't see a problem here. Baker, in his re-enactment, went straight up the steps. Why would he do that, if he had not done that in real life on November 22nd?

There's no nefarious conclusion to be drawn from his quick semi-parallel maneuver to go up via the right-hand side of the railing, as the film clip implies. Are researchers hoping there was a "very good lead" that diverted Baker east of the steps, and so consumed Bakertime that ate into his Bakerpath toward the freight elevators & 2nd-floor landing?

Based on this 1/4 - 1/2 second of film? That is what gnaws at me, flimsy reconstructions like this, which is my main motivator in righting this hoax vs. incident ship. We can see how deeply the pernicious hoax-hypothesis has pervaded researchers' minds- and how the grasping at these flimsy reconstructions builds but one more tower for their sand-castle world.

Again. so much emotional energy has been invested over 10+ years, in constructing & advertising this castle, that it will be cataclysmic for the core group of builders to admit their error. Giving an extreme loss of face, & taunting from their associates. I pointed out this latter circumstance in the final paragraph of my previous lunchroom essay:

Unfortunately, the state of affairs in the research community is such that objective truth is based upon tribal allegiances.

Quite the opposite, Richard. Based on this 14-1/2 second film, plus the lack of eyewitnesses, there is no proof at all Baker went up the steps the moment he arrived at them. As for this "veer" you mention, I see it about as well as I see the suit-wearing guy waving Baker up the steps, and I don't see that at all.

I would not be suspicious about the story of Baker being in the building within 22 seconds if it were not that the two prime witnesses supporting this, Shelley and Lovelady, were telling obvious lies in their testimony to the WC. The official story has more holes in it than a block of Swiss cheese.

Tribal allegiances are not the problem with the JFK research community. The real problem is people accepting "known" things without demanding proof. JFK's "shallow" back wound is a perfect example of this.

I just noticed something, Thomas. Where is the tall, suit-wearing guy waving his arms at Baker? I see a guy just about to go up the stairs who has his left hand on the railing, and lets go of the railing to turn to look at Baker, but he is not waving Baker up the stairs by any stretch of the imagination.

Richard

You make some assumptions here about the Darnell film. If you look closely, you'll see Baker was nowhere near the steps as Darnell panned away, and was actually running parallel to the bottom step.

He'll never leave; he's just craving attention. Babies behave much the same way if you ignore them.

Sleeved arm is holding...the other arm. Arms were crossed IMO. Nothing is being 'held' between hands. Based on anatomy alone.

Leaning back, sleeved arm and hand crossed over other arm and hand.

His other hand would be about where his right elbow is if he was "holding" something. The "other hand" is a reflection, or something else besides a hand. Please try standing with arms crossed, and then attempt the pose claimed by those saying he is "holding" or doing something. Post results and orthopedist bills for arm shortening and contortionist consultations below;

Best looks at Prayer Man make me instantly think Oswald.

Oswald got no fair play in Dallas.

Think of a TLR camera held horizontally (panoramic view of the motorcade) with the top "glowing" lens on PM's right.

P.S.

Light emitted from top lens entered viewfinder from street side.

So, are we all agreed, then, that Prayer Man was holding a twin lens reflex camera, and the "glow" seen between his hands was light entering the viewfinder of the TLR, reflecting off the internal mirror and being emitted out the top lens of the TLR camera?

Isn't it funny that none of the Parkland doctors saw something so obvious, and right out in the open?

Yes, I agree. It is.

But there's also no doubt whatsoever that a great big hole WAS there in the RIGHT-FRONT-TOP area of JFK's head.

And here's the inescapable proof....

Dave (and Bugsy, wherever you are)

Did anyone ever figure out what that strange bag-like thing is that can be seen hanging on the right side of JFK's head? It's not brain matter, that's for sure. Whatever it was, Jackie must have had a devil of a time getting it all stuffed back inside JFK's skull, and getting all the bone pieces and scalp sections matched up, so the Parkland doctors would never be able to see this wound. Clint Hill was right there. Funny that he never described her doing re-constructive skull surgery, isn't it.

Hey, if this wound was closed up, and the Parkland doctors could not see a wound in the back of JFK's head, how did they know there was a large head wound?

And another question.

If Jackie glued everything on the right front of JFK's head back together, to the point the Parkland doctors could not even see this wound, why wasn't it still glued back together when JFK got to Bethesda? From what I recall, the coffin had a pretty smooth trip across country, and I don't remember any reports of them dropping the coffin.

Why do the autopsy photos show the right front of the head as a large gaping wound, if it left Parkland as an undetectable wound?

Bumped for David (and Bugsy, wherever you are)

My apologies to Greg Burnham for being part of the sidetracking this thread took. It happened so gradually, I was unaware at first it had occurred. I will make a point of staying on topic in the future, once I get a handle on my ADHD.

