Robert Prudhomme
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Posts posted by Robert Prudhomme
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Civility with trolls is not something I practice or promote.
So you agree that you are not only uncivil, but that you call other members "trolls."
Thank you for confirming that.
--Tommy
PS I have the same problem with "paranoiac zealots," but I manage to restrain myself.
If the shoe fits, wear it.
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Civility with trolls is not something I practice or promote.
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There are two kinds of people in this world.
One type can be told not to pee on an electric fence, and will take the advice in stride and not perform such a foolish act. The other type simply cannot be shown or told and, inevitably, must go out and try it for themselves.
I wonder which category Hank would fall into.
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DVP asks, well how do you know the money order would need a stamp?
Maybe because the guy who owns Klein's said it had to pass through the Federal Reserve system?
Proof that postal money orders were processed by Federal Reserve Banks can be seen right on the Hidell MO itself.
Right below the MO's serial number (2,202,130,462) is the following symbol:
15-119
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000
This is the old-style Federal Reserve Routing Number that was used when manual sorting was still being done. This form of the number is referred to as the "fractional form" for obvious reasons. It has been superseded by a non-fractional form, but the fractional form is still required by law to be printed on all bank checks, including money orders. (Note that the horizontal line may be replaced with a "/" slash, so the number will fit on a single line of text.)
Fractional Form of Federal Reserve Routing Number
XX-YYY
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ZZZ
XX = City Prefix
YYYY = ABA Institution Identifier (a.k.a. ABA Routing Number)
ZZZ = Federal Reserve Routing Symbol
The City Prefix indicates the location of the bank. It is 15 on the Hidell MO, signifying Washington, DC. The ABA Routing Number 119 is used for postal money orders.* The Federal Reserve Routing Symbol 0000 is used for postal money orders and Treasury checks.** (The leftmost 0 is removed for the fractional form.)
The following document
http://tfm.fiscal.treasury.gov/v2/p4/c700.html
outlines the procedure Federal Reserve Banks are to use when processing postal money orders. Quoting from this document:
"There are a number of outstanding 'punch card' postal money orders that were issued prior to the introduction of paper style postal money orders in the spring of 1973, which bear the ABA routing number 0000-01 19. These money orders have a commercial life of 20 years. Processing instructions for the 'punch card' postal money orders are in II TFM 4-7070 of these instructions." [emphasis mine]
We can see that this refers to the form of MO supposedly used by Oswald.The document refers to these MO's as "Old Style Money Order: A card style money order bearing ABA routing number 0000-0119." They are to be processed as follows:
" 'Punch card' money orders that have the ABA routing number 0000-0119 will be handled as mutilated items. They should be identified as old style 'punch card' money orders on the PS Form 1901 for code 004."
"Mutilated items" are those that cannot be processed in the normal fashion.
In conclusion, we see that the Hidell money order was indeed intended to be processed by a Federal Reserve Bank.
*Sources for 119 ABA Routing Number for Postal Money Orders
https://www.frbservices.org/files/servicesetup/check/pdf/check21_special_sort_options_guide.pdf
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2009-title12-vol3/xml/CFR-2009-title12-vol3-part229-appA.xml
**Source for 0000 Federal Reserve Routing Symbol for Postal Money Orders
http://www.eccho.org/uploads/Supplemental-1_2-1_City%20State%20prefixes.pdf
Other Sources:
http://www.eccho.org/uploads/Supplemental-1_2-1_City%20State%20prefixes.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Routing_transit_number#Federal_Reserve
That wasn't my question. I asked for the evidence that a bank stamp is required on the back of the money order. People cashed money orders at post offices and banks all the time. They didn't go to the Federal Reserve to get their money.
The claim is that this particular PO Money Order requires a bank stamp from the Bank of Chicago on it; and absent that stamp, it must not have been cashed.
Where's the evidence that it requires said stamp?
Can you cite it?
In addition, and as a side note, you're citing more current documentation that says what to do with the then 1963 punch card (old style) money orders if they are presented for payment TODAY (treat them as mutilated items). That has nothing to do with how they were processed in 1963 when they weren't the old style, but the state-of-the-art style of money orders.
Hank
He just told you, Jack (as in "you don't know Jack sh.......). Clean the wax out of your ears.
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"The City Prefix indicates the location of the bank. It is 15 on the Hidell MO, signifying Washington, DC. The ABA Routing Number 119 is used for postal money orders.* The Federal Reserve Routing Symbol 0000 is used for postal money orders and Treasury checks.** (The leftmost 0 is removed for the fractional form.)"
What significance can be attached to the location of the bank being in Washington, DC, Sandy?
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God, but I love the sound of trolls getting their butts kicked.
