Jim Hargrove

And, of course, Dave Reitzes specifically disagrees with your conclusion about Alice, TX. Here is his own conclusion from the article you yourself linked: As to an Oswald driving a car, you know, but will not admit, that there is a trainload of evidence for it. Mr. JENNER. You have a distinct recollection that on occasions when this man came into your shop for a haircut, he drove an automobile up to your shop? Mr. SHASTEEN. He drove that there 1955, I think it's a 1955, I'm sure it's a 1955 Chevrolet station wagon. It's either blue and white or green and white it's two-toned--I know that. Now, why I say--why I take it for granted that Mrs. Paine was with him when he come to the grocery store--I do remember he wasn't driving when they would come to the grocery store, there would be a lady driving and I'm assuming that that was Mrs. Paine, because like I say, I have been--I have never been close enough to her and knew it, to speak to her, but she trades at the service station where I do and I saw her in there and I never did pay any attention to her and I saw her passing, met her in the road in the car and those things. (WC X, 317) --------- Mr. LIEBELER. You saw him drive up in the car? Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; because it was all glass in front and I was sitting at the--well, it's the cash stand-- we call it there. Mr. LIEBELER. Which direction was he driving the car at that time? Mrs. WHITWORTH. Driving west on a one-way street--that's a one way there. -------- Of course, a Jack Ruby employee told the FBI an Oswald even drove the car when he accompanied him on an overnight fishing trip, but I'm not going to bother looking it up because you are clearly not here to be convinced.

Thanks, DJ. Obviously, my memory isn't getting any better as I get older.

EYEWITNESSES Mr. Parnell tells us witnesses can’t be trusted, but describes them in a deliberately general way, suggesting that brief, often distant, and usually passing sightings of escaped criminals and such can be compared with the much more detailed encounters I described on the previous page of this thread. A few specifics.... In the Laura Kittrell employment office interviews, both Oswalds provably presented themselves as LHO. Not only did the two men look similar, they identified themselves by the same name during protracted conversations, sometimes providing specific biographical details. In my estimation, this was most likely a deliberate test by the cover-up plotters to see if, during encounters just a few weeks apart, one Oswald could pass for the other on close inspection by a trained interviewer. In the KOPY/Alice, Texas and environs encounters, not only did Stewart and Janca later identify Oswald by sight, but Stewart was able to produce the interview notes he made, which included the name “Lee Oswald.” He said Oswald indicated he had recently returned from Mexico. Oswald left a young child and a woman, who he said “doesn’t speak any English” in the car during his interview. There are more details but…. A total of 17 witnesses, with varying degrees of specificity, placed Oswald, sometimes seen with his “family,” in Alice, Pleasanton, Freer, and a couple of other areas between Dallas and Alice on October 3 and 4th, just as Laura Kittrell and Downtown Dallas YMCA records place him in Dallas on the same two days. Alice is nearly 400 miles south of Dallas. If Mr. Parnell wants to debate this seriously, he should at least read through Chris Courtwright’s piece and look at the supporting documents….. OSWALD IN ALICELAND? A Tale of Two Days; A Tale of Two Oswalds

John, I’m really glad that people like you and DJ and Paul J. and others take the H&L evidence and try to extend it and go beyond (including any corrections needed). John A. told me on several occasions that he hoped this sort of thing would happen and this was one of the main reasons he put all his research online at Baylor University. Surviving reports of Lee in the U.S. while Harvey was in Russia are relatively scarce (the Bolton Ford incident is probably the most famous), and so it is hardly impossible for Lee to have traveled abroad during this period. I tend to doubt U.S. Intel would take the chance of sending Lee to the U.S.S.R. at the same time Harvey was there, but if you find evidence that he did go there, I say go for it and good luck! Your analysis of the New Orleans mug shots is fascinating!

David, This is fascinating. Let’s look at the rightmost photo in the group below. John A. wrote the following about the face shot at the extreme right above. If memory serves, Sandy Larsen did a study juxtaposing and flipping the two halves of that facial image with some fascinating results, but I haven’t been able to find it. Thanks for posting this.

John, I know you understand our position, but just to make sure no readers are confused, John A. and I believe that the man killed by Jack Ruby, the accused assassin of J.D. Tippit and JFK, was indeed in the Soviet Union. Our point is that this man was not born with the name "Lee Harvey Oswald." He assumed (and for a time shared) that identity with the man born as Lee Harvey Oswald.

This is NOT a misinformation campaign, and Mr. Parnell's statement that it is (and the clear inference that I am lying) is against forum rules. From Mr. Gordon's "Terms of Use:" Mr. Parnell seems to believe that all the Harvey and Lee evidence is comprised of mistaken eyewitness observations. That is simply not the case. There is a tremendous amount of evidence based on written documents. For proof, just see the very first page of this very thread. Mr. Parnell never, ever, argues the real evidence. He just claims that someone else, somewhere else, has debunked it. How brave of him!

Will Mr. Bojczuk provide an explanation for the above this time?