In the meantime, bumped for David (and Bugsy, wherever you are)

Come back some time you can't stay so long, eh?

And just who do you think you are, Thomas, demanding that others come up with theories merely because you snap your fingers? This is a technique usually employed by LN's. Your statement, "Robert Prudhomme seems to be intent on not only proving that Oswald was completely innocent, but in simultaneously proving that Baker and Truly and / or Shelley and Lovelady were conspirators." only serves to make the similarity stronger.

Are you implying Oswald was guilty?

Lutz was definitely no expert, as he did not even comprehend how a Mauser action delivers a cartridge from the magazine to the chamber. He mistakenly told the HSCA it was possible to hand feed a cartridge into the chamber and close the Carcano bolt behind it, forgetting the extractor claw (2) protruding out from the face of the bolt that would run up against the base of the cartridge, and prevent the bolt from closing. I am not an expert on Mausers but have owned several rifles with Mauser actions and they all share this feature. IF you push hard enough on the bolt, you might eventually get the extractor claw (2) past the base of the cartridge. You are just as likely to break the extractor claw, though.

Your understanding of the Carcano magazine is a little off, as the clip itself remains stationary as cartridges 1-6 are cycled through the rifle. There is a spring loaded elevator bar that rests against the bottom cartridge in the magazine. As the top cartridge is extracted, the bar pushes the remaining five cartridges up one space in the clip, allowing the next cartridge in line to be extracted. See below:

The elevator bar or "follower" (31) can be seen in the lower right of this diagram. It is narrow enough to allow it to pass between the two sides of the clip. As it is the only thing supporting the clip (via the bottom cartridge), once the last cartridge is chambered, there is nothing supporting the clip and it falls out the bottom of the magazine.

However, the spring attached to the follower is also strong enough to push the entire clip back out the top of the magazine and, to prevent this, a clip latch (25) is mounted on the rear end of the magazine. When the clip is inserted, it snaps into this latch and is held stationary. To remove a full or partially full clip, the clip latch button (forward inside trigger guard) is depressed, and it is possible to remove the clip out the top side of the magazine.

I have always been intrigued that the empty clip did not fall out while the rifle was being handled so much on the 6th floor, as this clip is meant to fall out by gravity after the last cartridge is chambered. It is true that the clip was designed as a one time use/ throwaway item, and the original designers of the clip would likely be surprised to see Carcano owners possessing one clip, and using it over and over. As clips get older, they tend to spread open, and catch on the inside of the magazine instead of falling easily out the bottom. However, tests have shown that often, though not always, by the time clips reach this point, they are incapable of securely holding cartridges, and will not function properly in the Carcano rifle; causing jams instead.

C2766 is a bit of an enigma. We see it being turned every which way in Alyea's film, and still no clip is visible. Fritz carries it in an upright position to the 1st floor and half a block from the TSBD, the clip is seen protruding from the bottom of the magazine. You may be right, someone may have jammed an empty clip up from the bottom of the magazine; thinking that was the correct way to load a Carcano clip. As I do not know the consequences of inserting the clip the wrong way into the clip latch are, I was hoping that you had unearthed some information as to what might happen. It may very well be that the clip could enter at a slight angle, and get jammed into the clip latch.

The question is, was the clip found by the rifle and inserted back into the magazine, or was a clip brought to the scene? If a clip was brought later, there could not have been a cartridge in the chamber, unless someone removed the bolt, inserted a cartridge base first into the extractor claw, and re-inserted the bolt and cartridge into the rifle chamber.

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/parts.html

How many people on the corner actually gave statements?

Tommy,

I would speculate that the Theater was pre-arranged rendevous point, mostly based on accounts of LHO changing seats often once inside.

The pistol was grabbed for self-defense; the danger was very high then that the people who knew too much could be eliminated; Oswald was keenly aware of that.

Cliff,

Absolutely, Tippit & Ruby were strung along and set up like dominoes.

The JFK conspiracy survived numerous 1st-day blunders: 1) J. Carl Day's inserting the ammo clip in the wrong side of the Carcano 2) the power shut-off to the elevators (oops! whose bright idea was this?! The anti-Oswald evidence was easily tidied up by 12:35, it's 12:42 and we got 70,000 cops storming the building, screaming to get upstairs) 3) the Mooneyham sighting ("Now remember, Jack, don't let anyone from anywhere outside see you doing this, not at anytime." "Yes, master FrankenTrulystein" ....... "Hmmm. Did boss say anyone from outside, don't let them see you? I was just up here. I don't see anyone from outside looking in." .... Oh, no. Better not tell Mr. Truly. I better get to the 5th and look at some stock) 4) the mini-conspiracy to bump off Oswald in the Theater 5) the boffo DPD investigator (either Day, Studebaker, Montgomery or Johnson- or hey, maybe they had a group conscience vote) who took the just-constructed gunsack and sample paper from the same wrapping-paper roll.

