Robert Prudhomme

Thomas

In other words, the answer to my question is "no", isn't it.

Are you so naive that you cannot see what a perfect setup this would be to alter the statements of the witnesses interviewed by the FBI?

Bob,

I'm sorry that my "take" doesn't fit in with your grandiose theory.

I guess I'm just not paranoid enough to buy into it.

--Tommy

Hang on a minute here. You're not getting out of this that easily.

Here is what I take away from your story so far. The FBI took 73 statements which were signed by the persons giving the statements, then proceeded to make up finished copies of these statements but were just so gosh darn nice, they didn't make anyone hang around to sign the finished copies. And then, heck, why bother keeping the signed copies around, we'll just chuck them all out!

Are you quite serious?????

deleted

Have you positively identified Gloria Calvery, then?

Thomas

In other words, the answer to my question is "no", isn't it.

Are you so naive that you cannot see what a perfect setup this would be to alter the statements of the witnesses interviewed by the FBI?

Robert Prudhomme,

I've followed with interest your argument that there's nothing to prove Marion Baker entered the TSBD. I think it's an interesting argument given that Baker changed his story over time; Baker and Truly likely knew how to play ball; and although TSBD employees (I think more than one) said they saw a police officer in the TSBD shortly after the last shot was fired, none of these employees identified the police officer as Baker.

As the movie maintains, I don't believe the second-floor lunchroom encounter occurred.

Nonetheless, I'm loath to leap to the conclusion that Baker didn't enter the TSBD. That certainly could be his purpose judging from the Darnell film.

I agree with you completely that FBI reports are not "testimony" in the legal sense. In the law, testimony is given by a duly sworn witness, in court, before a judge, and is subject to cross-examination. FBI reports, as you maintain, fall far short of testimony in the legal sense. Furthermore, as you maintain, there are good reasons to believe at least some of the FBI's JFK reports were misrepresentations by the FBI. Very good reasons.

Hi Jon

I think you misunderstood what I am saying. I'm not saying Baker never entered the TSBD. I'm merely saying he did not enter the TSBD quite as early as we have been led to believe, perhaps by as much as several minutes.

Have you seen the initialled copy that Ms. Sanders initialled, Thomas? I should think it, if it is the original report you think she might have signed, should still be on record somewhere, considering how valuable this signed piece of evidence would be.

The normal procedure would be, assuming signatures were required on FBI reports, to re-write the report, and have Ms. Sanders sign the corrected report. Without seeing the initialled report, we are still left with nothing. If you look at the page previous to the one you linked to on the Mary Ferrell site, you'll see this is precisely what the FBI did with Virginia Barnum's statement.

Just wishing something to be true does not make it so.

Dear Robert,

Of course I haven't seen the (one and only one; signed, corrected and initialed) Dallas FBI original. It's probably "tucked away" somewhere in the National Archives, the Dallas FBI office, the National FBI office, or the Dallas Municipal Archives, etc,

As are Barnum's, Arnold's, Reed's, and Stanbery's corrected and initialed original statements. Not to mention all of the 68 other signed (but uncorrected and therefore not later initialed) original FBI statements taken from TSBD employees in March, 1964.

Maybe they've even been routinely destroyed by now...

--Tommy

Considering how rigid the FBI was about most things, why do you think some corrected "statements" were signed, and some were not?

Robert,

You don't seem to understand.

Evidently all of the 73 originals were signed. In Dallas. During the month of March, 1964, when the TSBD employees made their statements to the Dallas FBI. Evidently only the originals were signed, not the copies. But whoever typed up the copies did put "/s/" next to the person's typed name (and the date, and the location) at the bottom of the statement (all 73 of the statements), indicating that the original (from which the copies were made) had been signed by the person making the statement, and "witnessed" by the two FBI agents whom the person had made the statement to.

I'm guessing that the copies were probably made after the person making the statement had gone home for the day.

Why? Because those copies probably had to be typed up. D'oh.

