Clive Largey

Linda, if I had known it was yours at first, I would have not used the phrase "taking liberties" and I doubt Robert would have either, my sincere apologies to you. The way you present your work here speaks for itself and I thank you for continuing to share it and your thoughts with us. I knew reasonably well how you made the connections to that being Calvary on film but I suppose it had something to do with it being presented on a website outside of the research community as fact that ever so slightly "irked" us. Right, We try to only insult people we don't know. LOL --Tommy Boy is there a hair up your behind today.

Wiegman later claimed to have witnessed the shooting, he heard "three load booms" he said Tommy but when he got to the Trade Mart all he did was hang around for ten minutes filming the spectators still awaiting the motorcade. I've already provided evidence in this thread that Wiegman himself told us he ran to the front out of habit. Sure, denial yes that's possible but so too is my point, that he was clueless to a shooting and heard nothing worth worrying about especially since he explained to us that that his actions were nothing unusual and there we have him hanging around the Trade Mart after the shooting doing nothing out of the ordinary. If he heard a shooting, wouldn't you at least expect for him to tell someone at the Trade Mart about it and then quite possibly record there response to it? Do you even realise just what rabid news hound this man was? If there was anyone who could be defined as Paparazzi in that motorcade it was him. Watch the clip I linked to, there is six cops guarding the limo at PH and he still manages to sneak up and get a shot of the inside of it before they push him back. Anyway, you disagree, what can I do? I don't have much more.

Linda, if I had known it was yours at first, I would have not used the phrase "taking liberties" and I doubt Robert would have either, my sincere apologies to you. The way you present your work here speaks for itself and I thank you for continuing to share it and your thoughts with us. I knew reasonably well how you made the connections to that being Calvary on film but I suppose it had something to do with it being presented on a website outside of the research community as fact that ever so slightly "irked" us.

Robert, the only way I've seen this calculated is by using Wiegman in Couch and anyone can check it for themselves. Wiegman stops filming the Hesters close to 24secs after Z313*, then runs to the Newmans and Couch partially captured this event three seconds into his own film. So, it's very probable that Mal(and Jimmy) started filming within a second or two of Dave stopping or even, at the exact same time. So 24s after Z313 for the Couch frame you chose and the Wiegman frame is actually 3s before Z313. So 27 seconds between the two. *That can be worked out because Wiegman just happened to catch the limo in one frame. Speaking of Wiegman. Does a newsman that's just witnessed first hand shots and all, an attempted assassination of the President then head to the original destination of the motorcade? Well it could happen, he couldn't have know he was actually shot. While he's heading there though and with a Lem Johns on-board, there must have been more than a little speculation amongst the passengers, you would think. So when they arrive at the Trade Mart, what does Dave Wiegman do? Does he alert the cops at least? 12:45pm Johns hears a broadcast over a radio that he's been hit and Dave, Tom and Lem head to Parkland. It's not concrete evidence he was as in the dark as Atkins but one might be forgiven for thinking that Dave had no clue about a shooting at all.

They are just out of shot in that frame, to the west. In Wiegman's next semi usable frame of the bystanders they are clearly identifiable, Millican is at least, still with arms folded, I think.

VIP = very important person, in this case the President and he's not got the camera up to his eye Tommy, all he's doing is getting ready to jump out. Wiegman and the first two to follow him onto the knoll travelling in the same vehicle. Pictures of the Pain. Richard Trask (Camera Car 1 p372-) Telephone interview 1989. Selected portions from me but verbatim(as much as I'm able). There you have it, it was a technique/habit. His first instinct was to jump out and run forward when he saw the motorcade slow, he did it all the time and he's only after exclusive shots of the President. IMHO that he captured a few good frames of the people outside the TSBD was just a coincidence. The only thing in his mind is getting out and running forward. That's what he says in between telling us it was the sounds that he reacted to and makes no mention of being slightly scared of said sounds and neither does anyone else in any of the camera cars. 1986 telephone interview (POTP P375) Another who couldn't wait to leave the scene of the biggest story of his life which thanks to his honesty we know he hadn't the slightest clue about. Neither did Craven or Wiegman. That's why they left so quickly and Tom filmed nothing until Wiegman ran down to the Newmans. Just stood there watching Dave, as seen in Couch. (POTP 374 Telephone interview 1986) CRAVEN: Said it was other people's reactions that made him jump out, he names the Newmans. This is the theory then, without Wiegman and his habit of jumping out, everything keeps moving except Baker and no one stops at the intersection and no one looks at the TSBD, including Brennan, Jackson and Euins. It's a complete chain reaction. Why are people looking up at the windows in Darnell? That's been explained to me but I'll need time to put it all together. Sorry about the blow-up, was just looking too hard for the patch

