Robert Prudhomme
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Posts posted by Robert Prudhomme
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Isn't it funny that none of the Parkland doctors saw something so obvious, and right out in the open?
So how about this? There was no such wound to see at Parkland. (Obviously.) The gaping wound in the right side of the head was created by the butchers who conducted a pre-autopsy "autopsy." The Z film was then altered accordingly to show how this wound "occurred" in Dealey Plaza.
And before DVP pipes in with witness Newman's statement, Newman would have seen the back of JFK's head blown out, and must have been mistaken in that traumatic instant that the wound was more forward. What he thinks he saw simply can't reconciled with what the Parkland doctors didn't see at close range and for an extended period.
Hi Ron
Do you think they might have "patched" the big hole in the back of the head back together so that it would fall apart like a broken egg shell, as Humes described it?
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Doesn't it seem odd that these same doctors did NOT report a large gaping wound on any other part of JFK's head, considering the fact that every other part of JFK's head was completely visible to them?
I've often wondered why more of the Parkland witnesses didn't see at least *some* of the large wound in the right-front of JFK's head.
From a July 2011 Internet discussion:
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I have also wondered why very, very few of the Parkland Hospital witnesses said they saw the large exit wound on the right side of JFK's head (which is an exit wound that we positively KNOW was there when JFK was in the emergency room at Parkland)?
Even if Jackie Kennedy closed up the flap of scalp on the right side of the President's head (which I think is quite possible), I would still think that a lot more people at Parkland would have been able to see the outline or at least SOME portion of the gaping RIGHT-FRONT exit wound, which is the wound that was causing (IMO) the large amount of "pooling" of blood toward the right-rear of JFK's head (which is what I believe to be the best explanation [to date] for how those Parkland witnesses could have all been mistaken about the location of the wound).
But I've never been totally pleased with that "pooling" explanation, mainly because I'm wondering why nobody at Parkland claimed to see TWO wounds on the right side of the President's head:
1.) The place where the blood and brain tissue was "pooling" (the right-rear; which was mistaken for an actual HOLE in the President's head).
and:
2.) The actual exit wound itself, located in the Right/Front/Top area of JFK's head, which is an exit-wound location that is confirmed in several different ways -- e.g., the Zapruder Film, the autopsy photos, the autopsy report, and the autopsy doctors' remarks about the exit wound location in post-1963 interviews, including these firm and unambiguous comments made by Dr. James Humes on CBS-TV in 1967:
"The exit wound was a large, irregular wound to the front and right side of the President's head."
-- Dr. Humes; June 1967
BTW, I was a believer in the "Blood Pooling" theory before I ever read Vincent Bugliosi's 2007 book. So it wasn't Mr. Bugliosi or Dr. Baden who convinced me that this is probably the best explanation for the Parkland witnesses' BOH observations. In fact, before reading Vince's book, I was truly hoping that VB would drop a bombshell on me and come up with something different and, frankly, BETTER, to explain away those BOH witnesses. But, alas, Vince doesn't have any better explanation than the "pooling" theory described by Dr. Baden in the book excerpt shown below:
"Dr. Michael Baden has what I believe to be the answer, one whose logic is solid. [Quoting Baden] "The head exit wound was not in the parietal-occipital area, as the Parkland doctors said. They were wrong," [baden] told me. "Since the thick growth of hair on Kennedy's head hadn't been shaved at Parkland, there's no way for the doctors to have seen the margins of the wound in the skin of the scalp. All they saw was blood and brain tissue adhering to the hair. And that may have been mostly in the occipital area because he was lying on his back and gravity would push his hair, blood, and brain tissue backward, so many of them probably assumed the exit wound was in the back of the head"." -- Pages 407-408 of "Reclaiming History" by Vincent Bugliosi
In 2006, I was theorizing the exact same thing:
"If I were to hazard a guess as to why (and how) so many different observers could all see the same (wrong) thing regarding JFK's head wound, I'd say it's possibly due to the fact that the massive amount of blood coming from the President's large wound on the right side of his head was pooling toward the BACK of his head while he was resting flat on his back on the hospital stretcher, creating the incorrect impression to the observers that the wound was located where the greatest amount of blood was seen." -- DVP; December 10, 2006
Dear David (and Bugsy, wherever you are)
Even IF Jackie had closed up a large gaping wound in the right front of JFK's skull (a miraculous accomplishment if ever I heard of one) there is something very simple that you are forgetting.
Unless Jackie had Krazy Glue and a tube of silicone to close up and seal this wound, something very obvious would have been going on in Trauma Room One that would have given away the "secret" and "hidden" great gaping wound in the right front of JFK's skull. JFK was being given blood transfusions and closed heart massage (we call it CPR and do chest compressions these days) was being performed in order to keep circulation and perfusion of the cells with oxygen ongoing. As there were large arteries severed inside of JFK's cranium, with each chest compression a great spout of transfused blood would take the path of least resistance and shoot out the open ends of this artery. It would not take many chest compressions before fresh blood would make it, in great amounts, past the "seal" that Jackie had supposedly made on the head wound. It would make a great mess of blood, and no amount of hair would be able to hide it.
Isn't it funny that none of the Parkland doctors saw something so obvious, and right out in the open?
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I thought we already discussed the fact that Baker was never seen to approach the stairs in Darnell. And now you know which side of the stairs he went up? Are you clairvoyant?
