Glenn Nall

David, Jim was taking a personal shot at me with that rhetoric. and i'm not sure what his political lack of success has to do with his book writing. i happen to think that there's some very relevant stuff on his website about this AND other related politics from that era.

and i've read the book all by myself and formed an opinion of it all by myself, without the urging of some professional mainstream media book reviewer.

i happen to have learned some things from it that were not on the cover. that were factual, no less.

it might not occur to some, but some peoples' opinion actually differ from others'. that's why they make wallpaper.

yes, Ron is right. Stone, whom i believe more than Trump, states that he resigned first.

so, i was playing on the irony of Trump's famous "you're fired."

i didn't even know Stone was "advising" the Don (right, Greg, that was funny) until i read he'd quit. Now it appears he's running for Senate and releasing another um... very interesting TO ME... book.

so i was just looking over his website. yes, he's relevant to the JFK assassination. very, in fact.

this is good stuff; i read about some meeting right after the murder between a couple of FBI guys, 2 Dallas "connected" lawyers and Marina where she was "held" for a day or two, after which the ludicrous story about her "holding" LHO in the bathroom...?

so it's seeming to me that Marina's words are not to be trusted, which means her statements about these Walker notebooks and pics are all the more likely bs.

my apologies - i thought it was all over the internet by now. Stone was Trump's campaign advisor until today (last night).

What does tho shave to do with the JFK case, at all?

How is it educational?

um, you know he's a published JFK researcher, right...?

Jim, i said that about YOUR post because it was being politically pointed, and you know it.

i posted this because i KNOW that there are friends of Roger's in here and that Roger Stone is a published and outspoken JFK researcher.

you know that, and you're just being a child when you write that.

now, i said that i had respect for you and your research, but if you can't deal with being asked to curb your political leanings in a basic JFK thread, then perhaps i'm mistaken.

i don't know why, but i expected more than this kind of comment from you. damn.

for what it's worth, i just saw that Roger Stone fired Donald Trump today.

didn't even know he was... anyway...

you asked if you were really that unclear. "Was I really that unclear?"

i explained why you were. if you don't want the answer, maybe you ought not ask the question.

" Besides, this theme is a long way away from the theme of this thread "

that's rich, Paul, considering that this is what i had to prod you with about 8 pages back when you were trying to sell Gen Walker in this thread about the Limo Stopping.

it was unclear by the fact that you argued the puff of smoke for whatever reason, when the context was that the smoke implied a firearm.

...Lee Bowers and the railroad men all agreed they saw "a puff of smoke" between the trees by the picket fence of the Grassy Knoll when JFK was murdered. You have seen the badgeman photo with the smoke from the rifle. right?

I'm interested in the Badgeman, too, Kenneth. Yet it seems to me that the explosion of Badgeman's rifle triggering its bullet was a brief flash of gunpowder, and not actually a puff of smoke.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Paul, are you saying that a 'brief flash of gunpowder' is not as proof of a rifle shot as 'gunsmoke' would be? I'd never thought of that.

he ignored my attempt at the same point, too, Ken. we have a DVP II in the making...

OK...I'm gonna comment ONCE on the TEA Party...and then I'm going to expect the conversation to likely move on.

Originally, the TEA Party WAS a grass-roots organization. Folks who believed they were paying too much of their income in taxes. THEN a large number of OTHER folks, with OTHER agendas and VERY deep pockets, hijacked the original TEA Party name, and used it to espouse other non-tax-related causes.

The TEA Party of today bears little resemblance to the TEA Part of 5-8 years ago.

thanks, Mark. that pretty much explains that.

i was hoping to divert political innuendo, my only point, and i felt that Jim's comment was irrelevant and pointed. i want to respect Jim's research. I want to avoid politics in here, because i would likely get slain and all that. besides, JFK's death is beyond politics. they have no place in this investigation today.

let me rephrase that.

"With allies in the media at Fox. The modern GOP knows how to create astroturf movements, that is fake grass roots" as far as i can see contributes nothing to the particular thread, and therefore had another purpose. if you claim that you meant no partisan 'jab', then i have to take your word for it, though i can see no other reason for the comment other than a political bent. if it pertained to the current context, please tell me how?

I like Glenn Greenwald - he's a definite go-getter, and not a sheep. nevertheless, I'm not sure how he would advise me to act as a Patriot. as human beings, we have the blessed right to behave originally as it pertains to our passions and beliefs. Mine may or may not fall in line with Greenwald's, and i'm sure that neither he nor i sleep less wondering if they do.

