Charles Black

When considering the mechanical inventions and accomplishments which occurred during the 20th century alone, I do not understand how "anyone" could state that there are mechanical functions, which are not contrary to the basic laws of physics, that could not be carried out when confronted by the best brains in the world !

I can imagine someone stating in 1906 that "Television" was an impossble theory. Or that the thought of gathering soil samples from the planet Mars was absolutely absurd.

Do we really think that figuring out how to alter a strip of 8mm Kodacolor is beyond the scope of human ingenuity ?

Think about this for a moment ! To me this is "Dark Ages" conjecture !

To my thinking, the "Initial" alteration involved only frame excision. A great deal of time passed before "more" needed to be accomplished.

I, of course, am a most avid believer in film alteration of the Zapruder film as well as possibly some photos. When considering the extremes taken to alter or LOSE other evidence in this investigation,

I feel that it is ridiculously naive to believe that this alteration was not "desirable" and a PRIORITY. These conspirators had access to the most advanced equipment and some of the sharpest minds in the entire world. We must not lose sight that this is the governments primary evidence which establishes shot timing, the number of shots, etc. etc.

Of course, every effort has been made and will continue to be made by those, willingly or not, who are supporting the government position on this matter.

I feel very strongly that modern man, can with enough effort, accomplish "anything" that is not in violation of the laws of the universe. I feel that altering 8mm film is not even "a test" of the caliber of this mechanical ingenuity !

This IMPOSSIBILITY THEORY, is and has been, the major stumbling block to progress in this investigation. If this film has been altered in any way.......the government position completely falls apart. Of course the "non alteration" case cannot be conceded without admitting that there was not only concpiracy.....but conspiracy at the highest levels of U.S. government.

Charlie Black

Allan

Thank you for the apology. No harm done.

I felt all along that our musunderstanding was merely one of semantics.

Charlie Black

Allan

We finally are in agrement about something. You are absolutely correct when you wrote that "...you have no proof that the evidence has been altered or selectively chosen other than your suspicions vis-a-vis the motives of those who investigated the case".

I stated in a previous post to this thread - quote-

"I personally don't know whether or not Pitzer was murdered and very few persons do".

In another post on this thread I stated..."I am unable to accept what has been federally fed us regarding this and hundreds of other matters".

I also stated "....that much evidence in this case has been altered or very selectively chosen".

Frankly Allan, if you do not believe the above statement, we really have nothing that we can logically discuss. When I state "this case", I was referring to the case of the investigation of the assassination of JFK.

You certainly cannot imply that you believe that a truthful conclusion can be reached when the conspirators are charged with the task of uncovering that same conspiracy !

Since I am apparently confused regarding what you question, I cannot provide you with an answer that you seem to seek.

Are you saying that you see nothing sinister about government agencies investigating other government agencies or departments, for a crime, in which the many agencies most likely had jointly conspired ?

Please do not interpret, as you did in an earlier statemnt, that I am not in favor of full use of any information that can be acquired thru the FOIA !

All that I have stated is that I (only myself), do not believe that any agency which had a hand in this coup d' etat, is going to make the mistake of providing researchers with information that would send themselves and their cohorts to the electric chair. They have had at least 40 years to pour over this "evidence".

Yes ! It is absolutely my "personal" opinion that these persons, most of them quite bright, will not allow a "SLIP" of truly incriminating evidence, which they have for the most part, been in complete control of for 40 or more years.

Believing that this will happen, once again "in my personal opinion", is as likely to happen as is a visit by the "tooth fairy".

Allan. I am not trying to be facetious. I really do not understand what it is, that I have stated, that you seem to have such difficulty with. I don't feel that anything that I have stated is a "new" idea !

What is it that you question ?

Charlie Black

Allan said......"it would seem odd that those ingenious people didn't make the case for suicide more readily acceptible"

It was apparently acceptable enough.....It hasn't been overturned in the past 40 years. Do you really feel that it will be?

Allan asked "What evidence has been altered? What evidence has been selectively chosen ?"

Allan who conducted this investigation? If this is a part of the assassination cover up, which it very well may be, you have asked a very answerable question. This "investigation" was controlled by those same agencies of government which did the investigation for the Warren Commission. Did you expect that the government would announce that Cmdr. Pitzer was murdered because he had access to information that would cause a major conflict with

the findings of the Warren Commission?

Allan, I do not understand your objection to what I feel is sound reasoning ! I don't feel that there was anything confusing or unreasonable regarding my ideas. Are you stating that you are such an "ingenious" intellect that your thoughts are to be treasured above all others ?

