Vitali Zhuk

Paul, I'm really appreciate you deep answer. Your theory becomes more clear. I have some questions to discuss. 0B. In less than 2 hours after shooting LHO was in police on 22 Nov. In less than 3 hours after shooting LHO was in police on 10 Apr. He always had time to. Was it an order of RFK to release LHO? Was it really somebody disturbed RFK early in the morning on 11 Apr to make such order? 0Ba. In 1963 Walker believed RFK stopped investigation. But Walker didn't know who was with LHO on 10 Apr. Why Walker decided to use LHO when he suspected CIA to be involved? That was stupid risk. Maybe Walker used LHO for patsy role only. 2a. Maybe Banister did unofficial job for FBI -- he gathered information from all political movements: ultra-right and left. Maybe FBI was searching for person with appropriate CV and LHO with smoking gun was good for communist provoker. 2.1a. If US Intelligence discovered the right-wing conspiracy, there must be a response. Where was the response? It could not be left without consequences. I think that Civil war with ultra-right wing who assassinated JFK that Civil war had to be extremely short without of WW3 danger. 2.1aa. It was one rich man's (RFK) personal research regarding his brother, but report was received by almost President. Who wanted vendetta? 11. Paul, what do you think about the role of Mrs. Paine? Was it all occasional?

0. I am not quite sure (it's my mistake, excuse me) Walker believed that LHO was used by RFK and then Walker decided to use LHO against JFK. It's a creative theory and this theory must be taken into account. But there is IMHO several weak points: A. US elites did their best to control all political movements in USA. The time of inner political assassinations for solving inner elite's problems passed. For eхample, in March 1964, Supreme Soviet presidium chairman Leonid Brezhnev began discussing Khrushchev's removal with his colleagues. Although soviet conspirators discussed the option of Khrushchev's assassination, but it was rejected because the truth can be revealed sooner or later. I don't think that US was worse than the Soviet Union in this matter. That's why I put the inner conspiracy theory in the second place. Walker was a US patriot. Kennedy was a US patriot and Walker knew that. And they were both against Communistic Cuba (-> 6.) And LHO was at that time a persuasive candidate for the role of communist spy. Nuclear danger was more significant than race question. B. Why should Walker assume LHO was used by RFK? C. Why did Walker decide to assault JFK instead of RFK? 1. Thank you for explaining the practice of weapons purchasing in Texas 1963. 2. IMHO any communist activity is a warning flag. LHO founded FPCC branch with one member. Paine's father founded Trotsky social club with two members. Who can be sure that he did it 'just for fun'? Every political activity is a elites activity for electorate accumulation or Intelligence activity. Otherwise it's viral activity of foreign elites. These covers 95% of cases. It's not a good idea let everyone know how successful was foreign conspiracy. First of all it's a question of National Security. This document said that CIA still investigated foreign conspiracy in 1967. Therefore WC had no enough information to exclude foreign conspiracy. The main WC task was to calm the public. And investigation continued in many ways. Gus Russo wrote: "RFK contacted a lifelong friend of the Kennedy family, then working in Britain's intelligence agency, known as MI6. The friendship dated back to the days when Papa Joe Kennedy was the US Ambassador to England. The MI6 agent contacted two French intelligence operatives who proceeded to conduct, over a three year period, a quiet investigation that involved hundreds of interviews in the United States. One agent was the head of the French Secret Service, Andre Ducret. The second was known only as "Philippe". Over the years, Ducret and Philippe hired men to infiltrate the Texas oil industry, the CIA, and Cuban mercenary groups in Florida. Their report, replete with innuendo about Lyndon Johnson and right-wing Texas oil barons, was delivered to Bobby Kennedy only months before his own assassination in June of 1968." That was a bomb. In other words that was a foreign sedition (conspiracy?) against LBJ. Or was that report a foreign conspiracy against RFK? Could there be a theory of conspiracy against the United States in general?