Joe Molina did not see Baker ascend the front steps, even when Ball specifically asked Molina if he had seen a "white helmeted police officer" enter the TSBD. Molina did, though, see Roy Truly enter the TSBD. According to popular belief, Truly and Baker ascended the front steps together, supposedly on the same side of the centre railing. How did Molina see Truly, but not see Baker?
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Think about this. The LN's have continually denounced the validity of the observations made by Parkland doctors of JFK's large gaping head wound being in the right rear of JFK's head, for the simple reason that JFK was lying on his back in Trauma Room One, and this wound would have been hidden from them.
Using this logic, doesn't it seem odd that these same doctors did NOT report a large gaping wound on any other part of JFK's head, considering the fact that every other part of JFK's head was completely visible to them?
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It's not a matter of whether or not Truly and Baker actually went up the stairs to the 5th floor or not, it's a question of how long after the last shot Truly and Baker went up the stairs. I believe it was at least a couple of minutes later than they claimed. The proof of this is the number of witnesses standing on the steps who, under testimony, stated they never saw a white helmeted motorcycle cop run past them. Chief among these witnesses are Joe Molina and Buell Wesley Frazier, who were standing at the top of the steps AND directly in front of the door.
If that is the tall gangly 19 year old Frazier we can see at the top of the steps in Darnell, don't you thing Baker at least said "Excuse me!" to Frazier as he pushed him out of the way? Don't you find it a bit odd that Frazier did not recall seeing Baker?
Bob,
But were they asked whether or not they saw a white-helmeted motorcycle cop run past them? No, they weren't.
Luckily for us, Pauline Sanders volunteered she'd noticed him.
Just because none of the others volunteered that they had seen Baker doesn't necessarily mean that they hadn't seen him.
Let's face it, there was lot's of other stuff going on down on Elm Street and on the Grassy Knoll for them to focus on at the time.
--Tommy
From the Warren Commission testimony of Joe Molina:
"Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?
Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.
Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in."
From the Warren Commission testimony of Buell Wesley Frazier:
"Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?
Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there?
Mr. BALL - A police officer.
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.
Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it."
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It's not a matter of whether or not Truly and Baker actually went up the stairs to the 5th floor or not, it's a question of how long after the last shot Truly and Baker went up the stairs. I believe it was at least a couple of minutes later than they claimed. The proof of this is the number of witnesses standing on the steps who, under testimony, stated they never saw a white helmeted motorcycle cop run past them. Chief among these witnesses are Joe Molina and Buell Wesley Frazier, who were standing at the top of the steps AND directly in front of the door.
If that is the tall gangly 19 year old Frazier we can see at the top of the steps in Darnell, don't you thing Baker at least said "Excuse me!" to Frazier as he pushed him out of the way? Don't you find it a bit odd that Frazier did not recall seeing Baker?
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Robert,
Tommy aptly sums up my position in that I don't think Truly would volunteer any information about hearing Adams & Styles even if he had, i.e. he's the leader of the TSBD conspirators, wanting to keep the intel to a minimum, so why drag A & S into it? And Baker wouldn't be interrupted from his gun-in-the-belly inquiry of Oswald even if he did happen to hear muffled high heels outside on the landing. It did not apply to his present gestalt.
The vestibule door had recently been installed- its grain pattern is fresh and strong- and I do believe the purpose was to keep the racket from the stairs down to a manageable level. So that office workers could eat their lunches in relative tranquility.
The pneumatic door device closed the door completely in only a few seconds. This was not the plush model of pneumatic closers you occasionally find today- those puppies can take forever and a day.
Truly was at the lunchroom doorframe for about 15-20 seconds, arriving inside the vestibule just after Baker, who estimated he spent 30 seconds inside the vestibule/lunchroom area. You'll find a picture of this standard pneumatic closing device in the old ROKC archives thread "The Lunchroom Incident Revisited". Somewhere in the early pages Colin Crow found it from the Secret Service re-enactment film.
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TRULY: I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunchroom facing Oswald.
Belin never bothered to specifically ask whether, after Truly leaned in, he stepped in and allowed the vestibule door to close. That detail mattered little or nothing to the testimony, which was about Baker confronting Oswald.
If Truly had stayed frozen in time, leaning in and watching the Baker/Oswald interaction, how could he see Oswald's facial expression and the fact that Baker had a gun in Oswald's gut? They weren't in profile to Truly's point-of-view, because if they were, Baker and Oswald would both be 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. This wasn't what Truly described- he described Baker just inside the doorframe, facing Oswald, who was 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. The details Truly was able to garner came from moseying up to them. He crossed about 7-8 feet of vestibule floorspace and the vestibule door closed behind him.
You forget one small detail, Richard.
When Truly realized Baker was not behind him on the stairs leading to the 3rd floor, he returned to the 2nd floor landing to see what became of Baker. He described what happened next to the Warren Commission:
"Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24."
In other words, if the vestibule door was closed, it was definitely NOT a soundproof door, if Truly could hear Baker and Oswald speaking through it.
By his own testimony, Truly only leaned through the vestibule door long enough for Baker to turn back to him and ask "This man work here?" to which Truly replied "Yes". Five little words, all one syllable words, then Truly said they departed for the 3rd floor "immediately". Your estimation of Truly being inside the vestibule for 20-30 seconds is a gross exaggeration, when you consider it only took Baker 20 seconds to race his motorcycle to a point 45 feet from the TSBD steps, park it, dismount and run all the way to the TSBD front entrance, throwing people out of the way, as Baker described it.