As always, Mr. Bojczuk argues with his own mischaracterizations of the evidence for two Oswalds. Pretending to post a link to “Harvey and Lee doctrine," he actually links to Greg Parker’s website, which attempts, mostly unsuccessfully, to debunk H&L. Don’t be fooled by Mr. Bojczuk’s misrepresentations. The real “Harvey and Lee doctrine” is here: HARVEY AND LEE As is often the case, between insults Mr. Bojczuk insists that I do this or that, or that I have only these or those options, or he insists that I answer questions that he already knows the answers to. He knows, for example, that there is substantial evidence that one Oswald as an adult stood 5’9” tall while the other was 5’11” and twenty pounds or so heavier. I have shown him this evidence before, but now he seems unaware of it. In regard to youthful vs. adult appearances, Mr. Bojczuk should know full well that it is often quite easy, for example, to identify images of Holllywood movie stars in their youth because the similarities to their adult appearance, despite all the years of growth, are so striking. He should know this. Let me again ask Mr. Bojczuk to explain the observations of Laura Kittrell and the evidence for two Lee Harvey Oswalds active nearly 400 miles apart on Oct. 3 and 4, 1963. Below is my post from two days ago that Mr. Bojczuk neglected to answer. Will he answer this time?

John, You're referring to the Agency's William Harvey, right? If there is evidence he ran safe houses in and around Oak Cliff, that's news to me. Can you provide any more info?

David, That is interesting, and Vaganov does bear a resemblance to Classic Oswald®, but I don’t see how he could have had the long history going back to elementary school of sharing the LHO identity, or how he could be the man who began setting up Oswald as the patsy in the weeks preceding the assassination. According to Bill Kelly in this Ed Forum thread, Vaganov didn’t even move to Dallas until November 5, 1963, when the effort to set up LHO for the hit was already well underway. For example, one of the many Sports Drome appearances was on October 26. The Statler-Hilton charade was on October 31. The Morgan’s Gun Shop and Downtown Lincoln Mercury appearances were on November 2, still three days before Bill Kelly said Vaganov arrived in Dallas. If Mr Kelly is correct about the arrival date, Vaganov was not our man.

As he usually does, Mr. Bojczuk misrepresents the Harvey and Lee evidence and then argues against his own misrepresentation. Let’s take a look at a couple of little pieces of evidence. Texas Employment Commission employee Laura Kittrell met the two Oswalds in October 1963 and described their similarities and differences on many occasions, including in an 1978 interview with the HSCA’s Gaeton Fonzi. According to Mr. Fonzi, Ms. Kittrell felt the second Oswald she met “looked the same… the same general outline and coloring and build, but there was something so different in his bearing….” Ms. Kittrell made every effort to inform authorities in a timely manner about her encounter with the two Oswalds. As John A. said in a 1997 speech, Ms. Kittrell “gave a thirty-page statement to the U.S. Attorney in Dallas. Her statement was hand carried to the Warren Commission by the Secret Service. But her 30-page statement and subsequent 90-page manuscript in which she discusses her interviews of the two Oswalds, were ultimately ignored and suppressed.” The full 90-page manuscript can be read at the online John Armstrong Collection at Baylor University. Ms. Kittrell interviewed the first Oswald on October 3, 1963, and that night this Oswald apparently stayed at the Downtown Dallas YMCA. Remarkably, on the very same evening Oswald also appeared to numerous witnesses at radio station KOPY in Alice, Texas, nearly 400 miles south of Dallas. This Oswald was told to come back to the radio station the following day, which he did. Some 17 witnesses more or less confirm the visit of this Oswald (some seeing his “family”) to southeast Texas, far from Dallas. It even made the Associated Press. John Armstrong wrote, “Both the FBI and Warren Commission were aware that "Lee Harvey Oswald" could not have been in both Alice, Texas and Dallas, Texas on October 3rd and 4th at the same time. Chief Justice Earl Warren held up publication of the Warren Report until the FBI completed their "investigation" of the incident at Alice, Texas, because of potentially damaging political issues.” [H&L p. 710] For decades, the best write-up on that Alice, Texas incident has been Chris Courtwright’s fine article, Oswald in Aliceland? A Tale of Two Days: A Tale of Two Oswalds

John, You've probably seen this already, but immediately below is a reproduction of the poster Jack White prepared at John A's suggestion called "The Evolution of Lee Harvey Oswald." I copied the printed poster as best I could with a cell phone camera (which seemed to work better than my equally expensive 35mm SLR camera), and it may be a little better than it looks at first. All or most of the captions are easily readable if you download and enlarge the image. Does anything stand out to you? Some more mugshots, hopefully of both Oswalds, appears on the first page of HarveyandLee.net, as shown below. In the images above, according to the available biographical information about each photo, the top row should show American-born LEE Oswald, and the bottom row should be of Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald, although we both know how questionable the photo evidence is. Any thoughts?

To Chris Davidson, The clarity of that .gif is just stunning! Thank you! It really is nice to get definitive answers to questions once in a while around here.