Paul, thanks a lot for interesting discussion. I appreciate your help. I realized that you have a strong convenience in your arguments. IMHO I was little misunderstood at some moments. 0. You provided link to the Walker letter dated 26 September 1962. It was on the eve of Cuban crisis and at that time Kennedy was ready to nuke Communists without any doubt. I'm not sure Walker was believed that LHO was used by RFK and then walker decided to use LHO against JFK. 1. Probably I misunderstood this "The U.S. District Court held that Oswald had used fictitious names when purchasing the weapons, in violation of the Federal Firearms Act of 1938, which allowed for immediate seizure and forfeiture of any such illegally obtained weapons." I'm not sure it was strong illegal and I'd appreciate your help for this. But I think it's not normal to purchase weapons that way and that was not well-meaning symptom. 2. Paine's father was a co-founder of communist party. It's no means Paine was communist but he possibly had direct connections. DM was spying for Germany but he was antifascist. Trotsky was a communist but he was assassinated by communist. JFK was antifascist but his father admitted fascists. DM group was opportunistic and they could admire any side according to circumstances and money. DM group was opportunistic and had connections with Communist Elites, European Intelligence Elites and US Elites. That what I mean. And they spoke Russian. Possible that was a CIA regional group for monitoring Russians and nearest. And this group was possible infected by foreign intelligence. DM is the main candidate for this. I agree with your that LHO possibly was inspired by this group. 3. Their psychological processing was not well-meaning symptom. Who could guarantee their testimony is not a psychological processing? 4. At the age of 27 yo DM received a doctor of science degree in international commerce in Belgium in 1938 and then immigrated to the United States in May 1938. Reich was rising. 6. There was connection between the shooting at Walker (an anti-Cuban anti-communist) and the shooting at JFK (an anti-Cuban anti-communist). 7. Yes, I agree. They had to have an alibi. 8. It was better for DM to stay away from LHO. It was expected. 'Moor has done his job'. 9. Yes, I agree. Possible DM (directly or indirectly) let Walker know who had a smoking gun.

Paul, you give a lot of interesting and particular information to discuss. I'm not exclude Walker at all but I think he was far from playing dangerous games with Kennedy clan. I offer the following explanation. In January 1963 (2 month after Cuban Missile Crisis) LHO booked a revolver under the name Hidell and that was illegal. All that was up to this point was a preface. At this moment I could say that Mohrenschildt, Paine & Co was a group associated with non-Soviet Communist elites and European Intelligence elites. And that group had contacts with US elites. It was great achievement. I am far from thinking that 'mountain gave birth to a mouse'. Tactically it's allowable at the first sight that Mohrenschildt group wanted Walker life. But strategically it's better to make an alive ideological scarecrow from Walker and not a hero posthumously. In addition to all Mohrenschildt was 'spying for Germans' and Walker had a conflict with officials. It was very strange background to assassinate Walker and to get an inappropriate risk at whole Mohrenschildt group. I'm close to theory that the main goal of the attack on Walker was to prepare evidences damning LHO and to take LHO 'on the hook'. And that was reliably and precisely well done as far as possible and at minimal risk. Walker survived the assault and possible he should to survive. LHO was ready for next job but all roads led to the Mohrenschildt group. So they need another group to be associated with LHO. And Banister taken the bait. In addition LHO activated communications with Soviet and Cuban embassies.

Hi, Paul! George de Mohrenschildt is a very interesting person. I'm not sure he was a German spy. It's the first thing for me that alerts. I'm not sure he committed suicide. I'm not sure about his book. IMHO he possible was the key person in conspiracy and he was investigated not enough.

Paul, I agree with most of your words. I have one question at "Walker and the right-wing in Dallas really killed JFK". After Cuban Missile Crisis passed in 1962 Fidel still had a USSR support and 2000 Soviet soldiers on Cuba. And JFK had a direct line with Khrushchev and JFK was a guarantor of peace. Who really had a plan to start new Cuban crisis and get some nukes from USSR? I'm not sure there were Walker and the right-wing. In that case it's no reason to silent the truth so many years. Occam's razor: the fewest assumption to explain Cuban crisis, JFK and RFK assassination all together is the foreign conspiracy. William, the most interesting for me is number 4. I'm sure 'Lev Trotsky' was a Austrian-German project at the start. Soviets never have a real control of communist movement in capitalist countries. Because capitalist countries had a fake communist parties.