No, Truly stated he opened the door back and leaned in. He said nothing about going through the door, and why would he? Baker was only a couple of feet from him in the lunch room doorway. How did Truly know Baker was holding a revolver to Oswald's stomach, without going further than the vestibule doorway? It's all in Truly's testimony, Richard.
"Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes."
Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?
Mr. TRULY. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor.
Mr. BELIN. All right."
Roy Truly can be forgiven for putting the cart before the horse, as this was indeed a tense moment, but his description could have been accurate. When Marrion Baker turned to speak with Truly, he most likely turned his whole upper body and exposed the revolver in his right hand.
Getting back to the lack of soundproofing in the vestibule door, and the short (much shorter than you think) duration of Truly's foray into the vestibule, we again are faced with a problem. If the vestibule door was closed, as you seem to believe despite a complete lack of evidence to support this notion, Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles would still have heard the exchange between Baker and Truly, through the closed door, as they passed through the 2nd floor landing. As you may be aware, sound will travel through a door equally well in both directions.
From the WC testimony of Victoria Adams:
"Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN - So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, approximately.
Mr. BELIN - As I understand your testimony previously, you saw neither Roy Truly nor any motorcycle police officer at any time?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Mr. BELIN - You heard no one else running down the stairs?
Miss ADAMS - Correct"
Dear Robert,
1 ) If you reread Richard's earlier posts, you'll see he never claimed the vestibule door was soundproof.
2 ) How do you know Truly couldn't have seen the gun in Baker's hand, pointing at Oswald's stomach, before Baker turned Truly's way? Truly's testimony actually indicates he could see the gun pointed at Oswald as soon as he reached the vestibule door, and that Baker, realizing that Truly was standing behind him (or at his side) then turned towards Truly to ask him if Oswald worked in that building:
Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes."
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/truly1.htm
3 ) Rather than there being "a complete lack of evidence" to support Richard's contention the vestibule door was closed behind Baker, Truly, and Oswald, the opposite is actually the case. It was a new, self-closing door!
4 ) Adams and Styles were quickly walking a short distance (from one stairwell to the adjoining stairwell) across a wooden floor in noisy 3" heels, and they were probably talking to each other, as well. No wonder they couldn't hear Baker and Truly talking inside the vestibule, especially if the vestibule door was closed behind them.
--Tommy
You and Gilbride are living in a fantasy world. It would take no more than 5 seconds for Truly to stick his head through the vestibule door, exchange five short words with Baker, and have them immediately leave for the 3rd floor. Period.
Adams and Styles did not have enough time to cross the landing without running into Baker and Truly. Not to mention the astronomical odds against them crossing the landing in the precise five second moment Truly stuck his head into the vestibule.
Remember, Victoria Adams testified to seeing no one on her way down the steps.
Only an idiot or a paid disinfo agent would maintain the 2nd floor lunch room encounter actually occurred.
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Robert,
Tommy aptly sums up my position in that I don't think Truly would volunteer any information about hearing Adams & Styles even if he had, i.e. he's the leader of the TSBD conspirators, wanting to keep the intel to a minimum, so why drag A & S into it? And Baker wouldn't be interrupted from his gun-in-the-belly inquiry of Oswald even if he did happen to hear muffled high heels outside on the landing. It did not apply to his present gestalt.
The vestibule door had recently been installed- its grain pattern is fresh and strong- and I do believe the purpose was to keep the racket from the stairs down to a manageable level. So that office workers could eat their lunches in relative tranquility.
The pneumatic door device closed the door completely in only a few seconds. This was not the plush model of pneumatic closers you occasionally find today- those puppies can take forever and a day.
Truly was at the lunchroom doorframe for about 15-20 seconds, arriving inside the vestibule just after Baker, who estimated he spent 30 seconds inside the vestibule/lunchroom area. You'll find a picture of this standard pneumatic closing device in the old ROKC archives thread "The Lunchroom Incident Revisited". Somewhere in the early pages Colin Crow found it from the Secret Service re-enactment film.
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TRULY: I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunchroom facing Oswald.
Belin never bothered to specifically ask whether, after Truly leaned in, he stepped in and allowed the vestibule door to close. That detail mattered little or nothing to the testimony, which was about Baker confronting Oswald.
If Truly had stayed frozen in time, leaning in and watching the Baker/Oswald interaction, how could he see Oswald's facial expression and the fact that Baker had a gun in Oswald's gut? They weren't in profile to Truly's point-of-view, because if they were, Baker and Oswald would both be 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. This wasn't what Truly described- he described Baker just inside the doorframe, facing Oswald, who was 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. The details Truly was able to garner came from moseying up to them. He crossed about 7-8 feet of vestibule floorspace and the vestibule door closed behind him.
You forget one small detail, Richard.
When Truly realized Baker was not behind him on the stairs leading to the 3rd floor, he returned to the 2nd floor landing to see what became of Baker. He described what happened next to the Warren Commission:
"Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24."
In other words, if the vestibule door was closed, it was definitely NOT a soundproof door, if Truly could hear Baker and Oswald speaking through it.
