Terry Mauro

***************************************************************** "I have also been warned that if post information of this cover-up via the forum or my website I am in danger of being “discredited”. I was told at the same time that the CIA no longer kill people trying to disclose information on covert activities." That's right, John. The do what they did to Gary Webb and others who tend to get in their way. Something known as, "character assassination."

******************************************************************** "Is there any chance of your allerting Truthout readers of the existence of this forum, and also telling them that THE WRITING ON THIS SITE IS ILLUMINATING ABOUT MUCH MORE THAN THE JFK ASSASSINATION BUT ALSO DIRECTLY BEARS ON OUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE CORPORATE MEDIA, GROWING SECRECY OF GOV ETC ALL OF WHICH HAVE direcly lead to the untelevised coffins returning from and burried in Iraq?" Thank you, Nathaniel, but I think either John Simkin, or maybe even yourself would more likely do a better job of introducing the readership of truthout.org to The Education Forum's database and commentary. You'd have to check with John though, because I'm not sure what details may be involved. In fact, a friend of mine and forum member, Steve Gaal, signed me up with truthout.org's mailing list a few years back. It's free, as well.

******************************************************************* John, what I've done with your McCone page is to copy the text [only] on it, then paste it into an e-mail to myself. I've managed to store info in my "Saved" box, over the years, by doing that with just the text. Here's some info I downloaded on De Torres awhile back. I'm not sure where I got it from now, because I resorted to copying only the text in the event that whatever site had it up might end up disappearing from the web, along with the info. Paragraphs 9 and 10 are high-lighted and De Torres' name in bold. See below: FTR#288-Update on the JFK Assassination-(One 30-minute segment) (Sources are noted in parentheses.) (Recorded on 4/8/2001.) 1. Bringing up to date the investigation into President Kennedy's assassination, this program begins with discussion of a recent British forensic scientific study that proves what serious investigators have long known-that there was a fourth (and fatal shot) from the grassy knoll. "The House Assassinations Committee may have been right after all: There was a shot from the grassy knoll. That was the key finding of the congressional investigation that concluded 22 years ago that President 'John F. Kennedy's murder in Dallas in 1963 was 'probably the result of a conspiracy.' A shot from the grassy knoll meant that two gunmen must have fired at the president within a split-second sequence. Lee Harvey Oswald, accused of firing three shots at Kennedy from a perch at the Texas School Book Depository, could not have been in two places at once. . . . A new, peer-reviewed article in Science and Justice, a quarterly publication of Britain's Forensic Science Society. . . . said it was more than 96 percent certain that there was a shot from the grassy knoll to the right of the president's limousine, in addition to the three shots from a book depository window above and behind the president's limousine." ("Study backs Theory of 'grassy knoll'" by George Lardner Jr.; The Washington Post; 3/26/2001.) For more on the assassination of President Kennedy, see also: G#'s 1-4, RFA#'s 5, 6, 8, 9, 11-13, 15, 37, Miscellaneous Archive Shows M3, M4, M29, M37, M20, M30, M38, M59, as well as FTR#'s 8, 19, 21, 46, 47, 54, 62, 63, 76, 104, 115, 116, 133, 142, 158, 168, 188, 190, 191, 228, 236, 244, 246, 253.) 2. Much of the rest of the program consists of discussion of aspects of the House Select Committee's investigation that are unlikely to be analyzed in the Washington Post. In 1999, investigator Bill Davy published a remarkable book about New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison's investigation into the JFK assassination. (Let Justice Be Done; by William Davy; Copyright 1999 [sC]; Jordan Publishing; ISBN 0-9669716-0-4.) Relying largely on documents declassified in the wake of the Oliver Stone film JFK, Davy's extraordinary book validates much of what Garrison had to say. (Davy is interviewed in FTR#190.) 3. FTR#288 highlights parts of the HSCA's investigation that support Garrison's thesis. "HSCA Chief Counsel, G. Robert Blakey, once referred to the Committee's work as 'the last investigation.' As such, it is only proper that the HSCA have the last word on Clay Shaw. On September 1, 1977, staff counsel Jonathan Blackmer, authored a 15-page memorandum addressed to Blakey, as well as staff members, Gary Cornwell, Ken Klein, and Cliff Fenton. Blackmer was the lead counsel for team 3, the HSCA team responsible for the New Orleans and Cuban angles of the investigation. After an investigative trip to New Orleans, Blackmer concluded in his memo: 'We have reason to believe Shaw was heavily involved in the anti-Castro efforts in New Orleans in the 1960's and [was] possibly one of the high level planners or 'cut out' to the planners of the assassination.'" (Let Justice Be Done; p. 202.) 4. Clay Shaw was, of course, the individual tried by Garrison for Kennedy's assassination. The first suspect investigated by Garrison was David Ferrie. In its final report, the House Select Committee also recommended that the Department of Justice investigate Ferrie and his anti-Castro Cuban associates in the New Orleans area. Ferrie had operated as an investigator for Guy Banister's detective agency in New Orleans. The Banister operation, in turn, had served as an apparent intelligence front for covert operations against Cuba. Ferrie was instrumental in running a training facility at Lake Ponchartrain (Louisiana), at which Cuban exiles received guerilla training for operations against Castro. 5. The House Select Committee appears to have obtained a film of this facility, which connects some very interesting people. "It is possible that a film once existed of this training camp. The former Deputy Chief Counsel of the House Select Committee on Assassinations, Robert Tannenbaum, recalled that the committee viewed the film and to Tannenbaum it was a shock to the system. 'The movie was shocking to me because it demonstrated the notion that the CIA was training, in America, a separate army,' he said. 'It was shocking to me because I'm a true believer in the system and yet there are notorious characters in the system, who are funded by the system, who are absolutely un-American! And who knows what they would do, eventually. What if we send people to Washington who they can't deal with? Out comes their secret army? So, I find that to be as contrary to the Constitution as you can get.' What is even more shocking is what the film reveals. According to Tannenbaum, depicted in the film among the Cuban exiles were Guy Banister, David Atlee Philips and Lee Harvey Oswald. Inexplicably, the film would later disappear from the Committee's files." (Ibid.; p. 30.) The Banister "detective agency" was also involved with collecting intelligence on the American civil rights movement, and was deeply involved with white supremacist organizations. (For more on this subject, see also: L#3, RFA#12, FTR#188.) 6. The House Select Committee also developed information linking Banister employee Ferrie, Oswald and Clay Shaw. Credible eyewitness testimony places these individuals at a Clinton (Louisiana) voter registration drive in August of 1963. "The chairman of the Clinton chapter of CORE [Congress Of Racial Equality], Corrie Collins, was monitoring the drive outside the Registrar's office, when at approximately 10:00a.m. he noticed the arrival of the car. Thinking they might be FBI, Collins studied the car and its occupants closely. As the car came to a stop, he observed a young white male exit the rear of the car and enter the registration line, while the driver and the other passenger remained in the car. Later, under oath, at the trial of Clay Shaw in 1969 and in his testimony to the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) in 1978, Collins would identify the driver of the car as Clay Shaw, the passenger as David Ferrie, and the person in the registration line as Lee Harvey Oswald." (Ibid.; pp. 103-104.) 7. "A mere four years later, Congress would conclude that '[the HSCA] was inclined to believe that Oswald was in Clinton La., in late August, early September 1963, and that he was in the company of David Ferrie, if not Clay Shaw. . . [the Clinton witnesses] established an association of an undetermined nature between Ferrie, Shaw, and Oswald less than 3 months before the assassination.' The committee added that they 'also found that there was at least a possibility that Oswald and Guy 'Banister were acquainted.' They further concluded that the 'CIA-Mafia-Cuban plots had all the elements necessary for a successful assassination conspiracy.' It is probably the ultimate irony that the U.S. government's conclusions echoed those of Jim Garrison a decade earlier." (Ibid.; p. 189.) 8. Banister's New Orleans office also served as the headquarters of the Anti-Communist League of the Caribbean, part of what would formally coalesce as the World Anti-Communist League in 1967. (For more on WACL, see also: RFA#'s 14, 15, 18, 19, 21, 27, 29, 30, 36, 37.) 9. While investigating Eladio del Valle, Ferrie's associate in covert operations against Cuba, Garrison's investigating team was infiltrated by an anti-Castro Cuban with strong ties to the intelligence community. This operative, Bernardo de Torres, may well have been involved with the assassination itself. His name later cropped up in connection with the assassination of Orlando Letelier. (For more on the assassination of Letelier, see also: RFA#'s 4, 19, 20, 22, 30, 37, as well as FTR#'s 259, 268, 284.) 10. "On the day Ferrie died, del Valle was found brutally murdered in his car in the parking lot of a Miami shopping center. Prior to that, Garrison had sent a part-time investigator named Bernardo de Torres to question del Valle. De Torres was a military coordinator for the Brigade 2506 part of the exile landing force during the Bay of Pigs invasion. He was captured by Castro's forces and detained until Christmas Eve of 1962. He eventually found his way to New Orleans where, according to de Torres, he was approached by Sergeant Duffy of the NOPD and asked to join Garrison's staff. As with many other investigators and volunteers at Tulane and Broad, de Torres' bona fides are suspect. First of all, it was de Torres who showed up at the D.A.'s office in New Orleans very early in Garrison's investigation claiming he had important information. He said he was a private detective who wanted to help and dropped the name of Miami D.A. Richard Gerstein as an entrée. Shortly after de Torres was given the assignment to question del Valle, del Valle's brutalized body was discovered in the vicinity of de Torres' Miami apartment. It was later determined that de Torres was filing reports on Garrison to the Miami CIA station, JM/WAVE. Not long after he left Garrison's staff, de Torres went to work for Mitch Werbell's Military Armament Corporation, a large supplier of weaponry to the CIA. The HSCA developed evidence that de Torres was actually a CIA officer with links to Military Intelligence. A well connected anti-Castro Cuban, Arturo Cobos told the FBI that de Torres was 'the man to call with contacts on a high level with the CIA in Washington, D.C.' The HSCA also came into possession of investigative information, which indicated that de Torres may have been in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination, and further, that he may have been involved in an assassination conspiracy, charges which de Torres denies. As for Garrison, he later came to believe that de Torres was one of his earliest sources of misinformation and recalled that whatever information de Torres provided never went anywhere. In the late 1970's, de Torres would be linked to the bombing assassination of Chilean leader Orlando Letelier in Washington, D.C." (Ibid.; pp. 148-149.) 11. In RFA#30 and FTR#268 (among other broadcasts), we examined connecting links between the Iran-Contra scandal and the Letelier assassination. 12. FTR#288 concludes with discussion of connections between Iran-Contra drug smuggler Barry Seal, Ferrie and Lee Harvey Oswald. "On July 16, 1955, his 16th birthday, Seal got his pilot's license. The information will be contained in a forthcoming book, Barry and the Boys by Daniel Hopsicker. Two weeks later, he boarded a U.S. Air Force plane for a two-week summer camp with the Civil Air Patrol at Barksdale Air Force Base in Shreveport, Louisiana. There he came under the command of David Ferrie, and met fellow cadet Lee Harvey Oswald, two principal figures in the assassination of President John F. Kennedy." ("Inside the Octopus" by Preston Peet; The Best of High Times, #28; p. 81.) 13. Later in his career, Seal went to work for the 20th Special Forces Group, elements of which were giving military training to the Ku Klux Klan and were also present in Memphis, Tennessee on the day Martin Luther King was assassinated. (See also: FTR#46.) "He [seal] was assigned to the 21st Special Forces Group and went to jump school in Ft. Benning, Georgia. On May 1, 1963, Seal was assigned to Company D, Special Ops Detachment of the 20th Special Forces Group-Spec Forces Group Airborne." (Ibid.; p. 82.) 14. Some observers believe Seal may have been connected to the assassination of JFK. "During this time, just before President Kennedy was killed, an illuminating photograph was taken. A smiling 24-year-old Seal is seated at a nightclub table in Mexico City with [Watergate burglar] Frank Sturgis, [iran-Contra operative] Felix Rodriguez, and William Seymour, all members of the CIA's assassination squad, Operation 40. Louis Gaudin an air-traffic controller at Redbird Airport, located south of Dallas, told the FBI he recalled observing three men in business suits board a Comanche-type aircraft hours after the assassination. Seal owned such a plane, and many believe he flew the plane that spirited the assassins to Canada." (Idem.) (For more on Seal, see also: RFA#'s 29, 33 and FTR#'s 181, 249. For more on Rodriguez, see also: RFA#'s 29, 30, FTR#268. For more on Sturgis, see G#3.) (Recorded on 4/8/2001.)

