Terry Mauro

************************************************** "Larry Flint's offer still stands. Solve the JFK assassination and he will pay you $1,000,000 . As for me,yes I wish there was a conspiracy. There is no forensic evidence to prove otherwise! Prove me wrong." And, look what happened to Flynt. You could've at least gotten the spelling of his name right. He became a paraplegic for making that offer. Shot at, and paralyzed from the waist down. And, don't try and hand me any of your hairbrained explanations on that one because I've got it on firsthand authority, you fool.

Ohhhhhhhh. See, I'm not real fast, but the good news is that when I get it, I really get. So: got it! And that aligns totally with something Gary Mack just sent me, saying that my "Badge Man" location image of the head shot was way off; that the retaining wall you're talking about would not be in the way (if a person was standing on something behind the picket fence). I think I may know now where such a glitch might have entered, when I resized the entire model, but had to resize the pergolas separately. I just noticed that they might not be correctly set "into" the terrain, making them slightly elevated. I can't go re-tooling all that at the moment, but plan to this weekend, and will get some new images generated when I do. As an aside, I just got the good news that I'm going to have a limosine modeled from the HSCA schematic sent to me probably sometime this weekend to use in the model, and by next week it looks like I'm also going to have some articulated 3D people to put in for JFK and Jacquie, so will be able to get them into correct positions, and even animate things to a degree. Any and all of these (and the other stuff you mentioned) I'll be happy to put in the model if I can get locations described as closely as possible. I don't see it as "the actions of lemmings" either (although I found John Dolva's information of interest), and of course everyone in Dealey Plaza didn't suddenly and mechanically bolt into the railroad yard/TSBD lot. I do very much, though, believe that there was planned misdirection there, and I believe that Decker's immediate announcement was entirely scripted. As you say: I entirely agree. And I believe that includes the red herrings and misdirection: they weren't second rate, either. My current opinion, subject to change, is that the Zapruder film and the Nix film—whatever their individual flaws and shortcomings in current versions—capture the dread moment in cruciform concordance, and in ways that could not possibly have been faked. In fact, I believe that is at least one reason why the Z film was withheld so long. It certainly was long enough to generate a tidal wave of anecdotal testimony—itself in conflict—creating so much tangled bramble and brush of contention and disunity that it only could guarantee a firestorm of controversy and contradictions around the film itself the moment it became available to ignite it. And it did. It is a conflagration raging out of control on this forum at this moment. And I will continue unabated—as long as they don't turn the forum into a popularity contest. I couldn't agree more, Bernice, which is why I'm completely amenable to putting in anything anyone requests, and viewing the scene from any viewpoint anyone requests. And I only hope this work will help all be able to look in ways never possible before. For me, it already has. Count on it. Ashton *************************************************** "And I will continue unabated—as long as they don't turn the forum into a popularity contest." And, you can bet your sweet bippy, there ain't no congeniality awards to be given out here, either. We all reserve the right to "agree to disagree." That's the only way we've been able to sift through the mounds of info allotted to us, mis and dis, as well as whatever else could be considered as correct. Why do you think it's been taking us so damned long? As Bernie said, though. "Carry on." Your fellow student in research, "Ditto"

Thanks for waiting Ashton. What I saw at that link is the Zapruder film, which I don't trust at all because I'm convinced it's altered. See the current Zapruder thread for details. What's right before our eyes is, in my view, an altered film that is not credible evidence. You demand that someone see things with their own eyes to consider it valid (tho' few of us, if any, were in Dealey Plaza that day). Yet when someone has seen something with their own eyes, you dismiss it as you did Craig Roberts' input. What's left Ashton? ***************************************************** "What's right before our eyes is, in my view, an altered film that is not credible evidence." "You demand that someone see things with their own eyes to consider it valid (though few of us, if any, were in Dealey Plaza that day). Yet when someone has seen something with their own eyes, you dismiss it as you did Craig Roberts' input. What's left Ashton?" Ditto.

Thank you. I rest my case. You've argued it about as persuasively as it could be argued. I'm entirely convinced: the purported positions for "Black Dog Man," "Badge Man" (plus spotter), and "Hat Man" are utterly absurd as shooting positions. Hordes of people, including policemen, flooded into the area in seconds from all directions. The entire area at issue was lousy with cops for two hours before, and not one witness in forty years has ever once suggested that even one of them carried a rifle, or that any person, in any mode of dress or garb, was ever seen in the area at issue with a rifle at any time. The entire area was searched carefully for empty shell casings immediately after the shooting and none were found. Not a single verifiable scrap of evidence of any shooters in those locations was found then, and not a single scrap of verifiable evidence has been found to this day. When are you going to make your case, though? Oh: maybe that was that question you had for me in the above, the one I've answered about ten times now, but you can't seem to get somehow. Let's do some remedial back-trackig. Go ahead—ask it again: Cliff? Have you been paying any attention at all? Can I get you to focus real hard for a sec? I mean, this is only the central and crucial point I have made repeatedly in this thread and others. And, Cliff: this ain't some theetie-weetie, airy-fairy theory, or bizarre clumps of shadow and light pulled out of grainy photos and colorized to look sort of humanoid. Un-unh; this is hard, cold, documented, incontrovertible, inarguable evidenciary fact. So please—please, for your old pal Ashton—try to pay attention this time. Here it is again, from all the way back on page 6 of this thread, as originally reported by Steve Thomas, and this time I'm going to make some things bold for you: For the love of Buddha, Cliff, at almost the instant of the shooting Decker was on the Dallas Police Department Channel 2 saying something had "happened in there" in "the railroad yard." Motorcycle policemen in the motorcade instantly dropped their bikes in the street and charged to that area, and people of course followed! Hell, Bowers himself says in his testimony that immediately after the shooting "there was a motorcycle policeman who shot nearly all of the way to the top of the incline." They all had just been informed urgently on DPD Channel 2 that something "happened in there." What do you expect the cops on and near the scene to do? Go to Dunkin' Donuts? And what do you expect a crowd of onlookers to do when they see every cop on the scene racing toward the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) parking lot/railroad yard immediately after the President of the United States has just been shot right before their eyes? Within 40 seconds of Decker's broadcast, the Sheriff's Department made its broadcast. How many times have I made the point that Decker instantly ordered the County Courts building emptied? Let's consider this soberly: the first thought planted in the very instant of greatest shock was "something happened in there" in the railroad track area "just north of Elm." Meaning the TSBD parking lot. Meaning right where you to this day are insisting "something happened in there." And then what did the people running this little show do? They moved it all just slightly, into the TSBD. And they stuck the whole world right there. Do you know what "psy ops" means? Do you know how it works? Do you really know how these scum work? Do you know the significance, in the use of such black arts, of planting an idea in a moment of intense shock and dispersal and emotional stress and pain? If you don't, trust me: they do. But even if you don't buy that there was a psy-op involved (the effects of which are reverberating to this very instant), even with that discounted out of hand, just look at "Exhibit A," above. Just look with your eyes. I. Don't. Give. A. Damn. Can I make it any plainer? I wouldn't care if you marched in 10,000 army-classed female virgin sharpshooters dressed as angels singing "It's a sniper's paradise" in four-part harmony (assuming they have sopranos). I don't need professional government killers (I'm sorry: I meant "experts") or itchy-finger angels to tell me what I see with my own eyes. That my personal integrity, not theirs. And what I see in "Exhibit A" is one of the most ridiculous scenarios anybody could possibly dream up even in a fever, even on hallucinogens, for the daylight murder of the president of the most powerful nation in the world. That's what I see. You see whatever you want to see. As for what "world class sniper Craig Roberts" saw, did you bother to find out when he made a record of his Holy Epiphany Behind the Picket Fence? It wouldn't have been put into the book he released in the aftermath of the popular surge of Oliver Stone's "JFK," would it? Would you care to check? Did Myra before she dropped it into this thread explaining how she thought it "relevant"? Did Terry before she checked in with her Roberts endorsement? I did. So y'all party on behind the fence. You've sat there for forty-three years hoping to find a perp. (Or two. Or three. Or.... How many?) Sit there for another forty-three for all I care. And you won't find one—not one dressed as a cop, not one dressed as a tramp, not one dressed in drag, and not one dressed as Baby Jesus. It's a blind, dead fence corner. There is no trail. Fiction doesn't leave a trail. That's why you can't pick one up, into the area or out. And you never will. Of course I'm happy to provide any views of this model anybody wants to see. I'm happy to discuss actual evidence. But as for chasing will o' the wisps behind the fence, I'm done. I've already said I'm done. Thanks for the sermons, thanks for the religious artifacts, thanks for the concern about my research soul, and thanks especially to each of you for the offers to let me take a seat with you in the pew behind the fence. But you're simply not going to get a convert. And this sinner's got bid'ness elsewhere. Ashton ********************************************************** "And what I see in "Exhibit A" is one of the most ridiculous scenarios anybody could possibly dream up even in a fever, even on hallucinogens, for the daylight murder of the president of the most powerful nation in the world. That's what I see. You see whatever you want to see. As for what "world class sniper Craig Roberts" saw, did you bother to find out when he made a record of his Holy Epiphany Behind the Picket Fence? It wouldn't have been put into the book he released in the aftermath of the popular surge of Oliver Stone's "JFK," would it? Would you care to check? Did Myra before she dropped it into this thread explaining how she thought it "relevant"? Did Terry before she checked in with her Roberts endorsement? I did. So y'all party on behind the fence. You've sat there for forty-three years hoping to find a perp. (Or two. Or three. Or.... How many?) Sit there for another forty-three for all I care. And you won't find one—not one dressed as a cop, not one dressed as a tramp, not one dressed in drag, and not one dressed as Baby Jesus. It's a blind, dead fence corner. There is no trail. Fiction doesn't leave a trail. That's why you can't pick one up, into the area or out. And you never will." O.K. Let me see if I've got this straight now. The shot came from the Dal-Tex Building, possibly the 2nd floor, from a high-powered rifle with a mercury filled load [which theoretically is designed to explode upon contact], blew out the back of JFK's right occiput, as he turned to wave to the crowd to his right. Therefore, the Zapruder film is a cartoon, and the Parkland doctors and nurses were in on the scam and purposely reported the mercury bullet ENTRY wound to the right occiput, as an EXIT wound in order to confuse and confound any spectators or witnesses in the crowd so as to eventually discredit their testimony should anyone other than the authorities have the audacity to decide to perform an investigation separately from the one expected to be done by the gov. And, Decker sent out an APB which was picked up by the motorcycle detail, for them to secure the railroad yard, causing a knee-jerk response from the crowd of spectators who followed the motorcycle detail up the Grassy Knoll, like the Lemmings they were programmed to react as. Nice work, Ash. Hopefully you, Jack, and Cliff will be able to change the spin on this case to reflect a more accurate depiction of what really happened that day.

