Jim Hargrove

Bart Kamp....

I'd like to believe that PrayerSmudge was really LHO.  It would prove the Warren Commission was completely wrong.

Please show me the best image you have of PrayerSmudge as LHO.   You certainly don't have to do it, but I'd LOVE to see it.

Just askin.....

14 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

To Bart Kamp....

I have to confess that I've been barely paying attention here, but I'm trying to take a little interest....

Just to begin a potential discussion with a bit of clarity, is it your position that the blurry image I'm going to call PrayerSmudge shows--without a doubt--the young man killed by Jack Ruby in Dallas in November 1963 standing on the steps of the Dallas Book Depository at the time of JFK's murder?

7 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

Jim, You are being a bit antagonistic, I think. Prayer Person is beyond doubt a person. Your uncharacteristic characterization seems to doubt even that we are talking, for sure, about a person. You are aware of how testy this debate can get, and I have not known you to unnecessarily fan the flames.

Fair enough, Michael.

I'll try to tone it down....

But I have to ask.  Are you absolutely convinced that PrayerSmudge is LHO?

To Bart Kamp....

I have to confess that I've been barely paying attention here, but I'm trying to take a little interest....

Just to begin a potential discussion with a bit of clarity, is it your position that the blurry image I'm going to call PrayerSmudge shows--without a doubt--the young man killed by Jack Ruby in Dallas in November 1963 standing on the steps of the Dallas Book Depository at the time of JFK's murder?

From Brian Doyle ....

   At 5:42 of the interview, Rosa, Sarah's daughter in law, reverts to her pure memory and mentions Sarah saying to Oswald "Are you going UP to lunch?"...Oswald responds "No, I'm going back in my room"...Seeing how Sarah encountered Oswald by the lunch room door it makes sense that Oswald went back into the lunch room where Carolyn Arnold witnessed him shortly after...What people don't know is Wanda, the grand daughter, told me she thought Sarah said she saw Oswald in a break room...That break room was obviously the 2nd floor lunch room...

   If Kamp would simply juxtapose Sarah's chubby forearm in the family photo with his blow-up of Prayer Man's forearm we would see they are a forensic match...The large hand is also match...In fact, the entire chubby forearm would be apparent in Darnell if the corner of Sarah's purse were not jutting in front of the wrist section...Jim DiEugenio has already posted that when he first saw the Prayer Man image he thought the person was too stocky to be Oswald...

   Frazier's 2013 video interview makes it more than clear Sarah is looking at him when Calvery reached the steps...One look at Darnell shows Frazier and Prayer Man looking at and focused on each other with Prayer Man having Sarah's chubby features and being her precise 5 foot 5 height...

   After reviewing my interview with Stanton's relatives I realized Sarah had colored her story by assuming the authorities were correct and Oswald went upstairs to the Sniper's Nest after she met him...That's where the "upstairs" part repeated by the relatives came from...A more sterile view of Sarah's experience would show she had no idea where Oswald went after she left him at the 2nd floor staircase landing...Carolyn Arnold tells us where Oswald went after encountering Sarah...

   I assume most responsible JFK assassination evidence analysts would immediately consider how Stanton's witnessed Coke relates to Baker's crossed-out Coke...Or Jeraldean Reid's...
 

17 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Late edit: Mrs. Stanton's story actually played into the lone shooter theory which was well established with the FBI early on and even more so in  the spring of 1964 when Mrs. Stanton was interviewed by the FBI. So, why would the FBI suppresss a testimony in which Lee is seen by another Depository employee to go upstairs, and even saying that he was going upstairs and will not have a lunch. This would fit with Lee Oswald's plan to kill the President - he went downstairs and then went back upstairs to accomplish his misdeed. Yet, the FBI was not interested in anyone hearing Mrs. Stanton's story. Why is it so? The coke is the problem: Mrs. Stanton saw Lee with a bottle of coke very early on, maybe at 12.10, or 12.15 as the latest. However, the made-up second floor encounter also needed a fresh coke (at least so it has been arranged) and that would not fare well with Mrs. Stanton's account.