********************************************************************* I've been catching this on both PBS channels out here, KCET and KLCS, for the past year, and I can't help but feel remorse at what the passage of time, in this case 40 years, can wreak upon the human body. It's also quite revealing how the illness of a spouse, in this case June Carter Cash, and their subsequent demise can tend to accellerate the failing health of the one left behind. I don't believe they were all that old at the time, either. Or, maybe it's just my own tendency to remember them as they were, as a family, on their televised Christmas Specials, and in the PBS American Masters biographies of their lives. They seemingly become frozen in time. And, in the words of Bob Dylan, "Forever Young." "May God bless and keep you always May your wishes all come true May you always do for others And let others do for you May you build a ladder to the stars And climb on every rung And may you stay forever young May you stay forever young..." _______________________________________ "at the flood-ravaged House of Cash Museum" John, do you know off-hand, which flood it was that destroyed the museum? Thanks, Ter

Bill Moyers describes the horrible state of education in America as the epitome of public neglect; the Bush administration puts out a basic guide to building an atomic bomb on the internet; oversite office closed in Iraq after scandals; Paul Krugman writes that Bechtel is leaving Iraq without power, clean water and sewage treatment, but with $2.3 billion of US taxpayers' money in pocket; Robert Parry writes that America is a nation hurtling toward totalitarianism and endless warfare; insurgent attacks show no signs of abating in Iraq; Nick Turse exposes an American style global gulag; and more ... Browse our continually updating front page at http://www.truthout.org