David, as Larry mentioned the start of Soviet Moon program was not lucky as it was expected so the extra resources needed. It was a matter of priorities. Smth had to be dropped. It was Moon program because it was largely propaganda project and US landed first. Defense in any case was the 1st priority. Space program was connected with Defense and was the 2nd priority. Moon program was the 3rd priority. I like this explanation: USSR have been programmed by EU to compete with USA. USA and USSR spent a great resources on cutting-edge research. EU needed a time for re-organisation and now we see the result of this. After EU re-organized the USSR was broken apart.

1-4. The political assassination is more probable in Latin American countries not USA. USA have an extensive network of Intelligence with competitive environment thats decreases the inner conspiracy probability. 5. USSR military inferior to USA in nukes. USSR had at the end of 1963: 5 diesel submarines Zulu each with three 10 kT nuke missiles 150 km range; 1 diesel submarine Juliett with four 200 kT nuke missiles 500 km range; 23 diesel submarines Golf each with three 1 MT nuke missiles 600 km range; 8 atomic submarines Hotel each with three 1 MT nuke missiles 600 km range; 5 atomic submarines Echo-I with six 200 kT nuke missiles 500 km range; 4 atomic submarines Echo-II with eight 20 kT nuke missiles 300 km range; Hundreds of strategic bombers with hydrogen bombs 122 intercontinental ballistic missiles 1% of these was enough to ruin top 10 US cities. 9'11 shows that it's easy to start the war if you have a suspicion.

David, I agree with you that LHO had a very little probability to shot JFK if LHO planed to do it alone. LHO had to know the right time and LHO had to have opportunity to prepare the nest and the rifle and LHO had to have a fortune. The only case was that LHO decided to play a lottery and took the rifle to shot JFK in the suitable circumstances. But we know problems: paraffin test, bullet clip, downed rifle-scope, changing testimonies, etc. Each problem apart slightly reduces the probability that LHO was guilty according to WCR. But all together they say LHO was not guilty with more than 90% probability. It's the main road to consider. My approach is: if we are hesitating to make a definite conclusion we have to speak about probabilities. [Off-topic] Obvious answer: money lack. The arms race was already started. USSR was able to compete with USA only in overloaded mode.

This is a continuation of discussion with David Josephs in http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354&page=144 I named topic 'Provocation of nuclear conflict between the US and the USSR was a motif' because it was one of the possible motives and it's interesting to discuss this theory (DEG-hypothesis). David, I read your article. You made good job. I agree with many arguments. I'l write my questions in next post. Let's continue the discussion of Conspiracy version. Consider LHO was a patsy as he said. 1. Were FBI-CIA (all US Intelligence) and Conspirators the same party or the opposite sides? There are 3 cases: a. FBI-CIA and Conspirators were opposite sides; b. FBI-CIA and Conspirators were opposite sides but Conspirators had their minor agents in FBI-CIA (Gus Russo said it was very possible for other Intelligence to have an agent in US Intelligence); c. FBI-CIA was а Conspirator. Or FBI-CIA had inner conspiracy without any influence of foreign country. a + b is more than 60% probability. Very often the other country supports the conspirators. Perhaps for USA we shall assume a + b is more than 90% probability. Therefore, first of all we have to investigate the most probable a + b. 2. Was it an accident that FBI-CIA chose LHO a suspect or was it provoked by Conspirators? Only at first sight 50/50. But LHO in less than hour became the FBI-CIA main suspect with a communist background. This FBI-CIA choice was not an accident with 95% probability because it was very short time to analyze the background of all persons at TSBD and to choose LHO. To force this choice Conspirators shot a policeman. LHO was a patsy and LHO not shot Tippit. I don't think LHO paraffin test is appropriate revolver shots. 90% * 95% = 85% probability the choice was forced by Conspirators. If the choice was not provoked than it's 5% probability FBI-CIA wanted to get a nuke on its head because JFK was a guarantor of peace. Maybe FBI-CIA wanted to take seats at the dock at The Hague Court. But FBI-CIA was not stupid and FBI-CIA know Sun Tzu. After the nuclear war USA should lost their top position in the world. Obviously it was not reasonably for USA and FBI-CIA. It is the last thing I could believe that CIA wanted USA lost the world top position. But I can't exclude this thus I leave 5%. 3. When had CIA to choose Oswald a suspect and then a patsy? 85% probability it was on Nov 22 because FBI-CIA was not a Conspirator and this choice was forced by Conspirators. That's why reports dated Nov 22 are the most truthful instead of others. CIA realized that main suspect was a patsy and decided to make him patsy too on Nov 23 or at the end of Nov 22. 4. When had Conspirators chose Oswald a patsy? Much earlier than on Nov 22 and it's 99% probability because Conspirators was ready. It was not an improvisation. LHO was chosen by Conspirators beforehand. So Conspirators had a lot of time to prepare a patsy. Conspirators started that work and FBI-CIA was forced to continue and to finish. 5. What was happened on Nov 24? Hypothesis: FBI-CIA detected Trojan Horse and erased LHO. FBI-CIA changed the scenario being imposed on. FBI-CIA already got enough information from LHO and realized that LHO was a patsy. But it was too late to release LHO. Ruby explained it allegorically. Conspirators had to react immediately to repair the broken scenario and possible did it that way: a. http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62258#relPageId=26&tab=page; b. http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62258#relPageId=30&tab=page; c. http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62258#relPageId=54&tab=page. I think the additional records could exist. (upd -> go to the list) 6. Why didn't FBI-CIA believe LHO was loner? Why was FBI-CIA not Conspirator? CIA made a detail defector investigation http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=109805&search=Draft_Study#relPageId=5&tab=page in 196x-1967. FBI-CIA had 2 versions. Public version with LHO loner and a secret version with LHO a patsy. If LHO was a loner there was no obvious need to make that investigation 3-4 years later. If CIA was Conspirator there was no obvious need to make that investigation 3-4 years later.

