Scott Tame

You'd do well to follow your own advice, David. When I quoted O'Connor's statement from Lifton's book about a shipping casket coming in at 8:00 you disputed it and asked for a source.

Anybody following this thread can plainly see that I attached a copy of the report the HSCA did on it's interview with O'Neill to support my claim that he saw the body removed from the casket that he helped bring in. Mr. Josephs backs up his claim by typing the word "after" in caps. Again, to anybody following this discussion, James DiEugenio does a great job of addressing this topic in his review of Inside the ARRB on CTKA.net. http://ctka.net/reviews/horne_jd.html I'm sure it's quite clear to people following this thread that my quotes of Mr. Joseph, were to show that I had answered the question he asked. It documents how he'll ask for one thing, then ask for something else when he doesn't like the answer he gets. For those of you who are new to the assassination, I have dealt with this shouting and hand waving in the past. Ralph Cinque would use the same tactic in discussions on another forum.

Wait! Now you don't want me to point out any post 8:00 witnesses, but want me to post a image of "Autopsy Evidence" instead? Maybe we can create a thread titled "Dave Josephs Flip Flops On What He Asks For."

No, David. There appears to be sections of research you are not aware of.

Very good, David! As we can see from the quotes below that is exactly what you asked for; post 8:00 witnesses. I can't help it if you're not happy that it shoots down your claim that nobody after 8:00 saw the same wounds seen at Dallas. "If you could please point to a post 8pm autopsy witness who see's and tells about only a hole to the right rear... it would be helpful in my understanding your point... " "I asked if you could point out anyone from AFTER 8pm who says that, who was not there when the shipping casket was opened at 6:45." "Boswell's drawing comes AFTER HUMES performs "surgery to the top of the head".... and as we can see - not a single person who sees JFK prior to 8pm says a different thing... while all those after 8pm and after the damage is done, describes a thoroughly enlarged and completely changed injury" Oops! I guess the part I underlined isn't quite true after all.

I've already posted the names of numerous Bethesda witnesses who described a wound in the right rear of the head several times already. Let me make it easier for you and narrow it down to two: James Siebert Frank O'Neill

Very good, David! You've shown what I've been saying all along. There are serious conflicts with the autopsy evidence. The x-rays show a downward trajectory and the autopsy report describes an upward trajectory. According to you Humes made alterations showing an upward one then reconstructed the head showing a downward one all in a matter of hours. Why would anyone do that? Who creates evidence that seriously conflicts with alterations they allegedly just made of the wounds?

Each one of these people sees JFK prior to 8pm... WHOA!! Hold on there! It's YOUR position that Siebert and O'Neill brought in an empty casket at 7:17 and the body didn't come in until 8:00 so that makes them both post 8:00 witnesses by YOUR account. The rest didn't just disappear at 8:00. They were still there after as well. No "this witness" didn't look at the lateral x-ray and claim he saw a massive occipital wound. This quote is from Ebersole when he is being shown autopsy photo 42 of the back of the head.

Very interested in this set of questions as well as any response. Well, if we are to go by eyewitness accounts: 6:45 a shipping casket comes in according to Dennis David (he doesn't see a body) 7:17 the Dallas casket comes in with JFKs body (O'Neill see's the body removed and unwrapped) 8:00 JFKs body is brought in again in the Dallas casket by the MDW team 8:00 JFKs body is brought in in a shipping casket(source Paul O'Connor)

Each one of these people sees JFK prior to 8pm... We see once again you simply cannot address the 6:40-8pm timeframe and how the drawings/witnesses of a 2-3 inch hole in the back of his head becomes the ENTIRE SKULL MISSING from the occipital to the Frontal bone fron the Midline down to the ear... These people didn't up and leave at 8:00, Dave, so that makes them post 8:00 witnesses as well.

Well, Dave, I asked you a number of times why you attached special significance to 8:00, You refused to answer. Where your theory completely falls apart is your argument that wounds were altered to hide a shot from the front, and then the head is reconstructed to take photos and x-rays that conflict with the wound alterations just performed. Anybody reading this thread who is curious about the wound alteration theory should read the review of Inside the ARRB at CTKA.net

Each one of these people sees JFK prior to 8pm... We see once again you simply cannot address the 6:40-8pm timeframe and how the drawings/witnesses of a 2-3 inch hole in the back of his head becomes the ENTIRE SKULL MISSING from the occipital to the Frontal bone fron the Midline down to the ear... I'm not avoiding your qestion Dave. I'm just trying to figure out why you attach special relevence to 8:00. Because if you endorse Liftons theory, then the body entered the morgue with the wounds alredy altered, What someone saw before or after that time would be irrelevent because it would be the same.