Really Tosh? Post number 22 in this very thread was a dupe from you. Maybe you just don't want to fall out of touch with me. If that's the case then it's no problem. I have some ideas on topics we can cover. Unless an open discussion is too overt for you and you'd rather be a thread xxxxx. After all your work history indicates a strong preference for covert ops. ************************************************************************** "Unless an open discussion is too overt for you and you'd rather be a thread xxxxx. After all your work history indicates a strong preference for covert ops." You know, Myra. I was once like you were, and threw a rant at Bill over at Lancer about 2 years ago, before realizing how misplaced my anger actually was. There's no axe to grind here, really. It's too bad Hemming no longer frequents this site because IMO, he's more than likely the only one still alive and lucent enough to remember everything he was assigned to do, or commit, though he'll never cop to it. Why not spend your energy going after manipulators and facillitators higher up on the ladder of success, like Felix Rodriguez, or John Hull, and/or those higher profile Iran-Contra operatives, such as that lying sack of xxxx, Singlaub, for example, who bald-face lied his way through those televised hearings, along with that son-of-a-bitch gofer of his, Ollie North. I believe "covert ops" circa the 70's and 80's were more geared up to drug-running and arms trafficking. I also believe, and I speculate here, that assassinations of heads-of-state were, and are, carried out under the auspices of the "Felix Rodriguez" caliber of covert officer. I could be dead wrong, but IMO, the taking out of high profile officials seems to warrant the expertise of a higher ranking officer. But, again, I speculate here. I just don't think Bill is the trained, cold-blooded killer you would like to make him out to be. But, that's just MHO. Well you make a lot of good points Terry and it's good that we're discussing this. I'll try to answer. For one thing, I was done with the subject in post #23. Then when William Plumlee (WP) posted #36 calling me dumb for accidently posting a dupe, I felt that was a pretty silly post and replied with a post that said, in essence, instead of hiding and firing spitballs how about being up front. But pouncing on a dupe post to call someone dumb. C'mon. However I think you're asking about the bigger picture of why I confronted him. Ok, so I come into the forum and there's a self-professed CIA guy. I think 'how odd, I thought CIA folks hated/killed Kennedy.' But I realize he's an individual and that this is a rare opportunity to actually ask questions, which he seems open to. So I start reading around on the web and quickly find that statement where he discribes his flight on the day President Kennedy was killed. It's a pretty strange story, and the obvious questions arise, like: Could this really have been an abort mission when the CIA/Cuban exiles supposedly hated the President for the bay of pigs thing agreeing not to invade Cuba? Could this really have been an abort mission when someone widely thought to be one of the shooters, Roselli, was being transported from attempted assassination city to ultimate assassination city? So I ask WP how he felt about President Kennedy, and he says he liked him and (paraphrasing) thought he was a big loss to the country. That was a pleasant surprise so I ask if his attitude is typical among his colleagues and he says yes. Another pleasant surprise but confusing since I interpreted this quote from his statement the wrong way: "The people on the flight out of Dallas were very quiet. I interpreted their silence as dejection at the mission's failure to abort the assassination of the President. I believed that if these men had been the shooters or assassins themselves, they would have been very excited because they had carried it off." Thinking that meant the passengers were disappointed they weren't the ones who got to do the killing, which doesn't jibe with colleagues who tended to favor JFK, I asked for clarification. A third person clarified, WP confirmed, and I expressed relief and said I hoped he understood my confusion etc. But I still have a million questions 'cause I want to take advantage of the opportunity to ask them, plus I don't understand why one of the likely shooters was on an abort mission so I ask that. I also send links with pictures of people photographed in Dealey Plaza that look like known CIA ops, and ask if he recognizes anybody. I consider that research, which is what we're all doing here. And just in case I'm asking too many questions I add the following: "I hope you don't mind all the questions. I'm just trying to piece things together as so many here are. If you can't answer some then I understand." That should have made it clear that if he felt bugged he should ignore the questions or state he'd rather not answer or can't answer or whatever 'cause I didn't want to impose. Hard to imagine how I could have been clearer. Yet at that point I get jumped on by you and another board member posting rather provocative and hostile jibes, but not directed at me, rather about me. Not much appreciated... Esp in light of the fact that I had repeatedly made clear that he didn't owe me answers to any questions. How are you with psychology? I'm guessing you're pretty good, so you know that if someone is being dumped on and accused of something they likely won't respond in the best way, and it was like a match in front of a pilot light. So here's why the match ignited. The murder of President Kennedy is horribly emotional for me, and no doubt for many here. That's why I thanked WP early on for his answers, and said it was difficult and emotional. Not only did we get robbed of a man who had evolved into a damn good president, who put people over profits, but the country devolved -- from that point on -- into the fascist hell hole we're in today. The clans and people who are now imitating the WW2 nazis and ruling the US, are the same clans and people who killed JFK. I fukin' hate the CIA for murdering him. While I care much more about the people planned things, obviously they (CIA, funders, LBJ, Nixon) couldn't carry out their plans without foot soldiers willing to take money for murder. They couldn't do it without foot soldiers willing to take money to spread propaganda and cover up the crimes. And while the planners are worse than the foot soldiers to me, that's just a relative thing. They're all plenty bad. Through statements and posts we've been told things that I find incredible: The CIA was trying to save Kennedy's life. The CIA was trying to save Kennedy's life by flying a notorious mobster and assassin into Dallas where he was murdered. In spite of the bay of pigs and all the bad blood between JFK and the CIA, the CIA worker bees liked him, and John Roselli liked Kennedy and told WP that. Didn't Roselli work for Sam Giancana? Didn't Giancana dispise JFK for supposedly double crossing him for using his help to get elected, then allowing his attorney general to go after the mob? Is it even remotely possible that Roselli didn't dispise JFK too, let alone like him? It appears that some of this must be untrue, unless we're really in bizarro world...But since we are in fact in bizarro world (we're through the looking glass; black is white and white is black) it could be that Roselli didn't shoot anybody in Dallas that day. We get so much disinfo that who the hell knows what's fact and what's fiction. Well, that's largely due to the CIA too. They've spread so much propaganda and muddied so many facts to insure people stay befuddled, and made people so paranoid...or is it paranoia if someone's really out to get you? Through the looking glass. And does it matter if we're being lied to still? It does to me. They do wear us down with disinfo. Gaeton Fonzi describes how much time and energy he's wasted on disinfo. Most of us aren't doing the level of investigation that Fonzi did, but the BS and covert crap still takes a toll. Look how paranoid people are about stealth trolls in forums like this. You were concerned that I was one, which is somewhat understandible with a newbie. But we can thank the American KGB for a lot of the paranoia. They've seriously damaged the country, the world. Well, that's largely due to the CIA too. They've spread so much propaganda and muddied so many facts to insure people stay befuddled, and made people so paranoid...or is it paranoia if someone's really out to get you? Through the looking glass. And does it matter if we're being lied to still? It does to me. They do wear us down with disinfo. Gaeton Fonzi describes how much time and energy he's wasted on disinfo. Most of us aren't doing the level of investigation that Fonzi did, but the BS and covert crap still takes a toll. And that's the best I can explain it. Anyway, I am focusing on manipulators and facillitators higher up on the ladder of success as well. And I agree to some extent with Jim Marrs who wants people to focus on 911 rather than JFK because it's fresher and the internet has allowed people to more quickly assimilate evidence. But both JFK and 911 are important. The past crimes and current crimes are important (and linked; JFK and 911 had many similarities). Tho' I'm still not sure how to "go after" the guys on the ladder. ********************************************************************** Excellent post, Myra. But, remember that those people associated with Langley, be they agents, assets, covert, and otherwise, will often cite "compartmentalization," "cut-outs," "dual or multiple identities," and the basis of "Need to know." under which all plans, productions, operations are umbrella'ed. It's claimed that such protocol ensures one unit, or cell's liability against the failure of another, and vice versa. Although, more often than not, it appears to be exactly what you've stated above: "Well, that's largely due to the CIA too. They've spread so much propaganda and muddied so many facts to insure people stay befuddled, and made people so paranoid...or is it paranoia if someone's really out to get you? Through the looking glass. And does it matter if we're being lied to still? It does to me. They do wear us down with disinfo. Gaeton Fonzi describes how much time and energy he's wasted on disinfo. Most of us aren't doing the level of investigation that Fonzi did, but the BS and covert crap still takes a toll." Doug Horn is another hero, who worked against all odds, as well. "The murder of President Kennedy is horribly emotional for me, and no doubt for many here. That's why I thanked WP early on for his answers, and said it was difficult and emotional. Not only did we get robbed of a man who had evolved into a damn good president, who put people over profits, but the country devolved -- from that point on -- into the fascist hell hole we're in today. The clans and people who are now imitating the WW2 nazis and ruling the US, are the same clans and people who killed JFK. I fukin' hate the CIA for murdering him. While I care much more about the people planned things, obviously they (CIA, funders, LBJ, Nixon) couldn't carry out their plans without foot soldiers willing to take money for murder. They couldn't do it without foot soldiers willing to take money to spread propaganda and cover up the crimes. And while the planners are worse than the foot soldiers to me, that's just a relative thing. They're all plenty bad." But, the level of intensity in your thankfulness bordered on seeming overly patronizing. I'm not sure what your age is here, but I would venture to guess it as being younger than those of us "more jaded types" who were already into adulthood, or on the threshold of it, on 11-22-63. The passion and indignation you express, as well as your astute awareness of the connection between this coup d'etat with the present socio-economic and political debacle gripping this country today, are more than commendable, to say the least. Too bad we aren't allowed to take this into the schools today, and educate the children in understanding the gravity of the situation they'll be facing. They are our only key to turning this thing around and possibly helping the human race evolve beyond the mindset of the last two hundred years. I try to do the best I can, and in my own way, by sharing my library with those who appear cognizant and open to alternative questions, answers, and the free exchange of ideas. But, it's been a slow and tedious process due to the mass indoctrination of the public by the commercial media machine presently in place [Operation Mockingbird]. Most of the time I feel as if I'm pissing into the wind. Parents have become overly suspicious of all adults, regardless of whether you're a blood relative, or a friend. Children are discouraged from forming any kind of mentoring bond with an adult for fear of pedophilia. Although, I would venture to guess that most of the perpetrators of these acts might still be institutionalized in those facilities, had they not been forced to close under Reagan's Voo Doo, aka Supply-Side Economics programs of the 80's. It's really unfortunate that today's parents may never be afforded the peace of mind our parents, and we as children, once had now that they're allowed to be housed in "half-way homes" across the street from public schools, or down the block in our own neighborhoods. The world has become a far more dangerous, as well as, closed-minded place in which to navigate. As far as LBJ and Nixon? LBJ was considered to be a country bumpkin and a buffoon, as far as the Establishment was concerned [forget about Texas], as well as a political risk, not only to JFK's second campaign for the presidency, but for what the connotations of his associations with Billy Sol Estes, and Bobby Baker could mean to his political standing in the Senate, alone. JFK, or no JFK. The only feather in an otherwise tattered ten-gallon hat, was LBJ's signing of the Civil Rights Bill. As for Nixon, he was thought of as a Quaker, and would never garner the respect of the Establishment Elite, nor be able to claw or climb his way up their ladder of success. Wrong blood type, not BLUE enough, not polished enough, not rich enough. His only redeeming qualities were Roe vs Wade, and for opening up dialogue with China, all overshadowed by Watergate. Too bad Reagan's regime couldn't have been as publicly ostracized for Iran-Contragate, a far more insidious fiasco than Watergate, IMHO. O.K. I'm on my way to work now.

