Ian Lloyd

Who created the false death certificate - the military - Rear Admiral Burkley

I think Burkley actually produced the more honest and accurate certificate and Humes etc al produced a less than honest & accurate certificate. This is why Burkley's remained "hidden".

Quote:

As regards the Cabell's suggesting that no shots had taken place until they had turned into Elm Street conflicts with all the evidence we have. You are taking the evidence of one witness and ignoring all the other evidence. The SBT is based on the idea that both JFK and Connally are wounded at 223/4. Now whether you agree with the theory is irrelevant, what is clear is that by 225 JFK is showing clear signals that he has been wounded. Yet you are suggesting that no shots had been fired by that point and it would be 88 frames until the first shot was fired.

End quote.

Is Robert actually suggesting that no audible shots had been fired at that point and that the first audible shot was at Z313?

James and Ian:

With reference to your mentions of the filming speed of the Zapruder and Nix cameras respectively:

According to p. 13 of the Bell & Howell 414 PD Director Series Manual, Abraham Zapruder's camera was only capable of operating at three speeds - Normal, or 16 frames per second; Slow Motion, or 48 fps; and Animation, or Single Frame. As I understand, the standard for 8mm home movie film was in transition from 16 to 18 fps at around that time, and Zapruder's camera was actually a transition model, capable of operating at the new standard speed. This would be consistent with what the FBI found when they tested the camera - their results indicated that it averaged at 18.3 fps.

The Nix camera only has two settings - Run, and Single Frame. Ian mentions the possibility of the Nix film running at 24 fps - Orville Nix actually told the FBI that he thought the camera speed was "40 frames per second", but I believe that Nix was confusing the camera filming speed with the ASA Film Index Dial, which the Keystone K-810 Instruction Manual says (pp. 3, 8) should be set to "10" rather than "40" when using indoor film outdoors, as Nix was doing. When the FBI tested the camera, they found it was running at an average speed of 18.5 fps.

Hope this is of some help to you both.

Chris Scally.

Thanks for the enlightenment Chris and for correcting me regarding the Nix film - as I said, I was working from a memory of a few years ago. Do you know what fps speeds the Nix camera could run at, or was it only (nominal?) 18fps (or 16?)?

Chris,

before you completely loose me, can we go back a bit. I am spending some time studying this thread.

I follow your point that between 133 and 351 the elapsed time is 9.1 sec. I can verify that on my computer.

The difference in frames is 218.

I agree that if 218 is divided by 18.3 - the acknowledged speed Zapruder was supposed to filming - results in 11.9 seconds. Which is longer than the time counter suggests the frames should last.

That suggests there are frames missing.

11.9 - 9.1 = 2.8 seconds.

2.8 seconds accounts for 52 frames.

I agree that if 218 is divided by 24 - the argued speed Zapruder may have been filming at - results in 9.08 seconds. Which the time monitor states is the exact time for those frames.

So basically you are saying if the camera speed was 24 fps then the frame count matches the time count.

Whereas if the camera was filming at 18,3 fps then the frame count and the time count do not match.

I agree that appears to be the case. But how is that possible? We are talking about the loss of around 52 frames.

The maths may be right, but logically it seems impossible.

James

Addition:-

Can I ask what version of the film you are working with.

I checked some of my copies and realised I am working with the enhanced versions. For example the close up version is a slowed down version. Therefore there are added frames.

Zapruder's original film had 486 frames.

If we subtract the Home movie and motorcycles before JFK then the actual film is 486 - 132 = 354 frames of the assassination.

The total length of that in time is 19.34 seconds.

The strip you are discussing is 133 - 351. That is 218 frames. The time for that ought to be 218/18.3 = 11.9 seconds

Above I was wondering whether there was something suspicious in these two timing values. Now I am not so sure. If a film is captured at 18.3 frames per second and that film has 218 frames then it would be expected to be 11.9 seconds long.

Now I suspect you are going to argue that the real Zapruder film was captured at 24 fps - which the camera had the ability to do - but where is the evidence that Zapruder actually filmed at that speed. If that could be established then I agree there is a serious question to be asked about the Zapruder film. But I do not see the evidence his film was captured at that speed. The present length of the Zapruder film is 486 frames. That is what we would expect for a film captured at 18.3 fps. had the same subject matter been captured at 24fps surely the frame count would be nearer 640 frames.

One further point:-

I see on post 23 that you comment that you can't have 2 films travel the same distance, in the same amount of frames, unless the camera frame rate is the same in both.

I agree. However Zapruder was - we are told - filming at 18.3 fps. Therefore for him that ought to consume 218 frames.

You state that the SS were filming at 24fps. The same amount of information on that film ought to be somewhere in the region of 285 frames.

Is the problem not there?

A few years ago, I was looking into the Zapruder film speed and found a few FBI documents on the MF site relating to this - it transpired that, IIRC, Zapruder had initially said that his camera was set to run at 48fps when filming the JFK motorcade!! The FBI then had him sign a statement to the effect that he was "in error" when he said this and that it was set to run at 16fps as per their investigations (did he also say this in a tv interview? I seem to have a vague memory from somewhere!?!). When I looked further into this, I found the same scenario for Nix - he said his camera was set to run at 24fps but the FBI said it must have also been set to run at 16fps, same as Zapruder's. I corresponded with Gary Mack on the subject via e-mails but he seemed to "agree" with the FBI's version!

Again, please bear in mind that this is from memory from a few years ago but it is the case though the figures may be slightly out (but I don't think they are).

I live in the UK, and am interested in history and engineering.