David, I read your article. I agree with many arguments. Let's continue the discussion of Conspiracy version. Let's talk in terms of probabilities. 1. Were Official Investigators (OI: CIA, FBI, Police, ...) & Conspirators the same party or on the opposite sides? There are 3 cases: a. CIA and Conspirators were opposite sides; b. CIA and Conspirators were opposite sides but Conspirators had their minor agents among OI; (Gus Russo said it was very possible for other Intelligence to have an agent in US Intelligence) c. Somebody among OI was а main Conspirator (often talk about CIA). a + b is more 60% probability. In the history of USA - more 90% probability. Very often the other country supports the conspirators. Therefore, first of all we have to investigate the most probable 90% a + b. 2. Who chose Oswald a patsy? CIA only or CIA & Conspirators? CIA chose LHO a patsy. Maybe both. 3. Was that CIA choice an accident or was it provoked by Conspirators? Only at first sight 50/50. But LHO in less than hour became the CIA main suspect with a communist background. This CIA choice was not an accident with 95% probability because it was very short time to analyze the background of all persons at TSBD and to choose LHO. To force this choice Conspirators shot a policeman. LHO was a patsy and LHO not shot Tippit. I don't think LHO paraffin test is appropriate revolver shots. 90% * 95% = 85% probability the choice was forced by Conspirators. 5% probability CIA wanted to get a nuke on its head because JFK was a guarantor of peace. Maybe CIA wanted to take seats at the dock at The Hague Court. But CIA was not stupid and CIA know Sun Tzu. After the nuclear war USA should lost their top position in the world. Obviously it was not reasonably for USA and CIA. It is the last thing I could believe that CIA wanted USA lost the world top position. 4. When had CIA to choose Oswald a patsy? 85% probability it was on Nov 22-23 because CIA was not a Conspirator and this choice was forced by Conspirators. That's why reports dated Nov 22 are the most truthful instead of others. 5. When had Conspirators chose Oswald a patsy? Much earlier than on Nov 22 - 99% probability. Because Conspirators was ready. It was not an improvisation. LHO was chosen by Conspirators beforehand. So Conspirators had a lot of time to prepare a patsy. Conspirators started this work and CIA was forced to continue and to finish. 6. What was happened on Nov 24? Hypothesis: CIA detected Trojan Horse and erased LHO. CIA changed the scenario being imposed on. CIA already got enough information from LHO. But it was to late to release LHO. Ruby explained it allegorically. Conspirators had to react immediately to repair the broken scenario. 7. Why didn't CIA believe LHO was loner? Why was CIA not Conspirator? CIA made a detail defector investigation http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=109805&search=Draft_Study#relPageId=5&tab=page in 1963-1967. CIA had 2 versions. Public version with LHO loner and a secret version with LHO a patsy. I started a new topic to continue this discussion - http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22009

