Robert Prudhomme

Posting vague images that might or might not be Shelley and Lovelady and discrediting inconvenient witness statements is a poor and questionable research method.

Billy Lovelady saw Victoria Adams on the first floor, and she testified to seeing him and Bill Shelley.

If you simply discount S & L's tale of going to the rail yard and circumnavigating the TSBD for the fairy tale it was, it becomes apparent that these two were back inside the TSBD almost immediately after the assassination.

P.S.

Gloria Calvery was standing much closer to the TSBD entrance than her FBI statement tells us; so close, in fact, she was likely closer to the concrete island than Bill Shelley was, and arrived at the concrete island before he had crossed the street.

Ba Ba,

So I guess Lovelady didn't know Adams very well (and / or he had a poor memory) because he said he saw a girl there but couldn't swear that it was Adams...

OK.

--Tommy

Edit: (From a "Barry E." post on the jfkmurdersolved website) --

What if I told you that Vicki Adams said she NEVER told the Commission she saw and spoke with Shelley and Lovelady, and that she actually had spoken to someone else on the first floor?

Or Sandra Styles, who said she remembers that other person being on the first floor too, but DEFINITELY did not see Shelley and Lovelady there, even though she knew both men well?

http://forum.jfkmurdersolved.com/viewtopic.php?p=30987

If that quote from Barry Ernest is genuine, and Victoria Adams' testimony was indeed altered to include a sighting of Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor that never occurred, it would fit quite neatly into a very weak part of my theory; that being I have puzzled greatly on how Shelley could have crossed the Elm St. extension, spoken for a piece of time to Gloria Calvery about the shooting and then returned inside the TSBD, with Billy Lovelady in tow, in time to be spotted by Victoria Adams, just before she exited the rear of the building.

I don't think there is any doubt about it. Once it was decided to go with the 2nd floor lunch room encounter, the only thing standing in their way was Victoria Adams, who stubbornly refused to recall seeing Oswald, Truly or Baker on the stairs, despite the fact the timing of her egress should have coincided with his descent and their ascent. What I don't understand is, why did they even allow her to testify?

Billy Lovelady saw Victoria Adams on the first floor, and she testified to seeing him and Bill Shelley.

If you simply discount S & L's tale of going to the rail yard and circumnavigating the TSBD for the fairy tale it was, it becomes apparent that these two were back inside the TSBD almost immediately after the assassination.

P.S.

Gloria Calvery was standing much closer to the TSBD entrance than her FBI statement tells us; so close, in fact, she was likely closer to the concrete island than Bill Shelley was, and arrived at the concrete island before he had crossed the street.

I don't see how there could be any "confusion" over this matter, Pat. In his interview, Custer clearly states that he recalled seeing an x-ray of JFK's neck showing "many fragments" in the vicinity of cervical vertebrae C3/C4.

How could CT researchers have influenced his thinking on this matter? Either he saw the fragments, or he did not.

You are correct, Robert, in that Custer's recollection of the fragments appears to be his recollection.

The confusion is over Custer's statements regarding the authenticity of the x-rays. Mantik and others continue to claim Custer disavowed the authenticity of the x-rays...when he actually disavowed the altered x-rays, and subsequently acknowledged the originals as the x-rays he created on 11-22-63.

Rather strange behaviour, wouldn't you say? Why mention the x-ray showing the bullet fragments at all, if he was to later say the ones in the Archives were "genuine"?

I don't see how there could be any "confusion" over this matter, Pat. In his interview, Custer clearly states that he recalled seeing an x-ray of JFK's neck showing "many fragments" in the vicinity of cervical vertebrae C3/C4.

How could CT researchers have influenced his thinking on this matter? Either he saw the fragments, or he did not.

From Bill Shelley's statement of 22/11/63:

"I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Calvery who is an employee of this same building."

Do you see the problem here, Thomas?