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DVP asks, well how do you know the money order would need a stamp?
Maybe because the guy who owns Klein's said it had to pass through the Federal Reserve system?
Or did you not read the article by David Josephs on this? Maybe Jean Davison did not recommend it to you?
I wonder why?
See, this is research, not the net surfing you and Jean, and McAdams do
I'm not seeing anywhere in that article where it says a bank stamp needs to be applied to the back of the money order.
Where, precisely, do you see that affirmation?
In fact, it says something apparently incorrect, which is: "The Hidell/Klein’s PMO is of the old “Punch card” style (as you can see from the punched holes)and would be processed manually."
The entire point of the IBM punch card system is to read the cards via a card reader, convert the holes into data onto magnetic tape, and add it to a computer's database. No citation is listed for that "processed manually" claim either.
It still appears to be an assumption that checks and money orders were treated precisely the same way by banks, although they are completely different financial instruments.
Hank
Of course you can't see it Hank. What would be your purpose here if you could see it?
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Dr. McClellan said on camera during an interview that Jackie handed him a piece of JFK's brain. That piece obviously was not blasted skyward or forward into the front part of the car.
I wish the microscope here would be turned toward the pre-8:00 p.m. activities at Bethesda, as Ray suggests. I also wish the microscope here would be turned toward J.D. Tippit's corpse. Tippit was buried allegedly on November 23 in a closed casket. The reported coup de grace to Tippit's skull is noteworthy and suspicious. It suggests the killer was trying to inflict a specific skull wound.
I also wish the alleged Knudsen photographs would be discussed in depth here. Along with Dr. Ebersole's W.C. testimony.
All these matters go to the back of the head.
Finally, I wish the experts here would address this question, in depth, without bias: Who had the power and the willingness to cause the fudging of JFK's autopsy? I'm talking principals, not mere agents, when I ask "who".
By all means, Jon, let's discuss all of those things. I'm all ears.
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Wow! This thread sure went quiet kind of all of a sudden.
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Easy there, Dave. No one says you have to make the transformation all at once. You have to ease into these things, or the shock to your system will be too great.
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You've almost given in to the possibility of a conspiracy, Dave, and it is obvious you are now grappling with your inner demons.
Don't fight it. Just close your eyes, and say softly to yourself, "They lied to us, they lied to us, they lied to us............."
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I listened to some more of Lt. Richard Lipsey's HSCA interview. Very interesting interview.
According to Lipsey's observation, there were three bullet entrance wounds, all from bullets originating from high and behind JFK.
One wound was, according to Lipsey, "3 or 4 inches above the neck". Sounds like the cowlick area? Lipsey stated this bullet "blew away part of his face" when it exited the front of his head.
One bullet entered high on the neck, and this is, presumably, the bullet he felt the autopsy doctors believed exited JFK's throat. Later in the interview, Lipsey waffled between high on the back of the neck and low on the back of the head as the precise location of this wound.
The third bullet, according to Lipsey, entered "low on the neck" and is the bullet that did not exit, from what Lipsey surmised from the doctors' comments. Lipsey stated the doctors believed the bullet entered the upper chest cavity, and while they did not find the bullet, they found "traces" , "pieces" and "particles" of this bullet, according to Lipsey. He further stated that finding this bullet is all the doctors spoke of for a great while, and that they spent two hours looking for it.
This is precisely what you would expect to find if a frangible bullet entered his back and, ultimately, his lung.
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Think casket charades, Bob.
6.35 p.m Shipping casket arrives.
Dr Humes "the President's body, as I recall, arrived about 7:30 or 7:35"
Plenty of time for hanky panky.
Yes, it would be, wouldn't it.
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From James Gordon:
"Second:- At this point JFK is not looking forward but 90º to his right. That means the trachea entrance point has also moved to the right and is now no longer visible."
Hi James
I quite agree with you regarding the difficulties of a frontal throat shot exiting out the back wound, mainly because there is no vantage point in front of the limo high enough to account for the steep downward angle of such a wound.
However, regarding the trachea, there is an oddity about it that many people are unaware of. I have had this argument many times with believers of the SBT.
While JFK is turned to his right, as you point out, it is his head that is severely turned, while his body and shoulders remain facing almost forward. Believe it or not, the trachea, at the level of the throat wound, does not turn with the head but, rather, remains in the same position.
This is critical in the case of the SBT but is a rather moot point in this case, as I believe even turning JFK's body 5° to the right would eliminate anything south of the TUP as a source for the bullet.
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You might think it somewhat sadistic of me but, I dearly love watching DVP getting his butt handed to him.
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Sandy, may I be the first to shake your hand, pat you on the back and say "Damn, boy, one helluva job! Glad you're on our side!"