I strongly believe and will continue to support all that I have commented on regarding this subject.

Your responses to me are indicative that you look upon my ideas as if I were a misguided student that should "join the flock" ! Please do not wait too long for my "flock" application !

Charlie Black

Hello Allan

No, I don't think that we should set aside all FOIA material as necessarily being erroneous. But I don't think that we should accept, at face value, that the information is true and untampered, just because it was once "classified" and was obtained from the National Archives.

I feel, as probably do you, along with many others, that much evidence in this case has been altered or "very selectively chosen". I therefore strongly believe that any results of what are "government investigations", should be very closely scrutinized. The Warren Report was based solely on government investigation and the very selective testimony of some very selective witnesses. Even so there has been much evidence that witness testimony was altered and did not express the correct statement of the witnesses.

IMHO this is certainly NOT a clear case of suicide.

It is based on a government investigation of a potentially disastrous ( to the government's position ) matter, that may, were the true facts known, have debunked the conclusions of the official report regarding the assassination of JFK!

I personally don't know whether or not Pitzer was murdered and very few persons do. I have merely pointed out that, im my personal opinion, there will be very little that will be allowed release by the Feds if it is "strongly" likely to shed any compelling light on any but the govrernment's 43 year old conclusions. The government had appx 30 years prior to the FOIA, to peruse, redact, or change "evidence". They now have had 43 years. I don't think that very much that can drastically change the Warren conclusions will be allowed to slip out.

In this case I believe, who I consider to be "the enemy", to be comprised of some very bright and ingenous people, who have had unlimited resources and more than sufficient time, to not "self destruct", by releasing important information that is not in their best interest. We receive "tid bits" as tokens to pacify us !

This is my personal opinion only and we all shall believe what we must !

Charlie Black

Hello Richard

Having just again read Eaglesham's work, it doesn't IMHO, bring me any closer to closure on this matter.

With what I have studied and observed, I place very little confidence in the report of a government agency investigating itself. We can know nothing more regarding this than studying reports and photos that the government has "chosen" to make public. We are looking at their photos and their conclusions regarding the evidence. We can in no way reconstruct what may have been the "true" crime scene nor can we determine if reports have been falsified. If there was in fact "foul play", it is certainly natural to assume that the government tried to do what it is best at....covering its ass.

Perhaps I have become super paranoid regarding all areas of this JFK case. I take as "factual" almost nothing that the agencies of intelligence, the federal government and the U.S. Military, have put forth for public consumption.

This was a very unusual event, involving someone who is believed to have had access to some very incriminating evidence. His death could be as desirable to some factions as the deaths of Roselli, Giancanna, Ruby, de Morenschildt and a bagful of others that I feel were silenced by elements of the U.S. government.

I am unable to accept what has been federally fed us, regarding this and literally hundreds of other matters. There is too much smoke and far too many mirrors, for any reasonable person to consider even remotely possible or acceptable. Coincidences should be accepted as unusual....not the norm.

I personally feel, that if Cmdr. Pitzer had the photographic evidence which he is claimed to have had, that he was certainly murdered. Regardless if there were fifty "government" investigations that conclude the contrary !

Charlie Black

This subject of Pitzer filming the autopsy has confounded me appreciably since I first heard of it. Tho I have never placed much confidence in the declarations of Lt. Col. Marvin, I do hold Jerrol Custer in pretty high esteem.

There are several questions that I cannot reasonably resolve in my thinking. If Pitzer truly filmed the autopsy, it is apparent that it was done covertly since there is no reference to such a filming in the following investigations. However, the term "covertly" does not necessarily mean that it was a disguised occurrence which was conducted by Cmdr. Pitzer with no knowlege of the Bethesda staff. It may have been covertly ordered by Bethesda....OR, as I have never heard it mentioned before.....Pitzer may have been covertly involved with the ONI or some other intelligence agency.

The reason that I have considered the affiliation of Pitzer with intelligence agencies is, in my mind at least, not unfounded. If Pitzer had secretly conducted this filming, it would have been such a major breach of his position and authority, that I doubt seriously that he would have kept this film and worked on it at the Bethesda facility. Much less also, is the possibility that he would have been willing to share this "treasure trove" with an enlisted Navy man....particularly while on the Naval Base. We must remember that Pitzer's death occurred well after books and research had suggested that JFK's death was the result of a conspiracy. This info would have been classified higher than "Top Secret" ! It would most likely not have been left in Pitzer's posession, nor would it even have been stored at a government facility. The intelligence agencies had withn their ranks, "experts" more highly qualified than Pitzer.