There's more, of course. A big, big key was information control, so the public could fool themselves. Vince Salandria wasn't fooled, though, as he relates in his False Mystery essay:

"On November 23, 1963, I discussed the assassination with my then brother-in-law, Harold Feldman. I told him that we should keep our eyes focused on what if anything would happen to the suspected assassin that weekend. I said that if the suspect was killed during the weekend, then we would have to consider Oswald's role to be that of a possible intelligence agent and patsy. I told him if such happened, the assassination would have to be considered as the work of the very center of U.S. power."

Hi Richard

In Point # 1, you point out "J. Carl Day's inserting the ammo clip in the wrong side of the Carcano"

Could you elaborate on this a little for us?

Truly was running after Baker, Why would Truly take the opposite side of the steps from Baker? If one was right behind the other, I'm sure Molina would have seen both of them.

Look at the film. Frazier was standing directly in front of the door. Baker would have had to move him out of the way to get in the door, and yet Frazier did not see a white helmeted motorcycle cop?

Pull the other one, it plays Jingle Bells.

Once again, guessing and assumption are a poor substitute for facts.

How did the tall, suit-wearing guy know that Baker was going to run up the steps? At this point in time, no one at the steps, including Baker, even knew that an assassination had taken place.

If you were out jogging, and someone waved you up a flight of steps, would you automatically go up those steps?

Once again, guessing and assuming.

Bumped for Thomas Graves

I asked you first, Bobby.

Let's see....

Do you think Oswald was "Prayer Person"?

Do you think Shelley was on the front steps and then went over, by himself, to the "island" and spoke with Gloria Calvery, and then rejoined Lovelady on the steps where they hung out for three minutes or so, and then Shelley and Lovelady walked down Elm Street Extension to the railway yard / parking lot, and then they reentered the TSBD through a side / back door and encountered Adams and Styles on the first floor?

Etc, etc.

Please fill us in!

And what were Baker and Truly doing this period of time?

And Oswald! Let's not forget Oswald. I'm speaking about Lee Harvey Oswald, of course, You know, the guy Ruby shot on 11/24/63? What was he doing?

Thanks!

--Tommy

Uh, no, I believe my questions preceded yours, Thomas.

Once again, guessing and assumption are a poor substitute for facts.

How did the tall, suit-wearing guy know that Baker was going to run up the steps? At this point in time, no one at the steps, including Baker, even knew that an assassination had taken place.

If you were out jogging, and someone waved you up a flight of steps, would you automatically go up those steps?

Once again, guessing and assuming.

Bumped for Thomas Graves

Once again, guessing and assumption are a poor substitute for facts.

How did the tall, suit-wearing guy know that Baker was going to run up the steps? At this point in time, no one at the steps, including Baker, even knew that an assassination had taken place.

If you were out jogging, and someone waved you up a flight of steps, would you automatically go up those steps?

Once again, guessing and assuming.

Thomas Graves said:

"The tall, suit-wearing guy at the base of the steps obviously though Baker was going to run up the steps. Why did he think that? Answer: Because Baker was running like a madman towards them from across the street, and veered a little only when he was up on the sidewalk, close to them!"

You are hilarious, Thomas. The tall, suit-wearing guy thought Baker was going to run up the steps?

Once again, are you a clairvoyant?

Isn't it funny that none of the Parkland doctors saw something so obvious, and right out in the open?

Yes, I agree. It is.

But there's also no doubt whatsoever that a great big hole WAS there in the RIGHT-FRONT-TOP area of JFK's head.

And here's the inescapable proof....

Dave (and Bugsy, wherever you are)

Did anyone ever figure out what that strange bag-like thing is that can be seen hanging on the right side of JFK's head? It's not brain matter, that's for sure. Whatever it was, Jackie must have had a devil of a time getting it all stuffed back inside JFK's skull, and getting all the bone pieces and scalp sections matched up, so the Parkland doctors would never be able to see this wound. Clint Hill was right there. Funny that he never described her doing re-constructive skull surgery, isn't it.

Hey, if this wound was closed up, and the Parkland doctors could not see a wound in the back of JFK's head, how did they know there was a large head wound?

And another question.

If Jackie glued everything on the right front of JFK's head back together, to the point the Parkland doctors could not even see this wound, why wasn't it still glued back together when JFK got to Bethesda? From what I recall, the coffin had a pretty smooth trip across country, and I don't remember any reports of them dropping the coffin.

Why do the autopsy photos show the right front of the head as a large gaping wound, if it left Parkland as an undetectable wound?

Bumped for David (and Bugsy, wherever you are)

Please show us precisely where Baker "veered" toward the steps. From all indications, in Darnell's film, he was running parallel to the steps and could just as easily have run right past them.