I do happen to think that the man walking down the extension has more going for him, even without the bald patch but who would rule out either one of them at this stage? Tommy said: Actually, if you look at the Martin clip or when he's in the police station it was slightly more than just the top, the sides where beginning to be affected too, I'm not saying we should see the patch in Darnell. I'm just, I suppose, "arguing" against the repeated references to it by others. The same spots can be seen on the other man's head. It's almost too good not to be both of them.

Tommy, I know it must sound slightly crazy and I know it goes against practically every witness account but some researcher's observations have influenced me and I cannot go back. Everything you read into these two films as you kindly detailed above can be read differently. Dale Myers has "synced" Wiegman with Dorman. 00:00.00= Z313 exactly or so he thinks. It cannot be far off. Look at the frames in your best copies and just watch the bystanders in W & D. No one makes sudden moves to avoid bullets, no one takes cover or even looks concerned, no one reacts at all. Not up there near the intersection. Turning heads might be a reaction to an odd sound or two perhaps but no one has given anyone near them any reason to panic. Further down the street five to six seconds later and closer to the epicentre, no reaction to a possible life threatening event from all these women. Note that Charles Hester still isn't off the bench yet to save his wife, clearly neither of them reacted during the shooting. He waited six seconds after Z313 to even begin to move, with he and Beatrice "directly in the line of fire". Can anyone explain this? Read his statement again. Wiegman may have not reacted to the shots at all. You see, running towards the VIP at the first sign of a motorcade slowing wasn't exactly unusual behaviour for Dave. He was in fact travelling in that lead camera car with Atkins for this very reason. It's what he did, "hundreds of times". That quote is from memory I'll find what he said exactly. As Baker comes around into Elm and looks ahead of him, the first thing he must have seen is Dave Wiegman jumping out. The timing is perfect and I think Baker slowed down to watch what he was up to. Wiegman also appears to have had an influence on Hargis. In his film Baker is stood by his bike, the next time we see him in Bell, he's on the sidewalk. Not knowing who Wiegman was and seeing him run with purpose to the knoll seems to have sent Hargis running in the same direction but suddenly comes to a stop, at the exact same time Wiegman sat on the steps to film the Hesters. Again the timing of this is pretty close but it's very hard to prove even with Altgens providing a very good supporting account with an image to go with it. I now believe that without Dave and his uncontrollable habit of jumping out of his vehicle to grab some exclusive footage, Marrion would have continued on down as far as the Newmans at least. You'll notice in Dorman, the rider opposite Baker does exactly that, he turns the corner as usual and continues on. Wiegman gave Baker a clear heads up, that's why he stopped past the entrance to the building and collected more clues. Okay so it's not great but it's the basis of a theory that's impossible to prove. There are no signs of panic anywhere near the TSBD that I see, curiosity sure but "where did those shots come from?" I think not. More like, very simply "has something happened?".

Tommy, the only evidence on film of anyone reacting to sounds that sounded like shots are a few gentlemen in the FUC who have been trained to listen for unusual noises. In Wiegman we see no reaction from anyone lining the street outside the epicentre of that terrible headshot.Three to six shots have already been fired when he last captures spectators outside the TSBD and the crowd opposite as seen in Dorman mirror them by doing absolutely nothing out of the ordinary immediately after the assault. That is partially the reason why I believe those already standing between Darnell's camera and the entrance hadn't the slightest clue about this shooting. So then, if a man is seen on the steps crouching down(to pick up a bottle of coke off the steps perhaps) it not really that unusual to me. The man walking away still looks decent enough to be Lovelady though but I cannot find the bald spot. It's simply not there but everything else is reasonable. I think the consensus is around twenty seconds for Darnell and Couch to suddenly start filming at the exact same second. Twenty seconds, to hit a button or switch? Both of them? After hearing all those shots? You don't think that perhaps they had nothing to film because nothing happened near to them and all the action was further down the street?