By his own testimony, Truly only leaned through the vestibule door long enough for Baker to turn back to him and ask "This man work here?" to which Truly replied "Yes". Five little words, all one syllable words, then Truly said they departed for the 3rd floor "immediately". Your estimation of Truly being inside the vestibule for 20-30 seconds is a gross exaggeration, when you consider it only took Baker 20 seconds to race his motorcycle to a point 45 feet from the TSBD steps, park it, dismount and run all the way to the TSBD front entrance, throwing people out of the way, as Baker described it.
No, Truly stated he opened the door back and leaned in. He said nothing about going through the door, and why would he? Baker was only a couple of feet from him in the lunch room doorway. How did Truly know Baker was holding a revolver to Oswald's stomach, without going further than the vestibule doorway? It's all in Truly's testimony, Richard.
"Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes."
Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?
Mr. TRULY. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor.
Mr. BELIN. All right."
Roy Truly can be forgiven for putting the cart before the horse, as this was indeed a tense moment, but his description could have been accurate. When Marrion Baker turned to speak with Truly, he most likely turned his whole upper body and exposed the revolver in his right hand.
Getting back to the lack of soundproofing in the vestibule door, and the short (much shorter than you think) duration of Truly's foray into the vestibule, we again are faced with a problem. If the vestibule door was closed, as you seem to believe despite a complete lack of evidence to support this notion, Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles would still have heard the exchange between Baker and Truly, through the closed door, as they passed through the 2nd floor landing. As you may be aware, sound will travel through a door equally well in both directions.
From the WC testimony of Victoria Adams:
"Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN - So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, approximately.
Mr. BELIN - As I understand your testimony previously, you saw neither Roy Truly nor any motorcycle police officer at any time?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Mr. BELIN - You heard no one else running down the stairs?
Miss ADAMS - Correct"
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Dear Robert,
From his testimony, it sounds like Baker stood inside the enclosed "vestibule" which was between the second floor itself, and the lunch room proper. The vestibule's outer door could have closed behind him. Even if it hadn't, it would have been difficult for Adams and Styles to see him and Truly unless they happened to look in that direction as they were scurrying towards the next flight of downward-leading stairs which was very close to where they "landed" on the second floor. So close, in fact, that they were probably on the second floor landing for only two or three seconds. They were concentrating on getting down stairs as quickly as possible (not wanting to turn their ankles while walking quickly in their 3' heels, they were most likely just looking at the floor in front of them), and probably didn't even look towards the vestibule / lunch room. Even if they did hear Baker's or Truly's voice, they may not have thought there was anything unusual going on in there. And as far as Baker was concerned, his attention was totally focused upon Oswald.
Floor plan of the second floor:
http://jfkassassinat...ibits/ce497.jpg
Photo taken from a point about 10' away from the second floor's stairwells showing the lunchroom's "vestibule" door from the outside. "Warren Commission, Volume XVII: CE 498 - Photograph taken near the stairs of the second floor of the TSBD."
:
--Tommy
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Thomas and all other members
Please carefully read the following excerpt from Roy Truly's Warren Commission testimony, and then tell me how you think Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles could have passed through the 2nd floor landing without seeing OR hearing Roy Truly and Marrion Baker, or being seen OR heard by Roy Truly or Marrion Baker:
"Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.
Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?
Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.
Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?
Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.
Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?
Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?
Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he was just inside the lunchroom door."
Does anyone see how this contradicts Mr. Gilbride's theory that Styles and Adams slipped through the 2nd floor landing unnoticed, simply because of his erroneous belief that Truly, Baker and Oswald were in the lunch room, behind a closed vestibule door?
ROY TRULY NEVER WENT THROUGH THE VESTIBULE DOOR AND ALLOWED IT TO CLOSE BEHIND HIM!!
His own words: "I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way." He leaned in, he didn't walk in. Why did he not go trough the 2nd door, and into the lunch room? SIMPLE, Marrion Baker was standing in the lunch room doorway, directly in front of him and holding a gun on Oswald.
Contrary to what WC apologists would have us believe, the alleged 2nd floor lunch room did not occur in the lunch room; it occurred in the vestibule between the lunch room and the 2nd floor landing. Truly would have been standing in the open vestibule doorway (see photo below) and would have been plainly visible to Adams and Styles as they passed through the landing.
At this close distance, and with Truly standing in the open doorway above, Styles and Adams could not have passed through the landing without hearing Truly and Baker, or being heard by Truly and Baker.
Do not be taken in by Thomas' weak arguments. Adams and Styles did not see anything because of the dimly lit landing? How did Baker see Oswald in the first place then, if it was so dimly lit? Baker's attention was totally focused on Oswald? Wrong again. The very second Truly opened the vestibule door and leaned in, Baker turned back to look at Truly to ask him if Oswald worked there, to which Truly answered "Yes". The very next moment, Baker and Truly departed the vestibule and continued upstairs. In other words, Truly could only have been leaning through that doorway for a few seconds. Would Baker have not been on the alert for other noises? The man had his gun drawn, and was looking for a killer. The slightest sound would have alerted him.
It is quite easy to see why the WC worked so hard to discredit the testimony of Victoria Adams, going so far as to alter her statement to the FBI to include a sighting of Shelley and Lovelady on the 1st floor that never occurred. She was the one thing that could show the 2nd floor lunch room encounter for the fabrication it was.
[emphasis added by T. Graves]
Dear Robert,
You sound worried.
--Tommy
PS Why did you send me the harassing Personal Message this morning (at 6:54 AM)? --
"Caught ya"
"You're disinfo and I will expose you."
