Greg Wagner

Sorry... I think that should read Rouge, Michigan (it's the name of a city in MI, as opposed to Michigan being a rogue state

Wasn't there a piece in one of the later The Men Who Killed Kennedy shows about the windshield? If I recall correctly, there was a female witness who viewed the limo at Parkland and a letter from a since dead Ford retiree that worked in the Rogue, Michigan plant's glass shop. Both stated that there was a bullet hole in the windshield and that the hole was smooth on the outside and fragmented around the edges on the inside- thus indicating that the bullet that passed through the windshield was fired from in front of the limo. The piece went on to talk about how the windshield was replaced at the rouge Ford plant. Did anyone see this show? How about the reliability of those witnesses? We seem to have several well informed individuals in this forum; just wondering about opinions on that. When I saw the episode, it certainly seemed plausible. Obviously, a shot coming through the windshield from the front would prove conspiracy.

That would be great Wim. Thanks for the info.

Below are a few interesting links. The first one is a listing and some biographical info of their current board of directors. Ray Hunt obviously sticks out. I also think it's interesting that Crandall is a member of the FAA management advisory committee and on the Pepsico board. Didn't Nixon claim that he was in Dallas on 11/22 attending a Pepsico board meeting that never took place? Does anyone know if Lamar Hunt, who owns the Kansas City Chiefs NFL team and the Columbus Crew MLS soccer team, is one of H.L. Hunt's sons? http://www.halliburton.com/about/board_of_dir.jsp http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2003/3037...ib_profile.html http://www.sullivan-county.com/w/halliburton.htm

Excellent information and it gets to a deeper issue: In what sense is America still a democracy? I'm sure most Americans would tell you that of course America is a democracy. I'm not so sure I would agree. Facism cloaked in the unassailable guise of national security seems closer to the truth these days. And of course when there are these alliances between our executive branch and large corporate interests, but no legislative branch or media to collar this alliance... well, I guess that's where we find ourselves today. In a very dangerous situation. I sometimes think that, for all the belly-aching that right-wingers do about the liberal "cultural elite" in Hollywood, they have actually been a great ally of the movement away from democracy. The political and social involvement that was so much more mainstream prior to the mid 70's has been replaced by the entertainment industry. Movies, TV, sports as an absession for most males (guilty), celebrities, MTV, etc. People are consumed by mass marketed entertainment. Most citizens today have very little interest in politics, social or ideological issues. And the folks in power? Well of course, they love that! Karl Marx said that "Religion is the opiate of the masses." Apparently, he wasn't a sports fan, because religion cannot hold a candle to today's all-encompassing entertainment industry as the "opiate of the masses." Sorry to get off on such a tangent. Excellent job pointing out how obvious a thread (in the form of Halliburton and KBR) runs from the days/issues of the assassination right up to today's occupiers of the throne. Would have been great to hear that publicized during the recent Presidential election.

Hi James- It would be very interesting to know what JG was going to ask him. I agree with your assessment of Novel as a frustrating piece of the puzle to try and get your hands around. With a cast of characters more enigmatic than perhaps any story (non-fiction included) in history, he is one of the most enigmatic. There is so very little info available on him. Any idea how he ultimately ended up in Columbus, Ohio? My understanding is that he was originally headed to Virginia (which would fit with him being Agency). What diverted him?

Tim- I agree. I doubt LBJ & Hoover believed that the communist gov'ts were organizing the protests, but as you said, it suited their cause well to say so. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Novel as the Umbrella Man. Is that just a hunch? It was strange reading the part of that piece that mentioned the Wolfe family. They own the media in Central Ohio (The Columbus Dispatch, a talk radio station, and the local NBC TV affiliate). I met a member of the Columbus sports media recently and after kicking around several sports-related items, he started talking about the heirarchy of the Central Ohio media. His take was that basically, if you are not one of the "Wolfe" people, you are a second-class citizen when it comes to access. And as we all know, the cover-up has known no greater ally than the mainstream American Media. It's so strange (or scary might be a better word) that as someone interested in this case, the more you read, research and discover little things like that, the more it all seems to fit together into one giant, frightening picture. Were JFK and DiSalle simply associated because they were fellow Democrats? Or was there more to it? I met then ex-Governor Rhodes once and actually had about 5 minutes alone with him at the Ohio State Fair in the summer of 1986. It was strictly by chance and I probably would not have recognized him if it weren't for his driver tipping me off. He seemed like a nice, gracious, frail old man. Of course, at that time, I was much younger and I had never heard of Gordon Novel. What I wouldn't give for those 5 minutes alone with him now (if he were still alive, that is).