In the same light, Pitzer, if having of his own initiative, secretly filmed this autopsy, he "most certainly" would not have kept this film on base and shared the information with other Navy personnel. This is information which was strategic enough to have brought this government down at the height of the cold war.

I therefore must conclude that Jerrol Custer was in error regarding "what he actually was shown". I feel, however, that it is possible, that Cmdr. Pitzer may have had in his posession, by unauthorized means, copies of autopsy "photographs" that were intended to be either hidden or disposed.

This is strictly conjecture, but I feel that his posession of such materials were significantly related to his death. Perhaps on the day of his death, he may have turned over, or "SOLD" these photos to a government agent. It is possible that if the government agents believed that they had acquired ALL that Pitzer posessed....he was then terminated.

As I previously stated, this is strictly "my speculation" and is backed by no evidence that I have seen.

Charlie Black

David

I do not intentionally wish to be harsh. But since you insist on persisting, it is obvious to the members of this forum who have considerable shooting experience, and who have studied ballstics and the ballistic characteristics of the MC ammo in question, that you don't understand what you you are talking about. The result of your continuing this subject will tend to confuse those who would truly like to learn of the characteristics and behavior of this MC rifle and its FMJ ammo.

What you personally believe matters little to me once you have been offered the facts. However, it is not in the best interest of persons unfamiliar to the subject, to possibly accept, as fact, your erroneous interpretations of 6.5mm., fully jacketed Manlicher Carcano ammunition.

Many forum members who are unfamiliar with a technical subject, have a tendency to accept what they read on this forum, even if the poster may have less knowlege than they themselves do.

Rather than arguing, the effort of a little further study of this subject, should clarify the issue for you.

Charlie Black

If a jacketed bullet gets slowed down - like hitting a tree branch - the lead in the bullet has the same amount forward velocity and is much heavier, than the case. The "unit" (bullet and casing) will then come apart. The lead bullet (which has not had to deal with inital friction)...will blow past the casing. The casing will come apart and be a low velocity mess.

Hello David

Tho I agree with some of your reasoning, I being an avid shooter, strongly disagree with your last statement. A military fully jacketed bullet should not come apart and shed it's metal "jacket"

whether it impacts a small tree branch or a heavy human bone.

That is the purpose of the jacketing and the reason that metal jacketed bullets are the only bullets that are acceptable for use in war by the accords

of the Geneva convention. The use of fragmenting or bullets having other than a "full metal jacket" constitute a war crime.

However since those participating in this assassination were not soldiers firing weapons in "warfare", it is highly likely that lead or some type of frangible bullet would have been used in order to inflict maximum wound damage on the target.

Charlie Black

Hello John

Thanks for the explanation. I, per usual, remain confused.

Charlie Black

Since we are speculating, why are we certain that Tippit's murder is, by necessity, linked to the assassination of JFK ? This is certainly a tangent that has kept many bright minds busy and confused for 43 years.

Perhaps it could very well have been a personal matter, one that in no way involved the assassination, but ocurred, at a related time in a possibly related area.

Since we are speculating, I would like to throw in one of my speculations that I am of course unable to substantiate with fact or documentation.

I do not believe that LHO, who obviously had developed "street savvy", would have been foolish enough to return to his home when he probably realized that he had been "Patsied", in the Dealey Plaza event, and very likely was being sought as a suspect.

There is only one witness to Oswald entering his rooming house. I do not feel that Oswald kept his pistol hidden in such an "unsecured" location. I feel that he retrieved his pistol from the Paine garage, when it began, for some reason, to dawn on him, that he was involved in a "something" that was over his head and very scary.

I will continue to speculate that only Wes Frazier and sister Linnie Mae reported Oswald as having a "paper package". NO ONE saw Oswald approach or enter the TSBD carrying any "package". I propose that Wes Frazier was a one time intelligence asset.

Since I now have set the stage for a little more of my possible paranoia, I might as well continue.

I feel that when Oswald stated during his police interview, that he "did not" own a rifle....he was telling the truth. I feel that at some time prior to the assassination, the conspirators, approached Oswald thru one of their "minor assets", possibly Wes Frazier, to make an offer to purchase his rifle at a somewhat elevated price. An offer that Oz could not refuse ! The rifle was placed (hidden) somewhere in the TSBD prior to the assassination date.