You sound desperate and unbalanced, Bob.
Were you up all night?
Maybe you should get some sleep.
My response (sent a few minutes ago):
"Sounds like a threat.
Don't get too paranoid now.
This should be fun.
--Tommy
"Yup, truth hurts, don't it.
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One more point I should make for those who think Adams and Styles could have crept through the 2nd floor landing unheard. Once again, from Roy Truly's WC testimony:
"Mr. BELIN. All right. Number 23, the arrow points to the door that has the glass in it.
Now, as you raced around, how far did you start up the stairs towards the third floor there?
Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.
Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom.
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.
Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?
Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.
Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?
Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed."Do you see what Truly is saying? The vestibule door was closed, and yet he was still able to hear the voices of Baker and Oswald through it.
If Truly was holding the vestibule door open by the time Adams and Styles went through the 2nd floor landing, does anyone seriously think they would not have heard the brief conversation between Baker and Truly?
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"SENATOR COOPER - Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?
Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us."
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Dear Robert,
From his testimony, it sounds like Baker stood inside the enclosed "vestibule" which was between the second floor itself, and the lunch room proper. The vestibule's outer door could have closed behind him. Even if it hadn't, it would have been difficult for Adams and Styles to see him and Truly unless they happened to look in that direction as they were scurrying towards the next flight of downward-leading stairs which was very close to where they "landed" on the second floor. So close, in fact, that they were probably on the second floor landing for only two or three seconds. They were concentrating on getting down stairs as quickly as possible (not wanting to turn their ankles while walking quickly in their 3' heels, they were most likely just looking at the floor in front of them), and probably didn't even look towards the vestibule / lunch room. Even if they did hear Baker's or Truly's voice, they may not have thought there was anything unusual going on in there. And as far as Baker was concerned, his attention was totally focused upon Oswald.
Floor plan of the second floor:
http://jfkassassinat...ibits/ce497.jpg
Photo taken from a point about 10' away from the second floor's stairwells showing the lunchroom's "vestibule" door from the outside. "Warren Commission, Volume XVII: CE 498 - Photograph taken near the stairs of the second floor of the TSBD."
:
--Tommy
****************************************************************************************************************
Thomas and all other members
Please carefully read the following excerpt from Roy Truly's Warren Commission testimony, and then tell me how you think Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles could have passed through the 2nd floor landing without seeing OR hearing Roy Truly and Marrion Baker, or being seen OR heard by Roy Truly or Marrion Baker:
"Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.
Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?
Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.
Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?
Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.
Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?
Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?
Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he was just inside the lunchroom door."Does anyone see how this contradicts Mr. Gilbride's theory that Styles and Adams slipped through the 2nd floor landing unnoticed, simply because of his erroneous belief that Truly, Baker and Oswald were in the lunch room, behind a closed vestibule door?
ROY TRULY NEVER WENT THROUGH THE VESTIBULE DOOR AND ALLOWED IT TO CLOSE BEHIND HIM!!
His own words: "I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way." He leaned in, he didn't walk in. Why did he not go trough the 2nd door, and into the lunch room? SIMPLE, Marrion Baker was standing in the lunch room doorway, directly in front of him and holding a gun on Oswald.
Contrary to what WC apologists would have us believe, the alleged 2nd floor lunch room did not occur in the lunch room; it occurred in the vestibule between the lunch room and the 2nd floor landing. Truly would have been standing in the open vestibule doorway (see photo below) and would have been plainly visible to Adams and Styles as they passed through the landing.
At this close distance, and with Truly standing in the open doorway above, Styles and Adams could not have passed through the landing without hearing Truly and Baker, or being heard by Truly and Baker.
Do not be taken in by Thomas' weak arguments. Adams and Styles did not see anything because of the dimly lit landing? How did Baker see Oswald in the first place then, if it was so dimly lit? Baker's attention was totally focused on Oswald? Wrong again. The very second Truly opened the vestibule door and leaned in, Baker turned back to look at Truly to ask him if Oswald worked there, to which Truly answered "Yes". The very next moment, Baker and Truly departed the vestibule and continued upstairs. In other words, Truly could only have been leaning through that doorway for a few seconds. Would Baker have not been on the alert for other noises? The man had his gun drawn, and was looking for a killer. The slightest sound would have alerted him.
It is quite easy to see why the WC worked so hard to discredit the testimony of Victoria Adams, going so far as to alter her statement to the FBI to include a sighting of Shelley and Lovelady on the 1st floor that never occurred. She was the one thing that could show the 2nd floor lunch room encounter for the fabrication it was.
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"SENATOR COOPER - Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?
Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us."
So much for "the-women-were-seen-but-Baker-was-looking-for-a-man" theory.
Non sequitur, Bobby.
Your "logic" amazes me sometimes.
--Tommy
PS I didn't say that Baker saw Adams and Styles on the second floor. I said he may have heard the distinctive sound of their 3" heels coming down the stairs.
Regardless, don't you think most people back in 1963 would have automatically assumed that the sniper was a man? That's why I said Baker was looking for a man. Geez.
Thomas
You are grasping at straws. Now that it is clear Truly did not go through the vestibule door and allow it to close behind him, there is no way Truly, Styles and Adams could not have seen and heard each other. As I said, Truly, by his own testimony, could not have been leaning through that door for more than 5 seconds.