***************************************************************** "a European perspective, July 14, 2003 Reviewer: "quagga3" (Paris, France) - See all my reviews From a European perspective there is nothing new in the fact that John F. Kennedy was murdered by several assassins and that several shots were fired from the front - at least that is what I was taught at school in the seventies, with the cautionary remark that Americans were too naive to be able to accept the truth - the truth being not only the facts of the JFK murder but the much more sinister fact that they were lied at by several successive governments, by the CIA, the FBI, and almost all their mass media. Maybe it was easier to see this truth from a continent that had been ravaged by a horrible war where unbelievable atrocities had been committed in the name of governments. Maybe it was easier because the European nations had had more than their share of "Tyrannenmord" in the past. When I grew up during the "Cold War" I actually did not see that much difference between the Soviet government and the U.S. government. They used somewhat different methods to hush up their dirty secrets but they were both effective up to a point. Apart from the simple facts which one of the eye-witnesses at last discloses this book strikes me most by the effect it had in its first edition. What is most strange and not a little frightening is the way the American media still dictate the people what to believe and what not. Even now, 40 years after, they are still trying to hide the truth, to distort what cannot be hidden, to spread disinformation, to influence or discredit witnesses, and in this case to shed doubt on the reliability and the reputation of a distinguished surgeon. In an unprecedented act of defamation a scientific(!) journal, the "Journal of the American Medical Association" (JAMA) called Dr Crenshaw's book "a fabrication". Crenshaw sued for "slander with malice" and won in court but the damage to his reputation cannot be undone. The motto of cover-up people has always been "Audacter calumniare, semper aliquid haeret". The courageous author of this book is no exception." http://www.amazon.com/Trauma-Room-One-Medi...3139235-5012037 Their perspective is spot on! Thanks for putting that up. "And the fact that it was never a democracy anyway because of the electoral college, which was designed to keep the unwashed masses from getting all uppity and thinking they're actually allowed to elect a president." I noted you bringing up the "Electoral College" in another post further up in the thread, I believe. And, I tried not to comment at the time because if there are two concepts I find to be exceedingly egregious, and which I abhor, with every bone in my body, it's the Electoral College and Laissez Faire. I'll definitely have a stroke on those two. Well, it's 02:30 PST, and I must hit the sack for a couple of hours before having to "get up and do it again. Amen." Words courtesy of Jackson Browne.

Really Tosh? Post number 22 in this very thread was a dupe from you. Maybe you just don't want to fall out of touch with me. If that's the case then it's no problem. I have some ideas on topics we can cover. Unless an open discussion is too overt for you and you'd rather be a thread xxxxx. After all your work history indicates a strong preference for covert ops. ************************************************************************** "Unless an open discussion is too overt for you and you'd rather be a thread xxxxx. After all your work history indicates a strong preference for covert ops." You know, Myra. I was once like you were, and threw a rant at Bill over at Lancer about 2 years ago, before realizing how misplaced my anger actually was. There's no axe to grind here, really. It's too bad Hemming no longer frequents this site because IMO, he's more than likely the only one still alive and lucent enough to remember everything he was assigned to do, or commit, though he'll never cop to it. Why not spend your energy going after manipulators and facillitators higher up on the ladder of success, like Felix Rodriguez, or John Hull, and/or those higher profile Iran-Contra operatives, such as that lying sack of xxxx, Singlaub, for example, who bald-face lied his way through those televised hearings, along with that son-of-a-bitch gofer of his, Ollie North. I believe "covert ops" circa the 70's and 80's were more geared up to drug-running and arms trafficking. I also believe, and I speculate here, that assassinations of heads-of-state were, and are, carried out under the auspices of the "Felix Rodriguez" caliber of covert officer. I could be dead wrong, but IMO, the taking out of high profile officials seems to warrant the expertise of a higher ranking officer. But, again, I speculate here. I just don't think Bill is the trained, cold-blooded killer you would like to make him out to be. But, that's just MHO.

********************************************************************* "But the Dulles brothers seem more embedded than all of the above. Like the CIA was really the tool they used to take care of business. All that awkward stuff with the nazis." And, let's not leave out Prescott Bush, Milton Friedman, I.G. Farben, and their meeting in Friedrich Hayek's Swiss chalet circa 1933. This is from PBS' "Commanding The Heights." " "Just before his death, James Jesus Angleton, the legendary chief of counterintelligence at the Central Intelligence Agency, was a bitter man. He felt betrayed by the people he had worked for all his life. In the end, he had come to realize that they were never really interested in American ideals of "freedom" and "democracy." They really only wanted "absolute power." Angleton told author Joseph Trento that the reason he had gotten the counterintelligence job in the first place was by agreeing not to submit "sixty of Allen Dulles' closest friends" to a polygraph test concerning their business deals with the Nazis." J.J.A. never gave a rat's ass about American [misplaced, IMHO] ideals. He was just another imperialistic fascist, himself, following the same "Manifest Destiny" doctrine of our "founding fathers." Why do you think Americans appear as half-wits to the rest of the world? Because the whole basis for these American ideals of "freedom" and "democracy" were built and forged upon the backs of disenfranchised slaves, and the indiscriminant slaughter of the Native Americans who had been inhabiting and cultivating this continent centuries before the "white- eyes" with the "long-knives" ever set foot on these shores. Of course, you'll never read about the true basis for this country's independence in any schoolbook because that might cause students to really think about the true motives of its "founding fathers." No, it's much wiser for the citizens to believe in God, Mom, and apple pie, lest they view themselves with guilt and disdain for allowing themselves to be duped into buying that fairytale of the "White Knight in shining armour," riding up to save the day from all form and "color" of [noble] savage beast, not "white" enough to be considered "of the human race." "True. But I'm in the vicinity. What's below the rose--on the stem?" The "root ball". I have three rose bushes. Now, if you'll excuse me. I have to leave for work.

******************************************************************* "I'm all confused with the text colors." It's my way of citing that "point" of someone's dialogue to which I am choosing to "counterpoint," or reply. If you look closely, you'll notice I've also taken the liberty of placing quotation marks at the beginning and at the end of the "point" I've set in color. I've found that color makes it easier for most people to separate what one person is saying to the other, rather than for the text to be monochromatic in "black" and bound with . There seems to be less chance of the reader misinterpreting what one poster is replying to another poster, especially when there are multiple posters in one thread, or posters with the same first name. I also start with a line of asterisks, double-spaced between the post I am replying to and mine, as a means of separating the body of that post from mine. The utilization of color is something I picked up from another forum member, Robert Charles Dunne, as well as from our leader or moderator of this forum, John Simkin.

Overall I'm looking for information on the murder of President Kennedy because I think that his murder was the genesis of the bleak situation that exists in the US today. The start of the end. Recently I was trying to reconcile how someone could help fly a notorious assassin to the murder site while promoting a story that he was part of a team trying to stop the assassination. It doesn't appear that it can be reconciled. In general I'm much more interested in the planners than the shooters. But in the CIA I think we have both. Why do you say I have "more of a grasp of the truth than most of the people around here"? -- Mark "Lane describes Hunt v. Liberty Lobby, Hunt's suit against the Liberty Lobby Newspaper, The Spotlight, and Victor Marchetti, author of the article in question; Hunt won $650,000.00 in the suit, but on the newspaper's appeal, Lane represented The Spotlight, and was successful in overturning the lower court's ruling; in the process of that appeal, Lane won an unprecedented, unanimous verdict from the jury that the CIA had killed JFK... Jury forewoman, Leslie Armstrong, offered this assessment of the trial: "Mr. Lane was asking us to do something very difficult --he was asking us to believe that John Kennedy had been killed by our own government. Yet when we examined the evidence closely, we were compelled to conclude that the CIA had indeed killed President Kennedy... When the trial started I believed in the American way, mom and apple pie. Now I believe in mom and apple pie." http://www.blackopradio.com/inc_archives2006.html *************************************************************************** "Lane represented The Spotlight, and was successful in overturning the lower court's ruling; in the process of that appeal, Lane won an unprecedented, unanimous verdict from the jury that the CIA had killed JFK..." I'm very familiar with that trial, having been a subscriber of The Spotlight for many years. That's where I found Prouty's books in their Noontide Press catalogue. "Mr. Lane was asking us to do something very difficult --he was asking us to believe that John Kennedy had been killed by our own government. Yet when we examined the evidence closely, we were compelled to conclude that the CIA had indeed killed President Kennedy..." And, I would venture to take that a step further and follow the cobblestone road leading to Wall Street. IMO, there was a definite concerted effort on the part of the banking cartels, financial houses, and brokerage firms, etc. aka The Eastern Establishment, without which BTW, the seemingly endless source of collateral needed to keep the lid on this case for all these years, would have been possible. Remember, the Dulles brothers hailed from the Wall Street corporate law offices of Sullivan and Cromwell. "Why do you say I have "more of a grasp of the truth than most of the people around here"?" Because, I've been around the block more times than I care to remember, and you don't come across as some tender young bud on the rose bush, nor as some shrinking violet, either.