I'm going to presume that you're not questioning my Patriotism just because you advised me of a book on the subject when I claimed to be one. My claim was that as a Patriot and an American I have the right to be as angry at JFK's assassination as any Democrat. so i don't know why a Republican should be expected to be less shocked. (if i were painted into a partisan corner, my opinion would be the opposite, in fact, with how I see the left define "patriotism.")

i don't care about the origins of the Tea Party. I am not a member. I never considered being a member, except as how they try hard to keep the Federal government out of our pockets.

OTHER THAN THAT, i don't care about them, or about where they came from. I only commented on your motive to make that particularly irrelevant point at that time.

Greg - great article. very believable. thanks for posting it. i'd sure like to hear that audio taped phone chat where Dr Ebersole shuts up and runs away. wow.

Jon -

"Mantik challenges the allegation. He maintains the allegation that the two x-rays [and everything else that] represent reality is false."

right. this is why there are CTers, because we are willing to challenge the snowjob, to think for ourselves, whereas the LNers are NOT.

"assuming a conspiracy to kill JFK, one must assume the conspirators, either to kill or to cover up, would stop at nothing."

exactly.

GN: I'm trying very hard to respect your contributions to this subject as objective and responsible and effortful. your continuing leftist agenda is making it difficult.

before you rebut: doesn't matter whether what you're saying is accurate or not. the way you're putting it reeks of agenda, which is not necessary and in fact, not constructive in seeking an otherwise common goal.

I cannot think that the Tea Party today can have a remote connection to the assassination of JFK, even IF JBS did it. which they didn't.

i know for a fact that my passionate conservative world-views have NOTHING to do with my desire to find and punish someone who may still be held culpable in this thing. I'd like to think political opinions can be left out of this, just because there's a chance to take a shot at some Republicans.

do not for a second think that there are not plenty more opportunities to take some shots at some Democrats. I just let em go.

if i misunderstood that last comment, then i apologize. but i don't think i misunderstood the spirit with which it was made.

I don' know what this means at all. What on earth could the Tea Party have to do with the JFK case? And BTW I don't think the JBS had anything to do with it either.

All I was doing was comparing the relative power and potency of the two movements, and also their origins.

And I do not consider myself a leftist. I consider myself a Kennedy Democrat-- a species that is just about extinct today.

And BTW, bringing in perceived political biases is always a dangerous thing to do, since it can easily be turned around on you e.g. How could a conservative Republican give anything about JFK?

1 - i never called myself a Republican. I'm sure of it. a Patriot will care about any murder of a great man and a great President. partisanship aside.

2 - "The Tea Party was founded with big money from above. With allies in the media at Fox. The modern GOP knows how to create astroturf movements, that is fake grass roots."

my statement was simply that this statement of yours sounds filled with inuendo. "With allies in the media at Fox. the GOP knows how to create astroturf..."

there's nothing informative or educational in that statement, as you claim. so i think i rightly perceived inuendo. and spoke my mind. that's all.

In further reply to Jim's comment that the JBS was a "small scale grass roots movement" -- I copy below something I wrote several years ago in reply to somebody who made a similar comment:

Here is a VERY brief list of individuals who have been either JBS members or JBS endorsers.

Nelson Bunker Hunt (TX billionaire, who served on JBS National Council)

Charles Koch (KS billionaire -- Koch Oil companies)

Harry Bradley (WI billionaire, Allen Bradley Co.)

Fred Koch (KS billionaire, Koch Oil companies)

Roger Milliken (SC billionaire, textile companies)

Author, Taylor Caldwell

Philip Chandler, Publisher, Los Angeles Times

James C. Quayle, father of former Vice President Dan Quayle

U.S. Congressmen: Cong. Edgar Hiestand (CA) , Cong. Howard Buffett (NE) – Warren Buffet’s father!, Cong. James B. Utt (CA), Cong. James Simpson (IL), Cong. John G. Schmitz (CA), Cong. John Rousselot (CA), Cong. Kit Clardy (MI) , Cong. Lawrence P. McDonald (GA), Cong. Ron Paul (TX), Cong. Thomas H. Werdel (CA), Cong. Wint Smith (KS)

U.S Governors: J. Bracken Lee (UT), Meldrim Thompson (NH), Lester Maddox (GA), Even Mecham (AZ), Gov. Charles Edison (NJ),

Senior retired military officers (Generals and Admirals) from US Army, US Navy, US Air Force such as: Brig. Gen. Bonner Fellers, Brig. Gen. Richard B. Moran; Lt. Gen. Edward M. Almond, Brig. Gen. William L. Lee, Lt. Gen. George E. Stratemeyer, Maj. Gen. Robert Blake, Lt. Gen. Sumter L. Lowry, Maj. Gen. Charles A. Willoughby, and Lt. Gen. Charles B. Stone; Col Laurence E. Bunker; Vice Admiral C.S. Freeman, Rear Admiral Paulus P. Powell, and Vice Admiral T.G.W. Settle.