If Shelley crosses the street to talk to Gloria Calvery at the concrete island, when does this meeting take place? The two men seen in Darnell do not appear to have stopped any time after crossing the street, and the woman some identify as Gloria Calvery is running on the other side of the street, and cannot be the person they had the meeting with.

Remember, too, that Shelley makes no mention of crossing the street with Lovelady, who claimed, in his first day statement, to go back into the TSBD after the shooting. It is only in their WC testimony, months later, that the story grows into the two of them walking down to the rail yard.

Depending on how advanced the osteoporosis was in 1955, there would likely be clear evidence of deterioration seen in an x-ray taken in 1963. If no evidence of osteoporosis can be found in the x-rays you have, this would strongly indicate they were not x-rays of JFK's neck.

Unfortunately, the only "diagnosis" I have seen so far of JFK suffering from osteoporosis of the cervical vertebrae has been from "Dr." Photon at JFKFacts.org. It would be interesting to see if his medical records from the 1950's have anything in them regarding this.

Jerrol Custer, the x-ray tech who took all of the x-rays of JFK at the autopsy, told the HSCA that the x-rays shown to him of JFK's neck were not the ones he recalled taking and developing, and that the x-rays he saw showed many bullet fragments in the vicinity of cervical vertebrae C3/C4.

If you have the x-rays of JFK's neck, you might want to have a qualified physician examine them. Photon also claimed that JFK was suffering severe osteoporosis of the vertebrae of the neck, to the point he claimed that JFK's neck was "immobile" in 1955.

So far, he has not only alluded to being a doctor, he has hinted he is a lawyer as well. I asked him if he was an Indian chief, too, but it didn't get past the mods.

If ever I suspected someone of being a paid disinfo agent, it would be this person.

At JFKFacts.org, a poster by the name of Photon has alluded several times now to JFK's "abnormal neck condition", and how this "condition" would have allowed the SBT to have occurred.

In typical Lone Nut fashion, he refuses to explain the nature of this "condition", or how it would affect the impossible SBT trajectory.

Anyone know anything about JFK's "abnormal neck condition"?

Lipsey's testimony and subsequent statements are discussed in detail in chapter 17 of patspeer.com. Here is section in which I discuss his subsequent statements.

The Return of Richard Lipsey

And, speaking of strange... As the country neared the 50th anniversary of Kennedy's death, Richard Lipsey re-appeared in a series of interviews and articles in which he pushed that Oswald acted alone. (While there are probably more, I have come across a November 2013 article on Lipsey in Country Roads Magazine, an 11-17-13 article on Lipsey in the Baton Rouge Advocate, an 11-20-13 article on Lipsey in The New Orleans Times-Picayune, an 11-22-13 interview of Lipsey on radio station WKRF, and an 11-22-13 interview of Lipsey on C-SPAN2.) Now, it's not so strange that Lipsey would reappear as the country neared the 50th anniversary. He was an important witness, after all. No, what's strange is the content of his interviews. He said he'd been impressed with Gerald Posner's book Case Closed, and that he also supported Vincent Bugliosi's book Reclaiming History, even though he had never actually got around to reading it.

Well, this might lead one to believe Lipsey had changed his mind, and that he no longer stood by what he'd told the HSCA back in 1978. Beyond claiming that "the direction" of the bullets as determined at autopsy supported that the shots came from behind, after all, he avoided detailed discussion of the President's wounds. One might conclude, then, that he no longer stood by his earlier account of the autopsy, an account that was totally at odds with the autopsy as presented by Posner and Bugliosi.

But one would almost certainly be wrong. In one of the interviews, Lipsey let it slip that he'd studied the FBI's report on the autopsy, and that he largely agreed with it. This report claimed that no passage connecting the back wound with the throat wound had been discovered during the autopsy. This was precisely what Lipsey had told the HSCA. Well, if Lipsey had subsequently come to believe there had been such a passage, well, then, why didn't he say so?