The following is a quote from Jim Garrison taken from the 1967 Playboy interview: Whatever his motivation, Governor Rhodes of Ohio, to name one, has said that he would allow me to extradite Novel to stand trial on charges arising from the CIA-inspired burglary of the ammunitions bunker in Houma, Louisiana --- but that I would not be allowed under the stipulations of the extradition agreement to question him about the assassination! In other words, it's OK for me to send a man to jail on a burglary rap, but I mustn't upset him by inquiring if he killed the President. I'm all in favor of protecting a defendant's civil rights, but this is straight out of Alice in Wonderland. I was looking for some information about Gov. Rhodes, his background, members of his administration, etc., when I came across the following article: Author, J. Gregory Payne Associate Professor of Organizational & Political Communication at Emerson College (1983); B.A., M.A., Ph.D., University of Illinois; M.P.A., Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University. Why four died in Ohio: Governor Rhodes and his relationship with the FBI April 21, 2003 Ten days after Governor James A. Rhodes assumed office on January 14, 1963, a Cincinnati FBI agent wrote Director J. Edgar Hoover a memo stating: “At this moment he [Rhodes] is busier than a one-armed paper hanger . . . . Consequently, I do not plan to establish contact with him for a few months. We will have no problem with him whatsoever. He is completely controlled by an SAC [special Agent in Charge] contact, and we have full assurances that anything we need will be made available promptly. Our experience proves this assertion.” Why would the FBI assert that the newly-inaugurated governor of Ohio is “completely controlled”? Media sources like Life magazine noted the governor’s alleged ties to organized crime and the Mafia in specific. Gov. Rhodes’ FBI file, obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request, suggests that it may be because of the FBI’s extensive knowledge of Rhodes’ involvement in the numbers rackets in the late 1930’s that the Bureau could count on his cooperation. FBI declassified material suggests that the Bureau’s extensive influence over Governor Rhodes, perhaps due to their knowledge of his ties to the numbers rackets, may have played a role in the Governor’s hard line law and order tactics that led to the deaths of four students at Kent State in 1970. A November 19, 1963 FBI memo, again from a Cincinnati agent to Director Hoover, outlines specific allegations from a Bureau’s confidential informant about Rhodes’ involvement in the numbers racket between 1936-8. The informant, a bagman for local organized crime, gave detailed information about pick ups at a cigar store located between Buttles and Goodale Avenues reportedly owner by Rhodes’ sister. Rhodes purportedly was running the gambling operation. Years ago, a Dispatch reporter told the Free Press that the governor had run a gambling operation in the Short North, called Jimmy’s Place. As Rhodes assumed public office, first as a Columbus School Board member, and later as the Mayor of the city, he began to make overtures to Director Hoover. In a February 1949 letter, Mayor Rhodes invited Hoover to sit on the advisory board of the All-American Newspaper Boys Sports Scholarships organization. Hoover declined. Rhodes thanked him and then invited him to address a banquet for the National Newspaper Boys Association in August of 1949. Hoover again declined. Two years later, Rhodes was again attempting to contact Hoover. On July 27, 1951, Rhodes called the FBI director’s office and refused to speak to Hoover’s assistant L.B. Nichols. When told that the director was in “travel status,” Rhodes explained the important nature of his call. He wanted “to invite the director to attend a celebrity golf tournament, . . . since its benefits were to go to youth organizations and he knew of the director’s interest in youth work.” Nichols declined on behalf of Hoover. Finally, Rhodes persistence paid off. Rhodes and his wife were given a special tour of the FBI building in Washington D.C. on January 19, 1953. “During the tour Mr. Rhodes stated he wanted to say with all possible sincerity that during all these years he has had continued and absolute faith in one government agency ­ the FBI,” reads the 1963 memo. The “completely controlled” memo showed great sympathy to Rhodes’ youthful gambling escapades: “It is understandable that Rhodes has previously said that it was necessary during the Depression and do many things to keep body and soul together and to provide food for existence.” Although the FBI fails to point out that Rhodes came from an affluent family who paid his way through Ohio State University during the Depression. The memo goes on the describe Rhodes in the following manner: “He is a friend of law enforcement and believes in honest, hard-hitting law enforcement. He respects and admires FBI.” Moreover, the agency recommended taking “no further action” against Governor Rhodes and his alleged ties to the gambling racket since, “persons very close to him, such as SAC contact Robert H. Wolfe, Publisher, the Columbus Dispatch, speak very highly of Rhodes and his personal attributes. Wolfe knows Rhodes well and was an active financier of the campaign of Rhodes . . . .” The SAC of the Cincinnati office took special interest in Rhodes’ first election as governor. Incumbent Governor Michael V. Disalle had hired a former FBI agent to investigate and dig up dirt on Rhodes, “We have arranged with friendly newspaper contacts to endeavor to avoid any headline or other prominent mention of the former FBI status of [deleted].” Following Rhodes’ 1962 election, the FBI described the governor-elect in the following terms: “Rhodes is a Bureau friend of long standing. Our first contact of record was in November, 1943.” The memo goes on to record that, “On June 18, 1945, the SAC of Cincinnati transmitted a news clipping from the ‘Columbus Dispatch’ of 6-7-45 indicating that Mayor Rhodes urged the establishment of a Bureau field office at Columbus.” Rhodes is portrayed as very “active and very friendly toward the Bureau.” Later files would not include these early contacts between the FBI and Rhodes. The Bureau does detail one obvious connection between Rhodes and organized crime in Columbus, “One informant stated that the gambling element in Columbus has made a great effort to influence Mayor Rhodes to permit open gambling in the city but without success. In 1949, however, it was noted that the informants alleged that Rhodes did not interfere with the ‘numbers racket’ as apparently he was still interested in the colored vote.” In July of 1963, a memo from the Cincinnati office on the subject of “Communist Speakers on College Campuses” noted that “Governor James A. Rhodes has signed into law legislation authorizing the trustees of any state-operated college or university to bar from using campus facility any person that they wish to bar.” The SAC in charge of the Cincinnati Bureau wrote Hoover on October 9, 1967 to relay a conversation he had with Rhodes three days earlier regarding the civil unrest and riots that had rocked the nation during the summer of 1967. “During the conference, we discussed matters of mutual interest, particularly civil disorders and the high crime rate. The Governor told me that he would extend his full facilities, and he is all for stopping racial discord the moment it starts. He revealed that his plan is to immediately deploy troops and/the state patrol as soon as trouble arises,” the memo states. The Cincinnati SAC concludes, “Our relationship with the Governor is of the highest order and he assured me that we can expect full cooperation from the State of Ohio on any matter of mutual concern.” By the mid-60s, the CIA and the FBI were working together through the National Security Agency (NSA) to spy on radical groups and harass peace organizations. The FBI’s operation was known as COINTELPRO. The CIA’s was Operation CHAOS. In 1967, declassified government documents reveal that CIA Director Richard Helms, Hoover and President Lyndon Johnson believed that the domestic protest movements against the Vietnam War were being orchestrated by the Communist governments in Moscow, Peking, Havana and Hanoi. Governor Rhodes used former SAC Ed Mason as an intermediary in an attempt to meet with Hoover on March 25, 1968. The FBI memo on the matter reads, “He formerly served as mayor of Columbus, Ohio and is a good friend of [deleted] of the ‘Columbus Dispatch.’” The FBI memo said, “SAC, Cincinnati advises that Rhodes has been extremely cooperative.” Surprisingly, “there’s no indication that Governor Rhodes has ever met Mr. Hoover and he has not received an autographed photograph.” Less than year before the tragic shootings at Kent State, the SAC of the Cincinnati Bureau sent Hoover a memo detailing Rhodes’ attitude towards civil unrest: “He personally feels that the Director is the outstanding American and that he is the only person who has consistently opposed those persons who would subvert our government. He feels that the Director’s stated position of dealing firmly with these groups is the only sensible method.” “He [Rhodes] commented on the riots and unrest which have occurred repeatedly and said that some of this might well have been avoided if the Director’s warnings and advice had been followed. In Ohio, he has not hesitated to use the National Guard to deal with these situations and has instructed the Guard to act quickly and firmly. He feels that this is the only way to maintain law and order, and that the maintenance of law and order is the only way our government can survive,” the memo records. On May 4, 1970, Sandra Scheuer, Jeffrey Miller, Allison Krause and William Schroeder were shot dead by the Ohio National Guard at Kent State. Numerous investigative accounts have alleged that the FBI was involved in the burning of the campus ROTC building, which led to the deaths of the students. The SAC in Cincinnati paid a “courtesy call” on Governor Rhodes 18 days after the shootings. Governor Rhodes informed the FBI agent that he intended to keep the Ohio State University campus open, despite what some historians regard as one of the largest student riots in U.S. history. “. . . He [Rhodes] intends to mobilize sufficient members of the Ohio National Guard (ONG) to accomplish this, ‘even if he has to put a guard in every classroom,’” the memo reads. The Governor blamed the unrest on outside agitators and “commented that of the upwards of 100 persons arrested on May 21 and May 22, 1970, only a few were OSU students. . .” the memo notes. The FBI memo cites that of the 78 arrests, 35 were OSU students and two OSU employees, even though the majority of the arrests were made off-campus. “. . . the Governor also referred to the current investigation at Kent State University (KSU) and commented that he felt this would present an excellent opportunity for the Department of Justice, through some detailed statement to the news media after the investigation is completed, to get to the public the true story of campus agitation and to identify the organizers of the violence. The Governor appeared somewhat concerned at the possibility that members of the Ohio National Guard might finally end up being charged with an offense in connection to the shooting of the students at Kent,” the memo stated, “He commented at one point that if the ONG members were indicted in regards to this matter that he felt a million dollars should be spent to defend them, if necessary.” The memo also records for history that, “The Governor commented several times on the close relationship he has enjoyed with the Bureau locally and as a whole.” I guess there is no mystery here. Sounds like he was so infatuated with Hoover and the FBI that surely there had to be very little arm twisting done. Seems like Rhodes would have been more than happy to play ball.