And no Scott.. we are talking about the Bethesda Autopsy Medical evidence which Mr Speer believes is the condition of the head in Dallas... The xrays, photos, autopsy report and its supplemental IS the evidence whic contradicts everyone who sees JFK prior to 8pm... EVERYONET The photos and x-rays also contradict the autopsy report. So you need to specify what you are refering to when you say "Bethesda Autopsy Evidence." You can't address this because it shoots your body alteration theory all to hell. I mean who alters wounds, then reconstructs the head so the photos and x-rays they take contradict the wound alterations they just made! You mean to tell me the conspirators didn't have enough sense to make them match. I feel like I'm debating Cinque on the Lancer Forum all over again.

The autopsy photos and x-rays don't match the autopsy report or the descriptions of the wounds by the Bethesda witnesses. Some people believe the photos and x-rays are forgeries while some believe that they are authentic and the body is a "medical forgery." Let's think about that last one for a minute. The body is stolen and wounds are altered to remove evidence of a shot from the rear. Now, after they've gone through all that trouble, they alter the body a second time to produce photos and X-rays that don't even remotely resemble the alterations they just made. Now they have to undo the alterations from the reconstruction so the morticians can reassemble the head with an area of missing scalp in the back. So to recap... we start with a small scalp wound in the back; then scalp is removed from the whole right side from front to back; then scalp is added to hide this wound for photos; and finally a small area of scalp is removed from the back of the head. Makes perfect sense.

More like Dallas vs. the x-rays, which is quite a bit different than Dallas vs. the Bethesda eyewitnesses and what the autopsy report describes. There is a difference Dave and you need to be specific as to which you are referring to. Just saying Bethesda doesn't cut it.

Boyers ". . . right side and towards the rear. . ." Ebersole ". . . my recollection is more of a gaping occipital wound . . ." Jenkins ". . . middle temporal region back to the occipital." O'Niell drew a wound above and behind the ear for the HSCA. Reed told the HSCA the wound was very large and located in the right hemisphere in the occipital region. Riebe told the HSCA there was one very large wound located around the rear of the head near the top. Siebert ". . . upper back of the head."

As I asked Pat... maybe you can point to anyone anywhere who drew us a pre 8pm picture of JFK's wounds that looks anything at all like the evidence below.... neither of you seem to be able to do so, nor can you address the 6:40 thru 8pm time period with any sense of reality. I don't understand your fixation with 8:00. Are you suggesting that the hole in the scalp was the same size as the hole in the skull? For us all, once and for all, explain how xrays of JFK are taken while the ambulance from Andrews is pulling up, while Jackie and Bobby are coming inside, BEFORE the SS/FBI teams bring in THAT casket at 7:17... Can you fashion a post that addresses these key issues or as we are seeing over and over, you and Pat simply avoid what you can't explain...? I'm still waiting for you to explain the shipping casket O'Connor said came in a 8:00. You seem to be avoiding it. Now it sounds like you're just guessing Scott.... if that was the fact, the autopsy evidence would show a LARGE HOLE in the right rear of the head... it does not... the LARGE OPENING is now extending from the occipial to and thru the FRONTAL BONE... (c'mon here Scott... LOOK at the graphic below, the drawings from Parkland and the xrays which followed... Bell, Crenshaw, McClellend, Sibert, Robinson, even Boswell's initial drawing does not show the entire right side of his skull gone...) Tell me David, do you believe that the x-rays are forgeries or do you believ, like Lifton, that the body was reconstructed for the photos and x-rays?

The larger wound dimensions described at Bethedsa can be easily explained by the fact that the hole in the skull was much larger than the hole in the scalp. As for the original wound, the morticians described an area of missing scalp in the back of the head approximately 3 inches across.

Best Evidence - David Lifton Pg. 598 Taken from his interview of O'Connor. K Buddy?

" Lifton does an amazing job explaining those being in the exact spots that I posted in the autopsy illustration earlier... " Oh I've read it and seen the illustration and there's nothing "in the exact spots" you illustrated. You seem to be saying that there's missing scalp above the right ear.

Do you mean the shipping casket O'Connor said "came in at eight o'clock on the dot" buddy? Are you suggesting that the hole seen in Parkland wasn't there after 8:00?

In my view of what you write, "earliest" meaning those who see JFK prior to the 8 pm casket entry and unveiling... O'Connor and Reed, Robinson, Ebersole, Humes & Boswell..etc... If you could please point to a post 8pm autopsy witness who see's and tells about only a hole to the right rear... it would be helpful in my understanding your point... By earliest I mean the first statements given describing their recollections of the wounds. For many of the witnesses at Bethesda this would be the HSCA. You can start with some of the people you name above. With regards to the scalp tear "extensions"... Lifton does an amazing job explaining those being in the exact spots that I posted in the autopsy illustration earlier... Where does Lifton describe tears radiating fron a hole above the rt. ear. The only illustration I remember of the tears in his book appears to have the tears radiating from a hole in the top of the head.

Sounds like she is referring to the bone flap on the side of the head. I have a question. If scalp and bone are missing, what would she be trying to hold down?