This is an interesting point.  Written, of course, without any information from Sarah Stanton's family, JA included this in Harvey and Lee:

The Warren Commission concluded that after firing at President Kennedy one
man, "Lee Harvey Oswald," ran down the rear stairs to the 2nd floor and entered the
lunchroom. After being confronted by Truly and Baker (wearing a brown shirt) Oswald
purchased a Coke, left the lunchroom, entered the TSBD office, walked past Mrs. Rob­-
ert Reid with the Coke in hand (wearing a white t-shirt), through the TSBD office on the
2nd floor, down the front stairs, through the foyer, out the building, and then walked 7
blocks east on Elm Street before boarding a city bus (wearing a long sleeved brown shirt
and carrying a grey jacket). In order to reach this conclusion the Commission had to over­-
come the following contradictions:

1) (Harvey) Oswald purchased a Coke shortly after noon before returning to the
1st floor to eat lunch, yet he (Lee Oswald) was seen carrying a full bottle of
Coke at 12:32 pm.  This would have been (Harvey) Oswald's second Coke within a
half hour.
2) (Harvey) Oswald did not have a Coke when seen by Baker and Truly, yet
(Lee) Oswald had a full bottle of Coke when seen by Mrs. Reid only moments
later. When (Harvey) was seen by the reporters in the lobby of the TSBD he
did not have a bottle of Coke.
3) Neither Baker, Truly, nor Mrs. Reid saw (Lee) Oswald carry a grey work jacket
during or after he was seen in the lunchroom, yet he (Harvey Oswald) was seen
on the city bus wearing a grey work jacket.
4) (Harvey) Oswald was seen wearing a brown shirt in the lunchroom, a white t-
shirt in the TSBD office (Lee), and a brown shirt and grey jacket on a city bus
(Harvey).

The above sequence of events was simply not possible with one person.
 

SA James Hosty's notes from Harvey Oswald's interrogation on November 22 at
3:15 pm reflect that he bought a Coke before he ate lunch in the domino room on the
1st floor. Hosty's notes read, "At noon went to lunch ..... went to 2nd floor to get coco­-
cola to eat with lunch and returned to 1st floor to eat lunch." Hosty's notes do not reflect
that Oswald purchased a 2nd coke after being confronted by Officer Baker and Roy Troly in the
2nd floor lunchroom at 12:32 pm.

The following day Hosty wrote a report that contradicted his notes. SA Hosty
reported, "Oswald stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed
he ate his lunch on the first floor lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where
the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola for his lunch."¹¹⁶
Hosty 's carefully worded report made it appear as though Oswald purchased a Coke but never
returned to the 1st floor.
 

SA Hosty's notes reflect that he, SA James Bookhout, and Captain Fritz were
present during the interview with Oswald. When SA Bookhout wrote his report on
November 25 (allegedly reflecting Captain Fritz's interview of Oswald on November
22 at 3:15 pm), it differed from Hosty's notes and Hosty's report. Bookhout wrote, "He
was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-Cola from the
soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn
and asked him if he worked there."¹¹⁷ Bookhout's report made it appear as though Oswald
purchased the Coke before he was confronted by Baker and Truly.

The Commission resolved the problem of when Oswald purchased the coke by conclud­-
ing, "He presumably purchased (the Coke) after the encounter with Baker and Truly."¹¹⁸

--from Harvey and Lee, pp. 815-816, Copyright © 2003 by John Armstrong.  All Rights Reserved.

15 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

The interview also sheds some light on the conflict between Mrs. Stanton's testimony for the FBI in which she claimed that she did not see Oswald in Friday, November 22, and her description of her encounter with Lee Oswald which she conferred to her family members.