And a good morning to you Terry, my most favorite former New Orleans resident. It is assumed that your question is actually exactly what were the .50 calibers utilized for???? If not the correct question, then my mistake. First off, in event that you have missed out on it: http://www.answers.com/topic/general-motor...tcar-conspiracy Having long ago drug William Pawley & his Miami & Havanna street car ownership out into the open, one truly needs to look at those who were behind these activities. Which of course included Standard Oil of California, as well as the Goodyear Tire Company, who's President was a frequent golf player at the La Gorce Country Club in Miami, which Pawley was part owner with, along with George Smather's father. Not to mention of course, ole "Hugh Purvis", as well as Sally, Lawyer for the Sugar industry. One may find it of some strange coincidence that a Standard Oil (S. American Subsidary) employee who lived down around Miami, accidentally encountered LHO on his trip to Mexico. Just did not want you to miss out on your old favorite, Standard Oil. And of course, one may want to ultimately see if Firestone Tire and Rubber had any interests down in Brazil as well. Anyway, back to the .50 Caliber. It's predecessor was the .30 Caliber water cooled browning of WW1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browning_Model_1917_machine_gun And as indicated, the water cooled browning stayed around for many years, even though it lost it's title as the "Heavy" machine gun, when the .50 caliber came out. We still had the water cooled in the Army National Guard in the early 1960', . But then again, we also had the M1-Garand as well. Nevertheless, the .30 caliber water cooled created some problems with WW1, in addition to the requirement for having a supply of water in order to maintain it's maximum cyclic rate of fire. Also, WW1 gave us the first true usage of armor (tanks), and the .30 caliber was not sufficient to affect this new advent in warfare. Therefore, the advent of the .50 caliber as the primary "Heavy" machine gun of ground combat forces. And, it was thereafter equipped with an extreme variety of rounds which included everything from the armor piercing to the WP/tracer round. Thereafter, a wide variety of usage for the .50 caliber was done, and it was utilized in everything from Anti-aircraft weaponery to single shot "spotter" rounds which were fired from tanks for range verification, as well as from anti-tank type weapons. The .50 caliber also saw usage in aircraft as well. So, although there was reported usage of the .50 caliber as a long range sniper rifle, this would have been extremely rare in it's usage. It was primarily an anti-vehicle/anti-tank/anti-bunker(emplacement)/anti-aircraft weapon which due to it's firepower/range, could penetrate armor as well as eat up a concrete bunker if necessary, from an extreme range. And, with a common load being every fifth round in the belt being a tracer round, it was quite easy to adjust fire onto the target from such long ranges. You will also find that Western Cartridge Company (maker of the 6.5mm Carcano ammo), also produced rounds for the U.S. Government, in the .50 Caliber as well. Somewhere, I have a few of these old rounds which I managed to acquire, just to document the WCC's long history of US armament association. Hope that was what you were looking for. Tom So old that the only "bunnies" in my life are Barbara's grouping of flop-eared rabbits. Forgot to add this, in order that one does not have to take my word for anything. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_machine_gun ********************************************************** "Just did not want you to miss out on your old favorite, Standard Oil. And of course, one may want to ultimately see if Firestone Tire and Rubber had any interests down in Brazil as well." Yep, that's exactly what my Dad told me when they started tearing up and paving over the old trolley tracks that had once run under that section that was left of the Third Avenue El in the Bronx, and were still in place under the Broadway Uptown El until 1957. "It was primarily an anti-vehicle/anti-tank/anti-bunker(emplacement)/anti-aircraft weapon which due to it's firepower/range, could penetrate armor as well as eat up a concrete bunker if necessary, from an extreme range. And, with a common load being every fifth round in the belt being a tracer round, it was quite easy to adjust fire onto the target from such long ranges." WOW!!! That's exactly what I wanted to find out. And hey, I knew you'd come through for me, Purv! Now I know why my brother got all upset with me asking him for specifics on the .50 while he was calling me from his cellphone. It sounds like a mini-rocket launcher. And, what's even more bizarre is that the M 107 is 57 inches long! That's 3 inches shorter than me, in height! And, weighing in at 34 lbs., trying to hoist that up on my shoulder would knock me flat on my ass before I'd had a chance to even site it in, let alone put my finger on the trigger! Not to mention the pricetag of $7,750.00, could choke a horse! I think I'll stick with my little Chinese SKS. Nice looking piece of equipment though, for some big dude, that is. "So old that the only "bunnies" in my life are Barbara's grouping of flop-eared rabbits." Yeah, but you still have this "old" bunny in your life, now. And, I appreciate you, and the knowledge you bring to this forum, Purv. You can always get my picture in New Orleans from Dawnie, if you want. I'm sure Barb wouldn't mind. After all, it's 41, almost 42 years old, nowadays. We all get old. It's that inevitable part of life. Anyhoola, thanks mucho for the info on my favorite rifle, seeing as they don't tell you too much about what the capabilities of it are really all about, on their website. OK But I still believe that I got somewhat off track and did not go into the .50 caliber rifle which on re-read, you addressed. ************************************************************ "The NVA had snipers who utilized a large caliber bolt action rifle, almost of the .50caliber. And, the .50 in a rifle form can make an excellent sniper type weapon, as well as the fact that it will penetrate virtually any body armor (bullet proof vests) known to exist. So, other than hunting elephants and T-Rex, the rifle does have limited tactical usage against personnel targets, especially if one wants to shoot through something to strike the target. Just that they are not usually engaged at the ranges at which it is capable of." And, I'm still inquiring with regard to the single bolt action rifle here too, Purv. I guess I should've made that clearer. But, they all appear to have the same 4.2 mile range, be it for Military, S.W.A.T., or Civilian issue, according to the specs listed on the Barrett website, and recommended with a 661 grain M33 ball. So, the weight of the load you were using would no doubt have an effect the range, wouldn't it? Ammo weight is naturally a key element of range, as is the actual grains of powder, and projectile design. If recalled correctly, the armor piercing rounds had a little something extra in the amount of powder, thus adding to the velocity and it's impact energies. No doubt, they are making a variety of "specialized" ammo for these weapons and with the range of the rifle, they have brought personnel targets well into ranges in which the uneducated target may think that he is home free. Not much use in the jungles, but in the open desert type area, this could be of benefit. No doubt, the concept came from the usage of the .50 caliber as a "spotter round" in range determination for tanks as well as the old recoiless rifles/anti-tank weapons. Now, with the advent of laser targeting systems, one can determine range without the need for spotter rounds, and in the case of the .50 caliber and a trained/skilled operator, acquire first round hits at tremedous ranges. ************************************************************ Thanks for setting the record straight for me on that, Purv. Much obliged. Ter

And it is a source of infinite sadness that all the King's Experts and all the King's Friends haven't solved the case. Ashton **************************************************************** "And it is a source of infinite sadness that all the King's Experts and all the King's Friends haven't solved the case. Ashton" LUCKY MAN Words and Music by Emerson, Lake, and Palmer He had white Horses And ladies by the score All dressed in satin And waiting by the door Ooooh, what a lucky man he was Ooooh, what a lucky man he was White lace and feathers They made up his bed A gold covered mattress On which he was led Ooooh, what a lucky man he was Ooooh, what a lucky man he was He went to fight wars For his country and his king Of his honor and his glory The people would sing Ooooh, what a lucky man he was Ooooh, what a lucky man he was A bullet had found him His blood ran as he cried No money could save him So he laid down and he died Ooooh, what a lucky man he was Ooooh, what a lucky man he was