David, thanks a lot for your discussion. If we talk about the conspiracy, we have to take into account the following: 1. LHO work at TSBD was not a random accident. (If not why was LHO shot by Ruby?) 2. LHO was involved in conspiracy. At least his role was to be a patsy. (If not why was LHO shot by Ruby?) 3. Patsy was not supposed to have an alibi at the time of the shooting at JFK. 4. Therefore, the conspirators provided LHO isolation from eyewitnesses at the time of the shooting. 5. Therefore, no one saw LHO at 11:50 till 12:31 and LHO was not PM. Almost no one saw LHO. 6. Almost immediately after shots LHO was considered a main suspect among all TSBD workers (more than 70 persons). 7. CIA had not control LHO. Otherwise LHO had to be killed much earlier as a result of the chase. Hypothesis Нow could the conspirators to isolate LHO without LHO's suspicion? Maybe it was a meeting with a friend. LHO could say on interrogation that he had meeting with a 'Communist comrade' at 12:00 till 12:30. That was LHO alibi. And the rest 90% of LHO interrogation was about that 'Communist comrade'. Then LHO was asked to shut up. So we have no records of that interrogation. Who was Johnson - http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62258#relPageId=18&tab=page? Why did Ruby shot LHO? Because LHO was a patsy and CIA didn't want anybody to come back to trial for LHO with LHO's alibi. It was better to kill LHO and got discussion that maybe CIA assassinated JFK rather than to let LHO talk and got discussion about nuclear war against USSR. Why we should not exclude the nuclear war against USSR as a main motif? A. Because JFK solved Cuban Missile Crisis and established a warm relationship with Soviet leader. A direct phone line was established between US and Soviet leaders to prevent any nuclear crisis and any misunderstanding in the future. B. Because USA became more powerful after WWII and Europe wanted to restrain it. C. Because Europe began to provoke http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62258#relPageId=26&tab=page D. Because RFK was also involved in solution of Cuban crisis and RFK was also assassinated. E. Because CIA was searching the hand of Europe http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=109805&search=Draft_Study#relPageId=5&tab=page F. Because Cuban Missile Crisis started in Turkey and probably was also a European provocation. G. Because Gus Russo said smth about European capabilities http://www.jfk-online.com/farewellrusso.html It's a theme for a new topic.

Always a pleasure Vitali btw - nothing in the WC report can be used to illustrate anything related to the crimes committed... the Evidence IS the Conspiracy as you will continue to find out. All we can do with it is to show how the conspiracy worked, not the killings and resulting investigation... when we stop trying to connect the evidence to the crime and rather to the ensuing cover-up, it begins to make sense very quickly. From all the images I've looked at it appears to me that the sleeve is rolled up, that there is a watch on his right hand (which usually means this person was left handed, but not necessarily) Let's PLEASE remember that everyone who wrote notes from the interrogatiopn states that he said he went home, changed his shirt and britches, put them in his drawers as laundry and left. The Button-down Briarloom shirt and the slacks were found in the dresser and were inventoried by the DPD... (whether the button-down could have easily been folded up at the sleeves is unknown... but it seems possible. The shirt in this image, if Oswald, does not need to match the arrest shirt for good reason... it's not the same. (Case in point - Bledsoe describes the torn buttons and elbow of the arrest shirt on a bus he supposedly took before he went home... not possible. Either he was never on the bus and Bledsoe was told what to say, or he was and she was also told what to say about that shirt.... As you can see, the arrest shirt is not button down And here is the shirt and pants in the inventory... yet after the numbered 455 items.... If the WC report is falsification why is there problem with nitrates on LHO hands and not on his face and why is there problem with Tippit bullets? Also there is a problem with the bullets holder out of the rifle. There are many questions need to be answered. May be a lot of people was involved in WC falsification and only some of them did their job truthfully.