Only five of those 73 original statements had to be corrected, for relatively minor mistakes. Those (5) corrections were made in Dallas, by the Dallas office of the FBI, and were initialed by the persons who had made those original, signed statements. Only the originals were initialed, not the copies. Once again, the copies were probably made after the person had gone home for the day. Why make them wait around to sign some copies when you already have their signature on the original?

I don't know where those original (signed, corrected, and intialed) statements are now. I'm sorry. My bad.

On the Internet (Mary Ferrell Foundation), all we are able to view are copies of the 73 statements, not the originals. We must assume that they are copies, not originals, because none of them show the initials of Carolyn Arnold, Mrs. R. E. Reid, Pauline Sanders, or the other two TSBD employees whose statements had to be corrected for relatively minor mistakes.

I don't know how to put it more simply, Robert. You either "get it" or you don't. For whatever reason.

--Tommy

Have you or anyone else in the public actually ever seen one or more of the 73 original signed statements, Thomas?

Just my 2 cents on Baker's actions after he had virtually reached the first step as filmed by Couch:

WCH VII reads: On March 20, 1964, counsel from the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy timed a re-enactment of my actions after hearing the shots on November 22, 1963. During this re-enactment, I reached the recessed door of the Texas School Book Depository Building fifteen seconds after the time of the simulated shot. Signed this 11th day of August 1964 at Dallas, Tex.

(s) Marrion L. Baker, MARRION L. BAKER

I can't see any reason why Baker would be diverted from sprinting straight up the seven steps. Especially with a re-enactment that brought him straight to the top of the landing. I don't see a need for having a single witness to confirm that this is what happened.

I'm happy for you, in that you don't need witnesses to corroborate Baker's entry into the TSBD. I'll bet you believe Shelley's and Lovelady's WC testimony, too.

Seriously, though, don't you find it a bit odd that neither Frazier nor Molina saw Baker enter the TSBD? He probably ran right over them on the way in.

P.S.

So, what you're saying is, if someone can re-enact something he claimed to do, and manage to do it in a timespan that coincides with someone's educated guess, that means it is true and had to have happened that way?

As I said, small wonder the American court system is such a mess.

Have you seen the initialled copy that Ms. Sanders initialled, Thomas? I should think it, if it is the original report you think she might have signed, should still be on record somewhere, considering how valuable this signed piece of evidence would be.

The normal procedure would be, assuming signatures were required on FBI reports, to re-write the report, and have Ms. Sanders sign the corrected report. Without seeing the initialled report, we are still left with nothing. If you look at the page previous to the one you linked to on the Mary Ferrell site, you'll see this is precisely what the FBI did with Virginia Barnum's statement.

Just wishing something to be true does not make it so.

Dear Robert,

Of course I haven't seen the (one and only one; signed, corrected and initialed) Dallas FBI original. It's probably "tucked away" somewhere in the National Archives, the Dallas FBI office, the National FBI office, or the Dallas Municipal Archives, etc,

As are Barnum's, Arnold's, Reed's, and Stanbery's corrected and initialed original statements. Not to mention all of the 68 other signed (but uncorrected and therefore not later initialed) original FBI statements taken from TSBD employees in March, 1964.

Maybe they've even been routinely destroyed by now...

--Tommy

Considering how rigid the FBI was about most things, why do you think some corrected "statements" were signed, and some were not?

The other two "witnesses" who testified to seeing Baker and Truly run up the steps of the TSBD, 15-22 seconds after the last shot, are Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady. As everyone knows, they were standing on the upper landing of the front steps of the TSBD.

Despite being on the top steps at the time of the last shot, these two testified to being 25 steps down the Elm St. extension when they looked back to see Truly and Baker ascending the steps. Here is how Bill Shelley described things to the WC:

"Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Going to watch the rest of the parade were you?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes."

Notice that Bill Shelley said he was on the concrete island, directly across from the steps, when he saw Truly and Baker go into the TSBD, and that this occurred BEFORE he and Lovelady began walking to the rail yard. This deals a rather sharp blow to those who believe Lovelady and Shelley can be seen walking down the extension in the Darnell film. However, it echoes precisely what he said in his first day statement, in which he claimed to have gone out to the concrete island, where he ran into Gloria Calvery and received the news of the shooting. The difference was that, in his WC testimony, he was still on the steps when Calvery returned with the news, and crossed over to the island after speaking to her.