Phyllis Schlafly and her husband Fred

Ezra Taft Benson (former US Secretary of Agriculture, and later head of the Mormon Church)

Actors: Walter Brennan, Zasu Pitts; Adolphe Menjou, Ward Bond; Hollywood gossip columnist, Hedda Hopper

Multi-millionaire businessmen who have run their own companies (such as A.G. Heinsohn Jr., John T. Beatty, William Grede, Floyd Paxton, Robert Stoddard, S.J. Conner, Ralph E. Davis)

Miscellaneous personalities:

T. Coleman Andrews Former IRS Commissioner and 1956 Presidential candidate, States Rights Party

Former Chief Justice, Arizona Supreme Court, M.T. Phelps

Former Dean, Notre Dame Law School, Clarence Manion

Farm and Ranch publisher (Tom Anderson) -- whose various farm publications had a total circulation of over 2 million

Spruille Braden, former US Ambassador to several south American countries

Bryton Barron, former historian for the US State Department

Col. Laurence E. Bunker -- former senior aide to Gen Douglas MacArthur

Father Richard Ginder, Editor of Catholic publication, The Priest and Associate Editor, Our Sunday Visitor

Father Francis E. Fenton, Catholic priest

Cola G. Parker, former President Kimberly-Clark Co, and President, National Association of Manufacturers

Gen. Charles B. Stone (successor to Gen. Claire Chennault as Commander, 14th Air Force in China)

Archibald B. Roosevelt (Teddy Roosevelt's grandson)

Sports figures such as: Mark Thurmond (San Diego Padres pitcher), Dave Dravecky (San Diego Padres pitcher), Eric Snow (San Diego Padres pitcher)

Newspaper columnists: Westbrook Pegler, George S. Schuyler

Former FBI Special Agents, FBI informants, or major city police department informants: Dan Smoot, W. Cleon Skousen, Matt Cvetic, Julia Brown, Lola Belle Holmes, Leonard Patterson, Manning Johnson, Gerald Kirk , David Gumaer,

Other Birchers of note:

Jack Seale, Mayor of Amarillo TX

D.B. Lewis, President, Dr. Ross Pet Foods

Ezola Foster, Former VP candidate for Reform Party (Pat Buchanan's running mate)

James J. Allman, Director Community Relations for St. Louis Police Dept – resigned to become JBS Coordinator for Missouri

Les Andrew, JBS member, was vice-chairman of United Republicans of California

H.L. Richardson, JBS member, won seat in 1966 in California State Senate

George Klicka, JBS member, elected to Wisconsin State Assembly

Kenneth J. Merkel, JBS member, elected and re-elected to Wisconsin State Assembly

J. Reese Hunter, Utah JBS member, elected to Utah Assembly

C.R. Lewis, JBS member and National Council, elected to Alaska State Senate

Dr. Bruce L. Odou, JBS member and Section Leader, elected 1963 to Montebello CA City Council and then Mayor

Leo F. Kahian, JBS member, elected town selectman in Middleboro MA

Charles Edison, JBS member and National Council, former Secretary of Navy and Governor of NJ

The JBS had all of the following avenues to disseminate its views:

* Three slick magazines, distributed nationally (American Opinion, Review of the News, The New American) whose circulation has been as high as 75,000 paid subscribers

* thousands of individual chapters in every state of our country and in some foreign countries, and tens of thousands of dues-paying members

* a Speakers Bureau which featured many of the most prominent conservatives in our nation

* American Opinion Bookstores (at one time, the largest bookstore chain in the United States)

* numerous radio programs, broadcast daily around the country

* a book publishing division which has published or reprinted HUNDREDS of books and thousands of articles

* numerous front-groups organized across the United States (at least 15 by my count)

* filmstrips, videotapes, audio cassettes (at one time, the JBS was responsible for many hundreds of showings around the U.S. of filmstrips such as "Operation Abolition" and "Communism on the Map"

* a very professional website which produces hundreds of thousands of unique "hits" per month

* Robert Welch University (which included an online accredited degree program)

Doesn't seem "small scale" to me.

that's all you could come up with?

The notion that radical right-wing groups, anti-Castro Cubans, or "rogue" CIA elements were behind the JFK assassination is contradicted by everything that followed it.