I think that the curtain rod story set forth only by Wes and his Sister involved them in a small but very important aspect of this plot. They probably had no idea of why the authorities were using them to establish this scenario, and were later in fear for their lives if they departed from this set up.

There was NO PACKAGE. Wes goofed up while trying to explain the "length" of a package that never existed.

Now for my bigger speculation ! I believe that Wes Fraziers job was to lure Oswald to the Paine house.

He could have done this by telling Oz that Marina for several weeks was having a male visitor every Thursday night. Perhaps this visitor was hinted to be James Hosty. Perhaps this is what prompted the Oswald/Hosty "note" at the FBI office two weeks prior.

Oswald visited Marina....of course NO agent Hosty!

Since, as I mentioned earlier, Oz new that he was involved in "some kind of intelligence action", tho he knew not what....he was worried. He retrieved his pistol from the Paine garage and had it with him on the morning of 11/22.

In my paranoid speculations, Wes Frazier was a very small but most important "cog" in the plan.

Just think....If LHO had died of a heart attack on the day before the assssination....very little need be changed. A bill of sale would turn up that would "prove" beyond any doubt that Wes had bought this rifle from his co-worker and that it was Wes that had shot the President !

Well.....since my delusions are beginning to fade away, I will return to my straight jacket !

Charlie Black

I, in no way understand this thread! Are you speaking of Oswald wanting cutains for a previous address?

If Oswald had wanted curtains for his room, why would they have been delivered to the Paine Residence and not his rooming house.

If we are not talking about Lee's actions on 11/22/63.....why are we discussing this?

Charlie Black

Hello Stephen

Day was a person whose job was to work with and in crime scenes. He was not a novice. I have heard attempts at excusing his actions by relating that this occurred over 40 years ago. These practices would have been unacceptable on a "Jack the Ripper" crime scene investigation.

I find nearly all of his actions suspect !

Charlie Black

Sorry folks. I "double posted" !

Charlie Black

Hello Stephen

I tend to disagree with you on one major aspect of

the assassination.....that being the roles of JBJ and JEH !

I place absolutely no value in "any" recorded conversations of LBJ and JEH. These conversations were not covertly recorded. They absolutely knew their words were being recorded, therefore they can be considered as having no more true validity than a pre-scripted "announcement". They knew what was being recorded and what message that that they were sending. It was after the fact "propaganda" and a part of the cover.

Since I believe the occurrance in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63, to be nothing less than a fully orchestrated Coup d' Etat, which of course insured who and what was to be the new leadership, I feel it very naive to even suggest that the new leadership which was necessary to provide the cover up, was not the MOST important part of the original planning.

Why change a government unless you are "fully assured" of what will follow. The new order would not have been left to chance. The conspiracy was for the reason of satisfying certain monetary, personal and military interests which could only be assured with the REMOVAL of JFK and his REPLACEMENT

by successors with those same exact interests.

Besides this, I don't feel that it would have been at all difficult to enlist the support of JEH and LBJ since they were both "assured" of losing much if JFK were re-elected in 1964. The re-election of Kennedy assured at least their political and public deaths....and possibly much more.

I feel therefore that the words and actions of both JFK and LBJ were "nesessarily" pre scripted. They were, in my absolute opinion, the most important aspects of the Coup. The were not merely cogs in a gear....they were the non slip axle upon which everything else was dependent.

Without the support of JEH and LBJ, the only guaranteed success would have been a military coup with the establishment of immediate martial law.

This type of U.S. unrest would have very likely led to Soviet agression against the "severely weakened" United States.

The Coup was planned to "advance" certain interests. Not to plunge the U.S. into any type of conflict that would DENY those interests.

AS far as two separate plans...I disagree ! IMHO, the "getaway" car is a part of an overall plan of the bank robbery. NOTHING is left to Chance !

Charlie Black

ROBERT

Thank you. I'll give it a try.

Charlie Black

Hello all

From where is this DVD available ? I don't even recall it having been before mentioned.

Would appreciate this info as I am very interested.

Charlie Black

Tom

Please do not attempt to impress me with your FBI acquaintences or your limited understanding of ballistics. You are truly playing with the wrong opponent.

As I have chosen to participate in only a very few forums, and in a limited, and not an occupational manner, I do so for only two reasons. Enjoyment and education ! Since it is obvious that I will receive neither from you, I have chosen to block you out of my participation.