Most damning, though, is that Shelley testified to remaining on the steps of the TSBD for 3-4 minutes following the last shot, and did not leave the steps until Calvery returned to the steps with the news. In his first day statement, he claimed to cross the extension and meet Calvery at the concrete island, where she relayed the news.

Either way, there are timing problems when you try to match what Shelley stated and testified to the miraculous 15-22 second run of Baker's. If we try to believe Shelley's WC testimony, Baker could not have entered the TSBD for over 4 minutes, at which time Shelley could have been walking down the extension. If we try to believe Shellwey's first day statement, we have another timing problem. Gloria Calvery had to make her way up Elm St. from her position on the north curb (she claimed in her statement JFK was directly in front of her at the time of the first shot) to the concrete island across from the steps, where she and Shelley stopped to talk briefly. Could she have done all this in 15-22 seconds?

Here is another excerpt from Shelley's testimony:

"Mr. BALL - Did you see the motorcade pass?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - What did you hear?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together.
Mr. BALL - And then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't think anything about it.
Mr. BALL - What did it sound like to you?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn't real loud.
Mr. BALL - What happened; what did you do then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't do anything for a minute.
Mr. BALL - What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound:?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like it came from the west.
Mr. BALL - It sounded like it came from the west?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute."

Note the last line. "...we stopped there for a minute."

Have you seen the initialled copy that Ms. Sanders initialled, Thomas? I should think it, if it is the original report you think she might have signed, should still be on record somewhere, considering how valuable this signed piece of evidence would be.

The normal procedure would be, assuming signatures were required on FBI reports, to re-write the report, and have Ms. Sanders sign the corrected report. Without seeing the initialled report, we are still left with nothing. If you look at the page previous to the one you linked to on the Mary Ferrell site, you'll see this is precisely what the FBI did with Virginia Barnum's statement.

Just wishing something to be true does not make it so.

Thank you James,

Bob,

Pauline's FBI interview is unsigned, as with a trove of others, see CE 3154 and the list of FBI interviews.

Hester, Lawrence, Neuman, etc. doesn't detract from what was placed in that document.

It was not a statement that would be signed, but a report on an interview.

Thanks though.

And you don't find this report somewhat suspect, considering how many other FBI reports contained false information, and the fact she is the only person out of all the people on the steps to see Baker?

P.S.

Please elaborate on your reference to Hester, Lawrence, Neuman, etc.

It is small wonder the American legal system is such a mess, when many of the population cannot distinguish hearsay from testimony.

Don't be ridiculous, Thomas.

I am saying it is very odd that only one "witness", if we dare even call her that, could recall seeing Baker going up the steps immediately after the shots were fired.

Any luck finding Sanders' testimony yet?

Dear Robert,

Why in the world wouldn't you "dare" call Saunders a witness? She has been spotted in photographs standing where she said she was standing during the assassination -- on the front steps. She witnessed the assassination and its aftermath.

As to her "testimony," I think her statement to the FBI qualifies as such. You know, in the broad meaning of the word "testimony" ?

Maybe I should have said "statement to the FBI" instead? Would you have been happy with that?

--Tommy

FBI reports do not qualify as statements or testimony, for the simple fact they are written by an agent in the third person and are not signed. Period.

In the JFK murder case, there are numerous instances where FBI reports containing so called "statements" by assassination witnesses were completely contradicted when those witnesses gave testimony to the Warren Commission.

Pauline Sanders was the only witness on the steps of the TSBD who saw Baker going up the steps, immediately after the shots were fired. Why was she not called to testify to the Warren Commission?

Don't be ridiculous, Thomas.

I am saying it is very odd that only one "witness", if we dare even call her that, could recall seeing Baker going up the steps immediately after the shots were fired.

Any luck finding Sanders' testimony yet?

Now, why don't we make this discussion complete and take a look at the other two witnesses who "saw" Baker (and Truly) ascending the steps of the TSBD?