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I have a loosely gathered together and slowly evolving theory regarding the back of JFK's head. It is by no means complete and may sound just a bit crazy but, please bear with me. If you have any ideas, feel free to help me out.
It seems that those autopsy witnesses who did not report a large gaping wound in the right rear of JFK's head and who did report the back of the head to be intact all made a similar observation. While reporting the back of the head to be or at least appearing to be intact, it was reported that the skull bones just under the scalp, at the rear of the head, were quite shattered and broken up. An analogy was made to the skull being similar to the shell covering a hard boiled egg that had been broken up prior to removal.
While I have always resisted joining those who believe in severe alterations to the head wound(s), I am slowly warming up to the possibility this is what may have actually occurred. While many aspects of the coverup were likely still being developed at the time of the autopsy, one thing would have been known for certain by this point, and that was there could only be one shooter, and that shooter simply had to be behind JFK to make the coverup work.
Therefore, with the obvious exit wound in the rear of JFK's head, something had to be done to hide this wound, and that something may have been the replacement of the scalp and bone that had been blown out. Outside of another corpse, where could they find scalp and bone that would fit into this wound? Why not simply utilize the section that came out of that wound?
While it might have been possible to temporarily re-attach scalp and bone to JFK's skull (glue?) and to hide this work with blood and other matter from those observers in the audience just long enough to maintain the charade of a rear entrance wound, the real question that comes to my mind is who had the opportunity to perform this work and where and when would it have been possible to do this work undetected?
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I am seriously asking where the "right rear portion" of JFK's head, seen by SS SA Clint Hill on the back seat of the limo, on the way to Parkland, ended up.
Does it not officially exist? Is their no chain of evidence for it? Hill definitely saw something on the back seat, whether it was the back of JFK's head or not.
Where did it go?
Could this have been the piece that Jackie handed to one of the surgeons?
It had to be.
From all reports, it appears that Jackie actually handed over to a surgeon a fairly large portion of JFK's brain; possibly being what she retrieved from the trunk lid of the limo.
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I was just listening to the recorded interview of the 1978 HSCA interview of Lt. Richard Lipsey, and I believe I have learned the true nature of his role in the autopsy. I believe some of us mistakenly believed he was assisting in the autopsy, and that he was a medical personnel with some experience in autopsy procedures. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, as aide de camp to General Wehle, his duties were in assisting to coordinate movement of JFK's casket to Bethesda. As he admits himself early on in the interview, he merely observed the autopsy, and not all of it, either. At about the 14:00 mark, he actually tells the interviewers that JFK's corpse was the first corpse he had ever seen.
I believe this deals a serious blow to the confirmation of whether or not the metal probe, used by Humes to probe JFK's back wound, was actually stopped from entering the pleural cavity by an intact pleural membrane. Once again, we must consider the very real possibility that the probing was part of a charade and that Lipsey, from his POV as an observer, very likely could not get close enough to JFK to look inside his pleural cavity, and was relying entirely on what was being said by Humes.
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What if it ended up back where it started from, in the back of JFK's head?
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I am seriously asking where the "right rear portion" of JFK's head, seen by SS SA Clint Hill on the back seat of the limo, on the way to Parkland, ended up.
Does it not officially exist? Is their no chain of evidence for it? Hill definitely saw something on the back seat, whether it was the back of JFK's head or not.
Where did it go?
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From the Warren Commission testimony of SA Clinton J. Hill, Secret Service:
"Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the hospital?
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head."
Does anyone know what became of the "right rear portion" of JFK's head, seen lying in the rear seat of the limo by Clint Hill?
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Robert:
One quick question for you; if frangible ammunition, particularly Carcano M37 Magistri was used as you theorize, and this theory is IMO not without merit, from where was this particular and specific ammunition obtained? Also, why not give the member of the IAA Forum credit for his bullet cut-away diagrams that you are using.
Gary
Hi Gary
You realize, of course, it is entirely theoretical on my part that 6.5mm Carcano M37 Magistri frangible range bullets were used in the assassination. That being said, I have been able to verify that standard 6.5mm Carcano ball ammunition was being made by the Italian government, right up until the early 1970's. It seems the Carcano rifles were still being used by the Italian correctional system until that late date. Also, as the M91/41 Carcano long rifle was a very accurate weapon, the Italian rifle team was still shooting it in international competitions right into the late 1960's. While it would make sense they would be manufacturing the frangible range bullet, for indoor target shooting, as well as the standard ball ammunition, I have been unable to make a real verification that any frangible range ammunition was made following WWII. This, of course, presents the very real possibility the cartridges loaded with frangible bullets would be twenty years old and, with the problems experienced with deteriorated Italian ammunition, quite unreliable by 1963. However, this problem could easily be overcome by pulling the frangible bullets from the Italian cartridges, and reloading them into new cartridges, such as the American made Western Cartridge Co. cartridges. At this point, the gunpowder in each cartridge could be precisely measured (more precisely than the factory would have) to guarantee each cartridge had an equal portion of gunpowder, thus guaranteeing greater accuracy. This last is, of course, one of the reasons why hand loaded ammunition will shoot much more accurately than "factory ammo".