Perhaps, and there is also a question about a pocket flap that may be on the hunter jacket but not CE162. Still, they both look like similar, off-white Eisenhower-style jackets to me.

Robert clearly knew what was going on with the two Oswalds, but I’m not sure I’d call him a conspirator. My guess is that he helped create the identity of the two Oswalds for entirely patriotic reasons: to send a U.S. spy who secretly understood Russian to the USSR. That project didn’t get intertwined in the JFK assassination until 1963. I can’t find the document itself at the moment, but there is a Garrison memo reproduced widely on the net that says, “If you really want to know what I think, it is that Robert Oswald knew this returning defector was not really Lee and this is what Robert's problem was the night of the assassination when he found it necessary to take such a long drive to think things out. He knew things were far more complicated than they appeared on the surface.” Immediately after the hit, my bet is that someone came to Robert with a quite a tale, convincing enough to keep him from telling what he knew for the good of the country. Obviously, this is conjecture.

John, The photo evidence for "Lee Harvey Oswald" drives me crazy, and I'm not good with faces to boot. Nevertheless, the so-called hunter photo you showed is interesting because the jacket American-born LEE Oswald is wearing looks a lot like CE162, the jacket "found" near the Tippit murder scene. As you know, John A. believes American-born LEE Oswald was used to frame Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald.

Thanks for pointing to this interesting article. In an odd coincidence, Classic Oswald® attended Crozier Tech High School in Dallas in January, February, and March 1963 where he took a typing course. He was employed by JCS at the time.

WONDERFUL! Please keep us posted!

John, No, we think that is American-born LEE Oswald, Robert’s natural brother. The photo was supposedly taken by Robert in November 1958 while LEE was on leave from the USMC. At the same time, Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald was stationed at MACS 9 in Santa Ana, CA, where he became friends with Neson Delgado, who said Oswald showed him a copy of Das Kapital and talked continuously about Castro, Cuba, and the Dominican Republic. While on leave, LEE opened up a bank account at the West Side Bank in Fort Worth and listed his address as the Marine Corps Air Station in El Toro, where he was briefly assigned. LEE was at El Toro also at the same time HARVEY was at MACS 9 in Santa Ana. The two installations were just 10 or so miles apart, and some WC members and staff seemed to believe they were the same bases, but they were clearly separate. Despite all this, there’s little doubt that the photographic records in this case have been seriously compromised, as you probably know better than I do.

Chris, That does sound possible. A knowledgeable LNer emailed me and said that CE2636 was taken from the KRLD-TV live coverage and that my “masked man” was actually a hand just in front of a black hat worn by a DPD detective. I repeatedly watched the clip he linked and couldn’t see exactly what is shown in CE2636, but I suppose that doesn’t mean it wasn’t there.

Thanks, Chris. Does this solve the issue for everyone? For some reason, I can't seem to see in this clip exactly what is depicted in CE2636.

I've drawn a yellow arrow pointing to the apparently Masked Man in WCE2636. Who is that guy? Was his face deliberately obscured? (Page reproduction is from Google Books.)

One piece of evidence suggesting the Mexico City charade was not just an opportunistic after-the-fact creation by David Phillips is the apparent indication that on Oct. 3rd and 4th, when one Oswald was at the Downtown YMCA and Texas Employment Commission in Dallas, another Oswald was nearly 400 miles to the south in Alice, Texas. This Oswald apparently told radio station KOPY personnel that “he had just come from Mexico.” If true, this suggests the Mexico City frame-up pre-dated the efforts by Phillips to exploit it. One other possibility is that Hoover just made up the “just come from Mexico” remark to tighten the evidentiary noose around “Lee Harvey Oswald,” but, if memory serves (and it often doesn’t) , in an interview independent of the FBI, KOPY manager Stewart also repeated the Mexico claim. Does anyone remember that?

Yes, indeed! Unless he did a perfectly adequate job marking a trail to Mexico City, but then it was discovered that the evidence created a Really Serious Problem. In that case, as usual, the evidence would have to disappear and be replaced by improved evidence. *IF* Ruby’s Oswald traveled to Mexico City to lay low there while, say, an impostor went to the consulates using his name, I can only speculate what the problem with the bread crumbs from Dallas to MC might have been. One guess, though, is that the real evidence of a Dallas to MC trip might have conflicted with other real evidence of a second Oswald leaving New Orleans. How would the FBI explain, for example, two bus tickets for two Lee Harvey Oswalds departing from New Orleans and Dallas at roughly the same time? In the evidentiary panic, EVERYTHING might get swept under the rug! It’s kind of reminiscent of the two Oswalds timeline problems on the early afternoon of 11/22/63. These guys were good, but they seemed to have occasional problems managing the timeline for their two principals. After all, the framers were dealing with human beings, not chess pieces. *IF* the conspiracy to frame an Oswald in MC occurred before the alleged visits to the consulates, problems like I speculate above could be quite possible, at least in my opinion. Obviously, there is a lot of speculation here.