Hi Ed

I was waiting for someone to bring up Pauline Sanders.

Think hard about this for a moment. Out of the 10-20 people standing on the steps of the TSBD (some directly in front of the entrance door) is it not just a bit odd that only one of these people can recall seeing a white helmeted motorcycle cop running up the steps immediately after the shots were fired? Is it also not just a bit odd that neither Buell Wesley Frazier nor Joe Molina, in their testimony to the WC, could recall seeing this white helmeted cop, despite the fact they were standing in Baker's way at the top of the steps?

Further, let's take a look at her "statement".

FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION

Date 11/24/63

PAULINE E. SANDERS, 4226 Delmar, a Clerk, Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, advised she arrived at work at 8:45 a.m., on November 22, 1963, and immediately reported to the main office where she was employed. She said she was aquainted with LEE HARVEY OSWALD who worked in the warehouse sectio and she has seen him three or four times during lunch breaks in the lunch room but did not talk to him on any occasion. She said he was very quiet and she had never seen him talking to any of the other employees that she could recall. She said she would not be in a position to observe what time he arrived at work or the way he arrived.

She said on the morning of November 22, 1963, she went outside to watch the Presidential parade at about 11:25 a.m. She said she did not see OSWALD during this time and she stood in the last line of spectators nearest the door to the Texas School Book Depository building. She advised she could not recall the exact time but immediately after the presidential parade passed she heard three loud blasts and she immediately realized that the shots or whatever it was came from the building above her. She said within a matter of ten seconds a uniform police officer in a white helmet ran into the building but she did not observe him any further and could not state where he went in the building.

Mrs. SANDERS advised that Mr. Campbell, Office Manager, arrived shortly after the police officer entered the building and she told him she believed the blasts came from the upper part of the building however he insisted the shots came from the embankment. She advised she did not pursue the matter any further and she entered the building within five minutes of the blast. She said she did not observe OSWALD in the lobby but the lobby was crowded with people at this time. She said she did notice a uniform police officer talking to an individual dressed in grey clothing with a silver type construction helmet and he claimed to be an engineer. She said he definitely did not work in the building and she had never seen him before. She said the police officer appeared to be taking his name and address. She said she did not observe whether the elevator was in use or not and she could not recall whether it was on the first floor but she did use the stairwell and walked to the second floor where their offices are maintained. She said she could not recall seeing OSWALD the entire day and at this time the only thing that was on her mind was whether the President had died.

Mrs. SANDERS advised that this morning she called GERALDINE REID, another employee, telephone number FE 1-6617, who told her that the police officer who had first entered the building ran into the lunch room where Mr. TRULY, the warehouse manager, and OSWALD were evidently lunching. The police officer put his gun into OSWALD's stomach but TRULY advised the police officer that OSWALD worked for him. Police officer turned turned away and evidently left the area. She said according to REID, OSWALD then went to the main office and REID, although she had not observed the initial incident with the police officer, told OSWALD that the President had been shot. According to SANDERS, Mrs. REID claimed that OSWALD just mumbled something and left the office. She said Reid did not mention how OSWALD left the office or for that matter if she knew how he might have left the building. SANDERS advised that the stairwell would probably have been the easiest way to leave without being too noticeable since the stairwell is in need of repairs and employees had been instructed not to use the stairwell.

on 11/24/63 at Dallas, Texas File # DL 89-43

By Special Agent ROBERT E. HASAM and ROBERT J. ANDERSON Date Dictated 11/24/63

***********************************************************************************

Pauline Sanders' "statement" is typical of much of the "evidence" provided to the Warren Commission by the FBI. I am not completely familiar with the American court system but, in Canada, such a piece of hearsay evidence would be thrown out by any judge here.

First off, there is no signature on this FBI report. Did Ms. Sanders have the chance to read this report? Did she approve its contents? Did she even know of its existence?

Then we have the "mixed up" lunch room encounter Ms. Sanders received from Geraldine Reid. How cute. The details are off just enough to pass for female gossip but, most importantly, the story establishes that Baker, Truly and Oswald were, at some point, in the 2nd floor lunch room together.