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Tommy Graves: if Baker & Truly were on the 2nd-floor landing while Adams & Styles were somewhere on the 3rd-floor landing, was there enough time for Truly to get inside the lunchroom before he could be seen by Adams & Styles, given that Truly had apparently continued straight ahead and started walking up the stairs to the 3rd floor, and then, realizing that Baker was no longer behind him, gone back down and entered the lunchroom itself?
Truly testified he "was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me." He absolutely had time to get into the vestibule, and then mosey up to the lunchroom doorframe (with the vestibule door automatically closing a few seconds after he proceeded through the vestibule doorframe), before the young ladies arrived on the 2nd-floor landing.
I don't think that it matters much whether Truly ever realized the young ladies were just up ahead of him. I strongly suspect he was laying a trap for Baker- that he knew Oswald was at the vestibule door, and that Baker would most likely find that suspicious, being that deep in the building, far from the parade.
Truly's plan for a quickly-arriving cop was to get him in the lunchroom while the west elevator descended, and it worked to perfection. But Baker was so fast in his response, 15 seconds faster than anticipated, that Truly was forced into hyperdrive. This "perfection" may seem like circular logic, but more closely resembles a well-designed football play. Their mad dash to the freight elevators & 2nd-floor landing was over and done by as little as 50 seconds after the head shots.
I think you are forgetting that many employees related that the wooden stairs in the TSBD were in quite bad repair, to the point the managers had asked the employees to minimize their use of them. As many treads were loose, it was also reported that the stairs were extremely noisy, and that it was possible to hear someone coming toward you on the stairs a long ways off. I find it hard to believe Truly or Baker would not have heard two women in 3" heels coming toward and past them at high speed.
Aside from that, just how long do you think Truly was in the lunch room? Automatic door closers are not that fast, and I think Truly would have ID'ed LHO even before the door had a chance to close, and B & T were gone as soon as Truly okayed LHO.
Dear Robert,
I think the point is that Adams and Styles may not have been able to hear Baker and Truly coming up. The point is not that bad guy Truly was (probably) able to hear Adams and Styles coming down in their 3" heels. The theory is that innocent. naiive Baker was already inside the lunch room confronting Oswald, and that even if he did hear Adams and Styles, didn't concern himself with them because they were obviously women (wearing those noisy 3" heels) and he was looking for a man.
--Tommy
Wrong. Read Baker's testimony. He testified that he did not actually go into the lunch room. Rather, he stood in the doorway of the lunch room, still standing in the vestibule, and called LHO back to him from within the lunch room..
Then read Truly's testimony. According to his testimony, he did NOT go through the vestibule door and allow it to close behind him. Rather, he opened the door and leaned in, and was only in this position long enough to exchange five words with Baker before they returned to the stairs.
Now, isn't it funny that Victoria Adams never mentioned, in her testimony to the WC, that she went through the 2nd floor landing and saw Roy Truly leaning through an open vestibule doorway, and that there was a big old cop holding a gun on Lee Harvey Oswald just on the other side of him?
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Tommy Graves: if Baker & Truly were on the 2nd-floor landing while Adams & Styles were somewhere on the 3rd-floor landing, was there enough time for Truly to get inside the lunchroom before he could be seen by Adams & Styles, given that Truly had apparently continued straight ahead and started walking up the stairs to the 3rd floor, and then, realizing that Baker was no longer behind him, gone back down and entered the lunchroom himself?
Truly testified he "was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me." He absolutely had time to get into the vestibule, and then mosey up to the lunchroom doorframe (with the vestibule door automatically closing a few seconds after he proceeded through the vestibule doorframe), before the young ladies arrived on the 2nd-floor landing.
I don't think that it matters much whether Truly ever realized the young ladies were just up ahead of him. I strongly suspect he was laying a trap for Baker- that he knew Oswald was at the vestibule door, and that Baker would most likely find that suspicious, being that deep in the building, far from the parade.
Truly's plan for a quickly-arriving cop was to get him in the lunchroom while the west elevator descended, and it worked to perfection. But Baker was so fast in his response, 15 seconds faster than anticipated, that Truly was forced into hyperdrive. This "perfection" may seem like circular logic, but more closely resembles a well-designed football play. Their mad dash to the freight elevators & 2nd-floor landing was over and done by as little as 50 seconds after the head shots.
Thanks, Richard.
--Tommy
Wow! And you think my theories are strange....
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"SENATOR COOPER - Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?
Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us."
So much for "the-women-were-seen-but-Baker-was-looking-for-a-man" theory.
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The other two "witnesses" who testified to seeing Baker and Truly run up the steps of the TSBD, 15-22 seconds after the last shot, are Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady. As everyone knows, they were standing on the upper landing of the front steps of the TSBD.
[...]
[emphasis added by T. Graves]
"As everybody knows"?
What a joke.
Ever heard of the Couch / Darnell GIFs?
Who do you think those two guy are, walking down and then across Elm Street Extension?
Abbot and Costello?
--Tommy
At what point do you see them crossing the extension?
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Tommy Graves: if Baker & Truly were on the 2nd-floor landing while Adams & Styles were somewhere on the 3rd-floor landing, was there enough time for Truly to get inside the lunchroom before he could be seen by Adams & Styles, given that Truly had apparently continued straight ahead and started walking up the stairs to the 3rd floor, and then, realizing that Baker was no longer behind him, gone back down and entered the lunchroom itself?