Hey Purv, how are you doing these days? Just got back from a great time down in Austin. But, before I left I noticed, in my "Bookmarks," where I'd saved some information I'd gotten regarding that Barrett firearms manufacturer out of Murfreesboro, TN? The company that makes those .50 caliber rifles? Specifically the 95, 99, 107, and the 468 that if used with a 661 grain projectile loaded to a M33 ball, has a range of 8800 meters, or 7450 yards which translates into roughly, 4.2 miles. Now, not to change the subject entirely on the MLCC, or be accused of hijacking this thread, could you tell me what kind of target you would likely take down with that Barrett .50 caliber firearm? Seeing as my friend, John V. Ritchson is no longer with us on this earthly plane to consult with on a regular basis, with respect to these matters. Thanks, Ter And a good morning to you Terry, my most favorite former New Orleans resident. It is assumed that your question is actually exactly what were the .50 calibers utilized for???? If not the correct question, then my mistake. First off, in event that you have missed out on it: http://www.answers.com/topic/general-motor...tcar-conspiracy Having long ago drug William Pawley & his Miami & Havanna street car ownership out into the open, one truly needs to look at those who were behind these activities. Which of course included Standard Oil of California, as well as the Goodyear Tire Company, who's President was a frequent golf player at the La Gorce Country Club in Miami, which Pawley was part owner with, along with George Smather's father. Not to mention of course, ole "Hugh Purvis", as well as Sally, Lawyer for the Sugar industry. One may find it of some strange coincidence that a Standard Oil (S. American Subsidary) employee who lived down around Miami, accidentally encountered LHO on his trip to Mexico. Just did not want you to miss out on your old favorite, Standard Oil. And of course, one may want to ultimately see if Firestone Tire and Rubber had any interests down in Brazil as well. Anyway, back to the .50 Caliber. It's predecessor was the .30 Caliber water cooled browning of WW1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browning_Model_1917_machine_gun And as indicated, the water cooled browning stayed around for many years, even though it lost it's title as the "Heavy" machine gun, when the .50 caliber came out. We still had the water cooled in the Army National Guard in the early 1960', . But then again, we also had the M1-Garand as well. Nevertheless, the .30 caliber water cooled created some problems with WW1, in addition to the requirement for having a supply of water in order to maintain it's maximum cyclic rate of fire. Also, WW1 gave us the first true usage of armor (tanks), and the .30 caliber was not sufficient to affect this new advent in warfare. Therefore, the advent of the .50 caliber as the primary "Heavy" machine gun of ground combat forces. And, it was thereafter equipped with an extreme variety of rounds which included everything from the armor piercing to the WP/tracer round. Thereafter, a wide variety of usage for the .50 caliber was done, and it was utilized in everything from Anti-aircraft weaponery to single shot "spotter" rounds which were fired from tanks for range verification, as well as from anti-tank type weapons. The .50 caliber also saw usage in aircraft as well. So, although there was reported usage of the .50 caliber as a long range sniper rifle, this would have been extremely rare in it's usage. It was primarily an anti-vehicle/anti-tank/anti-bunker(emplacement)/anti-aircraft weapon which due to it's firepower/range, could penetrate armor as well as eat up a concrete bunker if necessary, from an extreme range. And, with a common load being every fifth round in the belt being a tracer round, it was quite easy to adjust fire onto the target from such long ranges. You will also find that Western Cartridge Company (maker of the 6.5mm Carcano ammo), also produced rounds for the U.S. Government, in the .50 Caliber as well. Somewhere, I have a few of these old rounds which I managed to acquire, just to document the WCC's long history of US armament association. Hope that was what you were looking for. Tom So old that the only "bunnies" in my life are Barbara's grouping of flop-eared rabbits. Forgot to add this, in order that one does not have to take my word for anything. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_machine_gun ********************************************************** "Just did not want you to miss out on your old favorite, Standard Oil. And of course, one may want to ultimately see if Firestone Tire and Rubber had any interests down in Brazil as well." Yep, that's exactly what my Dad told me when they started tearing up and paving over the old trolley tracks that had once run under that section that was left of the Third Avenue El in the Bronx, and were still in place under the Broadway Uptown El until 1957. "It was primarily an anti-vehicle/anti-tank/anti-bunker(emplacement)/anti-aircraft weapon which due to it's firepower/range, could penetrate armor as well as eat up a concrete bunker if necessary, from an extreme range. And, with a common load being every fifth round in the belt being a tracer round, it was quite easy to adjust fire onto the target from such long ranges." WOW!!! That's exactly what I wanted to find out. And hey, I knew you'd come through for me, Purv! Now I know why my brother got all upset with me asking him for specifics on the .50 while he was calling me from his cellphone. It sounds like a mini-rocket launcher. And, what's even more bizarre is that the M 107 is 57 inches long! That's 3 inches shorter than me, in height! And, weighing in at 34 lbs., trying to hoist that up on my shoulder would knock me flat on my ass before I'd had a chance to even site it in, let alone put my finger on the trigger! Not to mention the pricetag of $7,750.00, could choke a horse! I think I'll stick with my little Chinese SKS. Nice looking piece of equipment though, for some big dude, that is. "So old that the only "bunnies" in my life are Barbara's grouping of flop-eared rabbits." Yeah, but you still have this "old" bunny in your life, now. And, I appreciate you, and the knowledge you bring to this forum, Purv. You can always get my picture in New Orleans from Dawnie, if you want. I'm sure Barb wouldn't mind. After all, it's 41, almost 42 years old, nowadays. We all get old. It's that inevitable part of life. Anyhoola, thanks mucho for the info on my favorite rifle, seeing as they don't tell you too much about what the capabilities of it are really all about, on their website. OK But I still believe that I got somewhat off track and did not go into the .50 caliber rifle which on re-read, you addressed. ************************************************************ "The NVA had snipers who utilized a large caliber bolt action rifle, almost of the .50caliber. And, the .50 in a rifle form can make an excellent sniper type weapon, as well as the fact that it will penetrate virtually any body armor (bullet proof vests) known to exist. So, other than hunting elephants and T-Rex, the rifle does have limited tactical usage against personnel targets, especially if one wants to shoot through something to strike the target. Just that they are not usually engaged at the ranges at which it is capable of." And, I'm still inquiring with regard to the single bolt action rifle here too, Purv. I guess I should've made that clearer. But, they all appear to have the same 4.2 mile range, be it for Military, S.W.A.T., or Civilian issue, according to the specs listed on the Barrett website, and recommended with a 661 grain M33 ball. So, the weight of the load you were using would no doubt have an effect the range, wouldn't it?

Funny you should mention this! I was just thinking about this the other day... I'm one of those people who have hoarded the JFK half dollars... I suspect my collection, such as it is, holds far more sentimental value than it does monetary, though. Oh well. ************************************************************ "Anyone here save Kennedy half dollars?" My Dad, of course, along with the Silver Certificates that used to be our paper currency before it became known as Federal Reserve Notes. He hoarded silver quarters and dimes, and gave silver dollars to us kids, and his nieces and nephews, at Christmas. I believe my younger brother Steven, who was the executor of my Dad's estate, now has most of the quality items of my father's collection in his possession.

************************************************************* "As well as the Parkland trauma team's findings..a blow out to the back of the head...they were the first trained medical witnesses, as well as Hill and others who saw such...but which upon the bodys arrival at Bethesda, though it was also seen, it had become much larger in size..according to witnessses..... Though you would never know it by the autopsy photos, or the Bethesda Doctor's reports..imo ...nothing is in stone in the JFK assn...it should have been from the beginning but.....and it all changes according to whomever's latest whims at times." And, so right you are, Bernie! The pictures of the back of the head at Bethesda, belie the hole in the right occiput, as that photo depicts JFK's full head of hair seemingly intact over where the exit wound was supposed to be. Although upon further scrutiny one is able to make out a fold of something that appears to look like the scalp, behind the right ear and which looks as if it's being held in place by one of the surgeon's hands. The exit wound itself looks like it's been filled in with something to give it a rounded definition of the skull still being intact, with the scalp pulled into place over it. Thus, masking the true exit wound. Thanks for the Bill Miller picture, Bern. You always had a great eye for picking out the needle in the haystack or separating the wheat from the chaff, as they say.