Good question. I have attempted to explain on other threads why Lyndon Johnson and Robert Kennedy took part in the cover up. For example, see: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2310 There have been politicians in the United States that have suggested that if they gained power they would look into the possible cover up. This included Gary Hart and we all know what happened to him. Maybe Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton have made attempts to discover the truth. However, I suspect there is little evidence left that could be used against the originally conspirators. Even if there was, for example, the CIA and FBI files on Lee Harvey Oswald, Carter and Clinton would have had to push very hard to get that information. They would soon have been advised that they were entering dangerous territory. I think it is unlikely that they would not have felt that the issue was not worth upsetting powerful groups like the CIA or the FBI. After all, look what happened to Kennedy when he took on the CIA. In the UK there was an attempt by MI5 to destabilize the government of Harold Wilson. Since Wilson resigned we have had several Labour governments. However, none of them have attempted to investigate what the MI5 got up to during this period. I suspect they have taken the same attitude as Carter and Clinton. After all, as Blair recently found out, sometimes you need the help of the secret services. You are unlikely to get that help if you have been calling for them to be investigated for illegal behaviour. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks to all for your astute observations. And thanks to Shanet and John for the advice on getting set-up on the forum. To date, I have not conducted any independent research, but I do have a couple of ideas I'm working on. Until then, hopefully I can contribute by providing some useful commentary or questions from time to time.