Are we seeing evidence that the floor is missing Gary already? It has already pointed to Allman in Willis6 on it's You tube channel which concurs with Linda's analysis. Fischer and Edwards in Dorman looks very good too Linda, I think it's just a mix up...

Look closely at Marrion Baker, in the same film, and then look at Baker in other photos and films. Baker was a pretty chunky guy, bordering on obese, yet, in the film, he looks quite thin as well, unless, of course, that is not Baker in the film. I believe we are seeing a trick of the camera lens here that made both of them appear to be thinner. Have you got a specific film in mind where see Baker as "bordering on obese" Robert? I see an interview of him less than a year later where he has a double chin, is that what you are referring to? Seems a bit harsh. If you had to do what they asked of him instead of simply letting him tell the truth, I'm sure you might find a few more doughnuts than usual helps ease the pain. The cop running doesn't look thin like the girl does. His lower legs do at one point in those boots but the rear end appears big enough and the upper body has plenty of weight. That's my take anyway I don't really see anything unusual. Again, if he's not gunning for the entrance how does he come anywhere near Truly?

Agreed, nice cross-referencing there Thomas. I too get the feeling the running girl came from close to here but I feel she ran from Wiegman and Atkins and the reaction those newsmen caused running into the crowd like that. Some of the girls here can be made out in Couch standing by that small bush behind them in Willis, Hicks seems to be one of them. If you compare the better Wiegman frames with Couch you will see two gaps have opened up that were not there as Wiegman approached this group. Wiegman scared the hell out of quite a few people.

It does look quite a bit like Lovelady but I'm not completely sold yet. Wouldn't you say it also looks like both men are following officer Smith to see what he's up to? They take the exact same route as him all the while keeping a discreet distance. If what Smith said is correct, that a screaming woman told him to go check the bushes and he was outside the TSBD at the time, surely someone on the steps must have noticed? Of course, stalking a cop who's been told to check the knoll out isn't important, all we need to know is did you see the one head into the building? Oh yes sir, sure did sir. Walking or stalking but no longer running.

I've never seen that photo before either! Great find! It does grab my attention too. Do you know who it's by? It appears to be a still/screen capture from a film. Do you know who took the photo - or who filmed it and/or which video it came from so i can (hopefully) see it in context with the rest of the film online to get an idea of when it was taken etc...Thanks, James! I think that's been credited to Couch, filming as he left the scene of the biggest story of his life. I saved this, no idea who from but could be Gerda and Co. ​Sorry to disappoint you Clive but i was only referring to the man in the hughes film as possibly being the gentleman that Bowers mentioned in his WC testimony. Really have no idea what you are referring to or what gave you the idea. Martin Hi Martin, no problem, since you didn't quote another post I assumed you were referring to the post above you is all, perhaps if I had read the entire thread...

Well since I commented on it yesterday. That part you referred to previously was a bit premature but overall that's a pretty cool thing for Linda to do.

Robert, forget "lying", who told you witness recollection is reliable in circumstances like these? If no one did and you just assumed it was, then try finding one respectable academic source that supports you. I'm no veteran. This and two other cases, started looking at another big one this year.

Just noticed that Richard called it on Edwards on the previous page. Also, man being escorted above could pass for a hobo with those pants. Kicked off a train perhaps and still a bit "disorientated"? Tommy, you gave me a good laugh but I read it again and now think you were actually being serious. Gloria who? Sorry quite late here now, ttfn/

Yeah MAL, hey Mal! You saw a shooter in that window remember? Where you going? Does seem a little reluctant to leave perhaps but only films the knoll, anyway. Screen grab not the best but in the footage it looks like the guy in the middle is being physically assisted down the embankment rather than taken away for questioning. Partially blind or perhaps hit his head jumping over the fence? One on the right resembles a lot attendant with that hat.

Thomas unless I'm mistaken. I think Martin was referring to this post of Linda's and James, I've never seen that photo before either! Great find! It does grab my attention too. Do you know who it's by? It appears to be a still/screen capture from a film. Do you know who took the photo - or who filmed it and/or which video it came from so i can (hopefully) see it in context with the rest of the film online to get an idea of when it was taken etc...Thanks, James! I think that's been credited to Couch, filming as he left the scene of the biggest story of his life. I saved this, no idea who from but could be Gerda and Co.