We live in a politically correct society now; the msm and our pathetic politicians would love to be able to pin JFK's assassination on out of touch, racist elements. I don't think the ghost of Edwin Walker inspired Peter Jennings and ABC, for instance, to produce that monstrosity of disinformation 40 years after the event. I don't think the extreme right-wing is influencing typical liberal celebrities like Tom Hanks and James Franco to publicly proclaim their faith in the long discredited Warren Report.

We can't look at the JFK assassination in a vacuum. A crime of that magnitude required a slew of other crimes (MLK and RFK assassinations, deaths of witnesses, etc.) in order to perpetuate the cover up. If the far Right killed JFK, they didn't accomplish anything, as the Civil Rights Act and other liberal pieces of legislation were passed. If getting rid of Castro was the motive, that didn't work, either, as Cuba effectively disappeared as an American political issue after the death of JFK.

As I wrote in an article for Penn Jones' The Continuing Inquiry over thirty years ago, the John Birch Society and similar right- wing groups have long been marginalized in this country. They didn't have the power in 1963 to get virtually the entire liberal establishment behind the bogus official story, and they certainly don't have the power now to get every television network behind their impossible fairy tale.

Oddly enough, while "liberals" from Stephen King to George Clooney continue to perpetuate the ridiculous myth about what happened in Dallas, the John Birch Society and other far-right groups believed there was a conspiracy from the get-go. Of course, they thought the commies were behind it, but few of them bought the official narrative. Looking at the phony Left-Right paradigm, in my view, sends us scurrying down paths that lead nowhere.

At this point, it should be obvious that the forces who killed the Kennedys are still in power, even if the names are different. This is demonstrated by the manner in which the subject is presented by every organ of the mainstream media, approached by lauded historians, and how all politicians of both parties toe the official line.

Don Jeffries, you're my new hero.

gotta run rebuild my altar - talk to ya'll later.

(j.k.)

GN: seeing Barr speak on one of those films, i felt that he carries a good degree of plausibility and respectability.

Until you read his book. I mean what a pile of trash.

​Ernie: the Tea Party is not just a reincarnation of the JBS. The Birch Society was really a small scale grass roots movement. I mean they actually had local bookstores to raise funds.

​The Tea Party was founded with big money from above. With allies in the media at Fox. The modern GOP knows how to create astroturf movements, that is fake grass roots.

Jim: Not sure what you mean by "small scale"....

(1) At one point, the JBS bookstores were the largest bookstore operation in our country.

(2) The JBS Speakers Bureau was comprised of literally scores of individuals who gave hundreds of speeches around the country every year and, often, local media did not mention that they were paid speakers under the auspices of the JBS

(3) In 1964, the CPA firm used by the JBS reported the following income:

John Birch Society = $1,682,517

Robert Welch Inc

(publishing house of JBS) = $1,096,912

So, for that one year alone, JBS income was $2,779,429. In today's dollars, that would be $20,962,561 !!!

(4) The JBS had chapters in every state of our country and some chapters in foreign countries. Members dues income in 1964 was $536,566 (about $4,046,801 in today's dollars) and financial contributions were $875,220 (about $6.6 million in today's dollars).

(5) Perhaps more importantly, as was the case with the Communist Party --- the JBS had about 10 times as many state-of-mind members/supporters as actual dues-paying members.

so, aside from its 'segue' into the Tax Day Tea Party (?), what in fact DID happen to the JBS? i've never heard anything of substance about it except as it relates to JFK...

I have a question which I'm not sure anybody has specifically addressed before.

What is your current best judgment regarding the number of persons who had some sort of knowledge regarding a specific plot to murder JFK?

Let me be clear: I am asking for your estimate of the grand total number of individuals who fall into the following categories:

1. Actual plotters (persons who met and conspired to create a plan to murder JFK)

2. Actual participants (persons who executed the plot i.e. they were directly responsible for murdering JFK)

3, Acquaintances (persons whom were aware of the plot because of their relationships with persons in #1 and #2; this could be relatives, friends, or others)

4. Coverup-ers (persons who had some specific knowledge about persons in one or more categories above ( #1 - #3) --- but they never revealed their knowledge to anyone

how very interesting. this question comes to my mind occasionally, for some reason. I'm still way too far from a concrete theory to have a good guess at this number. when i'm reading about Cuba and Frank Sturgis and Allen Dulles and Mary Bancroft and Michael Paine, i think there's got to be a coupla hundred that were in some way knowledgeable, before and after the act.