Lastly, look at the date of this report, 24/11/63, right about when the coverup was getting into full swing, and also about the time Baker had changed his story from seeing an employee on the 3rd or 4th floor, walking away from the stairs, to seeing Oswald in the lunch room.

And no, Thomas, I don't believe Pauline Sanders was lying. The FBI took care of that for her. I defy anyone to produce anything by her to corroborate or deny the above report.

“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” ----- Mark Twain

I agree that PM presents the perfect enigma, and that pursuit of solving this enigma might be the most important research into the JFK assassination yet. I judge how close to the truth PM research has gotten by the almost panicked reactions of such LN super freaks as Duncan MacRae. This matter has the Dark Side deeply concerned, make no doubt about it.

However, in the process, let us not be so gullible as to swallow whole other "accepted" pieces of evidence in this investigation. For example, everyone simply "knows" that Baker was entering the front door of the TSBD within 15-22 seconds of the last shot. Excuse me for being a pest but, what proof is there that Baker immediately went up the TSBD steps, after crossing the Elm St. extension?

Ba Ba,

What evidence is there that Baker sprinted down to the corner to talk with one or two policemen, instead?

Did anyone say they saw him do that?

--Tommy

Tommy that amount of evidence would be zero,

What evidence is there Baker ran up the steps?

Pauline Sanders.

"She advised she could not recall the exact time but immediately after the presidential parade passed she heard three loud blasts and she immediately realized that the shots or whatever it was came from the building above her. She said within a matter of ten seconds a uniform police officer in a white helmet ran into the building but she did not observe him any further and could not state where he went in the building."

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/exhibits/ce1434.htm

Ed,

Bingo. I'd forgotten about her. She must have been one of the conspirators, eh? Or maybe her testimony was altered. LOL

--Tommy

Oh really? Pauline Sanders testified? To whom?

Mind providing a link to her "testimony"?

Well, I put you in the same category as the Badge Man group. If you look hard enough, you can probably see Lovelady and Shelley in a dozen different places in Dealey Plaza.

Thomas

We have been over this many times. Here is a question for you. How many witnesses on the corner gave statements?

No, there is no proof Baker loitered at the corner. However, there is damn little proof that he immediately ran up the stairs, either, and what "proof" there is, is highly suspect.

Fact: Two eyewitnesses who were standing directly in front of the TSBD front entrance at the top of the stairs, namely Joe Molina and Buell Wesley Frazier, testified to the WC they did not see a "motorcycle officer sprinting in his uniform, boots and white helmet", despite the fact Baker likely had to shove these two men out of the way to get to the door.

Care to have a go at explaining this?

I agree that PM presents the perfect enigma, and that pursuit of solving this enigma might be the most important research into the JFK assassination yet. I judge how close to the truth PM research has gotten by the almost panicked reactions of such LN super freaks as Duncan MacRae. This matter has the Dark Side deeply concerned, make no doubt about it.

However, in the process, let us not be so gullible as to swallow whole other "accepted" pieces of evidence in this investigation. For example, everyone simply "knows" that Baker was entering the front door of the TSBD within 15-22 seconds of the last shot. Excuse me for being a pest but, what proof is there that Baker immediately went up the TSBD steps, after crossing the Elm St. extension?

Ba Ba,

What evidence is there that Baker sprinted down to the corner to talk with one or two policemen, instead?

Did anyone say they saw him do that?

--Tommy

Basically, Baker became the Invisible Man, once he reached the steps of the TSBD.

Anyways, you and the others are the ones claiming Baker was inside the TSBD in 15-22 seconds. I'd just like to see what proof you have to offer of this occurring.

What is poor and questionable is how some members, when confronted with a difficult situation that doesn't mesh with their pet theory, simply dismiss witnesses as lying, confused, mis-remembering or a combination thereof.

Hi Ray

How are things going? Typical warm and wet UK winter weather? I've always thought you might enjoy our weather here on the northwest coast of Canada. Today is a typical winter day; 9° C. and rain coming down in buckets. You'd feel right at home!