And as far as someone being unable or unwilling to understand... I find it kind of amazing that some people seem unable or unwilling to understand... -That this guy worked for the CIA--an agency that had two functions: murder and propaganda. -That he transported known assassins around the world on a regular basis. -That he transported known assassin John Roselli from Tampa (the site of an unsuccessful attempt to murder President Kennedy) to Dallas (the murder site of President Kennedy). -That the claim he was flying a notorious mobster and assassin somewhere to abort an assassination is utterly incredible. -That he sure seems to have President Kennedy's blood on his hands. And I admit that I'm unable or unwilling to understand... How or why this guy would be treated like some special guest star because he likes to talk about his front row seat to President Kennedy's assassination, which he was an accessory to. Myra "John "Handsome Johnny" Roselli (sometimes spelled Rosselli) (July 4, 1905 - August 9, 1976) was an influential Mafia soldier, one who had helped to control Hollywood and Las Vegas for the Chicago Mafia and who had allegedly been involved with the CIA plot to kill Cuban dictator Fidel Castro in the early 1960s and John Fitzgerald Kennedy's assassination in 1963. ... Many believe Roselli had been ordered killed by Tampa, Florida mob boss Santos Trafficante because Trafficante had believed the aging Roselli had talked too much about the Kennedy assassination and Castro murder plots during his Senate testimony, violating the strict Mafia code of omerta (silence.) James Files has claimed, in detail, how he, Roselli and Charles Nicoletti fired the fatal shots killing President John F. Kennedy at Dallas’ Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963. Bill Bonnano also states in his autobiography that while he was imprisoned with Roselli he spoke to him about the Kennedy assassination. Roselli claimed that hehad fired a shot from a stormdrain located on Elm Street." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Roselli ************************************************************************** "James Files has claimed, in detail, how he, Roselli and Charles Nicoletti fired the fatal shots killing President John F. Kennedy at Dallas’ Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963." Bingo! "Bill Bonnano also states in his autobiography that while he was imprisoned with Roselli he spoke to him about the Kennedy assassination. Roselli claimed that hehad fired a shot from a stormdrain located on Elm Street." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Roselli" Are you aware of the fact that Wikipedia is merely made up of anyone with the ability to plug in a search engine, copy and paste information from sources that may be less than reliable, or misinformative due to the fact that these unlicensed personnel have been granted the opportunity to create history as they deem fit, sans any oversight committee to ensure its viability. Wikipedia is not of the same caliber as an encyclopedia, as their name might imply. I just found this out last Sunday. "Roselli claimed that he had fired a shot from a stormdrain located on Elm Street." This has been debated ad nauseum, and proven to be next to impossible taking into consideration the angle required to get off a direct hit. Maybe if the desired effect would be to blow out a tire, or puncture the oil pan. I'm not aware of any exotic form of periscopic rifle employed that day. **************************************************************************** "Well I've been told I can't handle the truth. So in theory I shouldn't have a problem with that statement." Is that right? I think you've got more of a grasp of the truth than most of the people around here. Just what are you looking for aside from attempting to extract public confessions out of people you perceive to be THE murderers of JFK?

Not to put words in someone else's mouth... But I interpret this in the following way: Mr. Plumlee's team was dejected because they had failed their mission to protect the president, a leader whom they favored. Had some members of Mr. Plumlee's team been actively involved *in* the assassination, those members might have shown excitement rather than dejection. Because they left dejected, Mr. Plumlee concluded that none of his team had participated as successful shooter(s). Does this phrasing ring true? Thanks Frank. That says what I meant and rings true. Why could'nt I have said it that way... Myra. Does that help? Sorry if I confused anyone, but Frank did sum it up for me in a way I can live with.. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, yes yes yes. I see. I read it a totally different way. Thank you Frank and Tosh for helping me see the light. I hope you can understand now what I was perplexed about Tosh. Hm, I wonder if other people have read quote #1 and now think your passengers were bloodthirty. Your statement was really precise, so I believe I'm clear that the flights to Dallas and from Dallas (I know there were multiple stops en route) had some different passengers, right? And John Roselli was not on the return flight. So...speaking of Roselli, the traditional wisdom is that he was one of the assassins. Does it puzzle you at all that he was on the abort flight into Dallas then? I know you were on the South size of Dealey Plaza and more people were on the North side. But did you happen to see any of the below? -Joseph Milteer -Ted Shackley -David Morales -Gerald Patrick Hemming -Ed Lansdale -Lucien Conein -Alfredo Duran -Rip Robertson -John Adrian O'Hare -Orlando Bosch (seems like he would have been directly opposite you) -Ray Hargraves (ditto) Or maybe we can come at this a different way: was there anyone in the crowd who did *not* work for the company? I hope you don't mind all the questions. I'm just trying to piece things together as so many here are. If you can't answer some then I understand. Thanks. Myra Ref: http://www.google.com/search?q=familiar+fa...:en-US:official http://www.manuscriptservice.com/FFiDP-2/ ******************************************************************* "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, yes yes yes. I see. I read it a totally different way. Thank you Frank and Tosh for helping me see the light. I hope you can understand now what I was perplexed about Tosh. Hm, I wonder if other people have read quote #1 and now think your passengers were bloodthirty. Your statement was really precise, so I believe I'm clear that the flights to Dallas and from Dallas (I know there were multiple stops en route) had some different passengers, right? And John Roselli was not on the return flight. So...speaking of Roselli, the traditional wisdom is that he was one of the assassins. Does it puzzle you at all that he was on the abort flight into Dallas then? I know you were on the South size of Dealey Plaza and more people were on the North side. But did you happen to see any of the below? -Joseph Milteer -Ted Shackley -David Morales -Gerald Patrick Hemming -Ed Lansdale -Lucien Conein -Alfredo Duran -Rip Robertson -John Adrian O'Hare -Orlando Bosch (seems like he would have been directly opposite you) -Ray Hargraves (ditto) Or maybe we can come at this a different way: was there anyone in the crowd who did *not* work for the company? I hope you don't mind all the questions. I'm just trying to piece things together as so many here are. If you can't answer some then I understand. Thanks. Myra" Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... Sounds like a lawyer badgering a witness, to me. __________________________________________ Terry, I agree. Or someone who is either unable or unwilling to understand... --Thomas __________________________________________ ********************************************************************* "Terry, I agree. Or someone who is either unable or unwilling to understand... --Thomas" Nah, more like someone attempting to come off as a newbie, "I've only been at this for a year or so." You know the routine. More like a wolf in sheep's clothing. Been there, done that.

Not to put words in someone else's mouth... But I interpret this in the following way: Mr. Plumlee's team was dejected because they had failed their mission to protect the president, a leader whom they favored. Had some members of Mr. Plumlee's team been actively involved *in* the assassination, those members might have shown excitement rather than dejection. Because they left dejected, Mr. Plumlee concluded that none of his team had participated as successful shooter(s). Does this phrasing ring true? Thanks Frank. That says what I meant and rings true. Why could'nt I have said it that way... Myra. Does that help? Sorry if I confused anyone, but Frank did sum it up for me in a way I can live with.. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, yes yes yes. I see. I read it a totally different way. Thank you Frank and Tosh for helping me see the light. I hope you can understand now what I was perplexed about Tosh. Hm, I wonder if other people have read quote #1 and now think your passengers were bloodthirty. Your statement was really precise, so I believe I'm clear that the flights to Dallas and from Dallas (I know there were multiple stops en route) had some different passengers, right? And John Roselli was not on the return flight. So...speaking of Roselli, the traditional wisdom is that he was one of the assassins. Does it puzzle you at all that he was on the abort flight into Dallas then? I know you were on the South size of Dealey Plaza and more people were on the North side. But did you happen to see any of the below? -Joseph Milteer -Ted Shackley -David Morales -Gerald Patrick Hemming -Ed Lansdale -Lucien Conein -Alfredo Duran -Rip Robertson -John Adrian O'Hare -Orlando Bosch (seems like he would have been directly opposite you) -Ray Hargraves (ditto) Or maybe we can come at this a different way: was there anyone in the crowd who did *not* work for the company? I hope you don't mind all the questions. I'm just trying to piece things together as so many here are. If you can't answer some then I understand. Thanks. Myra Ref: http://www.google.com/search?q=familiar+fa...:en-US:official http://www.manuscriptservice.com/FFiDP-2/ ******************************************************************* "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, yes yes yes. I see. I read it a totally different way. Thank you Frank and Tosh for helping me see the light. I hope you can understand now what I was perplexed about Tosh. Hm, I wonder if other people have read quote #1 and now think your passengers were bloodthirty. Your statement was really precise, so I believe I'm clear that the flights to Dallas and from Dallas (I know there were multiple stops en route) had some different passengers, right? And John Roselli was not on the return flight. So...speaking of Roselli, the traditional wisdom is that he was one of the assassins. Does it puzzle you at all that he was on the abort flight into Dallas then? I know you were on the South size of Dealey Plaza and more people were on the North side. But did you happen to see any of the below? -Joseph Milteer -Ted Shackley -David Morales -Gerald Patrick Hemming -Ed Lansdale -Lucien Conein -Alfredo Duran -Rip Robertson -John Adrian O'Hare -Orlando Bosch (seems like he would have been directly opposite you) -Ray Hargraves (ditto) Or maybe we can come at this a different way: was there anyone in the crowd who did *not* work for the company? I hope you don't mind all the questions. I'm just trying to piece things together as so many here are. If you can't answer some then I understand. Thanks. Myra" Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... Sounds like a lawyer badgering a witness, to me.