Truly testified he "was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me." He absolutely had time to get into the vestibule, and then mosey up to the lunchroom doorframe (with the vestibule door automatically closing a few seconds after he proceeded through the vestibule doorframe), before the young ladies arrived on the 2nd-floor landing.
I don't think that it matters much whether Truly ever realized the young ladies were just up ahead of him. I strongly suspect he was laying a trap for Baker- that he knew Oswald was at the vestibule door, and that Baker would most likely find that suspicious, being that deep in the building, far from the parade.
Truly's plan for a quickly-arriving cop was to get him in the lunchroom while the west elevator descended, and it worked to perfection. But Baker was so fast in his response, 15 seconds faster than anticipated, that Truly was forced into hyperdrive. This "perfection" may seem like circular logic, but more closely resembles a well-designed football play. Their mad dash to the freight elevators & 2nd-floor landing was over and done by as little as 50 seconds after the head shots.
I think you are forgetting that many employees related that the wooden stairs in the TSBD were in quite bad repair, to the point the managers had asked the employees to minimize their use of them. As many treads were loose, it was also reported that the stairs were extremely noisy, and that it was possible to hear someone coming toward you on the stairs a long ways off. I find it hard to believe Truly or Baker would not have heard two women in 3" heels coming toward and past them at high speed.
Aside from that, just how long do you think Truly was in the lunch room? Automatic door closers are not that fast, and I think Truly would have ID'ed LHO even before the door had a chance to close, and B & T were gone as soon as Truly okayed LHO.
Dear Robert,
I think the point is that Adams and Styles may not have been able to hear Baker and Truly coming up. The point is not that bad guy Truly was (probably) able to hear Adams and Styles coming down in their 3" heels. The theory is that innocent. naiive Baker was already inside the lunch room confronting Oswald, and that even if he did hear Adams and Styles, didn't concern himself with them because they were obviously women (wearing those noisy 3" heels) and he was looking for a man.
--Tommy
Thomas
Carefully read this excerpt from Roy Truly's testimony to the Warren Commission:
"Mr. BELIN. All right. Number 23, the arrow points to the door that has the glass in it.
Now, as you raced around, how far did you start up the stairs towards the third floor there?
Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.
Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom.
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.
Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?
Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.
Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?
Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.
Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?
Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?
Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he was just inside the lunchroom door.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. TRULY. 2 or 3 feet, possibly.
Mr. BELIN. Could you put an "O" where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?
All right.
You have put an "O" on Exhibit 497.
What did you see or hear the officer say or do?
Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes."
Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?
Mr. TRULY. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor.
Mr. BELIN. All right."
Two things are immediately apparent here.
1. Roy Truly did not enter the lunch room. Nor did he let the vestibule door close behind him. According to Truly, "I opened the door back and leaned in." I take from this that he meant he was still out in the landing and he leaned through the doorway. Why did he not go in and allow the door to close behind him? Simple. Baker and Oswald were right in front of him in the lunch room doorway, and he did not have to go in any further. So, if the vestibule door was open, how did Adams and Styles get by him without being noticed?
2. From Truly's description of events, it sounds like Truly barely got the door open and had leaned in when Baker turned and asked him "This man work here?" to which he answered "Yes". Then, according to Truly, "Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor." So, how long do you think Truly had his head stuck through the vestibule door? How long does it take two men to exchange five words? Five seconds? Maybe six? Even if Styles and Adams had sneakers on, instead of 3" heels, could they have crossed the 2nd floor landing in 5 seconds?
I hate to say it but, the "Adams and Styles snuck by Truly and Adams while they were in the lunch room" theory falls apart very quickly when we see that Truly did not go through the vestibule door, and allow it to close behind him.
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Thomas
You just don't "get it," do you, Bob.
Answer: No, I haven't Bob. But based on what I've already tried to explain to you on this thread, I can be reasonably deduced that all of the originals were signed. And that five of them were later initaled, by the persons who gave them, for some minor corrections.
Does the fact that I haven't seen them somehow "prove" that they were not signed?
I give up.
--Tommy
It doesn't MATTER if the originals were signed or not, if no one outside of the FBI has ever seen them. If you get a witness to initial the original copy, and then type up a finished copy that does not get signed, why should the two contain the same material? Do you not recall Carolyn Arnold?
Dear Robert,
We don't know for a fact that "no one outside of the FBI" has ever seen the originals, do we?
Would it really matter if that were the case? I.e., that the originals were signed but nobody outside the FBI had actually seen those signatures ?
Why would the Dallas FBI Special Agent in Charge go to the trouble of telling Hoover in that airtel that those five people (Carolyn Arnold, Mrs. R. E. Reid, Pauline Sanders, etc., had initialed the minor corrections that had been made to their statements?
Just as an elaboration on the grand ruse?
LOL
--Tommy
Why are statements normally signed, Thomas?
Why should all signed statements to the FBI be necessarily made public? Why shouldn't witnessed copies suffice for common slobs like you and I?
Is it the FBI's civic duty to "prove" to Joe Blow that the statements were, in fact, signed? The Warren Commission's duty?
And even if they did, wouldn't some of us (hint hint) then automatically claim that the signatures had been forged?
Why don't you contact Carolyn Arnold, or Mrs. Reid, or Pauline Sanders, or the two other people, and ask them if they signed the originals? (But if you do, I suggest that you not do it while they're entertaining guests during The Holidays. Because if you do, they'll probably just hang up on you.)