More likely is that the FBI just altered her testimony, as was done in so many other instances.  For example, the short (3 minute) YouTube video below demonstrates quite clearly how the FBI altered the observations of three critical Dealey Plaza witnesses who believed shots may have been taken at JFK from outside of the Texas School Book Depository, thus contradicting the official story.

Apparently, Sarah Stanton also contradicted the official story.

The FBI went to extraordinary lengths to suppress evidence of what CIA accountant James Wilcott called the “Oswald Project,” including sending out agents within hours of the assassination to confiscate original school and teen-aged employment records of “Lee Harvey Oswald.” In the wee hours of the night of Nov 22-23, 1963, the FBI secretly took “Oswald's Possessions” from the Dallas Police Department, transported them to Washington, D.C. altered them, and then secretly returned them to Dallas, only to publicly send them to Washington. D.C. a few days later. Among a great many other alterations, a Minox “spy camera” became a Minox “light meter.” Tax records, not found by Dallas police who said they initialed each scrap of paper, magically appeared without DPD initials.  FBI agent James Cadigan inadvertently spilled the bean about the secret transfer during his sworn WC testimony, which was altered by the WC.

The FBI falsified so much testimony that it even had a process in place for routinely doing so, including over the objections of Warren Commission attorneys.  

15 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

 Of course, the interview is fatal to the theory that Sarah Stanton was Prayer Man. As I explained in a different thread, it is not worthy to argue about the hair colour or the shape of the hairline as this will end in both sides claiming their points ad infinitum without any resolution. Sarah Stanton was a tall person (given that the average height of females in her age category was 5'2'' in 1963) and it turns out that she was just too tall to be Prayer Man. The most simple way to demonstrate Mrs. Stanton's body height in the doorway is by fitting a measuring stick to Mr. Frazier's body. As his body height was 6' or 6'1/2 '', it is possible to draw a line at 5'5''. The line runs far above Prayer Man's head which reached to 5'2''. This does not mean that Prayer Man was 5'2'' because he stood with his right foot on the second step and therefore, Prayer Man's body height was 5'2'' + 7'' (the height of one step) = 5'9''.   

I hope this is my one and only comment on PrayerMan,  but I don’t see how your measurements rule out Sarah Stanton as PrayerMan.  The fuzzy figure could be leaning back against the building for support, which wouldn’t be unusual for such a heavy woman.  To me, the forearms look pretty thick, as you would expect Stanton’s to be.  I hope to never make another comment about who FuzzyPerson was, because I have no idea, but I am not convinced by anyone's arguments.

15 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Jim:

thanks for posting this audio recording. In spite of containing many leading questions and maneuvering the two ladies to adopt certain views, the interview does contain useful information. Importantly, the interview confirms the authenticity of the photograph in which Mrs. Stanton was photographed with her son Larry. The paragraph below contains the points which the ladies have confirmed:

00:25  Sarah Stanton talked about the assassination with members of her family, it was always the same story.
01:21: Sarah stood on the front steps during the shooting and she left the doorway immediately after the shooting to get a better view.
01:26: Lee Oswald was drinking a soda when he was seen by Sarah.
01:36: Sarah Stanton was a very big woman.
02:08: Sarah Stanton saw Lee Oswald on stairs. She asked if she was going down, and he said he is going upstairs.
02:32: "No, I am going upstairs" "I came down to get the soda and I am going back ... to the room where he was working"    
03:12: Sarah saw Lee Oswald holding a soda in his hand.
04:26: Lee got the soda from the machine there.
05:03: Sarah said Lee was going to eat and he just came to get a soda.
05:48: Sarah asked if Lee was going to have lunch. He said: "No, I am going back to my room."
06:09: "The reason ... She wanna to talk to him because he was a very quiet person... and he was not going to... to have a conversation with nobody".
06:23: "So, she said he never talked, so she asked him if he was going out to lunch. And he said, "No, just a soda". "
07:19: Sarah went down because President was already coming but he was not there yet. So she went to prepare herself and be on the stairs where she met Oswald.
08:15: "He went upstairs".
08:35: When asked if Sarah spoke to the FBI, the answer was "I dont' think so". Wanda explains: "She did not wanna speak. And we don't know her reasons for it... but she did not want to speak to anybody,  and they were harassing her.... not harassing her, but any calls or I don't know they were coming over and trying to get information ... she really did not want to say anything, she did not want to be bothered."
09:50: The ladies could not confirm that Sarah spoke to the FBI.
09:59: Lee Oswald was a very quiet person, did not speak to anybody.
11:41: "We would not know what she told them" (the FBI).
12:23: Confirmed that Sarah was Prayer Man because of the body shape.
12:28: Oswald went up before the motorcade came through.
13:58: When asked to confirm that Sarah had the same characteristics as Prayer Man, both women confirmed.
14:07: Confirmed that Sarah was about 5'5''.
14:37: Sarah could also be 5'6''.
14:49: Sarah herself said she was 5'4'' - 5'6''.
15:00: Agreed that their conclusion that Sarah was Prayer Man was owing to Sarah being taller than other doorway occupants.
15:36: Sarah weighed at least 300 pounds. She was over 300 pounds.
16:11: Sarah was big at the bottom and her hips, less so at her top.  Her arms were big.
16:30: The picture with Sarah and her son Larry is not exactly from 1963 because Sarah was even bigger at that time than when she was photographed with Larry.
17:28: The colour of Sarah's hair was grey in 1963. 
18:41: Not remembered that Sarah would be ever dying her hair. 
19:09: Maybe Sarah had a wig (laughing).
21:26: Did not agree that the face seen in Davidson's enhancement of Wiegman frame was Sarah's face.
22:20: Sarah was looking at the street, not in a purse.
22:30: The ladies think that Prayer Man was a woman.
22:48: Larry was tall over 6 feet.
23:29: Larry was 6'1''.

Andrej,

Megathanks for taking the time to create this outline of Mr. Doyle’s interview with Sarah Stanton’s family members.  Anyone willing to take time out from the endless PrayerMan squabbles can see the significance of these recollections.  Although clearly hearsay, it is yet another indication that, shortly before the assassination of JFK, “Lee Harvey Oswald” was not on the sixth floor of the building preparing to fire a Magic Bullet from a Magic Carcano at JFK.  How sad that so few people in this thread seem much interested in that.
 

Again, I have no horse in the PrayerMan race.  I think the images are too fuzzy to say anything on the basis of the graphics alone.  But the issue of whether Sarah Stanton saw Oswald carrying a Coke or soda pop inside the TSBD just prior to the hit is an important one, and this interview discusses that with Sarah Stanton’s granddaughter and daughter-in-law.

5 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Jim,

there was no need to drag that dreck over here, there has been too much of it here already. None of it can substantiated in any shape or form.

Doyle is the faker btw, was not aimed at you.

Now then shall I say case closed.........

How so?

http://www.prayer-man.com/pauline-sanders-and-sarah-stanton-in-darnell/

Bart,

Frankly, I could care less about how much of a bully you are.  To me, PrayerMan is nothing but a blurry Rorschach test, way too obscure to say anything serious about the assassination of JFK.  I do, however, think that the man I know as troppocrat@aol.com is a SERIOUS JFK researcher, and you do strike me as a BULLY.  Perhaps I'm wrong, but here are a few of the messages troppocrat@aol.com has sent me about you....

Jim:

The link I am attaching is the reason why I had you post what I sent you...

In it Bart Kamp ignores all the detailed evidence I provided while picking a random individual on the steps and labeling her Stanton...

   Kamp ignores a multitude of evidence...But what he ignores the most is Frazier's comments in the video I had you post...That is why I had you post it because it forces the Prayer Man people to answer it...Kamp flagrantly ignores the fact that Frazier emphasized he and Stanton were deep into the shadows...Not only does Kamp choose a person who was in the opposite direction of Frazier and well behind him, but he ignores the fact that the person he randomly selects is way out in direct sunlight and therefore cannot be deep in the shadows as Frazier described Stanton as being...