***************************************************************** A link to Che and Tania. http://chehasta.narod.ru/taniatamara.htm

The man we are interested in is John Floyd Hull. We know he was connected to others in the 1980s who were involved in the assassination of JFK in 1963: Ted Shackley, Rafael Quintero, Carl E. Jenkins and Felipe Vidal. This is what Tony Avirgan and Martha Honey (La Penca: On Trial in Costa Rica, 1987) have to say about John Floyd Hull: On May 22 and 23, 1985. John Hull, a North American farmer with extensive land holdings in northern Costa Rica. brought us to trial in the First Penal Court of San Jose. Costa Rica. It was a most unusual and important trial: it pitted American citizens against each other, raised fundamental issues of the freedom of the press, and publicly revealed evidence of criminal activities and plots by, the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the U.S. backed Nicaraguan contras operating out of Costa Rica. John Hull charged us with Injuries. Falsehold and Defamation of Character because of what we had written about him in our report on the La Penca press conference bombing. In file suit John Hull demanded 25 million colones (almost $500,000) in damagcs, a published retraction of what we had written, and court costs which he estimated to be another 25 million colones. In addition, he asked that the court prevent us from leaving Costa Rica and place under embargo our car, house and other valuables. John Hull had filed the suit in October 1985. just days after we had presented, at a San Jose press conference, our report on who was responsible for the May 30, 1984 bombing which killed three journalists and five guerrillas and wounded dozens of uthcrs including contra leader Eden Pastora. Tony was among the journalists injured and we had been asked to undertake an investigation and prepare a report for three U.S. based press organizations the Committee to Protect Journalists, the Newspaper Guild and the World Press Freedom Committee. Libel cases involving the press are, in Costa Rica, heard before the Supreme Court composed of three judges. However Hull chose to sue us not as journalists, but as private individuals which meant that the case was heard before a single judge in a lower court. We believe this was a deliberate tactic since it is easier to apply pressure and influence a single judge rather than the Supreme Court. In the days before the trial Hull confidently boasted that he had the judge "in his pocket" and that it was predetermined he would win the case. In fact, the judge, Jorge Chacon Laurito, turned out to be scrupulously honest and even handed. In addition, we believe that Hull chose to sue us as individuals in an effort to break us financially and discredit us as journalists. We were forced to personally bear the costs of our defense and would have been compelled to pay ourselves any damages had we lost the case. He attempted to belittle us professionally by implying that we had written the report and defamed him as individuals, not as journalists. We, in turn, believed that the case should rightfully have been before the Supreme Court since we had written our report in our capacity as journalists. The report had been commissioned by three journalist organizations, had been presented to a press conference, and was subsequently published, in Spanish, as a book. In our report we described many details of what we had learned about John Hull's activities as a CIA agent and liaison to the contras. In bringing the case against us, Hull denied four of the things we had said about him: 1) that he works for the CIA and receives money from the U.S. National Security Council; 2) that he was instrumental in integrating, as military trainers, a group of Miami Cubans into contra leader Eden Pastora's ranks; 3) that he was involved in the La Penca bombing and a subsequent plot to kill Pastora; and 4) that he had been under investigation in connection with drug trafficking operations. In our report we also stated that Hull was involved in a 1985 plot to bomb the U.S. Embassy and kill the U.S. Ambassador to Costa Rica and blame these actions on the Sandinistas, thereby providing a rationale for direct U.S. intervention against Nicaragua. But, curiously, Hull chose not to challenge us on this point. John: Perhaps I should have been more clear. BOTH men had the name John Floyd Hull and the other was noted as John F Hull. It was said both were from the "Mid-Western, States of the United States". I found that strange that they would be two different people. ****************************************************************** "Keep in mind that I do know that an operative on a government sanctioned or approved operation NEVER uses his real name while engaged in that operation. Also note if the operative is recorded in an official document, into-memo or an FBI 62 file, or CIA dispatches, the name is coded with numbers; exp CI-XXXXX, and the name of the agency. CIA, AM-LASH, AM BLOOD, OPERATION TIDE, operative Blocker, Pearson, Ram; operators within TIDE. as examples. If an informate gives his real name as being the operative or as being exposed to a government sanction operation at the time of the operation, you know he is a "plant" or a BS'er. Sometime an operative will be assigned two or three operative names for many different operations at the same time. Sometimes real names of real people are used to futher confuse investigations. I hope this helps." "BOTH men had the name John Floyd Hull and the other was noted as John F Hull. It was said both were from the "Mid-Western, States of the United States". I found that strange that they would be two different people." Then, are you saying that the name or names, John F. Hull or John Floyd Hull could be a pseudonym, or the real name of someone that's being used to confuse the investigation? Or that Hull, himself, or his name is being used in the capacity of an asset, instead of in the capacity of a operative? Or, would the use of his real name, by himself somehow be meant as a way to exculpate him from his role as an agent for The Company, since you've stated, "that an operative on a government sanctioned or approved operation NEVER uses his real name while engaged in that operation."? Thanks, Ter Ter; Perhaps all of the above. Their names could have been cut outs or perhaps referenced at times as "Jack and Jill". In my case I knew of two persons in CR as John F and Floyd Hull. Were these two the same people or different? I do not or did not know. The picture posted is the Hull who owned the Ranch near the river (can't remember the rivers name) not far from the northern border. The other Hull I was told owned a coffee plantation to the south. However, we did make air drops in the north and also in the south. I know its confusing..... if you think thats bad you should of been there... it was a mess.... here a contra..., there a contra.., everwhere a contra and behind every contra was a CIA officer trying to find a contra. ************************************************************* I hear ya! Thanks for cluing me in. The CIA are, without a doubt, master practioners in the art of deception. They maintain their power by playing dirty. Or, maybe we just deserve to be ridden roughshod over, and taken for the peasant rubes they make us out to be. After all, people like Hull, Hunt, Liddy, et. al., cut their teeth and got their merit badges and/or bonafides from those hallowed halls and ivy walls of Yale, Harvard, Georgetown, Wharton, Case Western Reserve, Chicago, etc. Places, us mere mortals sometimes only read about, let alone ever set foot in. How do you fight City Hall? Especially when they have seemingly unlimited reserves of disposable income with which to corner every market and media outlet to their favor. They sure have it made, don't they? And, us? We always come up with the short end of the stick, don't we? Why is that? Because we weren't born stinking rich, that's why. You know how it goes. Money talks, bullxxxx walks. Hey Tosh, can I call you, Bill?