--Tommy
Why should the FBI signed statements be available to the public? Thomas, are you unaware of the fact that most of the bogus evidence in this case was delivered by the FBI??? Are you forgetting we have spent the last 50 years attempting to unravel a government coverup of the true nature of JFK's murder?
Sometimes I seriously wonder about you, Thomas.
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I saw the woman, after you pointed her out, but that by no means identifies her as Gloria Calvery.
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Thomas
You just don't "get it," do you, Bob.
Answer: No, I haven't Bob. But based on what I've already tried to explain to you on this thread, I can be reasonably deduced that all of the originals were signed. And that five of them were later initaled, by the persons who gave them, for some minor corrections.
Does the fact that I haven't seen them somehow "prove" that they were not signed?
I give up.
--Tommy
It doesn't MATTER if the originals were signed or not, if no one outside of the FBI has ever seen them. If you get a witness to initial the original copy, and then type up a finished copy that does not get signed, why should the two contain the same material? Do you not recall Carolyn Arnold?
Dear Robert,
We don't know for a fact that "no one outside of the FBI" has ever seen the originals, do we?
Would it really matter if that were the case? I.e., that the originals were signed but nobody outside the FBI had actually seen those signatures ?
Why would the Dallas FBI Special Agent in Charge go to the trouble of telling Hoover in that airtel that those five people (Carolyn Arnold, Mrs. R. E. Reid, Pauline Sanders, etc., had initialed the minor corrections that had been made to their statements?
Just as an elaboration on the grand ruse?
LOL
--Tommy
Why are statements normally signed, Thomas?
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Tommy Graves: if Baker & Truly were on the 2nd-floor landing while Adams & Styles were somewhere on the 3rd-floor landing, was there enough time for Truly to get inside the lunchroom before he could be seen by Adams & Styles, given that Truly had apparently continued straight ahead and started walking up the stairs to the 3rd floor, and then, realizing that Baker was no longer behind him, gone back down and entered the lunchroom itself?
Truly testified he "was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me." He absolutely had time to get into the vestibule, and then mosey up to the lunchroom doorframe (with the vestibule door automatically closing a few seconds after he proceeded through the vestibule doorframe), before the young ladies arrived on the 2nd-floor landing.
I don't think that it matters much whether Truly ever realized the young ladies were just up ahead of him. I strongly suspect he was laying a trap for Baker- that he knew Oswald was at the vestibule door, and that Baker would most likely find that suspicious, being that deep in the building, far from the parade.
Truly's plan for a quickly-arriving cop was to get him in the lunchroom while the west elevator descended, and it worked to perfection. But Baker was so fast in his response, 15 seconds faster than anticipated, that Truly was forced into hyperdrive. This "perfection" may seem like circular logic, but more closely resembles a well-designed football play. Their mad dash to the freight elevators & 2nd-floor landing was over and done by as little as 50 seconds after the head shots.
I think you are forgetting that many employees related that the wooden stairs in the TSBD were in quite bad repair, to the point the managers had asked the employees to minimize their use of them. As many treads were loose, it was also reported that the stairs were extremely noisy, and that it was possible to hear someone coming toward you on the stairs a long ways off. I find it hard to believe Truly or Baker would not have heard two women in 3" heels coming toward and past them at high speed.
Aside from that, just how long do you think Truly was in the lunch room? Automatic door closers are not that fast, and I think Truly would have ID'ed LHO even before the door had a chance to close, and B & T were gone as soon as Truly okayed LHO.
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Thomas
You just don't "get it," do you, Bob.
Answer: No, I haven't Bob. But based on what I've already tried to explain to you on this thread, I can be reasonably deduced that all of the originals were signed. And that five of them were later initaled, by the persons who gave them, for some minor corrections.
Does the fact that I haven't seen them somehow "prove" that they were not signed?
I give up.
--Tommy
It doesn't MATTER if the originals were signed or not, if no one outside of the FBI has ever seen them. If you get a witness to initial the original copy, and then type up a finished copy that does not get signed, why should the two contain the same material? Do you not recall Carolyn Arnold?
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Thomas
I suggest you speak to your local police dept., and ask them if they think this is a good way to take statements, and how long it would take an unsigned statement to get laughed out of court.
JFK Autopsy X-rays Proved Fraudulent
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted · Edited by Robert Prudhomme
Dave (and Bugsy, wherever you are)
Did anyone ever figure out what that strange bag-like thing is that can be seen hanging on the right side of JFK's head? It's not brain matter, that's for sure. Whatever it was, Jackie must have had a devil of a time getting it all stuffed back inside JFK's skull, and getting all the bone pieces and scalp sections matched up, so the Parkland doctors would never be able to see this wound. Clint Hill was right there. Funny that he never described her doing re-constructive skull surgery, isn't it.
Hey, if this wound was closed up, and the Parkland doctors could not see a wound in the back of JFK's head, how did they know there was a large head wound?
And another question.
If Jackie glued everything on the right front of JFK's head back together, to the point the Parkland doctors could not even see this wound, why wasn't it still glued back together when JFK got to Bethesda? From what I recall, the coffin had a pretty smooth trip across country, and I don't remember any reports of them dropping the coffin.
Why do the autopsy photos show the right front of the head as a large gaping wound, if it left Parkland as an undetectable wound?