Robert, I think they've taken liberties but not diabolic ones. I suppose they may want it to be Calvery running into the building because it matches certain testimony and it's just nice to think at least one person said they saw something and oh look, there it is on film. Like Linda said elsewhere if it's Calvery she would have to have lost quite a bit of weight(a few months after getting hitched). No impossible but pretty unlikely. Also remember the motorcade was late, so those people could have been standing there for twenty minutes. Calvery may have stood on that spot with Hicks but just got bored and wandered off. IMHO Chris has the right idea to find the running girl first and for me, if she's not near that Chism group which she doesn't seem to be, then it's more likely she's running from something that happened after the headshot or simply running back to grab lunch. On one of your recent points. I myself have no problem with statements not matching, or matching the films, quite the opposite, it's exactly what I've come to expect and why would they match anyway? Who says they are supposed to Robert? Do you think it's possible that the overwhelming majority outside and opposite the TSBD completely ignored the sounds they later would claim where clearly gunshots? Even Baker himself? If that is possible and after looking at these better frames of Wiegman I believe it is highly probable, then "fifty years of BS" is putting it very mildly indeed. I do get your point about Baker, it's your opinion and I understand it but I don't believe he needs support for running into the building, he has Truly (and Darnell's footage to an extent) and quite a detailed account of what he saw after he turned onto Elm which is what I believe led him to investigate the building, not the birds, or the sounds but what he saw on the street in front of him, which is mostly verifiable on film. Marking him as a good cop and by no means a slow one. This is I think, the woman Chris pointed to in Z, still in position next to man and lamp post, or might be, similar white blouse and length of skirt perhaps. Thomas was looking at them in another thread.

From one of Denis Morisette's posts.  Also thirteen minutes into this you get to see Darnell speak a little http://www.c-span.org/video/?52520-1/journalists-remember-jfk-assassination

Bumped. I'm talking, of course, about the arrow on the right. "Standing between Truly and Campbell" could have more than one interpretation. We're looking at the posh seats, not many dark faces there either. Also note that if that is Truly on the right, he would have walked down more than halfway toward the other man after the parade before heading inside and apparently nothing pushing him there but his own two feet.

Thomas, despite what Murray himself said, I always thought it was late because of the women and the radio, like they have just learnt JFK is gone but I suppose an early report of shots fired at the motorcade could have produced that same reaction. Murray passed the building on his way to the knoll and didn't come back up for maybe close to fifteen minutes or more(the clock on the TSBD is visible in one of his photos)? So would the shadows change noticeably in that time? If so then we can place it close to Altgens like Murray said(four minutes or so). If not then someone might have an easier answer. The short shadow under the sign and that of the fire escape under the window of the DT look very similar in Altgens.

It does look a bit like Cooper. I asked about this film in the PM thread and received this. I would think it might be available to view on request if you happen to find yourself in that particular sanctuary of research. Cheers mate.

Robert, Then in all due respect to you, I'd have to ask you where did Baker run to if not up the front steps, and why did none of the witnesses say anything about his sprinting to the corner, or down the side of the building, or climbing up the fire escape ladder, or running up to them to ask them some questions? I don't think it's so strange that none of the witnesses other than Truly (who in Darnell was looking right at him and turned to watch him go by) remembered and reported seeing Baker run up the steps. And as I've tried to point out, Baker's easiest route up the steps was just to the left of the center hand railing, which would explain his last-second veering in Darnell. --Tommy Busybody Bob Jackson claims to have seen something; Separate from the policeman who fell down with the bike, fwiw. How's this for funny? Jackson has given us at least four reasons for "staying in the car". 1. As above, the car took off at speed (but three of his fellow passengers managed to jump out without incident). 2. He and Couch asked the driver to let them out but he wouldn't slow down. Then at the underpass he suddenly obliges them. 3. He didn't think there would be anything worth getting out for. No seriously, that's what he said in at least one interview. 4. The one he sticks with now- the newspaper told him that morning to "stay in the car/with the president". The boy cracks me up.