********************************************************** Hey Purv, how are you doing these days? Just got back from a great time down in Austin. But, before I left I noticed, in my "Bookmarks," where I'd saved some information I'd gotten regarding that Barrett firearms manufacturer out of Murfreesboro, TN? The company that makes those .50 caliber rifles? Specifically the 95, 99, 107, and the 468 that if used with a 661 grain projectile loaded to a M33 ball, has a range of 8800 meters, or 7450 yards which translates into roughly, 4.2 miles. Now, not to change the subject entirely on the MLCC, or be accused of hijacking this thread, could you tell me what kind of target you would likely take down with that Barrett .50 caliber firearm? Seeing as my friend, John V. Ritchson is no longer with us on this earthly plane to consult with on a regular basis, with respect to these matters. Thanks, Ter And a good morning to you Terry, my most favorite former New Orleans resident. It is assumed that your question is actually exactly what were the .50 calibers utilized for???? If not the correct question, then my mistake. First off, in event that you have missed out on it: http://www.answers.com/topic/general-motor...tcar-conspiracy Having long ago drug William Pawley & his Miami & Havanna street car ownership out into the open, one truly needs to look at those who were behind these activities. Which of course included Standard Oil of California, as well as the Goodyear Tire Company, who's President was a frequent golf player at the La Gorce Country Club in Miami, which Pawley was part owner with, along with George Smather's father. Not to mention of course, ole "Hugh Purvis", as well as Sally, Lawyer for the Sugar industry. One may find it of some strange coincidence that a Standard Oil (S. American Subsidary) employee who lived down around Miami, accidentally encountered LHO on his trip to Mexico. Just did not want you to miss out on your old favorite, Standard Oil. And of course, one may want to ultimately see if Firestone Tire and Rubber had any interests down in Brazil as well. Anyway, back to the .50 Caliber. It's predecessor was the .30 Caliber water cooled browning of WW1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browning_Model_1917_machine_gun And as indicated, the water cooled browning stayed around for many years, even though it lost it's title as the "Heavy" machine gun, when the .50 caliber came out. We still had the water cooled in the Army National Guard in the early 1960', . But then again, we also had the M1-Garand as well. Nevertheless, the .30 caliber water cooled created some problems with WW1, in addition to the requirement for having a supply of water in order to maintain it's maximum cyclic rate of fire. Also, WW1 gave us the first true usage of armor (tanks), and the .30 caliber was not sufficient to affect this new advent in warfare. Therefore, the advent of the .50 caliber as the primary "Heavy" machine gun of ground combat forces. And, it was thereafter equipped with an extreme variety of rounds which included everything from the armor piercing to the WP/tracer round. Thereafter, a wide variety of usage for the .50 caliber was done, and it was utilized in everything from Anti-aircraft weaponery to single shot "spotter" rounds which were fired from tanks for range verification, as well as from anti-tank type weapons. The .50 caliber also saw usage in aircraft as well. So, although there was reported usage of the .50 caliber as a long range sniper rifle, this would have been extremely rare in it's usage. It was primarily an anti-vehicle/anti-tank/anti-bunker(emplacement)/anti-aircraft weapon which due to it's firepower/range, could penetrate armor as well as eat up a concrete bunker if necessary, from an extreme range. And, with a common load being every fifth round in the belt being a tracer round, it was quite easy to adjust fire onto the target from such long ranges. You will also find that Western Cartridge Company (maker of the 6.5mm Carcano ammo), also produced rounds for the U.S. Government, in the .50 Caliber as well. Somewhere, I have a few of these old rounds which I managed to acquire, just to document the WCC's long history of US armament association. Hope that was what you were looking for. Tom So old that the only "bunnies" in my life are Barbara's grouping of flop-eared rabbits. ********************************************************** Hey Purv, how are you doing these days? Just got back from a great time down in Austin. But, before I left I noticed, in my "Bookmarks," where I'd saved some information I'd gotten regarding that Barrett firearms manufacturer out of Murfreesboro, TN? The company that makes those .50 caliber rifles? Specifically the 95, 99, 107, and the 468 that if used with a 661 grain projectile loaded to a M33 ball, has a range of 8800 meters, or 7450 yards which translates into roughly, 4.2 miles. Now, not to change the subject entirely on the MLCC, or be accused of hijacking this thread, could you tell me what kind of target you would likely take down with that Barrett .50 caliber firearm? Seeing as my friend, John V. Ritchson is no longer with us on this earthly plane to consult with on a regular basis, with respect to these matters. Thanks, Ter And a good morning to you Terry, my most favorite former New Orleans resident. It is assumed that your question is actually exactly what were the .50 calibers utilized for???? If not the correct question, then my mistake. First off, in event that you have missed out on it: http://www.answers.com/topic/general-motor...tcar-conspiracy Having long ago drug William Pawley & his Miami & Havanna street car ownership out into the open, one truly needs to look at those who were behind these activities. Which of course included Standard Oil of California, as well as the Goodyear Tire Company, who's President was a frequent golf player at the La Gorce Country Club in Miami, which Pawley was part owner with, along with George Smather's father. Not to mention of course, ole "Hugh Purvis", as well as Sally, Lawyer for the Sugar industry. One may find it of some strange coincidence that a Standard Oil (S. American Subsidary) employee who lived down around Miami, accidentally encountered LHO on his trip to Mexico. Just did not want you to miss out on your old favorite, Standard Oil. And of course, one may want to ultimately see if Firestone Tire and Rubber had any interests down in Brazil as well. Anyway, back to the .50 Caliber. It's predecessor was the .30 Caliber water cooled browning of WW1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browning_Model_1917_machine_gun And as indicated, the water cooled browning stayed around for many years, even though it lost it's title as the "Heavy" machine gun, when the .50 caliber came out. We still had the water cooled in the Army National Guard in the early 1960', . But then again, we also had the M1-Garand as well. Nevertheless, the .30 caliber water cooled created some problems with WW1, in addition to the requirement for having a supply of water in order to maintain it's maximum cyclic rate of fire. Also, WW1 gave us the first true usage of armor (tanks), and the .30 caliber was not sufficient to affect this new advent in warfare. Therefore, the advent of the .50 caliber as the primary "Heavy" machine gun of ground combat forces. And, it was thereafter equipped with an extreme variety of rounds which included everything from the armor piercing to the WP/tracer round. Thereafter, a wide variety of usage for the .50 caliber was done, and it was utilized in everything from Anti-aircraft weaponery to single shot "spotter" rounds which were fired from tanks for range verification, as well as from anti-tank type weapons. The .50 caliber also saw usage in aircraft as well. So, although there was reported usage of the .50 caliber as a long range sniper rifle, this would have been extremely rare in it's usage. It was primarily an anti-vehicle/anti-tank/anti-bunker(emplacement)/anti-aircraft weapon which due to it's firepower/range, could penetrate armor as well as eat up a concrete bunker if necessary, from an extreme range. And, with a common load being every fifth round in the belt being a tracer round, it was quite easy to adjust fire onto the target from such long ranges. You will also find that Western Cartridge Company (maker of the 6.5mm Carcano ammo), also produced rounds for the U.S. Government, in the .50 Caliber as well. Somewhere, I have a few of these old rounds which I managed to acquire, just to document the WCC's long history of US armament association. Hope that was what you were looking for. Tom So old that the only "bunnies" in my life are Barbara's grouping of flop-eared rabbits. Forgot to add this, in order that one does not have to take my word for anything. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_machine_gun ********************************************************** "Just did not want you to miss out on your old favorite, Standard Oil. And of course, one may want to ultimately see if Firestone Tire and Rubber had any interests down in Brazil as well." Yep, that's exactly what my Dad told me when they started tearing up and paving over the old trolley tracks that had once run under that section that was left of the Third Avenue El in the Bronx, and were still in place under the Broadway Uptown El until 1957. "It was primarily an anti-vehicle/anti-tank/anti-bunker(emplacement)/anti-aircraft weapon which due to it's firepower/range, could penetrate armor as well as eat up a concrete bunker if necessary, from an extreme range. And, with a common load being every fifth round in the belt being a tracer round, it was quite easy to adjust fire onto the target from such long ranges." WOW!!! That's exactly what I wanted to find out. And hey, I knew you'd come through for me, Purv! Now I know why my brother got all upset with me asking him for specifics on the .50 while he was calling me from his cellphone. It sounds like a mini-rocket launcher. And, what's even more bizarre is that the M 107 is 57 inches long! That's 3 inches shorter than me, in height! And, weighing in at 34 lbs., trying to hoist that up on my shoulder would knock me flat on my ass before I'd had a chance to even site it in, let alone put my finger on the trigger! Not to mention the pricetag of $7,750.00, could choke a horse! I think I'll stick with my little Chinese SKS. Nice looking piece of equipment though, for some big dude, that is. "So old that the only "bunnies" in my life are Barbara's grouping of flop-eared rabbits." Yeah, but you still have this "old" bunny in your life, now. And, I appreciate you, and the knowledge you bring to this forum, Purv. You can always get my picture in New Orleans from Dawnie, if you want. I'm sure Barb wouldn't mind. After all, it's 41, almost 42 years old, nowadays. We all get old. It's that inevitable part of life. Anyhoola, thanks mucho for the info on my favorite rifle, seeing as they don't tell you too much about what the capabilities of it are really all about, on their website.

I certainly wouldn't want to lure anyone from it, and I respect anyone's independent assessment and analysis of supportable fact. I've yet to explore the County Records building, per se, but I've just completed a rather involved exercise that took some time of setting up views from every window in the County Courts building. Once I can export jpegs of the view from each window, I think I'm going to post it in a separate thread. Could be. But I sure hope that "sure bet on the kill shot" wasn't supposed to come from the "Badge Man" location. Either that, or I hope that my model has some pretty significant elevation problems that I can get corrected. Because here's the "Badge Man" view of the "sure bet on the kill shot" the way it looks to me in the model at the moment: I'm actually hoping someone can provide some photographic evidence that would demonstrate that that's not the way it is, which would help me find flaws in the model's elevations. That's all I can conceive it to be, because the locations of landmarks are according to the Dealey Plaza schematics in circulation. That's very interesting to hear. I thought they read like spy fiction. I much prefer a quote that Mr. Roberts has at the top his own web site, by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle: "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." I found the passage Myra quoted to be 99 and 99 one hundredths pure theory without a single substantive fact in view, and mused that Mr. Roberts could do worse than to follow the advice on his web site. Then again, I don't have books to sell, so I may be biased. I'm lost. Are those in this thread, or could you post them? I'm trying to get a location to put in the smoke, and I'll say again that I'm not convinced that there was a gunshot wound to the throat. It seems to me that that, too, is an unproven theory, upon which enough theories have been built to climb and touch the sky. If the "throat shot" theory is false, then as long as such a theory is held into place as indisputable fact, all theories built upon it necessarily will be false. It also seems to me—theoretically—that it would be in the greatest possible interests of culpable parties to introduce just such a fundamental falsehood into the record and have it become an unmovable datum around which all other data attempts to align. When that is accomplished well, all progress toward the truth stops and revolves infinitely around the anchored falsehood, like a kiddie pony ride. At the moment, with the information I've seen, the purported "throat wound" is a prime candidate for just such a hub of infinite spin. Ashton ******************************************************** "I thought they read like spy fiction. I much prefer a quote that Mr. Roberts has at the top his own web site, by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle: "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." I found the passage Myra quoted to be 99 and 99 one hundredths pure theory without a single substantive fact in view, and mused that Mr. Roberts could do worse than to follow the advice on his web site. Then again, I don't have books to sell, so I may be biased." A good friend of mine and Dawnie's, passed away last year, his name was John Ritchson. He was with Bravo Company in VietNam, and was a ballistician with his own gunworks, in co-partnership with his father, in the state of Montana. He collaborated on multiple occasions with Craig Roberts and had the highest regard and respect for his work. John Ritchson was also held in high regard for his expertise in the field of ballistics, as well as for his work and contribution to the Prouty, JFKResearch, Lancer, and The Education Forum. If he deferred to Craig Roberts on numerous projects he was working on, then I'm more apt to follow suit when it comes to whom I'm going to consult for accuracy when citing statistical analysis with respect to missile/bullet trajectory, as well as lines of site. I'm also of the opinion that the Parkland physicians, specifically those specializing in the field of trauma, triage, and forensics inherent in those cases most likely to be presented in Emergency Room/Department scenarios, to be the most accurate in assessing wounds inflicted on the human body immediately following trauma. Anterior means entering frontally, be it the right forehead, above the right eye, or the anterior aspect of the neck, below the cricoid cartilage and above the suprasternal notch.