   Kamp is lying when he says there is no substantiation of any of this...What he flagrantly ignores and desperately tries to get around with these silly offerings says more than anything to credible people...Kamp insults the membership by offering a juvenile one-line response to all of this complex detailed evidence...He's clearly trying to keep information he is aware refutes him from the forum and is therefore working against the rules and interests of the Education Forum and its membership...I think we know who the "faker" is...

     No one points this out on the forum:

            http://www.prayer-man.com/pauline-sanders-and-sarah-stanton-in-darnell/
 

 Jim,  I'm sure you've had your fill of the Prayer Man crap but I read the latest entries by Stancak and they are incredible efforts at Rube Goldberg pseudo-analysis...Because the Education Forum has been trimmed down to only pro-Murphy posters no one takes a deserved wack at Stancak's pinata of ridiculous pseudo-science he tries to pass off as research...

   He calls the obviously short Sarah Stanton "a tall woman" and then tries to pass off her son Larry as being 6 foot tall...I eyed Prayer Man as being 5 foot 5 from my analyses of the Prayer Man evidence over the years...Stanton's relatives confirmed she was 5 foot 5...I now say Stanton's son seen in the family photo the Education Forum finally managed to post is about 5 foot 10 or so...Stancak is making him 6 foot and directly comparable to Frazier...The Education Forum allows Stancak to run uncontrolled like a kid in a sandbox...

    To keep it short if Stancak simply bothered to read what I've posted on my Prayer Woman page and elsewhere he would see I have established firm photogrammetric proof in the form of Prayer Man's height, thick forearm, hips, and the timing of Calvery reaching the steps vs Frazier's saying he was talking to Sarah...If you'll notice Stancak omits all of these when he references the image that was connected to them...

....

It is amazing that the community would not be interested in the seriously important new story about Stanton seeing Oswald with a soda and its significance all because of a petty need to hang on to that Prayer Man BS...

....

DiEugenio asked Kamp where he thought Stanton was and Kamp replied on the east side of the steps...No one on the Prayer Man-dominated Education Forum mentions that Stanton testified that she couldn't see the limousine at the time of the shots - which would put her on the west side right where Prayer Man was blocked from seeing the limo by the west wall...Really credible forum

....

  No one mentions to Andrej that Frazier was very specific in his detailing that he and Sarah were deep in to the shadows on the landing...If they were deep in to the shadows then they were far back on the landing and therefore had both feet on the landing...Once you show Prayer Man had both feet on the landing then you can say with certainty that "he" is 5 foot 5 in height when compared to Frazier and therefore too short to be Oswald...Gordon has allowed Andrej and Kamp to be the only voices on the issue...Therefore they are being shielded from answering these correct points... What Andrej does is seize the narrative by asking numerous questions...By doing so he avoids answering evidence like I am citing here...Andrej is assisted by Gordon in avoiding answering that Stanton's daughter told me Sarah was 5 foot 5...

   Stancak listed "Tiny Woman" (Pauline Sanders) as being 5 foot tall...Stancak knew he had a problem because that excluded Tiny Woman from being the 5 foot 5 Stanton...Which meant he now had to find Stanton out on the landing and identify her...Only he couldn't do it...The recent family photo of Stanton sent to me by her grand daughter shows Stanton to be quite wide in body size...She would obviously be hard to conceal on the landing due to her size...Stancak couldn't locate Stanton so what he did was translate a glimpse of Pauline Sanders' face seen behind Lovelady in Altgens in to an imaginary Sarah Stanton he then inserted in to Darnell...This

 new imaginary Stanton was created out of thin air by Stancak because he knew the evidence needed him to come up with a non-Prayer Man Stanton...The community let him get away with this rogue fabrication...Stancak ignored that Prayer Man was the exact 5 foot 5 listed as Stanton's height...He also ignored the wide hips seen on Prayer Man that matched Stanton's...