When one sifts through another article on Lipsey, this one published in The Advocate back on 9-6-92, for that matter, one finds even more reason to believe Lipsey never backed off from his 1978 recollections. The article claimed: "Lipsey said he also spoke years later with two other men in the room, Lt. Sam Bird, who was in charge of the honor guard that carried the casket from Air Force One to the ambulance and from the ambulance into the hospital, and FBI agent Francis O'Neill. Lipsey said that a few months ago O'Neill let him read the report he submitted after the autopsy. "I agreed with, like, 90 percent of what he said, and I'm sure the 10 percent I didn't agree with wasn't because he was correct or I was correct," Lipsey said. "It was because... after 30 years your memory gets a little foggy. His report that was written one hour after the autopsy really corroborates my way of thinking."

O'Neill's report, of course, claimed the bullet creating the back wound did not enter the body. While it's possible Lipsey thought this an understandable mistake that was cleared up the next day, it's hard to see how he could think such a thing, and 1) claim his disagreements with O'Neill (who never believed the bullet entered the body) were due to the passage of time, and 2) still claim O'Neill's report "corroborates my way of thinking."

And there's yet another reason to suspect Lipsey never wavered from his statements to the HSCA. In none of these post-HSCA interviews did Lipsey bring up his earlier claim a bullet entered low on the back of the head and exited from the throat. But more to the point, in none of these interviews did the interviewer point out that the "official" story pushed by the men to whom Lipsey was now deferring--Posner and Bugliosi--holds that no bullet of any kind entered low on the back of the head, and that, as a consequence, no discussion of a bullet entering low on the back of the head could have been overheard by Lipsey during the autopsy. And that Lipsey's statements to the HSCA were thereby balderdash...

In fact, these interviews failed to mention Lipsey's ever saying anything at odds with the Posner/Bugliosi version of the Oswald-did-it scenario.

But he was not always so careful. A 10-31-09 article on Lipsey found on 225BatonRouge.com, for example, claimed that upon re-reading his statements to the HSCA, Lipsey, "notes that some of his responses were not as clean and concise as they could have been." He didn't admit he was wrong, mind you. The article then discussed the autopsy in some detail, and claimed the "doctors concluded there were three entry wounds: one in the lower neck, one in the upper neck/lower skull region and one at the rear crown of the head." Well, this was just bizarre; one might guess that the writer of this article, LSU Professor, James E Shelledy, was trying to hide that the bullet hole now claimed to be the fatal bullet hole, the one on the crown of the head, was not observed or discussed at the autopsy. To wit, Shelledy then offered "Several years later, second opinions by doctors determined Kennedy was hit by only two bullets." So, yeah, Shelledy made a strange mistake, and this mistake allowed him to conceal that the wound now claimed to be the fatal entrance wound was not observed by any witness to the autopsy, including Lipsey, and that Lipsey also failed to recall any discussion of such a wound.

A look back at Lipsey's words to the HSCA, however, put this strange passage in context, and make it clear Lipsey was responsible for the description of three bullet entrances, and not Shelledy. Lipsey told the HSCA's investigators: "as I remember them there was one bullet that went in the back of the head that exited and blew away part of his face. And that was sort of high up, not high up but like this little crown on the back of your head right there, three or four inches above your neck. And then the other one entered at more of less the top of the neck, the other one entered more or less at the bottom of the neck." And to this, he later added: "I feel that there was really no entrance wound --maybe I said that --in the rear of his head. There was a point where they determined the bullet entered the back of his head but I believe all of that part of his head was blown. I mean I think it just physically blew away that part of his head. You know, just like a strip right across there or may have been just in that area -- just blew it out."

So, there it is. The entrance by the crown, to Lipsey's recollection, was the rear entrance to the large head wound he claimed had been described as a wound of both entrance and exit. It was not the small red spot in the cowlick later "discovered" by the Clark Panel. Well, it follows, then, that Lipsey thought this large wound was later found to be an exit for the bullet entering on the "upper neck/lower skull". Lipsey had, after all, no recollection of an entrance wound in the cowlick.