The man we are interested in is John Floyd Hull. We know he was connected to others in the 1980s who were involved in the assassination of JFK in 1963: Ted Shackley, Rafael Quintero, Carl E. Jenkins and Felipe Vidal. This is what Tony Avirgan and Martha Honey (La Penca: On Trial in Costa Rica, 1987) have to say about John Floyd Hull: On May 22 and 23, 1985. John Hull, a North American farmer with extensive land holdings in northern Costa Rica. brought us to trial in the First Penal Court of San Jose. Costa Rica. It was a most unusual and important trial: it pitted American citizens against each other, raised fundamental issues of the freedom of the press, and publicly revealed evidence of criminal activities and plots by, the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the U.S. backed Nicaraguan contras operating out of Costa Rica. John Hull charged us with Injuries. Falsehold and Defamation of Character because of what we had written about him in our report on the La Penca press conference bombing. In file suit John Hull demanded 25 million colones (almost $500,000) in damagcs, a published retraction of what we had written, and court costs which he estimated to be another 25 million colones. In addition, he asked that the court prevent us from leaving Costa Rica and place under embargo our car, house and other valuables. John Hull had filed the suit in October 1985. just days after we had presented, at a San Jose press conference, our report on who was responsible for the May 30, 1984 bombing which killed three journalists and five guerrillas and wounded dozens of uthcrs including contra leader Eden Pastora. Tony was among the journalists injured and we had been asked to undertake an investigation and prepare a report for three U.S. based press organizations the Committee to Protect Journalists, the Newspaper Guild and the World Press Freedom Committee. Libel cases involving the press are, in Costa Rica, heard before the Supreme Court composed of three judges. However Hull chose to sue us not as journalists, but as private individuals which meant that the case was heard before a single judge in a lower court. We believe this was a deliberate tactic since it is easier to apply pressure and influence a single judge rather than the Supreme Court. In the days before the trial Hull confidently boasted that he had the judge "in his pocket" and that it was predetermined he would win the case. In fact, the judge, Jorge Chacon Laurito, turned out to be scrupulously honest and even handed. In addition, we believe that Hull chose to sue us as individuals in an effort to break us financially and discredit us as journalists. We were forced to personally bear the costs of our defense and would have been compelled to pay ourselves any damages had we lost the case. He attempted to belittle us professionally by implying that we had written the report and defamed him as individuals, not as journalists. We, in turn, believed that the case should rightfully have been before the Supreme Court since we had written our report in our capacity as journalists. The report had been commissioned by three journalist organizations, had been presented to a press conference, and was subsequently published, in Spanish, as a book. In our report we described many details of what we had learned about John Hull's activities as a CIA agent and liaison to the contras. In bringing the case against us, Hull denied four of the things we had said about him: 1) that he works for the CIA and receives money from the U.S. National Security Council; 2) that he was instrumental in integrating, as military trainers, a group of Miami Cubans into contra leader Eden Pastora's ranks; 3) that he was involved in the La Penca bombing and a subsequent plot to kill Pastora; and 4) that he had been under investigation in connection with drug trafficking operations. In our report we also stated that Hull was involved in a 1985 plot to bomb the U.S. Embassy and kill the U.S. Ambassador to Costa Rica and blame these actions on the Sandinistas, thereby providing a rationale for direct U.S. intervention against Nicaragua. But, curiously, Hull chose not to challenge us on this point. John: Perhaps I should have been more clear. BOTH men had the name John Floyd Hull and the other was noted as John F Hull. It was said both were from the "Mid-Western, States of the United States". I found that strange that they would be two different people. ****************************************************************** "Keep in mind that I do know that an operative on a government sanctioned or approved operation NEVER uses his real name while engaged in that operation. Also note if the operative is recorded in an official document, into-memo or an FBI 62 file, or CIA dispatches, the name is coded with numbers; exp CI-XXXXX, and the name of the agency. CIA, AM-LASH, AM BLOOD, OPERATION TIDE, operative Blocker, Pearson, Ram; operators within TIDE. as examples. If an informate gives his real name as being the operative or as being exposed to a government sanction operation at the time of the operation, you know he is a "plant" or a BS'er. Sometime an operative will be assigned two or three operative names for many different operations at the same time. Sometimes real names of real people are used to futher confuse investigations. I hope this helps." "BOTH men had the name John Floyd Hull and the other was noted as John F Hull. It was said both were from the "Mid-Western, States of the United States". I found that strange that they would be two different people." Then, are you saying that the name or names, John F. Hull or John Floyd Hull could be a pseudonym, or the real name of someone that's being used to confuse the investigation? Or that Hull, himself, or his name is being used in the capacity of an asset, instead of in the capacity of a operative? Or, would the use of his real name, by himself somehow be meant as a way to exculpate him from his role as an agent for The Company, since you've stated, "that an operative on a government sanctioned or approved operation NEVER uses his real name while engaged in that operation."? Thanks, Ter

I am very interested in John Floyd Hull's relationship with George Bush and Ted Shackley. Robert Owen seems to be a key figure in this and definitely needs researching in more detail. It would be important if we can link Shackley to Hull in the early 1960s. John: I am not sure I can help on this-- BUT? At the time I was in Washington DC John Hull's name was associated with an inter FBI memo request for information on one John Hull. I was shown this memo and asked to comment on it, or if I knew this person and his associates. I could not help much because the information asked was about activities in the time frame of 1963 and I did not know this person. The memo stated that Hull was believed to be associated with persons attatched to "military style" activities of a civilian nature. I do not have a copy of that document because I think it is still classified. At this point "I speculate". I was under the impression at the time that this John Hull was associated with gun running activites in the Louisanna area. That he had connections with Martino, Masferrger?spel), John Farentello, and Mayer Lanskey of Miami Beach. Years later when I made reference to this document and associated it with John Hull of Costa Rico, that I thought was the Hull of the sixties, I was told that the Hull in Costa Rico of the 80's was a different John Hull. The Hull of the 60', if I remember right, found in the FBI's memo, was associated with interest in Havana and persons who had fled Cuba in 1959-60. I am not sure if this helps. I have no way to document this. Its only my word and what I remember and a degree of speculations on my part. I have been told that there were two John Hulls. However, both can be found in classified files of the United States Government. I believe Senator John Kerry can shed light on this matter if he would. As I have said. I can not prove the above information as fact and perhaps should be considered speculation only, but I feel it should be looked into. It is in my memory from that time span of the sixties and the 90's. *********************************************************************** "Years later when I made reference to this document and associated it with John Hull of Costa Rico, that I thought was the Hull of the sixties, I was told that the Hull in Costa Rico of the 80's was a different John Hull. The Hull of the 60', if I remember right, found in the FBI's memo, was associated with interest in Havana and persons who had fled Cuba in 1959-60. I am not sure if this helps. I have no way to document this. Its only my word and what I remember and a degree of speculations on my part. I have been told that there were two John Hulls. However, both can be found in classified files of the United States Government. I believe Senator John Kerry can shed light on this matter if he would." Seems like just another example of the dirty tricks campaign continually being perpetrated by "The Company" in order to freeze any trails that may have revealed connections between operations, i.e. multiple personalities using similar names, working similar territories, performing similar functions. Thus, affording them a modicum of Plausible Denial behind which they might cloak their liability. Of course, this is purely speculation on my part, as well. But, considering the history of abuses this agency so freely incorporates as it goes about its business practices, how far off course can we actually be?

**************************************************************** "A CIA agent and Veteran of the US invasion of Cuba at the Bay of Pigs, Felix Rodriguez, heard of Guevara's chapter and relayed the information to the CIA. He has said on multiple occasions that he was the one that shot Guevara. This is generally thought to be untrue. After the execution, Rodriguez took Che's Rolex watch, often proudly showing it to reporters during the ensuing years. Guevara died on October 9th. He was buried in an unmarked grave in the vicinity of the execution site after the CIA had removed his hands to send to different parts of the world to ensure his identity." I wish for Felix Rodriguez to die a slow, horrible death. Terry; If you would like a quick review on "Che", I will be more than glad to reduce down the pages of the research paper which I wrote on him a lifetime ago, and post them. Anything for someone who has survived the New Orleans arena! Tom **************************************************************** After viewing Spike Lee's documentary on Katrina, and having had survived Betsy in 1965 myself, I finally realized what those Sherman tanks rolling down Esplanade in the early morning hours, while the water was inching up the steps to the veranda, were really on their way to doing. Not going to shoot gators, which is what the guardsmen told us, but to blow up the levee, so the Quarter wouldn't flood. I still love that grand old dame, as does my whole family. We've had many wonderful times and memories there. Hopefully, one day she'll rise again, above it all. And Purv, please post what you have on Che. Better yet, send it to me: tmauro@pacbell.net Thanks, Ter LOUISIANA 1927 What has happened down here is the wind have changed Clouds roll in from the north and it started to rain Rained real hard and rained for a real long time Six feet of water in the streets of Evangeline The river rose all day The river rose all night Some people got lost in the flood Some people got away alright The river have busted through clear down to Plaquemines Six feet of water in the streets of Evangeline CHORUS Louisiana, Louisiana They're tyrin' to wash us away They're tryin' to wash us away Louisiana, Louisiana They're tryin' to wash us away They're tryin' to wash us away President Coolidge came down in a railroad train With a little fat man with a note-pad in his hand The President say, "Little fat man isn't it a shame what the river has done To this poor cracker's land." CHORUS Louisiana, Louisiana They're tyrin' to wash us away They're tryin' to wash us away Louisiana, Louisiana They're tryin' to wash us away They're tryin' to wash us away Words and music by Randy Newman