Tom....have you ever considered spending less time

on these forums and a little more time toward creating a life for yourself ?

With you....I am forever through !

Charlie Black

Tom

YOUR opinion of what I do or do not know regarding the JFK assassination probably means as little to the other members of the forum as it does to me !

I also don't need your interpretation of the word "analyst" because "I ARE ONE" !

I just find your posts on this subject today as boring as your previous posts on your "twig theory" and your ridiculous "insight" into the Old South social structure. It seems that you know very little of anything that can be scientifically tested ! I don't feel that most members of this forum appreciate what you feel is a "clever" means of beating around the bush, as an effort to attract interest.

You call it a "game of charades" ? I call it a waste of time, participating in any subject, in which you are active. I am not going into the specifics because I frankly don't care enough, BUT

much of the information "FACTS" that you post are not only inacurate but are purposely misleading.

You consider yourself a weapons guru....anyone who has ever fired an MC rifle KNOWS that it is impossible to reacquire a moving target with this scoped rifle in 2.3 seconds and score a hit without divine intervention ! I could continue with some of your ridiculous claims but I don't feel that you are worth the effort !

Charlie Black

No offense to Purvis because I should have learned long ago, to not enter a Purvis thread unless I have at least one hour to devote to that thread !

Perhaps it is some form of attention deficit disorder, but I usually know little more [and sometimes less], at the end of that hour than when I entered. Sometimes I just get confuseder and confuseder !

Charlie Black

I graduated from College with Batchelor degrees in Politcal Science and Psychology. I was an ROTC graduate and entered he U.S. military immediately . I became disillusioned with the Viet Nam war, and upon my request was honorably discharged in 1970 as a Captain.

I was employed by a major oil company in marketing mamagement. In the early 1980's I left the oil company and went to work in the field of sales management. I retired at the age of 60. My wife is still employed as a Montessori teacher.

I have two grown sons, one grandchild and another which should arrive in time for Christmas.

I have had an extrmeme interest in the JFK assassination for over 40 years. My interest evolved, not so much the result of a personal love for JFK, but a love for truth and the type of government under which I was born.

I feel that the events of 11/22/63 were most definitely a Coup d' Etat and were the results of planning and backing at the highest levels of the U.S. government.

I personally consider myself more an "analyst" than a true rsearcher.

All Members

After reading Mr. Lamson's latest psychological prophiling of several of this forums members, I would feel quite remiss if I did not publicly thank him for the "spiritual awakening" which I experienced as a result of these readings.

It was as if a bright and warm ray of "thanksgiving" overcame me when I realized how blessed I was, to not be forced to view this world in the sorrowful skeptical manner in which this, no doubt "forsaken" individual, has been so cursed.

Since I am experiencing this wonderful feeling, I think that I will leave this forum for the remainder of the weekend. I have promised to take my beautiful little blonde, seven year old Princess Grandaughter fishing, on this beautiful 75 degree sunny Florida afternoon.

Charlie Black

Craig's response to me, quote "you sir are a moron"

is accepted by me and acknowleged as a compliment of the highest order. I will proudly often mention this as an affirmation of my credentials !

My warmest and deepest thanks Craig.

Charlie Black

Craig

You constantly attack Jack White, a man that has selflessly devoted many years toward JFK study, and a man has who has universally well acknowleged photographic expertise. A man that has greatly aided the assassination investigation.

You have done nothing but whine, point fingers and post an unrecognizable photo of yourself on this forum. You must be afraid that someone might recognize you personally !

I feel that you contribute nothing but trouble and confusion and are hiding like a coward in the security of a forum. In my opinion you are a parasite subsisting on others and contribute nothing but your most unpleasant presence.

I think you owe Jack White an apology. I further feel that I soil myself by even replying to the likes of you!

Charlie Black

Craig

If you consider yourself a "man" why are you hiding in the relative security of a forum and not addressing ME PERSONALLY about your problem. At the same time that you complain about me, you should request also that all members photos be notarized, and authenticity dated, as to when the photos were taken. Then we would not have pictures on the forum that are thirty years old and in all practicality "worthless."

I apologize to the remainder of the forum for my outburst, but Craig Lamson has requested that John Simkin remove me from the forum because of my failure to have a photo posted. When I became a member of this forum, a photo was not required. I do not have a scanner and could not post a photo even if I cared to.....which I now don't care to do!

So if nothing more is heard from me, it is because Craig Lamson demanded my dismissal.

Charlie Black mig-15@webtv.net