And this goes to show that Lipsey, as late as 2009, still believed the doctors had on the night of the autopsy concluded the large head wound was a tangential wound of both entrance and exit. And that they only subsequently decided that this wound was connected to the wound at the upper neck/lower skull.

We have good reason to doubt, then, that Lipsey ever changed his mind about what he told the HSCA. He supported O'Neill, who claimed there was no passage from the back wound into the body. And he continued, as late as 2009, to claim the doctors initially concluded the large head wound was a wound of both entrance and exit.

It seems clear from this, moreover, that Lipsey, who left the military in 1964 to embark on a long and prosperous career as an arms dealer and big game hunter, wanted it both ways. Much as Governor Connally, and FBI agent Frank O'Neill, before him, he wanted to go on the record as saying Oswald did it by all himself, even though his personal recollections were in conflict with that conclusion. Strange. And sad.

Interesting, Pat. Thanks for writing and posting it.

If we accept Lipsey's testimony as fact -- something I'm inclined to do -- it means that Humes said during the autopsy that a bullet went in through the cowlick area. But by the following day he rejected that idea and claimed that it was the EOP bullet that caused the head damage.

Years later the HSCA relocated Humes' EOP wound right back to the cowlick area, with Humes protesting all the way. How weird is that?

Lipsey was listening closely to the autopsy doctors and, from what he was able to gather, the EOP wound was not necessarily at the EOP. He believed it might have been lower. He also stated that the doctors believed this wound was caused by a bullet that exited JFK's throat.

The central question for me: What was the cause of death?

According to the Dallas Death Certificate, the proximate cause was cardiac arrest. The cause of cardiac arrest? "Multiple gunshot wounds" of the head and neck. So what caused death, precisely? I can't blame the Dallas docs or coroner for lack of precision.

I can blame Humes, Boswell, and Finck. And with them, the U.S. Government, for whom they worked and from whom they took and followed orders. No dissection of the perceived head, back, and neck wounds says it all.

So here's the deal, plain for all to see. We have no better description of the cause of JFK's death other than he got shot, and his heart stopped. That's all we've got for the President of the United States.

DVP's problem isn't that he's abandoned this thread. It's that he can't tell us precisely how JFK was killed. And he's got the WC and the HSCA (that's a joke) on his side.

As one doctor put it, everyone dies from cardiac arrest, ultimately.

I love you guys. Keep that mouth running long enough, you can convince yourselves of anything.

So?

I didn't mean to scare him.

Why does DVP stay away from this thread?

And after the 90's?

1, 2 & 3. Who says the other rifles used in the assassination were not Carcanos? Perhaps not the same model of short rifle as found on the 6th floor but, there are some VERY accurate models of Carcano long rifles, such as the M91/41.

4. There is a likelihood the throat wound was an exit wound for a bullet that struck the lower rear part of JFK's skull. Whether it deflected off the base of the skull and struck the vertebrae, or entered the base and disintegrated, sending a minute fragment through the rear base of the skull and into the vertebrae is unknown. Lt. Richard Lipsey was interviewed by the HSCA in 1978, and related that, from what he heard the autopsy prosectors discussing, this scenario was believed by them, with a rear cowlick entry into the skull as well. Further evidence of the cervical vertebrae being struck comes from the HSCA interview of Jerrol Custer, who stated he recalled seeing neck x-rays of JFK showing "many fragments" in the vicinity of cervical vertebrae C3/C4.

5. Interesting question, and I'm glad you asked it. I did quite a lot of deer hunting for a period of time using hollow point rifle bullets I handloaded for a .308 deer rifle. As these bullets were only 110 grains in weight, there was not much to them, and they tended to come apart when I used them in head shots. When they did this, not all (or any) of the bullet always exited the skull, even though there were often large blowouts in the skull. Also, it is a myth that the blowout in a skull will always be precisely 180° on the other side of the head from the entrance wound. It was nothing to shoot a deer in the side of the head, on level ground, and see the top of the head come off. Therefore, a shot originating from the Grassy Knoll causing a large blowout in the right rear of JFK's head is completely possible.