*************************************************************** Dixie Dea posted the link, here on The Education Forum, back on January 20, 2004, in Reply # 69 of thread # 29263 titled Re: No Name Key mercenaries linked to the JFK assassination http://www.williambowles.info/ini/hull-chron.html CHRONOLOGY OF JOHN HULL'S ALLEGED CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES June 7, 1991 1982-1986 John Hull's ranch in Northern Costa Rica serves as the main supply base for the contras on the Southern Front of Nicaragua. [Newsday, 5/10/87] October 1984 Hull receives $10,000 a month from the Reagan-Bush Administration's National Security Council… September 1984 and deposits the money into a Miami bank account. [senate Foreign Relations subcommittee report, "Private Assistance' and the Contras: A Staff Report." 10/14/86] [Common Cause, Sept/Oct. 1985] [Covert Action Bulletin, Winter 86] [New York Daily News, 1/8/87] 1984 Hull takes out a $375,000 loan from the Overseas Private Investment Corporation for a supposed manufacturing project. Hull deposits the money into his private account in Indiana and the project is never started. He later defaults on the loan. [senate Foreign Relations narcotics and terrorism subcommittee: ``Drugs, Law Enforcement, and Foreign Policy,'' a report on investigation of contra drug trafficking, April 1989] April 9, 1984 Plane piloted by a Nicaraguan crashes while taking off from the airstrip on Hull's ranch, purportedly because it was overloaded with military supplies. [Tico Times, 9/28/84] April 25, 1984 Hull's ranch is raided and he is detained by security officers investigating allegations of Southern Front contra activities in Costa Rica. [Tico Times 4/27/84] April 1984 Pastora is given a 30-day deadline to unify his forces with the F.D.N. in the North. [Out of Control, Leslie Cockburn] May 30, 1984 A bomb explodes in La Penca, Nicaragua, killing three journalists--including U.S. citizen Linda Frazier--and injuring many others. The bomb's apparent target, moderate contra leader Eden Pastora, is injured but survives. One of the reporters wounded in the bombing is ABC cameraman Tony Avirgan. [Convergence, Spring 1987] May 30, 1984 Hull, Robert Owen, C.I.A. station chief Phil Holtz and several pilots meet in a C.I.A. safe house in San Jose, Costa Rica. After news of the explosion, Hull phones his associates to instruct that his private plane not be used to help the wounded. [Costa Rican Special Prosecutor's Report, Dec. 1989] June 22, 1984 Hull obtains Costa Rican citizenship, which he later claims was at the C.I.A.'s request. [Tico Times, 3/23/90] October 1984 Costa Rican Government initiates investigation of Hull after he admits on radio that he aided the contras. [Tico Times, 10/26/84] December 1984 According to mercenary Jack Terrell, Hull, Robert Owen, Felipe Vidal and the alleged bomber Amac Galil meet and discuss the continuing need to kill Pastora. [New York Times, 3/1/90] July 18, 1985 David, an eyewitness source for Avirgan and Honey's La Penca investigation, is kidnapped and later allegedly murdered on Hull's ranch. [Convergence Magazine, Spring 1988] October 1985 At a San Jose, Costa Rica press conference, Tony Avirgan (who was injured in the bombing) and Martha Honey present the findings from their investigation of the La Penca bombing, identifying Hull as one of the bombing's planners. [La Penca: Report of an Investigation, Tony Avirgan and Martha Honey , 1985] Days after Avirgan and Honey's report is published, Hull files suit against the journalists, charging them with ``injuries, falsehood and defamation of character'' because of their allegations of his role in the bombing [La Penca: On Trial in Costa Rica, Edited by Avirgan and Honey, 1987] April 1986 A CBS "West 57th Street" broadcast airs, in which former contra resupply pilots identify Hull's ranch as major transhipment point for military supplies and drugs, but Hull denies any role in the contra resupply network. May 22-23, 1986 Trial against Avirgan and Honey takes place, resulting in a victory for the two journalists after documents and witnesses confirm their findings. The judge throws Hull's lawsuit out of court. [La Penca: On Trial in Costa Rica, edited by Avirgan and Honey, 1987] May 1986 Christic Institute attorneys file the La Penca lawsuit (Avirgan v. Hull) on behalf of Avirgan and Honey, naming Hull and 28 others as major figures in a racketeering network involved in drug trafficking, arms smuggling. The same ring engineered the La Penca bombing, the suit alleges. [Convergence, Spring 1987] May 5, 1988 Costa Rican police announce an investigation into charges of Hull's involvement in arms and drug trafficking. May 1988 Christic Institute takes Hull's deposition for the La Penca lawsuit. He refuses to cooperate in the proceedings. June 1988 Federal Judge James L. King dismisses La Penca lawsuit in Miami two days before the trial is scheduled to begin, arguing that there is no evidence linking Hull and others to the bombing. The Christic Institute immediately announces it will appeal. January 1989 Costa Rican authorities arrest Hull on charges of drug trafficking and using Costa Rican territory for ``hostile acts'' against NIcaragua. [Tico Times, 3/23/90] April 1989 Sen. John Kerry's Foreign Relations narcotics and terrorism subcommittee releases a 1,200-page report, ``Drugs, Law Enforcement, and Foreign Policy,'' including testimony that Hull's ranch was used for gun- and drug-smuggling operations. One eyewitness tell the subcommittee that Hull supervised the transfer of drugs into a plane before its return journey to the United States. May 26, 1989 John Hull fails to appear to testify before the Costa Rican Legislative Assembly's Special Commission Investigating Narcotics. Hull later appears before the commission but refuses to be sworn in to testify. July 1989 Costa Rican Legislative Assembly concludes in an official report that Hull was trafficking drugs through the country on behalf of the contras. [The Guardian, 8/30/89] July 1989 Hull flees Costa Rica while waiting trial, jumping a $37,000 bail posted by friends. Several reports confirm that D.E.A. agent Juan Perez arranged his secret flight out of the country. [Convergence, Winter 1991] [Tico Times, 12/7/90] September 1989 Based on the Costa Rican Legislative Assembly report on drug trafficking, Oliver North, Richard Secord, former U.S. Ambassador Lewis Tambs and former National Security Adviser John Poindexter are all declared personae non gratae and banned from Costa Rica by the country's government. Secord is a defendant in Avirgan v. Hull. [The Guardian, 8/30/89] March 1990 Hull is indicted for murder in Costa Rica on charges that he masterminded the La Penca bombing. [Convergence, Spring 1990] May 1990 ABC Primetime Live airs Diane Sawyer's interview with Carlos Lehder, a key figure in the Medellin cocaine cartel. Lehder names Hull as a major cocaine trafficker and says Hull smuggled 30 tons of cocaine into the United States yearly. June 1990 Hull's name added to Interpol's "most wanted" list of international fugitives at the request of Costa Rican special prosecutor Jorge Chaverria. [Convergence, Fall 1990] November 1990 Costa Rican Legislative Assembly establishes four-member La Penca investigative committee with representatives from all political parties. November 1990 Hull slips into Nicaragua on a 72-hour visa and soon disappears. [Los Angeles Times 12/7/90] [uPI 12/11/90] December 1990 Investigators track Hull to a remote town in Southern Nicaragua--Juigalpa--which is the seat of an extreme right-wing movement against the conservative government of Violetta Chamorro. Hull is reported to be looking into investments to help contra veterans. [Tico Times, 12/7/90] December 7, 1990 Costa Rica officially asks Nicaragua to extradite Hull. December 11, 1990 Nicaraguan Supreme Court orders the arrest of Hull, although Presidential Minister Antonio Lacayo denies any knowledge of the case and says Hull was not facing criminal charges in Nicaragua. [uPI 12/12/90] Hull quietly leaves Nicaragua and returns to the United States. April 19, 1991 The Costa Rican Ambassador submits a formal request to the U.S. State Department to extradite Hull. ________________________________________ John Hull - another bastard who should rot in hell.

************************************************************** That's why they call it "character assassination," Dawnie.

Skanks with too much time on their hands........and they are jealous! Hey look! It's Jack's personal sock puppet! sock puppet? that term got started on alt.vietnam.war USNET group about 12 years ago Gee, I'm impressed. Did they copyright it or something? What would you know about Vietnam other than being fragged? ************************************************************* "What would you know about Vietnam other than being fragged?" And, what would you know of your ass from a hole in the ground, dickhead?

**************************************************************** "A CIA agent and Veteran of the US invasion of Cuba at the Bay of Pigs, Felix Rodriguez, heard of Guevara's chapter and relayed the information to the CIA. He has said on multiple occasions that he was the one that shot Guevara. This is generally thought to be untrue. After the execution, Rodriguez took Che's Rolex watch, often proudly showing it to reporters during the ensuing years. Guevara died on October 9th. He was buried in an unmarked grave in the vicinity of the execution site after the CIA had removed his hands to send to different parts of the world to ensure his identity." I wish for Felix Rodriguez to die a slow, horrible death.

Well, you hate this country too, Jack, so you and Fetz can spoon to your heart's content. Accusing the Prez of murdering 3,000 innocent people is indicative of "calm class"? And you think this reflects well on the Marine Corps? What is his idea of "experts"? Those pimple-popping twits from Loose Change? Hilarious. Thankfully, I know an asshole when I see one (or read their posts). Just remember folks: you won't read any of Fetz's shocking revelations in the Bush-hating NY Times or Nation magazine because they're influenced by the evil gum'mint! LOL. ************************************************************ "Thankfully, I know an asshole when I see one (or read their posts)." Well, apparently you haven't taken a good look at yourself in the mirror lately have you, Clyde?