P.S.
You're right, I should be giving credit where credit is due. However, I obtained that photo from a Google search, and did not actually visit the IAA Forum to retrieve it. Fascinating ammo though, eh? The cartridge next to the frangible cartridge is a Carcano armour piercing round, and beside that are three "guard" cartridges containing a tube loaded with individual balls, This tube, much like a bullet jacket, was extremely thin and often slotted lengthwise. Upon leaving the muzzle, this tube would tear apart, leaving the balls to fly through the air like buckshot from a shotgun. Great crowd control.
Hi Bob:
Thanks for the response and again I agree with much of what you have indicated herein. I have checked with numerous sources that I have been in contact with over the past eight years regarding the issue of precise manufacturing dates of frangible Carcano ammunition, sources both close to home [i.e. North America] and in particular sources in Italy. They are in agreement that post WW II production of this ammunition appears virtually non-existent and is considered today to be a "collectors" item of interest and scarcity. You are also correct in indicating that if, and it is to this point in time an "if", ammunition of this nature of Italian manufacture was used in the assassination its reliability would be reasonably called into question. I do agree that there would be nothing to stop someone from acquiring from somewhere frangible Carcano ammunition and reloading the bullet component into the 6.5mm cartridge manufactured by the Western Cartridge Company. And again you are absolutely correct to indicate that if this was done whomever did so would have to have a fairly concise knowledge of the powder "loads" needed to make this new hybrid work efficiently in the weapon [Carcano] of their choice and in particular the powder load used by the WCC.
Not to give too much away here, because I will be touching on some of these issues during the upcoming Lancer conference, but what I have discovered over the past eight years of research is that everything, and I do mean everything, about the 6.5mm MC ammunition manufactured by Western was unique, from the plain white folding boxes that held 20 rounds each to the powder loaded into the cartridge by Western. It was a powder unlike any other IMR powder of the times [i.e. the early 1950's] and a powder that as far as I have been able to ascertain was never used by Western again in any other military cartridge they manufactured after the completion in 1954 of the initial contract of the four million rounds. And it would turn out to be a critical issue. One area of my research that I continue to follow is that it appears that pressure test results conducted on the Western 6.5mm MC ammo failed to meet the standards set by the original contractor of this ammunition and for this reason this same contractor eventually rejected delivery of the ammunition. Pieces of information to buttress this contention have only come to me over the past couple of months and so it is a "fresh" lead, so to speak, that awaits more confirmation from currently what are two very different sources, one a relative of an individual involved in the original testing procedures and the other the transfer of thousands of pages of newly released microfiche records to digital medium by the historical branch of the U.S. Army's Joint Military Command.
Gary
Hi Gary
I don't know if this will help you or not but, it has been recommended by several hand loading experts that a very slow burning gunpowder be used when handloading the Norma .268" bullets that were especially designed to be shot from the Carcano rifles. As the Carcano has much deeper rifling grooves than other 6.5mm rifles, the slower burning powder is supposed to give the .268" bullet a chance to get moving through the harder to overcome rifling grooves before dangerously elevated gas pressures are created behind the bullet. It has also been reported that this is one of the reasons the barrels were cut with "progressive twist" rifling grooves, as it was believed that trying to get the bullet spinning quickly right out of the chamber in those deep grooves would lead to excessive barrel wear at the chamber end.
Could this perhaps be why the Western ammunition might have failed the pressure tests?
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From Paul Trejo:
"What's interesting about this testimony is the sighting of a .30.06 Mauser in the TSBD that week. That wasn't the only reported sighting. In a DPD report, on the day of the JFK assassination, the DPD reported it found a .30.06 Mauser on the 6th floor of the TSBD building.
Later, as we know, that entry was scratched out and changed to 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano. (According to A.J. Weberman, the 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcanorifle was supplied to the DPD by an underground friend of Gerry Patrick Hemming.)"
The rifle purportedly found by the DPD on the 6th floor was not a 30-06 Mauser. It was reported as a 7.65mm Argentine Mauser.
Rectangular and round punch codes on the Hidell money order explained.
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted · Edited by Robert Prudhomme
I'm not sure I understand this. Does this mean the US Postal Service, headquartered in Washington, DC, was the "bank" that issued money orders for all of the post offices in the USA in 1963?