6. Perhaps LHO was involved, in a minor role, and was told to sit tight, as the real assassin(s) were to be "revealed" early in the week, and he would be exonerated.

7. I don't believe the last shot was fired until it became apparent JFK might escape with only minor wounds, although I would hardly call being shot in the right lung "minor". I believe all of the preceding shots were from behind JFK. Speaking of multiple shots, there is also a good chance it was supposed to be "discovered" very early on that there were multiple shooters, and a conspiracy to assassinate JFK, that was quickly subdued and morphed into a lone gunman scenario.

8. As I stated earlier, he may have been quietly told to sit tight and say nothing for a couple of days, and in that time, the "real" assassins would be named, and he would be exonerated. For all we know, he may have been told that other patsies were being set up.

*crickets chirping in the ensuing stillness*

Waiting patiently here for Hank to come pee on the electric fence again.

So, now we know that Lt. Richard Lipsey was not participating in the autopsy but, rather, was a non-medical officer in the audience, is it safe to assume Humes lied about there being no hole in the pleura, and that the back wound bullet very likely entered the top of JFK's right lung?

Remember, it was Jenkins (was it not?) who said he saw the probe pushing the pleura. I wish it was Lipsey who said it, because then it would be easier for me to dismiss. Which would simplify things.

You're right, I had forgotten it was Jenkins who claimed to have seen the probe pushing on the pleura.

"But can you give me your opinion as to why the alleged plotters were so incompetent when it came to pretty much everything relating to the alleged "phony" rifle purchase?"

Quite simple, Dave. The plotters of the assassination and the people who took it upon themselves to cover up the truth of the assassination, by blaming the killing on Lee Harvey Oswald, were not the same people. The cover up was thrown together by desperate men with enough vision to see the calamitous and catastrophic results, should the truth ever be revealed about who really killed JFK, or who the plotters wanted the world to believe killed JFK.

As with anything thrown together at the last minute, there are bound to be mistakes made. Also, considering how vastly different things were in 1963, as opposed to today when authority is questioned at every turn, it may have been considered that the likelihood of anyone ever examining any of the evidence, as we regularly are able to do in great detail on the Internet, was remote in the extreme.

If the fate of the world really did hang in the balance, and the only salvation lay in sacrificing poor Lee Harvey Oswald, who knows, perhaps some day, in the distant future, the men behind the cover up may be remembered as heroes.

Here is something from an interview with SA James Sibert of the FBI, who attended JFK's autopsy along with his partner SA Francis O'Neill:

"Sibert: Well I-that single-bullet theory-when they had me come up to the ARRB deposition there at College Park, I said, “Well before I come up there, I want you to know one thing. I’m not an advocate of the single-bullet theory.” I said, “I don’t believe it because I stood there two foot from where that bullet wound was in the back, the one that they eventually moved up to the base of the neck. I was there when Boswell made his face sheet and located that wound exactly as we described it in the FD 302.” And I said, “Furthermore, when they examined the clothing after it got into the Bureau, those bullet holes in the shirt and the coat were down 5 inches there. So there is no way that bullet could have gone that low then rise up and come out the front of the neck, zigzag and hit Connally and then end up pristine on a stretcher over there in Dallas.”

Law: You don’t believe in the single-bullet theory. Period.

Sibert: There is no way I will swallow that. They can’t put enough sugar on it for me to bite it. That bullet was too low in the back."

Wake up, America, you're dreaming.

So, now we know that Lt. Richard Lipsey was not participating in the autopsy but, rather, was a non-medical officer in the audience, is it safe to assume Humes lied about there being no hole in the pleura, and that the back wound bullet very likely entered the top of JFK's right lung?