Hello All- I'm new here, so please forgive my inexperience. After reading several threads over the last few weeks, I realize that I am likely less informed on this topic than most of you. But here goes: There is certainly no shortage of angles to approach this from and all are worthwile, important, and must be investigated. But regardless of which theory of the events in DP one subscribes to, the fact that the U.S. Government and the major media in this country refuse address or acknowledge the concerns surrounding an event of this magnitude, one that was a major turning point in our nation's history, to me is the most damning indictment of complicity at the highest levels of Government. Although I would certainly expect nothing else out of "W" or his father, who in my mind must have at least known of the plot given his position and Texas connections, but what about men like Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton? Carter strikes me as a good and decent man who would not participate in such a cover-up. And Clinton, regardless of what you think of him, was a very popular President who admired JFK. And yet they never uttered a peep! What I wouldn't give to have a few beers alone with one of them and pop the question. Or what about someone who would arguably be even more powerful, like a Rob Walton (worth $20 billion), a Bill Gates (worth $60 Billion), or even a George Soros (worth several billion). Do they not care. Or are even they being controlled? My point is, how can Presidents, Senators like Ted Kennedy and John McCain, and captains of industry like Gates, the Walton's, Soros, Buffet (Warren, not Jimmy), Paul Allen, Larry Ellison, etc. all be under someone's control? Sure, some of these guys (or maybe all of them) are political conservatives, but I have to believe that at least a few of them are good men. And frankly, with that kind of wealth and power, it's very frightening to think that someone could be so much more powerful as to intimidate them. Sorry if I'm rambling, but that is a part of this whole deal that is most troubling for me. If my theory of the events in DP are correct (conspiracy spear-headed by right-wing elements of the CIA and Pentagon in conjunction with Big Oil and Defense contractors), then the cover-up is still intact. And that means that the perprtrators have been running the Country ever since, up to and including today. So, to sum up... what the hell?!? Does anyone think that there is a chance that one of the aforementioned (or someone else with the means to speak out and be heard and be considered credible) will ever grow a pair, decide to do right by the Country that allowed them to achieve their great economic or political success, and help in this fight? It's amazing how far the research of private citizens has taken this cause. But I can't help but wonder how much longer the enemy could hold it together if we had a national figure, with credibility and significant economic and/or political power, to step out and lead this cause. Thank you very much for the forum. I really appreciate all of your posts and research. Greg