********************************************************* "I urge everyone to respond to this call. Let us make it the most interactive program broadcast on Newsnight. Provide lots of information on the case and call for follow-up programs on people like Morales and Joannides." Previewing your Comment Regardless of what Lisa Pease stated above, and I have the highest, utmost respect for her opinion, I find the connection between the I.D.'s made by those who worked with, and for JM/WAVE, those who had first hand knowledge of, as well as acquaintance with Morales, Campbell, and Johnannides, compelling enough in their interviews to be taken seriously. The fact that Georges Johannides was inadequately vetted by Blakey prior to Blakey's assigning him the position as CIA liason for the H.S.C.A., responsible for the flow of information from its headquarters at Langley, speaks volumes with regard to the ineptitude with which the U.S. gov. continually seeks to exculpate itself from having to assume responsibility for ensuring that an unbiased, untainted thorough investigation of these assassinations, be forthcoming. Those who continue to chide researchers for their undaunted efforts in exposing these travesties, or those who would ridicule them for their unwillingness to accept the status quo as presented by the media's [already compromised since 1947] "talking heads." And, I'm referring to those of you so quick on the draw as to deride anyone who might exercise their right to independent thought, not to mention skills in logic and critical thinking. It's you I'm addressing, here. Because, it's YOUR knee-jerk acceptance of what the gov., be it U.K. or U.S., decides it wants YOU to believe, that relegates YOU to the status of an ostrich burying its head in the sand. Why? Because the naked truth assaults your idea of what a pampered, cozy, stress free, SUV, plasma-screen HDTV, iPod accessoried existence, should be. Posted by: Theresa C. Mauro | December 3, 2006 10:07 PM * (If you haven't left a comment here before, you may need to be approved by the site owner before your comment will appear. Until then, it won't appear on the entry. Thanks for waiting.) Hmmm...Why is this reminiscent of posting on McAdams'? Just a coincidence, I'm sure.

***************************************************** "that the REAL and COVERT space projects are being run by these techno-fascists in the CIA and NSA behind-the-scenes, who are making every effort to keep America in general from establishing a foothold in space. Kimory claims that Wernher von Braun and Kurt Davis, heads of Kennedy Space Center and Marshall Space Flight Center, were both active Nazi S.S. agents even after they were brought into America with the help of Nazi infiltrators and sympathizers in U.S. Intelligence. James Garrison had arrested Clay Shaw on conspiracy to murder JFK, linking him with the CIA. However, when Garrison's star witness David Ferrie was found dead only a few days before Clay Shaw's trial, Garrison did not have enough against Shaw to make a conviction. It was later discovered in a FOIA document in 1977 that Clay Shaw HAD BEEN in the CIA since 1949. Garrison also linked Fred L. Crisman to Clay Shaw, and in fact sources indicate that Crisman was the first one Clay Shaw called when Shaw learned that he was in trouble. Is was discovered that Shaw was in business with European NAZIS and FASCISTS who were involved in covert operations sponsored by the CIA, according to the article. Shaw was also allegedly tied-in with the O.S.S. Crisman, who worked as a go-between in the Military-Industrial establishment (especially the aerospace companies which were the major beneficiaries of Project Paperclip) was believed by Garrison to be a 'middle man' within a deep-level intelligence network, working in- between those who gave the orders (which included assassinations) and those who carried them out. Garrison also believed that Crisman was involved with the men who carried out the JFK assassination, and Crisman had also made several trips to Dallas just prior to JFK's death, which is why Garrison subpoenaed him. Crisman was also involved with a government program to 'help gypsies', was tied-in with the O.S.S., and was a member of a secret fraternity of former Intelligence officers, and was also involved with organized crime, according to Garrison's investigations. Of course the strangest aspect of the Crisman connection was that it was Fred L. Crisman himself who handed over 'metal-slag' samples that were reportedly found after a 'UFO' [one of six 'donut- shaped' vehicles observed -- remember, the Nazis had developed jet-turbine engines that were 'donut-shaped' in configuration rather than cylindrical] dropped the substance over the Maurey Island area near Tacoma, Washington in 1947, killing a dog and injuring one person who was on a boat in Tacoma harbor in the process. Crisman handed the samples to two Army G-2 Intelligence officers, Capt. William L. Davidson and Lt. Frank M. Brown. On their way to Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio (where several German Peenemunde scientists reportedly worked) with the 'classified' material, their plane crashed and both were killed. News reports of the time mentioned that the plane MAY have been sabotaged. Frank Brown's widow did in fact state her conviction that her husband was murdered. In addition to this, a particularly persistent reporter into the Maurey Island episode died shortly after the investigation, and Kenneth Arnold (who had his Mt. Rainier sighting and almost fatal engine failure only a few days later) reported that his room, where he often discussed the Maurey Island case with United Airlines Captain E. J. Smith, had been bugged. Kimory suggests that the Maurey Island UFO may have been a 'hybrid' of the Nazi UFO designs developed by the Military-Industrial Establishment and PROJECT PAPERCLIP, which might explain the mystery. [For more information on 'Project Paperclip', see also: SECRET AGENDA, by Linda Hunt. St. Martins Press. 1991]. * * * * * * *" Thanks for that piece of info, Lee. It never ceases to amaze me as to what kind of snakes and serpents always manage to wriggle their venomous way into the heart of our seats of gov. These bastards may be of the highest caliber with respect to intellect, based upon their supposedly pure Aryan blood lines, but from what I've studied in the realm of genetics and inherited characteristics is this. The purer you attempt to narrow the gene pool in an effort to create a master race, or to isolate a perfect trait for perpetuity, the more at risk you become in creating an anomaly, or freak-ish, if not downright flawed aberration, be it an Idiot Savant, or a Tay-Sachs syndrome, to name a couple of the more milder variety, or even Sickle Cell anemia, to bring the analogy into a more familiar perspective. In any event, this how I've come to view the people associated with that philosophical mindset. They may be highly intelligent, rich, powerful, yet they're also dangerously monstrous, in their mendacious lust for power and control. But, they're also to viewed as psychotically deranged "bad seeds," in need of eradication, harsh as that may sound, but more likely along the lines of institutionalization, preferably in high security lock-down facilities. As you can readily understand my abhorrance of these super-intellectually psychotic individuals as witnessed by their total disregard for anything that doesn't conform to their twisted image of "white" perfection. Strength of the human race can only be assured by the process of natural selection, or survival of the fittest, incorporating a variety of racially mixed bloodlines. This is definitely not accomplished by isolating one particular gene pool from the rest under the mistaken notion of creating a super, pure race. Just witness any pure-bred animal show, or the crowned royalty of Europe. You may get the desired results, but you'll also get the undesirable abberrations, as well. And, that is not an experiment that bodes well when it comes to trying to refine the human race, simply because some half-witted in-bred says so. But, that's just MHO.

********************************************************** Hey Purv, how are you doing these days? Just got back from a great time down in Austin. But, before I left I noticed, in my "Bookmarks," where I'd saved some information I'd gotten regarding that Barrett firearms manufacturer out of Murfreesboro, TN? The company that makes those .50 caliber rifles? Specifically the 95, 99, 107, and the 468 that if used with a 661 grain projectile loaded to a M33 ball, has a range of 8800 meters, or 7450 yards which translates into roughly, 4.2 miles. Now, not to change the subject entirely on the MLCC, or be accused of hijacking this thread, could you tell me what kind of target you would likely take down with that Barrett .50 caliber firearm? Seeing as my friend, John V. Ritchson is no longer with us on this earthly plane to consult with on a regular basis, with respect to these matters. Thanks, Ter