   Another thing Kamp and Stancak avoid with their aggressive so-called demands for evidence is that Shelley & Lovelady spoke to Calvery at the base of the steps before taking off up the Elm St extension...Since the Couch/Darnell clip shows Shelley & Lovelady well on their way up the extension, that means Calvery has already conveyed her information that the president had been shot to the occupants of the steps...Which makes you realize the timing is then established for Frazier and Sarah hearing Calvery's saying that...It then becomes undeniable that the Couch/Darnell sequence is at a time period where Frazier has to already be in to the process of communicating Calvary's information to Sarah...One look at the clip shows Frazier and Prayer Man focused on each other and directly looking at each other...This forces the conclusion that Frazier is speaking to "Sarah" at this moment, as he makes clear in the video...

    I have never seen any Prayer Man supporter answer this and Gordon seems intent at not asking them...This is really a matter of credible moderation at this point...

   Why the hate? - Because Kamp is trying to pre-empt having to answer what he already knows to be true...

I'm asking again, Bart.  Where does all your HATE come from?

15 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

May I suggest you do not  act like a mouthpiece for Brian Doyle and his unsubstantiated drivel. This rubbish is rightly so not discussed here.

Why not present the complete picture with the statements relating to her (standing n the east side  i/e)

Then Doyle who ends up quoting her (grand) daughter ought to be publishing the tape or emails/messages he received from her since she sent him the pic it would be easy to show with a screen shot, yet bugger all has been produced.

Faker!

Good grief!  Regardless of the facts of where Sarah Stanton was standing on the TSBD stairs...

Where does all your HATE come from?

Can we not even discuss this politely?

Buell Frazier, in the YouTube video below, says he was standing next to Sarah Stanton on the Depository steps.  The sequence begins at the 40:52 mark.

A trusted correspondent has told me that Sarah Stanton’s daughter-in-law is confirming on Facebook that her mother-in-law saw LHO “by the stairs” before she went outside to watch the motorcade.  Here’s what the correspondent wrote:

Yesterday Sarah Stanton's daughter in law confirmed that her mother in law regularly told family members of meeting Lee Harvey Oswald "by the stairs" prior to Stanton's going out to watch the motorcade... The daughter in law said Sarah said Oswald had a soda... Sarah asked Oswald "Are you going to eat lunch?"...Oswald replied "No, just a soda"... Sarah then went out to watch the motorcade...

   Though this doesn't place Oswald in the lunch room directly it bears hints that the encounter happened by the vestibule to the 2nd floor lunch room...Stanton was a 2nd floor office employee so it makes sense that she encountered Oswald by the 2nd floor lunch room...It makes sense to me that by logic Stanton asked Oswald if he was going to eat lunch because he was standing on the 2nd floor stairway landing by the door to the lunch room...I think the daughter in law mentioned Sarah seeing Oswald in a "break room" so I assume this was the lunch room since the only other break room was the Domino Room far from the stairs in the Northeast corner of the Depository...I assume Stanton would have no reason to go to the workers break room since she was an office worker and the Domino Room was not near any stairs...In any case why would Stanton ask Oswald if he was going to lunch if he was just standing "by the stairs" with a soda? It makes sense to me that Stanton saw Oswald by the vestibule to the 2nd floor lunch room near the same place that Carolyn Arnold saw him.... Logic dictates Oswald bought the soda in the lunch room....

   This is serious new evidence that corroborates Oswald being seen in the 2nd floor lunch room just before, as well as just after, the assassination...It also evidences Oswald having a soda, which means he was set up eating lunch in the 2nd floor lunch room and was probably there during the assassination...

    Debra Conway gave it a "like" on her Facebook page...Robert Groden told me "You really have something there"...
 

13 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Off thread I know, but at the end of the 2018 SF Newman presentation which you can access on the KGB thread, Peter Dale Scott asks Newman if he’s sure that the Oswald defector is the same Oswald as the one killed in Dallas, and Newman responds “no - I have an open mind about that”.