I know what you mean about the separate viewfinder, such as you would see on an SLR camera. However, in this article which, like a fool, I forgot to bookmark, these photographers claimed they were holding an ordinary reflex camera, such as the Imperial Reflex LHO owned, up to the eye to take photos.

This is why I said I found the article interesting, but would not commit to believing it until I had tried it myself. As a child, I recall my mother having a Kodak Brownie Hawkeye camera in the early 60's, that operated the same as the Imperial Reflex, and I do not remember her ever holding it up to her eye to use. I wish she had kept that camera.

BTW, when did David Josephs get banned from this forum?

David Mantik told me a few days ago that at this year's Lancer Conference Buell Wesley Frazier denied that Oswald was anywhere near the front of the TSBD, on the steps, or was Doorman. Frazier is an eyewitness who was there, who knew Oswald, and was in a position to know if LHO was there or not. Frazier was unequivocal about it.

I don't suppose Frazier offered his opinion on who PM might have been, did he? A stranger, perhaps? Another TSBD employee, maybe? It seems a bit ludicrous he could have been standing on the steps in what was an exclusively TSBD group of people, and not recall someone standing right beside him.

Thanks, Vanessa.

The film to which you link is interesting but typical. Typical because the narrator takes ambiguous data and out of the date makes assertions.

Assertions are opinions that masquerade as facts, which masquerade as "evidence".

The film to which you link is interesting but is unconvincing in some respects. For example, Billy Lovelady had an erect posture. The Billy Lovelady character in the 11-22-63 films had an unusual, head-thrusting-forward posture.

Thanks, Vanessa.

The film to which you link is interesting but typical. Typical because the narrator takes ambiguous data and out of the date makes assertions.

Assertions are opinions that masquerade as facts, which masquerade as "evidence".

The film to which you link is interesting but is unconvincing in some respects. For example, Billy Lovelady had an erect posture. The Billy Lovelady character in the 11-22-63 films had an unusual, head-thrusting-forward posture.

Dear Mr Tidd

"Billy Lovelady had an erect posture"?? I'm not sure what to make of that statement. Are you saying Billy Lovelady never stooped or bent over at all?

Billy Lovelady can be clearly seen in Altgens 6 leaning out past the TSBD entrance to look at the presidential motorcade which accounts for his 'head-thrusting-forward posture'.

Lovelady is also visible standing next to Prayer Man in Weigman as Bart points out in his film.

So Lovelady and his posture are not actually that relevant to the PM debate anymore except in so far as we know that Lovelady is not PM.

If that the only point you can criticise in the film?

Vanessa,

It's my personal opinion that Mr. Tidd doesn't like to look at JFK assassination films and photographs very closely because he thinks that they were all altered. I explained to him on another thread that the reason Lovelady's posture and positioning appear so different in the Altgens 6 still photograph and the Wiegman film clip is due to the wildly different angles of the photographers involved, plus the fact that Lovelady (who was by the center hand rail the whole time) leaned forward at a certain point.

But to no avail.

My only problem with Prayer Person's being Oswald is that in the Wiegman clip you can see Prayer Person lower a 35 mm camera (or a pair of binoculars) from his / her face. Was Oswald known to have taken a 35 mm camera or a pair of binoculars to work with him that day, or were either of those things found inside the TSBD after the assassination?

--Tommy

How do you know it was a 35mm camera or a pair of binoculars? Although I did not at first agree with her, Linda made a very good and believable case for the glowing object, seen in PM's hands, to be a reflex camera. Light travels both ways through the viewing lens, reflecting off of a 45° mirror inside of the camera. The glow seen is merely available light above PM's head being reflected off of this mirror and out the front lens of the camera.

Another interesting thing I discovered about reflex cameras is that not all photographers hold them at their waist and take photos by looking down through the viewfinder. According to one article, it is possible to hold the camera up to the eye, and scan the viewfinder. However, I would actually like to try this myself before I commit totally to believing it. Hard to find reflex cameras nowadays, though.