I have had several emails from other researchers suggesting that something of importance might be going on. For example, the favourable article in the Times about JFK researchers, the BBC piece about the RFK assassination and the resulting publicity in the Guardian and the BBC Newsnight Forum. Then last night C4 showed Dollan Cannell’s documentary, “638 ways to Kill Fidel Castro”. E. Howard Hunt, Antonio Veciana, Felix I. Rodriguez, Orlando Bosch and Luis Posada were interviewed in the film and this morning three of our main daily newspapers wrote stories about the activities of anti-Castro militants in Miami. My sources tell me that Cannell’s film will lead to another documentary inspired by the interview Veciana gave about the JFK assassination. The work of Shane O’Sullivan and Dollan Cannell are both linked to book deals. I have also been informed that a major publisher is looking to commission books on the subject of political assassinations. It is possible that this flurry of activity only reflects the time of year (the anniversary of JFK’s death and RFK’s birthday). However, it is possible that something else is happening. John Dolva has suggested that this might “be a concerted CIA drive to focus research on Cuba”. I am not convinced that is what is happening. Both O’Sullivan and Cannell received no help from the CIA in making their films. In fact, they were highly uncooperative. What is true is that some former CIA officers and contract workers are willing to talk to filmmakers. Some of these men are closely connected to the CIA attempts to remove Castro. I think it is understandable that these anti-Castro militants are willing to talk to UK filmmakers. They are obviously feeling that the current president has betrayed them in the same way his predecessors have. They want to see Castro removed by force before they die. Or more importantly, before Castro dies. If that means exposing the role the CIA played in these events, so be it. This is not to say the CIA is going to be inactive in responding to these disclosures. I suspect they are busy in a major disinformation campaign. I believe the form this will take will be to provide information suggesting that it was a CIA rogue operation that was led by David Sanchez Morales and Rip Robertson. What the CIA will protect to the end is the notion that CIA senior officers (John McCone, Richard Helms, James Jesus Angleton, Ted Shackley, Carl E. Jenkins, etc.) had anything to do with the assassination and the subsequent cover-up. This will involve playing down the role that Morales played in the CIA in the 1960s. ***************************************************** "I think it is understandable that these anti-Castro militants are willing to talk to UK filmmakers. They are obviously feeling that the current president has betrayed them in the same way his predecessors have. They want to see Castro removed by force before they die. Or more importantly, before Castro dies. If that means exposing the role the CIA played in these events, so be it." And, wouldn't it implicate them, as well? Seeing as those mentioned are nothing short of cold-blooded killers, anyway. It pisses me off, royally, that these criminals are allowed to walk, simply because they were willing to commit murder, be it of or for, take your pick, any P.O.T.U.S. not ready to jump at the chance to off Castro for them. Who the hell do they think they are? A bunch of malcontented old bastards, involving us in their problems. Shouldn't they be happy with the money and status quo they've been so undeservedly doted on, and accorded with, all these years? "before they die.." I hope Castro dies a peaceful death, way before they die, or better yet, outlives them all by twenty years. These former Cuban artistocratic assholes deserve nothing! Pawns as they chose to be, in the highest bidder's game. May they rot in hell for their misplaced loyalties.

I would like to know anything anyone has on a JS Martin of Oak Cliff, Texas, who lived there in 1963. He may provide some more links and answers. No one seems to have done much by way of figuring out the link between NASA and Reilly Coffee either. Why? ****************************************************************** "I was recently reading about the Philadelphia Experiment. It's almost impossible to make out what really transpired. Interestingly enough, one author [who as an aside has a Paperclipped Nazi as being firmly involved with the project - I posted on that elsewhere] had three different variations. They were interesting. The second one came almost as a paragraph. Some testing was being done - Einstein and Tesla were present. A UFO crashed into one of the ships in front of everyone - people were hurt. The crew of the SS Andrew Furuseth - were all given mandatory psych evals. No clue what the truth is about this experiment - it's as hosed as the JFK assassination with myths, lies and BS. QUOTE Morris Jessup and Carlos Miguel Allende In 1955, Morris K. Jessup, an amateur astronomer and former graduate-level researcher, published The Case for the UFO, an examination of the phenomenon of UFOs which contained some theorizing about the means of propulsion that flying-saucer-style UFOs might use. Jessup speculated that anti-gravity and/or electromagnetism may have been responsible for the observed flight behavior of UFOs. He lamented, both in the book and the publicity tour which followed, that space flight research was concentrated in the area of rocketry, and that little attention was paid to these other theoretical means of flight, which he felt would ultimately be more fruitful." I am in total agreement with you here, Lee. I was one who was a believer in UFO's of an alien origin, in my younger days, but as I watched technology unfold, and observed how the gov. classifies information regarding its "secret projects, my ideas matured considerably over time. I have read two books with the name or word, "Majestic" in their title. One was by Walter Schreiber, of what I consider to be the fantasy genre, and the other was written by a physicist, whose name escapes me at the moment. The latter dealt with the actual physics of flight and ascent [vertical, by means other than rocket propulsion]. I could better understand the necessity for "ultra" [for lack of better terminology, on my part] classification, due to the inherent risks involved and potential loss of life which might occur with respect to the flight testing involved in such a project. How this risk and loss might not come across as entirely palatable to the general public, and therefore, other measures might be better employed for dissuading or discouraging any outside scrutiny on behalf of those involved. Hence, the fabrication of "Roswell" and the subsequent creation of "Project Blue Book," as a means of ultimate deterrence and distraction. And, as I've mentioned in another thread, the majority of the American public were already considered gullible and acquiescent for any story, scam, or pseudo-sci explanation, as witnessed by the reaction elicited with Orson Wells' famous "fantasy" broadcast of the thirties, "War Of The Worlds." You could literally convince the "sheeple" of just about anything, at that time. I even bought it before learning the physical sciences, myself. Then, there was the scare of "Sputnik" in the fall of 1957, which really affected my 12 year old mind, at the time. So, people were primed to accept anything their gov. handed them, or were susceptible to it at least, especially due to the "Red Scare" being perpetrated on them by their own gov.

I wonder if it's possible to document and track the movement of the technology, Geographically, on the basis of these 'sightings' and the disinfo campaigns. Also curious to know if anything similar to the V2 was employed in terms of the project - multiple simultaneous designs by different designers - hence the development in many different locations here in the States. CIA Website material on the matter: https://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/97unclass/ufo.html Interesting. Why wouldn't they be making progress? The old Bob Hope joke - who got the best Nazis out of the deal. Quite a bit of facinating hat and rabbit tricks were being done as the US withdrew from what was to be the Soviet occupied territory. We managed to get as much as possible - couldn't have managed to get all of it. http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/EyesEars_B_CS.html - lee ********************************************************** I'm not sure how much of this is on the level, but I came across this, yesterday. Recap Aerial Revelations John Lear, a Lockheed L-1011 Captain, known for his revelations about aerial phenomena and UFOs, caught up with Art for the full 4-hour broadcast. Related Articles John Lear's Disclosure Briefing As presented on the 11/2/03 show: Art Bell: Let's say the government chose me. They were going to use me as an outlet to release this information. Let's just say they did that and they took me to a briefing. Then what John? John Lear: They whisk you to Washington, DC, you get limo-ed to this building, beautiful building, you go up into this room. They say, 'Art, you're the guy and if you give us the go ahead, we are gonna release everything we know to the public. If you decide to go ahead, all major networks will be provided with information on all aspects of the cover up and no type of information will be withheld. Because of the deal for immunity for all participants of the cover up provides that nothing, no artifacts, no piece of information be withheld.' So here's what happened, Art. We'll use some videos and stills. Our first UFO recoveries were in the late '30s. We made a couple in the beginning of the '40s and then came Roswell, which the public found out about. We got 2 live aliens from Roswell. One died shortly there after and one lived till 1956. And we found out so far there are 18 different alien species that we know about monitoring Earth. Some are good and some are hostile, most are indifferent. We found out that we are the experimental product, if you will, of an alien race who we never met and we don't know who they are. All we know is that the Greys are cybernetic organisms, glorified robots if you will, who work here at the behest of their employers monitoring us through abductions. We were never able to find out what the experiment is all about except that we have been externally corrected about 65 times. And they, the aliens, refer to us as "Containers." There's been speculation that the souls our bodies contain is the reason for the experiments. But nothing's been proven or determined. Since 1938 we've lost over 200 aircraft due to UFO hostilities and thousands of soldiers in all kinds of different actions with aliens. Since that time several hundred thousand civilians have disappeared with no trace. Several thousand of those were eliminated by us because of their chance encounters with the aliens which we could ill afford to have publicized. A slightly more frightening phenomena known as "human mutilations" have occurred on a regular basis and are similar to "cattle mutilations". In that the human or humans are taken from the street, so to speak, and returned to the same area about 45 minutes to an hour later with their rectums cored out, their genitals removed, eyes removed from their sockets, and completely drained of blood. In all cases it appeared that the mutilation procedures occurred while the persons were still alive and conscious. One of our scientists speculates that apparently the human specimens had to be alive for the samples to be worth anything. Abductions occur on a daily basis throughout the United States to at least 10% of the population. When we were first made aware this we protested to the little grey being we had held in captivity at the YY-2 facility in Los Alamos, but a deal was struck that in exchange for advanced technology from the aliens we would allow them to abduct a very small number of persons and we would periodically be given a list of those persons abducted. We got something less than the technology we bargained for and found the abductions exceeded by a million fold than what we had naively agreed to. In 1954, President Eisenhower met with a representative of another alien species at Muroc Test Center, which is now called Edwards Airforce Base. This alien suggested that they could help us get rid of the Greys but Eisenhower turned down their offer because they offered no technology. At this point it became apparent to all involved that there was no such thing as a God, at least how the public perceives God. Certainly some form of computer recorder stores information and an occasional miracle is displayed by the aliens to influence a religious event. This so unnerved Eisenhower that he had "In God We Trust" put on paper money and coins and put in the Pledge of Allegiance to reaffirm the public belief in God. Shortly after this it was determined in meetings between the US and the Russians that the situation was serious enough that a cold war should be manufactured as a ruse to divert attention of the public away from UFOs towards some other scary threat like the H-bomb. It was also decided to keep the ruse secret from any elected or appointed officials within both the US and Russian governments as it took so long to vet these officials and the ruse was easier to manage if the top people didn't know about it. In the late 1950's NASA was formed to compartmentalize, containerize, and sanitize information from all space platforms and vehicles. We sold NASA to the public claiming that all information would belong to them but they got very little and even that was highly sanitized. Our first efforts were to keep the public from learning about Venus. A very similar planet to Earth and it's population is very similar to us just technologically advanced. We have learned a lot from them starting with the Russian Venera 1 and US Mariner 2, we made Venus look like a lead melting, volcanic surface, spewing sulfuric acid into a pressurized atmosphere 90 times that of Earth. And as often the case we over did it and we wondered why nobody asked how a parachute survived a descent into 800-degree air. We set up operations in Pine Gap, Australia to preclude any prying eyes figuring out what we were up to. We regularly eliminated through extreme prejudice anybody who was part of the operation and made the least little tiny threat about disclosure or dissatisfaction with the operation. Any space mission that included Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, Mariner, Voyager, Clementine, and all the rest. All data initially came transmitted to Pine Gap then it was relayed to JPL or wherever after sanitizing. We had a little trouble with amateur radio operators but we figured out how they could intercept these signals but we managed to deal with that. When the Russian threat began to fade we introduced Vietnam which kept the public occupied for over ten years. The cover up and personnel to run the operation began to get bigger and bigger and required more and more money. We were forced to inflate the defense budget, which soon not enough. Then we got into the drug business which was still not enough. We were the ones that looted the savings and loan industry and Wall Street to boot. It is so out of control now most people want immunity and want out. But there is so much secrecy and so many double and triple blinds in place that it's unlikely that this thing can ever be dismantled. And even if you give us the go ahead to spill the beans to the public it's unlikely they will get anything more than "yes, we recovered a flying saucer and yes, there was an occupant" but that's all we're gonna tell ya. So go ahead and roll the tape for Mr. Bell. What you see here are what human mutilations look like. That one was a male about 27 years old. That one is film of dead aliens being pulled from the wreckage of a craft that crashed in Olancha, California in the '50s. That craft you see over there was over 250ft. in diameter and had to be buried on the spot. That site is in Utah near Dugway Proving Grounds. The object you're looking at now is the as the Kecksburg Acorn which was brought to Wright Patt in the middle '60s. There's Frank Drake trying to force information out of a being tied down to a stretcher. He was supposedly from Tao Ceti. These pictures you're looking at now are structures on the Moon. That's the tower in Sinus Medii and it's over seven miles tall. And that thing over there is what we call the Colossus of Oguram(sp) in Mare Crisium. We don't know what it does but the machine itself is bigger than Brooklyn, New York. Now those are videos of the domes covering the craters. As you can see, some are in a very advanced state of decay. These are 5 second slides of the 18 different alien species we are looking at. That one there is the most gruesome looking. The guards at one facility are carefully indoctrinated over several months being shown pictures similar to but not exactly like the alien. Only when he'd been acclimatized, so to speak, of the horrible looking beings are they allowed to stand in security positions. Before these acclimatizations were done, we had two guards die of a heart attack as the aliens came down the hallway unexpectedly. And this last clip is of the Kennedy assassination. You've heard of the second gunman theory? Well, this is the second camera that recorded exactly what happened and we had 4 gunmen. And the bottom line was that Kennedy had to go. He insisted on releasing what little alien information we had told him about and he was trying to withdraw troops from Vietnam which we were using as a diversion for the public. After Kennedy we never told any President anything. Nixon knew because he was briefed as VP in 1952. That's how we knew where to take Jackie Gleason to Homestead Air Force Base to see the alien bodies we had in storage there.[Nixon and Gleason were neighbors and buddies at the time, in Florida. My emphasis, here. TM] And that's about it. What say you Art Bell? Do we brief the public? Yay or nay?" --Special thanks to "Spaceprophet" of Fantastic Forum who provided this transcription. Here are the web links that John Lear provided in support of his data: projectredstar.com Project Grudge/Bluebook 13 rumormillnews.com vgl.org keithlaney.com lunaranomalies.com astrosurf.com

The Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982 imposes criminal penalties on those who have authorized access to classified information and intentionally disclose names of "covert agents." Those who do not have authorized access to classified information--- such as journalists,etc.---may be subject to penalties if they engage in a "pattern of activities intended to identify and expose covert agents...with reason to believe that such activities would impair or impede the foreign intelligence activities of the United States." ************************************************************** ""The Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982 imposes criminal penalties on those who have authorized access to classified information and intentionally disclose names of "covert agents." Those who do not have authorized access to classified information--- such as journalists,etc.---may be subject to penalties if they engage in a "pattern of activities intended to identify and expose covert agents...with reason to believe that such activities would impair or impede the foreign intelligence activities of the United States."" Now who do we have to thank for that little piece of legislation? Carter or Reagan? And if by chance it was the latter, it sure came in handy to Karl Rove now, didn't it? When are the criminal penalties going to be imposed upon him? Sorry to bring that up, but it merely jumped off the page at me, and gave me pause to think. ______________________________________________ John, on what page of the forum do I go to update my bio? Also, if you got those pictures Dawn sent to you, could you please cut out my head on one of them and replace my present picture [which is now 3 years old] with a new one, like you did for me when I first joined the forum? Thanks, Terry.

I think Myra is right that this Forum is an easy place [there are a few others] to make an interesting list of those interested in the truth of Dallas [and the Secret Government(s) around the world and their actions, generally] - and to learn our interests, biases and thoughts. I'd only add that even were we to use false names we would only be fooling the others on the Forum....but the NSA and other such would be able to put together exactly who was whom, sadly...such is the state of the black 'arts'. So, we are all 'outed' - even those of you using false names. That being said, I can see where someone would be concerned that entry to this Forum [or at least this and related parts of it] could 'reward' them with attention they would not otherwise have upon themselves.I think, however, that the xyz people have a lot on their 'plates' and don't take action on thoughts or speculation so much....it is when one tries to put thoughts into citizen action or making a new connection, reveal a new player, etc. that things usually start to get 'strange'. And, maybe they will learn something about morality....and how they are regarded by some who see their actions - for their lack of it. **************************************************************** "were we to use false names we would only be fooling the others on the Forum....but the NSA and other such would be able to put together exactly who was whom, sadly...such is the state of the black 'arts'." Not to mention the ability to track your IP address. Anybody can be found, even if you're posting from a cyber-cafe, hotel, or pull up outside of somebody's house with a wireless and interface with their DSL connection. And if you think about it, the former "black arts" [as you refer to the technology] utilized by the military in Vietnam and the Persian Gulf is what you're presently being able to connect to the web and to this forum via. Last week I witnessed a new form of communication device that was a phone, computer, mini-cam, and GPS locater with realtime capabilities. You could hone into any IP address or phone number, and track them via a google-earth-type gridmap that made mapQuest look like a cartoon. This woman could see her boyfriend's truck parked outside of the place he was calling her from. You can run, but you can't hide...

***************************************************************** Wow, thanks to both you and J.J., Billy. Wish me and Dawnie could've made it up there this year, from down here in Austin, but United Airlines totally screwed my flight plans out of LAX on the 21st, with eight LAPD K9 Bomb Squad cars lined up in front United Airlines terminal causing my ride to have to drop me off further on down at the next carrier. Then my flight was delayed almost 2 hours causing me to miss my connection out of Denver. So, I hauled my ass out of there and back to Culver City, after canceling the flight. Dawn's husband Erik, was able to find ONE flight left on American Airlines ticket available at the last minute, for 08:00 departure to Dallas and on to Austin, the morning of the 22nd. Funny thing, though. Something blew out on the plane on take-off from LAX, with this acrid smell of burning rubber lasting half-way through the flight. They said it was a dirty air-conditioning filter. Hmmm... But, at least A.A. was much more accommodating than the beleaguered U.A., seeing as that they had us on another plane that touched down at the same time as our crippled ship, and they boarded us, without even cleaning the trash from the previous occupants. Our whole flight crew from the "supposedly" blown out A.C. filter's ship, along with the remaining passengers, boarded and we were in Austin faster than you could fly from L.A. to Vegas. So, maybe next year the two of us will get to invade Dallas and Dealey Plaza, finally. Scott Myers is on his way down from Garland tomorrow, after work. Actually, we're gathering here to put down some tracks for Dawnie, who happens to be a musician/singer/songwriter, Scott is an accomplished horn man and keyboardist, and I'm a back-up vocalist, percussionist. So, there are other talents besides being an attorney [Dawn], a nuclear medicine tech [Terry], and computer systems analyst [scott], in our repetoire of life. Well, I'm going to turn Dawnie's rig back over to her. Have a HAPPY THANKGSGIVING to all my compatriots, FWIW. And, you guys have a great time up there in Big "D." Ter

*************************************************************** Purely speculation on my part, but according to the major wounds on the body, the ones that disabled JFK, setting him up for the head shot, Hemming and/or Robertson from Houston and Main, and Wilson on the Grassy Knoll, dealing the final, fatal blow. The fleshette, that entered the throat area, between the cricoid cartilage and the suprasternal notch, if it was indeed a fleshette melting upon being exposed to 98.6 degree body temperature, and purported to have had poisonous or paralysis capabilities, would have come from Santiago or Hargraves, with the umbrella not so much as the firing device, but as a distractive diversionary tactic for the deployment of the fleshette by a smaller caliber [as witnessed by the size of the wound, and described by the Parkland physicians], weapon. Terry Mauro replying from Dawn Meredith's rig. *************************************************************** Now I'm logged on under my own name. Just so it doesn't lead folks to think that I'm speaking on behalf of Dawnie.