I saw that, but in this case the false defector and the man killed by Ruby were one and the same... Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald.  The difficulty in analyzing "Oswald" is that the summation can only come from hundreds or thousands of little details... hard to remember all at once.

At a JFK conference during which both John Newman and John Armstrong spoke in the late 1990s, I talked briefly with Dr. Newman about Armstrong's Harvey and Lee analysis, publicly first presented just a year or two earlier.  Dr. Newman only said that the official biography of "Oswald," especially his early years, had never been looked at critically before and that it was fascinating.

I suppose it is just one more minor detail, but I'm absolutely stunned that so few researchers find interesting the fact that just hours after he allegedly took LHO's wallet from him, DPD Det. Paul Bentley said on WFAA-TV that he thought the wallet contained a driver's license and credit cards!  Nothing to think about there, eh?

What’s so surprising about the Post article is that, as we all know, the MSM seems to speak with one voice about the 1960s assassinations, always towing the company line.  One possible explanation is most reporters’ failure to consider the legitimacy of so much of the evidence now in the National Archives.

For example, if you believe LHO used the Magic Money Order to pay for the Magic Carcano that shot the Magic Bullet, then you are  halfway home to believing the Warren Commission’s findings.  Examining the evidence in detail is not going to happen for most Americans, sadly including most news professionals.

What this doesn’t explain is most Americans’ visceral rejection of the Official Story, at least in the JFK case.  It just stinks to high heaven, and we’ve had more than half a century to smell it.

Dan,

John would agree with most of the names on your list, with the notable exception of Marina Oswald.  I suspect every effort was made to keep her unaware of the other LHO.  A couple of years ago, John replied directly to questions of who knew about the "Oswald plot," let's call it, and made it pretty clear who he thought knew about the two LHOs even if they were unaware of the assassination conspiracy. Here's a link to the list:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23677-a-couple-of-real-gems-from-the-harvey-and-lee-website/?do=findComment&comment=361688

Also, back to the subject of this thread, DPD Detective Paul Bentley, who supposedly took the wallet from Oswald, gave a WFAA-TV interview the day after the assassination (while Harvey Oswald was still alive) and said that he thought there was a driver's license in Oswald's wallet.  He makes the assertion at the 9-minute mark of the video below:

11 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

So did Westbrook see it at 10th and Patton also?  Did he state this at some point in time or is it in a report?

"That wallet was in (Captain) Westbrook’s hand.”

http://jfkfacts.org/oswalds-wallet-planted-at-the-tippit-crime-scene/

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

Jim - you think this is evidence of two Oswalds? I’m not baiting you just checking. Interesting that Westbrook saw it. Also notable that none of the names are familiar (to me at least).

Paul,

From the chart above....

Cliff Shasteen was American-born LEE Oswald's barber in Texas, who cut his hair on numerous occasions in 1963 while Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald and family were still living in New Orleans.  Shasteen testified at length to the Warren Commission, and if you know the official "Oswald" timeline, his testimony explains almost everything.

Shasteen told both the FBI and Warren Commission that Oswald drove Ruth Paine's station wagon to his barber shop and he watched him cross the street and enter Leonard Hutchison's grocery store. Shasteen said, "He (Lee Oswald) drove that there 1955, I think it's a 1955, I'm sure it's a 1955 Chevrolet station wagon. It's either blue and white or green and white--it's two toned--I know that."  Shasteen observed this remembering the summer of 1963, when HARVEY Oswald and family were still living in New Orleans.

Gertrude Hunter and Edith Whitworth were at the Furniture Mart in Irving, TX (near Dallas) when "Oswald" and his entire "family" approached them looking for gun parts in 1963. Whitworth sent him to Dial Ryder's gun shop.  Both Hunter and Whitworth testified to the Warren Commission, and the WC actually brought Hunter, Whitworth and Marina Oswald together to determine whether "Oswald" could drive a car.  In my opinion, it was the WC's boldest attempt to find the truth about Oswald in this whole sordid case.