at other times i can't help but think of the higher risks involved with higher numbers of people who know "too much." this of course points to a strong "need to know" policy with it all. some people knew some stuff, but didn't even know what knowing this stuff meant.

i read this article last night about the bullet being superimposed onto the autopsy x-ray, and an assistant to the radiologist who described reshooting the x-rays with little pieces of bullet taped to them. and thought this guys at that moment knows something, yet has no idea what he knows.

maybe as few as ten who really pulled strings and hired hitmen and had discussions with Chief Justices - oh, wait. There's only one Chief Justice. Oh well... ok, ten "leaders."

or as many as "one hundred?" egads...

this question really leads to one of levels of knowledge, i think. like that hourglass analogy that someone described somewhere in here.

GN: seeing Barr speak on one of those films, i felt that he carries a good degree of plausibility and respectability.

Until you read his book. I mean what a pile of trash.

​Ernie: the Tea Party is not just a reincarnation of the JBS. The Birch Society was really a small scale grass roots movement. I mean they actually had local bookstores to raise funds.

​The Tea Party was founded with big money from above. With allies in the media at Fox. The modern GOP knows how to create astroturf movements, that is fake grass roots.

I'll take your word for his book being rubbish. I have too many in line to think about reading it anytime soon.

I'm trying very hard to respect your contributions to this subject as objective and responsible and effortful. your continuing leftist agenda is making it difficult.

before you rebut: doesn't matter whether what you're saying is accurate or not. the way you're putting it reeks of agenda, which is not necessary and in fact, not constructive in seeking an otherwise common goal.

I cannot think that the Tea Party today can have a remote connection to the assassination of JFK, even IF JBS did it. which they didn't.

i know for a fact that my passionate conservative world-views have NOTHING to do with my desire to find and punish someone who may still be held culpable in this thing. I'd like to think political opinions can be left out of this, just because there's a chance to take a shot at some Republicans.

do not for a second think that there are not plenty more opportunities to take some shots at some Democrats. I just let em go.

if i misunderstood that last comment, then i apologize. but i don't think i misunderstood the spirit with which it was made.

i came across this article a while back and too was quite excited about what at first looks to be a missing hwy 77 sign, etc. I pieced it all together enlarged, and even posted some questions in this forum, at the same time coming to my own conclusion that the signs are in fact still there yet really blurred, that the umbrella patch is in front of the signs where it belongs.

i have to admit, it REALLY looks like alteration to me, that the signs are not there, but i think that blurring also plays a part in it.

i'm more at issue with the people underneath, and am NOT convinced that they haven't "moved around" underneath that sign some.

i wrote something the other day that referred to the UM and the DCM, and as i wrote it i got that shiver - that feeling - that i haven't experienced in quite a while. Of all the little puzzle pieces in Dealey in those photographs, these two guys I think more likely to be playing a direct role, right in front of God and Everybody, than anything else.

I AM convinced that DC man is giving a signal to someone. and that gives me the willies. wow.

anyway, you get my point. there HAD to be a better way to fire a flechette that day. IF one were even used...

Perhaps a modified Colt 45 Model 1911-A suits your purposes better?

right. i should have finished with "and remain conspicuous."

no, i understood - i didn't even mean to correct you; i remember those waves - Mafia Kingfish, Davis, took my virginity...

i was just taking the opportunity to expound, i.e. these people probably STILL stick to their guns. the theories certainly still have life of their own.

you're right, the titles of some of these are unashamedly dramatic, i'm guessing for, lemme think, --- sales? which makes their content, and the author, suspect, In - to borrow Trejo's mantra - MHO (that's H for Humble, though, in this case).

seeing Barr speak on one of those films, i felt that he carries a good degree of plausibility and respectability.

but, no, i wasn't disagreeing at all. just grabbing yet another soapbox.

Colonel Prouty sent me this photograph of the flechette dart. It is placed next to a dime for size comparison purposes.

seeing a picture of the little bugger does change my perspective just a bit, i have to admit. certainly looks effective.

my concerns are still around its delivery, though. i just think there would be better ways to have done it than an umbrella on a sunny day. doesn't sound to me like something i'd plan in advance when i KNOW there are other delivery methods. The designers of these things didn't rely on rain for implementation; they simply worked with it ("ok, let's put one of these 'guns' in an umbrella, for use when it's raining"... and "let's put one in a cane, and one in a rolled up newspaper, and one in a woman's tampon...' - hey, you never know when it's the right time to kill, right?).

anyway, you get my point. there HAD to be a better way to fire a flechette that day. IF one were even used...