********************************************************** "But he didn't grasp the true scope and depths of the evil he was dealing with in terms of Nixon, Dulles brothers, CIA, Prescott Bush, etc. And the U-2 episode was the eye-opener, but it was too late." But, he apparently did in his final State Of The Union Address, where he warned America and the in-coming Kennedy administration of the Military Industrial Complex. His presidential veto had largely been ignored and overruled by the Chiefs of Staff, and after turning the keys of the White House over to Kennedy, in so many words, advised him to watch his back with regard to the Bay of Pigs operation. This is from the book of William Manchester's, "One Brief Shining Moment." Eisenhower was a West Point career military man, like MacArthur, and the American people trusted him and needed him to be their leader in the decade following WW II. The 50's have often been touted as the most prosperous for the U.S. industrially, with that proverbial "chicken in every pot" everyone longed for during the Great Depression years of the 1930's. Well, that almost became a reality for everyone. FDR's New Deal no doubt helped pave the path for the stability and certainly for the burgeoning middle-class that blossomed during the halcyon days of the 50's and early 60's. Thanks Terry. Well that FDR sure was another tough one to figure. One the one hand he's robbing Japanese Americans of their possesions and locking them up and letting Pearl Harbor happen. On the other hand he's creating super progressive domestic New Deal programs. I don't quite get him. I'm starting to wonder if he was seriously adversely influenced by Churchill. I haven't read a lot about Churchill but I get the strong impression that he never met a war he didn't like, would not rest until he dragged Roosevelt into the war (of course that may have been necessary to save Britian), and was very manipulative. ************************************************************* "Well that FDR sure was another tough one to figure. One the one hand he's robbing Japanese Americans of their possesions and locking them up and letting Pearl Harbor happen. On the other hand he's creating super progressive domestic New Deal programs." I think he was made to bend to the pressures being put on him by a basically W.A.S.P.-ish constituency, which is what the majority rule was back in those days. Remember, if you could have someone like William Randolf Hearst create the Spanish-American War, with banner headlines claiming "REMEMBER THE MAINE," just to sell newspapers, or influence half of the East Coast into believing they were being invaded from outer space by Martians with the "War Of The Worlds" broadcast, look at what you could convince the entire citizenry of the U.S. into doing, especially after what happened at Pearl Harbor. "I don't quite get him. I'm starting to wonder if he was seriously adversely influenced by Churchill. I haven't read a lot about Churchill but I get the strong impression that he never met a war he didn't like, would not rest until he dragged Roosevelt into the war (of course that may have been necessary to save Britian), and was very manipulative." Spot on, as they say in the U.K. "THE END OF THE INNOCENCE" words and music by Don Henley Remember when the days were long And rolled beneath a deep blue sky Didn't have a care in the world With mommy and daddy standing by When happily ever after fails And we've been poisoned by these fairy tales The lawyers dwell on small details Since daddy had to fly But I know a place where we can go That's still untouched by man We'll sit and watch the clouds roll by And the tall grass wave in the wind [chorus] You can lay your head back on the ground And let your hair fall all around me Offer up your best defense But this is the end This is the end...of the innocence Oh beautiful, for spacious skies But now those skies are threatening They're beating plowshares into swords For this tired old man that we elected king Armchair warriors often fail And we've been poisoned by these fairy tales The lawyers clean up all details Since daddy had to lie But I know a place where we can go And wash away this sin We'll sit and watch the clouds roll by And the tall grass waves in the wind [chorus] Just lay your head back on the ground And let your hair spill all around me Offer up your best defense But this is the end This is the end...of the innocence Who knows how long this will last Now we've come so far, so fast But, somewhere back there in the dust That same small town in each of us I need to remember this So baby give me just one kiss And let me take a long last look Before we say good bye [chorus] So, just lay your head back on the ground And let your hair fall all around me Offer up your best defense But this is the end This is the end...of the innocence Wonderful lyrics. Then there's "Simple Song of Freedom" from the great Bob Darin: "... Brother Solzhenitsyn, are you busy? If not, won't you drop this friend a line Tell me if the man who is plowin' up your land Has got the war machine upon his mind? Seven hundred million are ya list'nin’? Most of what you read is made of lies But, speakin’ one to one ain't it everybody's sun To wake to in the mornin’ when we rise? ..." ********************************************************************* Yes, there were those special folks with a social and political conscience, who expressed it in their music once-upon-a- time, back then. I always found this simple line from one of CSNY's albums, released around the time of "Four Dead In Ohio" [i believe], to be most poignant. Sung a capella, with no instrumental accompaniment. "FIND THE COST OF FREEDOM" To find the cost of freedom, It's buried in the ground. Mother Earth will swallow you, Lay your body down. I should make it clear that I am quoting Jonathan Kwitny, Endless Enemies, 1984 (page 178). However, that is not to say I disagree with Kwitny. His early death denied us a brave investigative reporter. I highly recommend all of his books. *************************************************************** "I should make it clear that I am quoting Jonathan Kwitny, Endless Enemies, 1984 (page 178). However, that is not to say I disagree with Kwitny. His early death denied us a brave investigative reporter. I highly recommend all of his books." Thanks for clarifying that, John. It's always best to appear unbiased, to a certain degree, when presenting information. I've been watching the late night "journalism" classes being presented as distance learning modules, on PBS. They even get down to how to present numbers, say like 5 versus five, and in what context of the story you're supposed to use which. Very interesting.

*********************************************************** "Has anybody stopped to think that from 1953 until 1977, the man in charge of U.S. foreign policy had been on the Rockefeller family payroll? And that from 1961 until 1977, he (meaning Rusk and Kissinger) was beholden to the Rockefellers for his very solvency?" Well, hell's bells, John! You're a guy after my own heart! I'm so glad there's someone else besides me pointing the finger in the direction that it truly belongs. You know, folks can analyze a film, snapshot, bullet trajectory, head wounds, etc. til the cows come home. But, when you come right down to it, it goes above and beyond the mundane details of the physical aspects of the kill. You want oil men? Well, who's the grand- daddy of them all? You need a huge amount of collateral to cover your bases, your losses, your asses, as well as your trail? You got it! And, where might that financial house, that's going to be able to handle the job in the most expedient way, be located? It's the connecting of the dots, in the right direction, and IMHO, the yellow brick cobblestone road that always leads back to Nassau Street, NYC.

********************************************************** "But he didn't grasp the true scope and depths of the evil he was dealing with in terms of Nixon, Dulles brothers, CIA, Prescott Bush, etc. And the U-2 episode was the eye-opener, but it was too late." But, he apparently did in his final State Of The Union Address, where he warned America and the in-coming Kennedy administration of the Military Industrial Complex. His presidential veto had largely been ignored and overruled by the Chiefs of Staff, and after turning the keys of the White House over to Kennedy, in so many words, advised him to watch his back with regard to the Bay of Pigs operation. This is from the book of William Manchester's, "One Brief Shining Moment." Eisenhower was a West Point career military man, like MacArthur, and the American people trusted him and needed him to be their leader in the decade following WW II. The 50's have often been touted as the most prosperous for the U.S. industrially, with that proverbial "chicken in every pot" everyone longed for during the Great Depression years of the 1930's. Well, that almost became a reality for everyone. FDR's New Deal no doubt helped pave the path for the stability and certainly for the burgeoning middle-class that blossomed during the halcyon days of the 50's and early 60's. Thanks Terry. Well that FDR sure was another tough one to figure. One the one hand he's robbing Japanese Americans of their possesions and locking them up and letting Pearl Harbor happen. On the other hand he's creating super progressive domestic New Deal programs. I don't quite get him. I'm starting to wonder if he was seriously adversely influenced by Churchill. I haven't read a lot about Churchill but I get the strong impression that he never met a war he didn't like, would not rest until he dragged Roosevelt into the war (of course that may have been necessary to save Britian), and was very manipulative. ************************************************************* "Well that FDR sure was another tough one to figure. One the one hand he's robbing Japanese Americans of their possesions and locking them up and letting Pearl Harbor happen. On the other hand he's creating super progressive domestic New Deal programs." I think he was made to bend to the pressures being put on him by a basically W.A.S.P.-ish constituency, which is what the majority rule was back in those days. Remember, if you could have someone like William Randolf Hearst create the Spanish-American War, with banner headlines claiming "REMEMBER THE MAINE," just to sell newspapers, or influence half of the East Coast into believing they were being invaded from outer space by Martians with the "War Of The Worlds" broadcast, look at what you could convince the entire citizenry of the U.S. into doing, especially after what happened at Pearl Harbor. "I don't quite get him. I'm starting to wonder if he was seriously adversely influenced by Churchill. I haven't read a lot about Churchill but I get the strong impression that he never met a war he didn't like, would not rest until he dragged Roosevelt into the war (of course that may have been necessary to save Britian), and was very manipulative." Spot on, as they say in the U.K. "THE END OF THE INNOCENCE" words and music by Don Henley Remember when the days were long And rolled beneath a deep blue sky Didn't have a care in the world With mommy and daddy standing by When happily ever after fails And we've been poisoned by these fairy tales The lawyers dwell on small details Since daddy had to fly But I know a place where we can go That's still untouched by man We'll sit and watch the clouds roll by And the tall grass wave in the wind [chorus] You can lay your head back on the ground And let your hair fall all around me Offer up your best defense But this is the end This is the end...of the innocence Oh beautiful, for spacious skies But now those skies are threatening They're beating plowshares into swords For this tired old man that we elected king Armchair warriors often fail And we've been poisoned by these fairy tales The lawyers clean up all details Since daddy had to lie But I know a place where we can go And wash away this sin We'll sit and watch the clouds roll by And the tall grass waves in the wind [chorus] Just lay your head back on the ground And let your hair spill all around me Offer up your best defense But this is the end This is the end...of the innocence Who knows how long this will last Now we've come so far, so fast But, somewhere back there in the dust That same small town in each of us I need to remember this So baby give me just one kiss And let me take a long last look Before we say good bye [chorus] So, just lay your head back on the ground And let your hair fall all around me Offer up your best defense But this is the end This is the end...of the innocence

*************************************************** Talk about sweeping it under the rug, ala Gary Webb style! Case closed. Don't bother the family. Leave them with what's left of their lives intact, maybe with a little retainer to get them through the rough spots. Keep them financially secure so they won't ask any questions, and we won't have to pursue it any further. Everyone wins. Everyone's satisfied with a job well done.