David, thank you for detail explanation. I have two controversial versions. One version is in accordance with report. And another is not. I have not yet decided how much truth in the report of WC. Now I become more and more confident that not a lot. What is your opinion on PM shirt: long or short arms?

Hi, Jon! Yes. It is possible that US Int., EU Int. and SU Int. began monitoring Oswald in 1959. That's why it was very difficult to exploit LHO by any other intelligence. But it is more possible that CIA had no such program for Oswald. CIA was searching persons like Oswald http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=109805&search=Draft_Study#relPageId=5&tab=page

In 1963 it was better for CIA to kill LHO and get discussion that CIA assassinated JFK rather then to keep LHO alive and get discussion to start or not to start nuclear war against USSR. May be Jack Ruby was near the truth when he said "I didn't want Mrs. Kennedy to come back to trial". It mean "I didn't want America to come back to trial for LHO". In this case LHO was not guilty. I'm not sure but it is logical conclusion. It is possible that US Intellegence had a defector program and LHO was involved. It is possible that European Intellegence was also involved in this program. In this case we can say a defector program was started much earlier, possible in 1955-1957. This is interesting http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=109805&search=Draft_Study#relPageId=12&tab=page

Excuse me, Jon. Let me say a few words about possible version. European intelligence started to monitor Oswald in 1959-1962 on his way to USSR or on his way back to USA. And using pro-Communist network they continued to keep the contact in 1962-1963. I think that's why FBI disturbed Oswalds in 1963.

First of all I read that Bellingcat has a reputation of a very dependent source. That's why everybody have to read Bellingcat with glasses. I read new Russian report. It was mentioned above that new Russian report says that it was old BUK rocket model that was produced in USSR. That's why it should belong to Ukrainian Army. The same old rockets should also present in Russian arsenals. I'm not sure the report is accurate. I'm not sure this report is very important. Ukrainian Army used their own BUK that time and the detailed information about this is still not opened. It's sad. I have no confidence what side launch BUK.

Hi, Vanessa! I have one more version. LHO would travel downwards from the 6th floor to the 1st to take his jacket in domino room. But policeman Baker interrupted this plan. Hide and seek in the lunch room was forced improvisation. LHO decided to leave the jacket and went out.

Hi, Paul! In our days it is better to recognize the type of Oswald's mind. He was more romantic and emotional and unstable person rather than materialistic and Nordic. LHO considered himself a Marxist (not Communist) and it was his religion. (Lev Trotsky was a Marxist but Soviets assassinated him.) And LHO disappointed in Soviet Union and in Soviet Communism. So to have deal with such a religious person you have to speak about global super idea - about true Communism in the World. Soviet Communism is not true Communism. Marxism is true Communism. So his faith was restored after he met new comrades. LHO fate was the fate of the ordinary revolutionary involved in terrorism. The most probable version - 'Marxist comrades' was between LHO and the sponsor of assassination. And this sponsor has a strong impact on Marxist groups. Or may be LHO was patsy and was used by comrades. P.S. Smth similar was with Sirhan Sirhan. According to the wiki: "Sirhan changed church denominations several times, joining Baptist and Seventh-day Adventist churches. Then in 1966, he joined the occult organization Ancient Mystical Order of the Rose Cross, commonly known as Rosicrucians." May be it was a religious gasket between Sirhan and the sponsor of RFK assassination.

Thanks for your comment, Evan! For my opinion USA landed Moon (99.9%). Additionally USA wanted to make amazing propaganda materials and also may be wanted to have a reserve plan. So they made deal with Hollywood and now those materials are used for defamation of Apollo mission. Specialists in the USSR had no arguments to suspect a hoax.

Hi, Tomas! It sounds intriguing.

Hi, Jon! How did conspirators hired LHO? What is your version?

I think Oswald answered to most of this questions in his interview in August 1963:

Also LHO had opportunity to wash his face on the second floor or at home and wiped his sweat from his face several times. May be four or five revolver shots produced much more nitrates than three shots from bolt-action rifle. But LHO had no time to clean the revolver nitrates.