FBI agent Bob Barrett saw the American-born Oswald's driver's license at 10th & Patton immediately after the Tippit murder. This info is widely available on the Internet. 

Leo Sepulveda is one of the many witnesses who said he saw LEE Oswald in Alice, Texas on October 4th, 1963.  His co-worker M.E. Pope remembered that the young man both of them saw gave his name as "Oswald" and listed his Marine Corps service on his employment application. Pope described Oswald as 30 years old, 5-foot-8, about 150 lbs, and recalled that his wife waited for him in an old Plymouth or Chevrolet sedan. After the assassination both Sepulveda and Pope said the man accused of assassinating President Kennedy was the same man they saw in Alice, Texas on October 4, 1963.

If you're interested, I'd be happy to discuss other people on the chart above who knew American-born LEE Oswald could drive a car. 

From the H&L website:

Thanks to Richard Price for pointing out this fascinating video.

How many times does a man have to be impersonated before you begin to wonder if there is a simpler explanation? Just to point out the obvious....

Lots of other people knew about one of the Lee Harvey Oswalds' valid Texas driver's license.  See....

THE MAN WHO COULD--AND COULDN'T--DRIVE

Violinist Paul Krassner, who according to Wikipedia is STILL at age 6 the youngest human being ever to have played solo at Carnegie Hall, had this to say nearly three decades ago via Paul Kangas....

On 5/25/2018 at 12:39 AM, Paul Brancato said:

Jim - another lifelong friend of Gordon McLendon was Army Colonel Frank M. Brandstetter. Brandy was a member of the 488th Military Intelligence Detachment founded by Jack Crichton. 'Brandy' joined the 488th in 1959 at the suggestion of Colonel Rose, Assistant Chief of Staff Intelligence, to which office Brandy reported on Intelligence matters for 20 years beginning in 1956. Crichton claimed that 40-50 members of the Dallas Police (and I think nearly all of the detectives) were members of his unit, including Westbrook and Lumpkin. Although documents showing the history of the 488th are hard to find, the info on Brandy being a member comes from his own co-written autobiography. The link to key members of the DPD would be significant if it could be proven. I've asked some key researchers if they have more info. The 488th was also apparently in charge of the communications bunker under the Dallas Fairgrounds. 

Thank you, Paul.  My buddy John convinced me decades ago that this was basically a CIA officer’s plot to provoke a U.S. invasion of Cuba.  But I‘ve always felt there was some military complicity, though hard evidence is sure hard to find.  I’ve read about the 488th MI Detachment and Jack Cricthon before, and I’ll look at it again. Crichton was the apparent outsider who set up Ilya Mamantov as Marina's "interpreter," whether she really needed one or not.  Crichton, Bush, and Charles Cabel were probably involved in setting up the CIA's Cuban invasion army.  As you suggest, there is a lot of smoke here.

7 hours ago, Joseph McBride said:

Whatever Livingstone writes needs to be taken with a big grain of salt

and corroborated with more reliable sources, if possible.

Sounds reasonable to me, but he does have one of my favorite lines in this whole field which goes, if memory serves, something like this:

Quote

There is lots of evidence in the National Archives against Lee Harvey Oswald, and all of it is phony.

Thank you, Linda, for updating this information.  I've asked JA to help me update the H&L website with the latest and most complete data available on James and Elsie Wilcott.  My guess is that he'll be more than happy to do so and that the new information should be up within a few days.

So few things are simple in this case, and it seems as if Gary Murr took as hard a look at this particular story as is humanly possible.The general topic of the jail sightings was apparently discussed here pretty thoroughly in 2005.  The following post by Ron Ecker was particularly interesting, I thought.

The described FBI report (which I didn't turn up in a brief search) apparently indicates that the "sniper's nest" window was visible from at least some windows in the fifth floor of the jail, but the sixth floor jail windows weren't discussed, at least in the summary.